Houserule: casting a specific cantrip as a bonus action, OP?

[Citan]

Hi all!

I've been wondering for some time, keeping the idea in my for either full homebrew or just houserule for a friend wanting to play an "elemental-themed" character.

Would be giving the ability to cast ONE specific cantrip (barring Eldricht Blast, it's not "elemental" anyways, and "weapon attack" cantrips such as Booming Blade) as a bonus action without any cost be OP?
For a gish that would get access to simple Extra Attack, it seems to me it would be balanced, compared to EK Fighter, Hunter Ranger, Paladin or Bards (not even accounting for the fact that all of these can also get a melee bonus action attack).

Taking Shocking Graps cantrip as an example, with a level 7 Eldricht Knight (because War Magic), DEX + INT at 16, no feats, Two-Weapon Fighting Style (for the sake of having a consistent bonus action weapon attack), two shortswords, no Action Surge.
Let's give him the ability to cast Shocking Grasp cantrip as a bonus action (chosen because closest to highest level damage, but with a rider, so overall very good. Plus it's an attack roll so it can benefit from most of the buffs/other action that grant advantage on attack roll).
He can choose either of the following combination for his turn...
1) Extra Attack + bonus action attack (Two-weapon fighting).

2*(1d6+3) + (1d6+3) = 2*6,5 + (3,5+3) = 13 + 6,5 = 19,5.

2) Extra Attack + Shocking Grasp

13 + 2d8 = 13 + 2*4,5 = 13 + 9 = 22.

3) Shocking Grasp + War Magic

9 + 6,5 = 15,5.

4) Shocking Grasp + Shocking Grasp

2*9 = 18.

This comparison shows an increase of a few points. Not breaking anything to me.

Furthermore, this is kinda the worse basis possible on the weapon attack side: you could take the Dual Wielder feat to use Rapiers, get Ranged with Sharpshooter + Crossbow Expert, or make a STR build with Great Weapon Master.
And a martial would probably bump its attack stat more than its casting stat.
So in practice most builds will deal much better damage on weapon attacks.

Because of that, let's try a lvl 20 character theorycraft build (Paladin or Fighter / Sorcerer for example) that...
- has max attack stat and casting stat.
- has a consistent way to use a weapon attack as a bonus action (whatever action it takes).
- has Extra Attack (but only 2 attacks).
- has either GWM (with Glaive) or Sharpshooter+Crossbow Expert (with Heavy Crossbow).
- no other bonus such as Paladin's smite, magic weapon or other thing.

Going back to the 4 cases: first without using the feat's bonus damage.
1) Extra Attack + bonus action attack.

2*(5,5+5) + (5,5+5) = 21 + 10,5 = 31,5

2) Extra Attack + Shocking Grasp

21 + 4*4,5 = 21 + 18 = 39

3) Shocking Grasp + bonus action weapon attack

18 + 10,5 = 28,5.

4) Shocking Grasp + Shocking Grasp

2*18 = 36.

We now see a sensible difference in power per round, Shocking Grasp as a bonus action is a good boost.
But if we now includes the potential damage boost from the feats...

1) Extra Attack + bonus action attack.

2*(5,5+5+10) + (5,5+5+10) = 41 + 20,5 = 61,5

2) Extra Attack + Shocking Grasp

41 + 4*4,5 = 41 + 18 = 59

3) Shocking Grasp + bonus action weapon attack

18 + 20,5 = 38,5.

4) Shocking Grasp + Shocking Grasp

2*18 = 36.


We now see that casting Shocking Grasp as a bonus action is either on par or much worse. Even if the rider is a nice bonus, it's not always useful.
And I didn't even account for weapon buffs such as spells, magic weapons that would further increase weapon attack damage.

So my opinion on this is that, the only case where allowing no-resource cantrip as a bonus action would be very (too?) powerful would be a game without feats nor magic weapons, because then the gish character would have any interest to max its casting stat and forego his weapon stat.

And still... I also use the fact that Sorcerer can do this on a basis (although it DOES cost him something, Metamagic points) and Death Cleric also (you target two creatures with the same cast, that's quite nearly the same in my opinion, or even better) to consider that it would still be acceptable. Because he would still be far behind a Fighter (4 attacks per action), Paladin (extra 1d8 radiant every melee weapon attack), Bladelock (+CHA every attack) or even Ranger (extra free attack, Hunter's Mark).

