CR after negative levels.

[gadren]

So, I'm planning out a Pathfinder adventure (that also uses D&D 3.5 content) where the party is looking for the remains of Nicholas Rosis, a necromancer. The end boss is the beholder that slew Nick, and still has 4 permanent negative levels (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/special-abilities#TOC-Energy-Drain-and-Negative-Levels) from the battle (but has otherwise fully healed up in the meantime). UPDATE: The Beholder also has had its central antimagic eye blinded and rendered useless.

A beholder is normally CR 13. I know there are no printed rules for this, but what would you say its CR is with the permanent negative levels and the loss of its antimagic eye? CR 10 seem fair?

Edit: NOTE: Most of its power is from it's eye rays, whose caster level would be lowered by 4 by the negative levels.

[Inevitability]

A beholder's power comes from its supernatural abilities and maneuverability, not its HP and saves. I'd lower it to CR 12, but definitely not below that.

[gadren]

A beholder's power comes from its supernatural abilities and maneuverability, not its HP and saves. I'd lower it to CR 12, but definitely not below that.

Most of its power is from it's eye rays, whose caster level would be lowered by 4 by negative levels.

[Thurbane]

Reverse engineering CR increase from added Aberration HD (1 per 4 HD), CR 12 sounds about right.

As Dire Stirge points out, aside from (slightly) lowered HP, saves, BAB etc. there shouldn't be a big enough impact to a Beholder to justify much more than a -1 CR.

[Geddy2112]

Unfortunately, there are no rules for this. The closest I could find was the vampire spawn, repeatedly drained template here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/vampire-spawn-repeatedly-drained-cr-1) Which is a -1 CR and is a -2HP for each level it has, with a slight bonus. Against a -4 to all rolls, and a -20 to HP, I would see this as a minimum of a -3 CR to a CR10. However, the beholder is dangerous not because of its HP, so probably only -1 here.

Just to be sure, these negative levels are permanent(or at least in a way the beholder can't fix) and will be in play when the party gets there? Also, what is the party level?

The Beholder is going to have much lower HP than usual, and even the eye attacks will be pretty weak with a -4 penalty and the lower spellcasting level. If it drops its antimagic field, it is as good as dead unless it gets lucky and goes first+a good first round volley. Even then, it would be seriously rare to stop 3 party members dead, even in a party of 4 this might not save the beholder.

Having lost the HP, a good hit from a mid level melee brute could end it, or leave it very close to dead. This could happen even in the case of the anitmagic field being up. If it drops the field, the penalty to saves makes it damn easy caster bait.

I would judge each negative level in this case to be one half CR, dropping the CR to 12; add some charmed mooks as low level buffer to juice the CR if needed. Solo bosses always have the problem of being a 1 sided fight-either the party kills it easy or dies horribly. Have your necromancer travel with mooks, that were charmed and turned against el beholder.

[Big Fau]

Most of its power is from it's eye rays, whose caster level would be lowered by 4 by negative levels.

Even with that, the eye rays are still a huge threat. A couple of their effects are weakened, but it still has enough rays/round to more than cripple a party.

[Thurbane]

I might be missing something here, but I don't see how permanent level drain/HD loss affects the CL of a Beholder's eye rays? Unless PF handles things differently than 3.5?

The beholder has a static CL 13, not dependant on HD (unlike like some creatures whose CL is directly linked to their HD, like Duergar). Once level drain becomes permanent, the temporary penalties disappear.

Am I missing something?

[gadren]

I might be missing something here, but I don't see how permanent level drain/HD loss affects the CL of a Beholder's eye rays? Unless PF handles things differently than 3.5?

The beholder has a static CL 13, not dependant on HD (unlike like some creatures whose CL is directly linked to their HD, like Duergar). Once level drain becomes permanent, the temporary penalties disappear.

Am I missing something?

Pathfinder does handle it differently, as indicated by the handy link I included I the original post.

I guess you could argue that it wouldn't effect the caster level of a beholder, but for this I am explicitly applying it to the beholder's caster level, meaning things like finger of death and disintegrate do much less damage.

[Psyren]

Negative levels (both types) do reduce CL in Pathfinder:

"The creature is also treated as one level lower for the purpose of level-dependent variables (such as spellcasting) for each negative level possessed."

The "such as" makes it inclusive, allowing it to apply to SLAs, Su etc.

