Optimizing a Melee Warlock/Sorcerer

[Draco4472]

With "Storm King's Thunder" coming out soon, I gave some thought to what character I would play. The storm sorcerer in the SCAG caught my eye. It has some great potential for a melee build at higher levels, and would like to combine that with some of the warlock's features, in particular those of the Pact of the Blade (for obvious reasons) and with the melee cantrips presented in the SCAG. I was thinking choosing either Variant human (and choosing the moderatly armored feat), Drow, or half-elf (with the half-drow variant in the SCAG for the racial spells).

I'd like to hear the playground's thoughts on this.

[Elminster298]

Were you thinking dex or str base melee?

[Rysto]

The SCAG cantrips don't mix particularly well with a Bladelock because then you can't take advantage of Thirsting Blade. Have you considered doing a Tomelock instead and picking up Shillelagh as one of your cantrips? That would allow you to use CHA as your attacking stat. It works best if you can get shield proficiency somehow (maybe v-Human for Moderately Armoured?).

[Sir cryosin]

This is a character concept exactly like what you're looking for. I haven't been able to put into play just yet but what it is is you start sorcerer. why you start sources because you want that con save. After that take 3 levels of Warlock. Why three levels because then you get your pack boon pack of the blade now you have a magical weapon that you want and it's considered magical yay no more resistance. so after you had those three levels in warlock go back to sorcerer and stay in sorcerer. don't worry about getting the warlocks 5th level extra attack you don't need that. what you going to do you're going to spam the living hell out of booming blade or green flame blade. you're going to want to pick the metamagic option quicken spell. The reason why is because you're going to be using your sorcery points to Quicken booming blade or green flame blade then using your warlock spell slots to turn into sorcery points because those spell slots Refresh on a short rest now the spells that you're going to want to pick as a a warlock AR armor of agathis, hex and hellish rebuke.

[Draco4472]

Were you thinking dex or str base melee?

I was thinking Dex, that way I can use the light armor proficiency warlocks have and don't have to use a feat to get heavy armor. In addition, if I choose Drow as my starting race I would get rapier proficiency right off the bat and get a Finesse weapon. Although pact of the blade makes this feature pretty much useless.

[Draco4472]

The SCAG cantrips don't mix particularly well with a Bladelock because then you can't take advantage of Thirsting Blade. Have you considered doing a Tomelock instead and picking up Shillelagh as one of your cantrips? That would allow you to use CHA as your attacking stat. It works best if you can get shield proficiency somehow (maybe v-Human for Moderately Armoured?).

I find that overall the SCAG cantrips would deal more damage then two attacks, and so I'm not too heavily invested in getting thirsting blade at all. And I did consider Variant Human for both medium armor and a shield and Shillelagh tomelock. But I'm buffing Dex. for my AC any way so I may as well get a magic weapon I can summon at will without needing to use a cantrip. I may still choose Variant human and use medium armor and a shield if I go down this route.

[Draco4472]

This is a character concept exactly like what you're looking for. I haven't been able to put into play just yet but what it is is you start sorcerer. why you start sources because you want that con save. After that take 3 levels of Warlock. Why three levels because then you get your pack boon pack of the blade now you have a magical weapon that you want and it's considered magical yay no more resistance. so after you had those three levels in warlock go back to sorcerer and stay in sorcerer. don't worry about getting the warlocks 5th level extra attack you don't need that. what you going to do you're going to spam the living hell out of booming blade or green flame blade. you're going to want to pick the metamagic option quicken spell. The reason why is because you're going to be using your sorcery points to Quicken booming blade or green flame blade then using your warlock spell slots to turn into sorcery points because those spell slots Refresh on a short rest now the spells that you're going to want to pick as a a warlock AR armor of agathis, hex and hellish rebuke.

Interesting build. However, I am unfamiliar with how Warlock spell-slots work when having multiclassed and still having the regen of spell slots on a short rest. But otherwise, I like this combination. I was thinking of getting the invocations "Fiendish Vigor" and "Armor of Shadows" which would allow me to cast False Life and Mage armor at will, allowing me to tank a bit more. In addition, I plan on choosing the SCAG's Storm sorcerer to take advantage of its "Tempestuous Magic" feature, which allows me to fly 10ft without provoking an opportunity attack as a bonus action, after casting a spell of 1st level or higher. If I need to run, I can spam that at-will False life infinity, as it still counts as casting a spell that is higher then 1st level. Otherwise, It allows me to hit and run with my plentiful spell slots as a result of taking sorcerer levels. I think I want to start with levels in Warlock first however.