Agreed? Or did I miss something, badly?

Thanks for taking time to read and share. ;)

[Gastronomie]

This comparison shows an increase of a few points. Not breaking anything to me.Eh, yeah, there may not be an increase of loads and loads of points, but that's because the main thing of Shocking Grasp is the extra effect that stops the enemy from using his reaction.

I also use the fact that Sorcerer can do this on a basis (although it DOES cost him something, Metamagic points) ... (snip)... to consider that it would still be acceptable.Actually, the very fact that a Sorcerer (a class whose main selling point is flexible casting) requires a cost to do this is evidence that this shouldn't be acceptable, at least not for free.

Let's see how we can handle this.

Well, first-off: You explained a lot about DPR, and it's sure important, but DPR isn't everything. So, while it might seem okay to give Eldritch Knights the ability you mentioned, Eldritch Knights are actually already pretty good at what they do. I don't like the idea of making it stronger.

Perhaps the easiest solution is to have the player create a Paladin/Sorcerer (the smite spells are actually quite thematic for an elemental warrior) or Fighter/Sorcerer character, and give him a new metamagic option like:

Quickened Cantrip
When you cast a cantrip that has a casting time of 1 action, you can spend 1 sorcery point to change the casting time to 1 bonus action for this casting.

I think that this way, stuff will remain more balanced and in place, and you can keep homebrewing to a minimum.

[Giant2005]

Yes it is pretty OP. Crossbow Expert and Polearm Master are considered to be the best feats of their types because they give reliable bonus action attacks, and you are suggesting giving more powerful bonus action attacks for free.
Still, if you want to do it then just go ahead - I'm sure you can find a way to compensate for the increased power. Just be aware that everyone in the group is going to have magic whether it be by taking a magic class, using spell sniper/magic initiate, or being a high elf/half elf with high elf tendencies.
Or you could just play the game as is and let the casters have their bonus action attacks the normal, but more balanced way (through spells like Flaming Sphere).

[Citan]

Eh, yeah, there may not be an increase of loads and loads of points, but that's because the main thing of Shocking Grasp is the extra effect that stops the enemy from using his reaction.
Actually, the very fact that a Sorcerer (a class whose main selling point is flexible casting) requires a cost to do this is evidence that this shouldn't be acceptable, at least not for free.

Let's see how we can handle this.

Well, first-off: You explained a lot about DPR, and it's sure important, but DPR isn't everything. So, while it might seem okay to give Eldritch Knights the ability you mentioned, Eldritch Knights are actually already pretty good at what they do. I don't like the idea of making it stronger.


Yes it is pretty OP. Crossbow Expert and Polearm Master are considered to be the best feats of their types because they give reliable bonus action attacks, and you are suggesting giving more powerful bonus action attacks for free.
Still, if you want to do it then just go ahead - I'm sure you can find a way to compensate for the increased power. Just be aware that everyone in the group is going to have magic whether it be by taking a magic class, using spell sniper/magic initiate, or being a high elf/half elf with high elf tendencies.
Or you could just play the game as is and let the casters have their bonus action attacks the normal, but more balanced way (through spells like Flaming Sphere).
Ok, seems I explained my idea pretty badly, I'm sorry. It was not giving this to Eldricht Knight. It was to homebrew a sort of half-caster class which would not get anything beyond 2 attack per action and a few spells ranging from 1st to 3rd level.

So giving a constant bonus action with a cantrip that would mark their elemental specialization didn't seem game-breaking to me when compared to what other classes can do in terms of damage (just the Agonizing Blast largely beats it in a single action after all, or a single Attack action from a Fighter without feat. Death Cleric also gets equally good at lvl 2 and still gets his bonus action free).

And he would not have gotten this feature until at least 6th level anyways so anyone trying to dip into this homebrew class would have paid a heavy toll in either his spellcasting ability or martial prowesses just to get a good at-will, one-trick pony feature. Not sure it would be worth it. :)

I do like this idea though for my player.


Perhaps the easiest solution is to have the player create a Paladin/Sorcerer (the smite spells are actually quite thematic for an elemental warrior) or Fighter/Sorcerer character, and give him a new metamagic option like:

Quickened Cantrip
When you cast a cantrip that has a casting time of 1 action, you can spend 1 sorcery point to change the casting time to 1 bonus action for this casting.