As far as reducing the CR, I agree with the folks saying "yes, but not by a whole lot." The abilities themselves are still a problem (particularly the central cone) even with reduced punch.

[Thurbane]

So does that mean in Pathfinder if you are a caster (say, a Wizard) and suffer permanent level drain, you CL is reduced twice? Once for the status of level drain, and once for losing actual class levels?

I'm honestly confused.

[gadren]

So does that mean in Pathfinder if you are a caster (say, a Wizard) and suffer permanent level drain, you CL is reduced twice? Once for the status of level drain, and once for losing actual class levels?

I'm honestly confused.

There is no level drain in Pathfinder. It became "permanent negative levels". Permanent negative levels act just like temporary negative levels, just they don't go away until you find a way to remove them. There is no way to lose a class level in Pathfinder other than using the retraining rules (if the GM allows them).

[Psyren]

So does that mean in Pathfinder if you are a caster (say, a Wizard) and suffer permanent level drain, you CL is reduced twice? Once for the status of level drain, and once for losing actual class levels?

I'm honestly confused.

There is no level loss in Pathfinder. "Permanent" negative levels can be healed just like temporary ones can, it's just harder and generally requires powerful magic.

Level loss in 3.5 is primarily used for cheesy purposes, such as draining away unwanted RHD to replace with more valuable class levels, draining and then restoring lost levels to fund XP costs (also removed in Pathfinder), or to use unwanted levels to qualify for a prerequisite and then siphon off the bloat to make room for something more desirable.

[gadren]

As for the Beholder, what if in addition the 4 negative levels, its central anti-magic eye way "blinded" and rendered useless?

[Psyren]

As for the Beholder, what if in addition the 4 negative levels, its central anti-magic eye way "blinded" and rendered useless?

That would definitely drop the CR even further. I forget what the other rays do though so uncertain how much.

Note also that, rather than outright disable the AMF eye, you could have it be immature in some way - say, casting within the cone requires a concentration check or caster level check (other note: in PF these are similar). You could even have a failed check impede the attempted spell's magic rather than negating it outright.

[gadren]

That would definitely drop the CR even further. I forget what the other rays do though so uncertain how much.

Note also that, rather than outright disable the AMF eye, you could have it be immature in some way - say, casting within the cone requires a concentration check or caster level check (other note: in PF these are similar). You could even have a failed check impede the attempted spell's magic rather than negating it outright.

A beholder's rays cast Charm Monster, Charm Person, Disintegrate, Fear, Finger of Death (PF version deals 10 damage per caster level instead of outright killing), Flesh to Stone, Inflict Moderate Wounds, Sleep, Slow, and Telekinesis. It can use 3 rays per round, and can't use the same ray twice in the same round.

[Thurbane]

There is no level drain in Pathfinder. It became "permanent negative levels". Permanent negative levels act just like temporary negative levels, just they don't go away until you find a way to remove them. There is no way to lose a class level in Pathfinder other than using the retraining rules (if the GM allows them).

There is no level loss in Pathfinder. "Permanent" negative levels can be healed just like temporary ones can, it's just harder and generally requires powerful magic.

Level loss in 3.5 is primarily used for cheesy purposes, such as draining away unwanted RHD to replace with more valuable class levels, draining and then restoring lost levels to fund XP costs (also removed in Pathfinder), or to use unwanted levels to qualify for a prerequisite and then siphon off the bloat to make room for something more desirable.

Thanks both for the clarification, that's cleared it up nicely!

[Zanos]

A beholder's rays cast Charm Monster, Charm Person, Disintegrate, Fear, Finger of Death (PF version deals 10 damage per caster level instead of outright killing), Flesh to Stone, Inflict Moderate Wounds, Sleep, Slow, and Telekinesis. It can use 3 rays per round, and can't use the same ray twice in the same round.
It can use 3 rays in a single 90 degree arc, but there's no cap on the number per round. If the targets spread out enough, a beholder can use all of it's eye rays in the same turn. I believe it's common for beholders to actually dive into close range specifically so they can target as many people as possible.

[ExLibrisMortis]

It's going to have a lower to-hit with eye rays, and lower damage, but the save DCs will still be high. Flesh to stone is a dangerous spell, and two charms per round does add up. Maybe -3 CR is fair if you limit flesh to stone to summons, rather than targeting the wizard. You can also add some eye-ray fodder, such as leftover low-CR high-HP undead. The beholder can disintegrate the ones threatening it, and use inflict moderate wounds to heal the ones close to the party.