[Corran]

I was thinking Dex, that way I can use the light armor proficiency warlocks have and don't have to use a feat to get heavy armor. In addition, if I choose Drow as my starting race I would get rapier proficiency right off the bat and get a Finesse weapon. Although pact of the blade makes this feature pretty much useless.
Dex build means that you can just forgo taking the extra attack feature. Once you find a way to use the scag weapons catrips efficiently, which isn't that hard, you will almost never need to take the attack action, and thus having extra attack will only add some very situational value (which a dex build cannot take advantage of that much).

As far as warlock levels go, I would probably take just one, ust for armor of agathys. And I would take that warlock level late enough so that I would have high level spell slots to use AoA efficiently. Adding more warlock levels on a sorcerer base, wont do you much good, as I believe that everything else some more warlock levels will offer do not justify delaying your spell progression. Going with a heavy warlock build instead is totally doable, but then there would be no point to add any sorcerer levels.

Out of all the sorcerer origins, storm is the one I think has the least value on a melee build. But since it is for fluff reasons I wont try to disuade you.

Since you are thinking of a dex build, with mediocre AC and low hp (due t sorcerer), I would suggest skirmishing tactics. For this, you should either plan on taking mobile, or take a rogue 2 dip (both options allow you to use BB more efficiently, so more damage, AND help with your survivability). Or even do both. Your big prize as spells go, will be greater invisibility (works even better if you do take 2 levels in rogue). Twinned and quickened spell, are good choices for metamagic.

I would probably do something like sorcerer1 --> rogue 1 --> sorcerer7 --> rogue2 --> sorcerer9 --> warlock1 --> sorcerer17.

[Belac93]

Go Warlock 3, take agonizing blast (if human) or armour of shadows (if not) and fiendish vigour, be either the variant human with medium armour, or half-drow.

For your pact, either pact of the blade for a greatsword, or pact of the tome for shillelagh. Pact of the blade is higher damage, but tome makes you less MAD.

Use booming blade all the time.

[Sir cryosin]

A warlock mc spell slots. Act like if your just a what ever lv warlock you are so if you are a warlock lv3 and a sorcerer lv6 you have the spell slots of a warlock lv3 and then the spell slots of a sorcerer lv6 I do believe.

[Draco4472]

Dex build means that you can just forgo taking the extra attack feature. Once you find a way to use the scag weapons catrips efficiently, which isn't that hard, you will almost never need to take the attack action, and thus having extra attack will only add some very situational value (which a dex build cannot take advantage of that much).

As far as warlock levels go, I would probably take just one, ust for armor of agathys. And I would take that warlock level late enough so that I would have high level spell slots to use AoA efficiently. Adding more warlock levels on a sorcerer base, wont do you much good, as I believe that everything else some more warlock levels will offer do not justify delaying your spell progression. Going with a heavy warlock build instead is totally doable, but then there would be no point to add any sorcerer levels.

Out of all the sorcerer origins, storm is the one I think has the least value on a melee build. But since it is for fluff reasons I wont try to disuade you.

Since you are thinking of a dex build, with mediocre AC and low hp (due t sorcerer), I would suggest skirmishing tactics. For this, you should either plan on taking mobile, or take a rogue 2 dip (both options allow you to use BB more efficiently, so more damage, AND help with your survivability). Or even do both. Your big prize as spells go, will be greater invisibility (works even better if you do take 2 levels in rogue). Twinned and quickened spell, are good choices for metamagic.

I would probably do something like sorcerer1 --> rogue 1 --> sorcerer7 --> rogue2 --> sorcerer9 --> warlock1 --> sorcerer17.

The SCAG cantrips can be used with either a Str. or Dex. build. I chose Dex. so that I wouldn't need to bother with spending a feat to get heavy armor, especially since warlocks get light armor proficiency and have the ability to cast "mage armor" at with the "Armor of Shadows" Invocation.

As for my Storm sorcerer choice, the "Heart of the Storm" and "Storm's Fury" features seem viable for a melee build, and I will be more sorcerer then warlock. But I can see what value the other two have for a melee build. I'll be starting as warlock and probably start taking sorcerer levels after I get Pact of the Blade. Rogue levels seems like a good idea, but too much of an impact on my spell levels, so I'll probably take the Mobile feat instead.

[Draco4472]

A warlock mc spell slots. Act like if your just a what ever lv warlock you are so if you are a warlock lv3 and a sorcerer lv6 you have the spell slots of a warlock lv3 and then the spell slots of a sorcerer lv6 I do believe.

Having looked in the book it now seems that way.