I think that this way, stuff will remain more balanced and in place, and you can keep homebrewing to a minimum.
Nice and elegant indeed, does not "eat" a metamagic choice. (You made me realize that my memory was wrong, I mixed up the minimum cost of Quicken and Twin, so I thought that you could already Quicken a cantrip for 1 Sorcery point).

In fact it's good enough to make me think it could be a nice errata to the official Sorcerer class, considering how few Metamagic they learn, giving this one toned down version of Quicken for free would be nice. Although it would probably be too powerful, once you consider possible Agonizing Blast dip or weapon cantrips.

Thanks for the opinions and suggestions guys. ;)

[Giant2005]

Ok, seems I explained my idea pretty badly, I'm sorry. It was not giving this to Eldricht Knight. It was to homebrew a sort of half-caster class which would not get anything beyond 2 attack per action and a few spells ranging from 1st to 3rd level.

Oh... Well in that case, I wouldn't give it any more damage-increasing abilities (I'd seriously consider ditching Extra Attack too). Give them the ability to cast a Cantrip as a bonus action, but doing so casts that Cantrip at half their character level. At level 11, give them an improved version of the ability that lets them cast the quickened Cantrip at full power.
Just make sure you don't give them any more damaging abilities - they are already going to be doing more than top tier damage, but not so much to be absurd. Giving them other abilities to increase their damage would easily push them over that line.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'd give it instead of Extra Attack-- it honestly seems like a more thematic option for a gish. ~2d8 (average) at 5th is pretty comparable to a second weapon attack, and ~3d8 (average) is about right for the 11th level damage boost, and no-one really cares about 17th level. You get a rider effect, but it's also consuming your bonus action-- seems reasonable to me.

[MrStabby]

A single weapon attack + a cantrip is what an EK can get at level 7 - and certainly isn't overpowered with the core PHB rules.

Allowing a cantrip as a bonus action when the attack action is taken is probably a bit better, if only due to potential multiclassing that could give you 2 attacks.

To be honest if you are homebrewing it seems a good solid ability and should be ok as long as the rest of the class is in-line.

[MBControl]

I might suggest a different way to gain the same effect.

Have the player find/buy/craft a magical item that allows this to happen. Using this method has some extra benefits. First, other players can't use it as a reason to get extra "powers" on their builds, as you can simply explain that it was the magic hat that let him cast that cantrip as a bonus action. Plus, it is more vulnerable than an innate ability. It could get lost, stolen, broken, or even disenchanted.

[Citan]

Thanks all for additional replies.

Oh... Well in that case, I wouldn't give it any more damage-increasing abilities (I'd seriously consider ditching Extra Attack too). Give them the ability to cast a Cantrip as a bonus action, but doing so casts that Cantrip at half their character level. At level 11, give them an improved version of the ability that lets them cast the quickened Cantrip at full power.
Just make sure you don't give them any more damaging abilities - they are already going to be doing more than top tier damage, but not so much to be absurd. Giving them other abilities to increase their damage would easily push them over that line.
That's what crossed my thought after reading your first reaction. ;)


I'd give it instead of Extra Attack-- it honestly seems like a more thematic option for a gish. ~2d8 (average) at 5th is pretty comparable to a second weapon attack, and ~3d8 (average) is about right for the 11th level damage boost, and no-one really cares about 17th level. You get a rider effect, but it's also consuming your bonus action-- seems reasonable to me.


A single weapon attack + a cantrip is what an EK can get at level 7 - and certainly isn't overpowered with the core PHB rules.

Allowing a cantrip as a bonus action when the attack action is taken is probably a bit better, if only due to potential multiclassing that could give you 2 attacks.

To be honest if you are homebrewing it seems a good solid ability and should be ok as long as the rest of the class is in-line.
So basically, you are suggesting that this gish would be "the opposite" of Eldricht Knight: "when you take the Attack action, you can cast (choose the one cantrip) as a bonus action"?
And getting Extra Attack would be a "reward" for multiclassing in another class?


I might suggest a different way to gain the same effect.

Have the player find/buy/craft a magical item that allows this to happen. Using this method has some extra benefits. First, other players can't use it as a reason to get extra "powers" on their builds, as you can simply explain that it was the magic hat that let him cast that cantrip as a bonus action. Plus, it is more vulnerable than an innate ability. It could get lost, stolen, broken, or even disenchanted.
It's a very interesting idea, that I will steal without any remorse for a game I'm currently DMing (well, if we one day manage to go past the first chapter XD).
For a class relying on elemental powers though, my feeling is that it would a be though for the player to have a core ability that would be so easy to lose (except maybe as a "bound amulet" which you can replace by following a lengthy and costly ritual).

[MrStabby]

I might suggest a different way to gain the same effect.

Have the player find/buy/craft a magical item that allows this to happen. Using this method has some extra benefits. First, other players can't use it as a reason to get extra "powers" on their builds, as you can simply explain that it was the magic hat that let him cast that cantrip as a bonus action. Plus, it is more vulnerable than an innate ability. It could get lost, stolen, broken, or even disenchanted.

Personally if I were a player I wouldn't like this. I would prefer to be a guy that can do stuff rather than a guy who has nice toys.

This then also raises the issue of other players wanting items of a similar power and you have to take care to ensure the other players know that the Cool Thing is in place of a class ability.

Mechanically though, it works well.

[Grod_The_Giant]

So basically, you are suggesting that this gish would be "the opposite" of Eldricht Knight: "when you take the Attack action, you can cast (choose the one cantrip) as a bonus action"?
And getting Extra Attack would be a "reward" for multiclassing in another class?
Pretty much, though you could probably get away with allowing any cantrip with that setup.

[Strill]

Ok, seems I explained my idea pretty badly, I'm sorry. It was not giving this to Eldricht Knight. It was to homebrew a sort of half-caster class which would not get anything beyond 2 attack per action and a few spells ranging from 1st to 3rd level.

So giving a constant bonus action with a cantrip that would mark their elemental specialization didn't seem game-breaking to me when compared to what other classes can do in terms of damage (just the Agonizing Blast largely beats it in a single action after all, or a single Attack action from a Fighter without feat. Death Cleric also gets equally good at lvl 2 and still gets his bonus action free).

And he would not have gotten this feature until at least 6th level anyways so anyone trying to dip into this homebrew class would have paid a heavy toll in either his spellcasting ability or martial prowesses just to get a good at-will, one-trick pony feature. Not sure it would be worth it. :)

I do like this idea though for my player.

Nice and elegant indeed, does not "eat" a metamagic choice. (You made me realize that my memory was wrong, I mixed up the minimum cost of Quicken and Twin, so I thought that you could already Quicken a cantrip for 1 Sorcery point).

In fact it's good enough to make me think it could be a nice errata to the official Sorcerer class, considering how few Metamagic they learn, giving this one toned down version of Quicken for free would be nice. Although it would probably be too powerful, once you consider possible Agonizing Blast dip or weapon cantrips.

Thanks for the opinions and suggestions guys. ;)

This sounds about on par with the damage of an Eldritch Knight. So yeah that sounds reasonable, provided that either Extra Attack, or this bonus-action cantrip ability comes at level 11.

The way I'm understanding this, is that this class is similar to an Eldritch Knight, but rather than an extra attack at levels 5 and 11, it gets an extra attack at 11, and a bonus-action cantrip attack at 5.


Oh... Well in that case, I wouldn't give it any more damage-increasing abilities (I'd seriously consider ditching Extra Attack too). Give them the ability to cast a Cantrip as a bonus action, but doing so casts that Cantrip at half their character level. At level 11, give them an improved version of the ability that lets them cast the quickened Cantrip at full power.
Just make sure you don't give them any more damaging abilities - they are already going to be doing more than top tier damage, but not so much to be absurd. Giving them other abilities to increase their damage would easily push them over that line.

You have no idea what you're talking about. A single attack plus a cantrip gives you at-will damage that's on the high end of what a FULL CASTER can get. This class is less than a 1/3 caster. It should absolutely get extra attack and the full bonus-action cantrip.

[MBControl]

Personally if I were a player I wouldn't like this. I would prefer to be a guy that can do stuff rather than a guy who has nice toys.

This then also raises the issue of other players wanting items of a similar power and you have to take care to ensure the other players know that the Cool Thing is in place of a class ability.

Mechanically though, it works well.

I understand that thought, though I think we're trying to balance giving players what they want, but balancing out the advantages. I do like the thought of making it a bonded item, that can be required through a ritual if lost. this would make the item basically a permanent ability, but will allow you to control it if you need to.