"If you have both the Spellcasting class feature and the Pact Magic class feature from the warlock class, you can use the spell slots you gain from the Pact Magic feature to cast spells you know or have prepared from classes with the Spellcasting class feature, and you can use the spell slots you gain from the Spellcasting class feature to cast warlock spells you know."
-5e Player's Handbook, page 164

I was under the impression that having levels in warlock and sorcerer would give me the spell slots and spell levels of whatever level caster I would be at the time, as shown on the table on page 165.

[Draco4472]

Go Warlock 3, take agonizing blast (if human) or armour of shadows (if not) and fiendish vigour, be either the variant human with medium armour, or half-drow.

For your pact, either pact of the blade for a greatsword, or pact of the tome for shillelagh. Pact of the blade is higher damage, but tome makes you less MAD.

Use booming blade all the time.

I'm going to me MAD unfortunately. My build is going to be melee oriented and Dex. based to better use the light and medium armor. So, no greatsword for this 8 strength character.

And yes, booming blade all the time.

[Draco4472]

Thanks to everyone who's posted so far. This build is defiantly going to see some use when Storm King's Thunder is released.

[Citan]

Since you are thinking of a dex build, with mediocre AC and low hp (due t sorcerer), I would suggest skirmishing tactics. For this, you should either plan on taking mobile, or take a rogue 2 dip (both options allow you to use BB more efficiently, so more damage, AND help with your survivability). Or even do both. Your big prize as spells go, will be greater invisibility (works even better if you do take 2 levels in rogue). Twinned and quickened spell, are good choices for metamagic.

I really don't see how you can say that a DEX-based build with access to free Mage Armor would be "mediocre AC".
As soon as level 2, he can be AC 16 which is equal to starting heavy armor IIRC. And he will be probably bumping DEX at least to 18, making AC 17. Pretty decent for a caster. Agreed on low hit points though.

The SCAG cantrips can be used with either a Str. or Dex. build. I chose Dex. so that I wouldn't need to bother with spending a feat to get heavy armor, especially since warlocks get light armor proficiency and have the ability to cast "mage armor" at with the "Armor of Shadows" Invocation.

As for my Storm sorcerer choice, the "Heart of the Storm" and "Storm's Fury" features seem viable for a melee build, and I will be more sorcerer then warlock. But I can see what value the other two have for a melee build. I'll be starting as warlock and probably start taking sorcerer levels after I get Pact of the Blade. Rogue levels seems like a good idea, but too much of an impact on my spell levels, so I'll probably take the Mobile feat instead.
Depending on how you want to use your spell slots, you may want to start Sorcerer instead to get proficiency in CON saving throws. You won't get light armor proficiency but since you get Mage Armor... ;)

[NNescio]

I really don't see how you can say that a DEX-based build with access to free Mage Armor would be "mediocre AC".
As soon as level 2, he can be AC 16 which is equal to starting heavy armor IIRC. And he will be probably bumping DEX at least to 18, making AC 17. Pretty decent for a caster. Agreed on low hit points though.

Depending on how you want to use your spell slots, you may want to start Sorcerer instead to get proficiency in CON saving throws. You won't get light armor proficiency but since you get Mage Armor... ;)

Not sure if Armor of Shadows is a good choice. It only offers +1AC over studded leather at the cost of one invocation known, and can potentially be dispelled.

But yeah, Warlock belongs to the medium AC faction, along with any of the non-shield-using (and non-bladesinging) casters.

[Citan]

Not sure if Armor of Shadows is a good choice. It only offers +1AC over studded leather at the cost of one invocation known, and can potentially be dispelled.

But yeah, Warlock belongs to the medium AC faction, along with any of the non-shield-using (and non-bladesinging) casters.
Well, I'd say it's a pretty good choice for the start, because it's a pretty good AC bump over light armor.

Considering that OP will probably max his DEX, I agree though that it is not necessarily the best choice overall over the course of his career. That's why for Warlocks I usually swap that Invocation for another at later level when DEX is maxed, because of what you said. ;)
Still, especially for a multiclass, Mage Armor will probably stay competitive until he's character level 10 or so. Seems a pretty solid investment. With that said...

For a multiclass that won't go past Warlock 3, you could also just take either Moderately Armored feat and stick with that (=don't bump DEX), or take Magic Initiate feat to free the Invocation slot for a utility/offensive one.

If OP goes at least Warlock 5 though and favor weapon, shouldn't be a problem. Start Sorcerer 1, go Warlock 3, then build Sorcerer (improving DEX on the go), then grab Warlock 4 to max DEX and Warlock 5 to swap Invocation at the same time you choose a new third one.