Seems fair, and if this item was given to them by their God or bloodlines, it could present some nice story opportunities. For example, if a character strays to far from their elemental roots, the power of the amulet fades out, and the PC is required to take a pilgrimage to restore it.

[Giant2005]

I don't know how people are thinking that two cantrips in a single round, is balanced with the EK's 1 cantrip + 1 attack. If 1 attack was equivalent to a cantrip, then Wizards wouldn't be using Firebolt, they would be hitting things with their stick.

[Strill]

I don't know how people are thinking that two cantrips in a single round, is balanced with the EK's 1 cantrip + 1 attack. If 1 attack was equivalent to a cantrip, then Wizards wouldn't be using Firebolt, they would be hitting things with their stick.

Wizards don't have greatswords, fighting styles, weapon mastery feats, or a high strength score.

[Giant2005]

Wizards don't have greatswords, fighting styles, weapon mastery feats, or a high strength score.

So what you are saying is that this ability is balanced with an EK, because that one ability is only a little bit more powerful than the entire Fighter class?
That would seem reasonable if the class that the ability was given to somehow didn't have anything but that one ability, otherwise those extra abilities would push it over the edge.

[Strill]

So what you are saying is that this ability is balanced with an EK, because that one ability is only a little bit more powerful than the entire Fighter class?
That would seem reasonable if the class that the ability was given to somehow didn't have anything but that one ability, otherwise those extra abilities would push it over the edge.

Two cantrips per turn is still quite a bit worse than a fighter's damage. Just look at Warlocks. Agonizing Blast almost doubles their cantrip damage, so it's like they get two cantrips per turn. Even so, they still only do around 2/3 of a Fighter's damage.

[Tanarii]

Two cantrips per turn is still quite a bit worse than a fighter's damage. Just look at Warlocks. Agonizing Blast almost doubles their cantrip damage, so it's like they get two cantrips per turn. Even so, they still only do around 2/3 of a Fighter's damage.
What feats and magic items are you assuming on the Fighter? Because 2d6+stat is less than 1d10+1d6+stat any day of the week. Action Surge and Spell Slots are about on par (warlocks get to use them twice as often but they aren't 100% increase in DPR per use). Or are you assuming constant Trip advantage like Kryx does?

Of course, that's EB, not a bog standard cantrip. But even War Magic's 1 attack + cantrip can compete with Extra Attack, unless you've got a GWM/PAM with Advantage build going on. Extra Attack + Cantrip will of course exceed Extra Attack alone, and 2 Cantrips should far outstrip Extra Attack alone on any baseline build.

[Citan]

I understand that thought, though I think we're trying to balance giving players what they want, but balancing out the advantages. I do like the thought of making it a bonded item, that can be required through a ritual if lost. this would make the item basically a permanent ability, but will allow you to control it if you need to.

Seems fair, and if this item was given to them by their God or bloodlines, it could present some nice story opportunities. For example, if a character strays to far from their elemental roots, the power of the amulet fades out, and the PC is required to take a pilgrimage to restore it.
Truthfully, I actually did something like that already, but with a weapon. Made the weapon being the relay for the bond between character and its environment, allowing him to draw its energy.
And until he's lvl 10, he basically needs to wield its bond weapon to use most of its abilities. That's why I think adding another "bounded item" would be too much. In compensation, he gets nice benefits when wielding the weapon (like, actually being able to retrieve a thrown weapon with a free action at lvl 10, making a thrown weapon build viable without spending all carry capacity on just having like 20 javelins or so XD).

So what you are saying is that this ability is balanced with an EK, because that one ability is only a little bit more powerful than the entire Fighter class?
That would seem reasonable if the class that the ability was given to somehow didn't have anything but that one ability, otherwise those extra abilities would push it over the edge.
Well, to be honest with you, I really don't understand either why you have such a hard opinion.
If you just look at at-will damage, which seem to be your main gripe...
Basically any martial class will get at least as good or better than this...
- Barbarian has Rage and advantage (+ big boost in STR in the end).
- Fighter gets 4 attacks.
- Ranger gets 3 or more attacks + Hunter's Mark.
- Paladin has extra damage (1d8 radiant) + generally either +CHA to hit, advantage or +CHA to damage.
- Rogue has Sneak attack.
- Bladelock has Hex combined with Agonizing Blast or Lifedrinker.
- Death Cleric has twinned Chill Touch).
- Sorcerer can twin cantrip (sure, it uses sorcery points, but he can do it every turn for at least 1 fight without expending any slot) and more importantly, spells.
Just by using their action.

They also get plenty of other nice features in offense, defense or utility, that are passive or at-will.
And most of them get a good use for their bonus action as well: smite spells, Cunning Action, two-weapon fighting or feat, spells that require a bonus action such as Hunter's Mark, Moon Druid can heal, etc etc. Basically most class except Fighter get non-trigger ("at-will") bonus actions (or low-level sustainable spells that give a use of bonus action), and Fighter gets more ASI/Feats which he can spend to compensate.
So the argument of "you're giving a great advantage by giving a consistant bonus action" does not hold either in my opinion.

So imo it's really not breaking balance damage-wise to give ONE specific cantrip as a bonus action, to someone who won't get many other things beyond that. He won't ever get more than 2 attacks without the aid of spells, and he will have lesser spells known and slots than Eldricht Knight (which has already not much ^^).

But that's beyond the point in fact.
Having a gish that comes close, with action+bonus action, to what other classes can do with only an action, does not seem any problematic to me.
Nor the fact that he gets better at dealing at-will damage than casters, because casters get much much more power in spells (including sustainable spells that can be used with an action or bonus action). Not even accounting for Wizard's near capstone (free Scorching Ray, how cool is that?) or Druid's capstone ("you'll never kill me but I will bite you"). Nor the fact that they are a number times more versatile anyways.

[Strill]

What feats and magic items are you assuming on the Fighter? Because 2d6+stat is less than 1d10+1d6+stat any day of the week. Action Surge and Spell Slots are about on par (warlocks get to use them twice as often but they aren't 100% increase in DPR per use). Or are you assuming constant Trip advantage like Kryx does?I brought up Agonizing Blast because it doubles cantrip damage and is at-will, making it a good example of what 2 cantrips per turn looks like. I did not bring it up to get into a discussion of optimized Warlock vs optimized Fighter. You're going off-topic.


But even War Magic's 1 attack + cantrip can compete with Extra Attack, unless you've got a GWM/PAM with Advantage build going on. Extra Attack + Cantrip will of course exceed Extra Attack alone, and 2 Cantrips should far outstrip Extra Attack alone on any baseline build.

Fighter has 2d6 + 1.33 (fighting style) + STR. That's around 7 + 1.33 + 4 = 12.33 damage per attack. In total, you've got either 24.66 damage with extra attack, or 37 damage if you get the Bonus attack from GWM.

Two cantrips is around 4d8 or 4d10 damage, which is either 18 or 22 damage.

So the Fighter is ahead of 2 cantrips, and I haven't even factored in magic weapons, -5/+10 from GWM, fighter archetypes, or spell synergies that benefit martials but not casters.

[Giant2005]

Well, to be honest with you, I really don't understand either why you have such a hard opinion.
If you just look at at-will damage, which seem to be your main gripe...
Basically any martial class will get at least as good or better than this...
But they don't. Just look at your examples:


- Barbarian has Rage and advantage (+ big boost in STR in the end).
The level 20 bonus is nice, but it is also a level 20 bonus on a class that doesn't get much of anything past level 3. Barbarians are strictly a dip-only class, level 20 Barbs are a myth - no-one is willing to devote 17 levels of nothing just for that capstone.
The most damage a Barb gets prior to that capstone is Extra Attack (2 attacks) + 4 damage from Rage. This proposed class (assuming none of the amendments I and others have mentioned in this thread) using Booming Blade would have the same two attacks, +1d8 damage on each attack (average 4.5) at level 5, plus the chance at an extra 2d8 if the rider procs. This one ability at level 5 gives slightly more damage than a level 16 Barb.


- Fighter gets 4 attacks.
Again, that is level 20.
Either way, those extra two attacks above the BB-using homebrew will at most amount to 2d6+5 each (average 26.7 with GWF taken into account). Meanwhile, at level 17, this homebrew gets an extra 6d8 (average 27) initial damage with a chance of another 4d8 from the rider. Again, the homebrew does more damage at an earlier level and those are under conditions most favorable to the Fighter. At level 5, the Fighter and homebrew have the same attacks but the homebrew gets an extra 2d8 damage with another possible 2d8 from the rider. At level 11, the fighter gets an extra attack of a possible 2d6+5 (average 13.3), while the homebrew gets an extra 4d8 (average 18) plus a possible 3d8 from the rider. At all levels the homebrew is superior, and the difference starts out pretty great but narrows once the Fighter gains its capstone.


- Ranger gets 3 or more attacks + Hunter's Mark.
I have no idea where these three attacks are coming from, but the Ranger can possible get a third from horde breaker, but either way just look up there at the Fighter - the numbers are the same as the level 11 Fighter. As for Hunter's Mark, there isn't enough information to be able to compare the two. I'm just going to assume that the half casting homebrew is going to have similar spellcasting capabilities to the other half casting classes - it comes out a wash.


- Paladin has extra damage (1d8 radiant) + generally either +CHA to hit, advantage or +CHA to damage.
Aside from the Improved Divine Smite and the Oathbreaker's +Chamod to damage, those are once per rest abilities.
As from the damage bonus, that is what a Paladin gets at level 11, while the BB-using homebrew has the same number of attacks and damage bonus applied at leve 5 (and again, with the additional damage proc chance from the rider). At level 11, the Paladin is 2d8 die of damage behind initially, with that rider also becoming more potent. At level 17, the homebrew gains even more damage, while the already faltering Paladin just falls further behind.


- Rogue has Sneak attack.
At level 5, The Rogue can possibly be inflicting 1d8+3d6+5 damage (average 20.5), the homebrew can possibly be inflicting 4d8+10 (average 28). The homebrew is already in the lead while assuming a 1d8 weapon (could potentially be using a 2d6 weapon for all we know at this stage), it also has a chance for an extra 2d8 from the proc, and the Rogue isn't even guaranteed that 3d6 damage. At level 11, the Rogue is 1d8+6d6+5 (average 31.5) vs the homebew's initial damage of 6d8+10 (average 37). At level 17, the Rogue is 1d8+9d6+5 (average 42.5) vs the homebrew's initial damage of 8d8+10 (average 46). The Rogue starts off miles behind, but the gap does eventually narrow, although never enough to catch up. Again, that is ignoring the potential for the homebrew's spells to add to the damage, use a better weapon, or proc rider damage.


- Bladelock has Hex combined with Agonizing Blast or Lifedrinker.
Level 5 Warlock inflicts 2d10+10 (average 21), level 11 Warlock inflicts 3d10+15 (average 31.5), level 17 Warlock inflicts 4d10+20 (average 42
). If you compare that to the homebrew's breakdown as per in the Rogue section, the Warlock doesn't keep up at any level. As for Hex, that is another thing that cannot be compared due to not knowing what spells the homebrew has access to.


- Death Cleric has twinned Chill Touch).
I'm not going to bother with this one. Two Chill Touches just doesn't compare to two Booming Blades at the best of times, and those two Chill Touches are fairly unreliable in the first place.


- Sorcerer can twin cantrip (sure, it uses sorcery points, but he can do it every turn for at least 1 fight without expending any slot) and more importantly, spells.
Yes Sorcs can do the same thing, just not as cheaply.

[Lombra]

Maybe instead of extra attack give extra elemental damage of choice to the attack damage as the character levels up, like certain cleric domains do (war, life, trickery, tempest), then give it the possibility to cast a "signature cantrip" of his choice (with any appropriate restriction, maybe that cantrip can't require a melee attack roll, or something like that) as a bonus action.

[Citan]

But they don't. Just look at your examples:

The level 20 bonus is nice, but it is also a level 20 bonus on a class that doesn't get much of anything past level 3. Barbarians are strictly a dip-only class, level 20 Barbs are a myth - no-one is willing to devote 17 levels of nothing just for that capstone.
The most damage a Barb gets prior to that capstone is Extra Attack (2 attacks) + 4 damage from Rage. This proposed class (assuming none of the amendments I and others have mentioned in this thread) using Booming Blade would have the same two attacks, +1d8 damage on each attack (average 4.5) at level 5, plus the chance at an extra 2d8 if the rider procs. This one ability at level 5 gives slightly more damage than a level 16 Barb.

Bolded part is your opinion only, especially since you forget there is also Constitution boost and Unlimited Rage, with all that this implies. Frankly, I think it's the opposite: someone starting a Barbarian with a good chance to reach lvl 20 would consider thrice before multiclassing.
Furthermore, I wrote, black on white in the first post, that weapon cantrips and Eldricht Blast were excluded from the choice: so no BB, no GFB. Seems it wasn't clear enough though. :/
That's also why I chose Shocking Grasp, being one with an attack roll.
So basically your point is moot since you base all comparison on the premise that any cantrip, and especially BB or GFB, would be allowed as a bonus action.



Again, that is level 20.
Either way, those extra two attacks above the BB-using homebrew will at most amount to 2d6+5 each (average 26.7 with GWF taken into account). Meanwhile, at level 17, this homebrew gets an extra 6d8 (average 27) initial damage with a chance of another 4d8 from the rider. Again, the homebrew does more damage at an earlier level and those are under conditions most favorable to the Fighter. At level 5, the Fighter and homebrew have the same attacks but the homebrew gets an extra 2d8 damage with another possible 2d8 from the rider. At level 11, the fighter gets an extra attack of a possible 2d6+5 (average 13.3), while the homebrew gets an extra 4d8 (average 18) plus a possible 3d8 from the rider. At all levels the homebrew is superior, and the difference starts out pretty great but narrows once the Fighter gains its capstone.

Booming Blade = moot. Although I see your point about the ability being more powerful at lower levels (between 5 and 11) than Extra Attack + bonus action. But then again, all martial classes get great other features (defensive features, spells and so on) to keep their individuality and value.



I have no idea where these three attacks are coming from, but the Ranger can possible get a third from horde breaker, but either way just look up there at the Fighter - the numbers are the same as the level 11 Fighter. As for Hunter's Mark, there isn't enough information to be able to compare the two. I'm just going to assume that the half casting homebrew is going to have similar spellcasting capabilities to the other half casting classes - it comes out a wash.

These indeed come from Horde Breaker (and later Volley). I also quoted Hunter's Mark because precisely it's something specific to the Ranger that the homebrew wouldn't get. If I had planned so, I would have told it in the premises. :)
I also told in a way that seemed clear enough to me that this class would get lesser spell known and lesser spell slots than an Eldricht Knight.



Aside from the Improved Divine Smite and the Oathbreaker's +Chamod to damage, those are once per rest abilities.
As from the damage bonus, that is what a Paladin gets at level 11, while the BB-using homebrew has the same number of attacks and damage bonus applied at leve 5 (and again, with the additional damage proc chance from the rider). At level 11, the Paladin is 2d8 die of damage behind initially, with that rider also becoming more potent. At level 17, the homebrew gains even more damage, while the already faltering Paladin just falls further behind.

Again, moot comparison with BB. I really wonder where you did come up with this idea... XD



At level 5, The Rogue can possibly be inflicting 1d8+3d6+5 damage (average 20.5), the homebrew can possibly be inflicting 4d8+10 (average 28). The homebrew is already in the lead while assuming a 1d8 weapon (could potentially be using a 2d6 weapon for all we know at this stage), it also has a chance for an extra 2d8 from the proc, and the Rogue isn't even guaranteed that 3d6 damage. At level 11, the Rogue is 1d8+6d6+5 (average 31.5) vs the homebew's initial damage of 6d8+10 (average 37). At level 17, the Rogue is 1d8+9d6+5 (average 42.5) vs the homebrew's initial damage of 8d8+10 (average 46). The Rogue starts off miles behind, but the gap does eventually narrow, although never enough to catch up. Again, that is ignoring the potential for the homebrew's spells to add to the damage, use a better weapon, or proc rider damage.

... (bis repetitae)



Level 5 Warlock inflicts 2d10+10 (average 21), level 11 Warlock inflicts 3d10+15 (average 31.5), level 17 Warlock inflicts 4d10+20 (average 42
). If you compare that to the homebrew's breakdown as per in the Rogue section, the Warlock doesn't keep up at any level. As for Hex, that is another thing that cannot be compared due to not knowing what spells the homebrew has access to.

...



I'm not going to bother with this one. Two Chill Touches just doesn't compare to two Booming Blades at the best of times, and those two Chill Touches are fairly unreliable in the first place.

... (Wonder how you can say "it's fairly unreliable in the first place". The discussion doesn't take resistance into account, and even so, preventing hit points regain and putting disadvantage on the next attack is pretty neat. Beyond that, it's a ranged attack so as long as you pump the right stat, there is no reason why it would be unreliable).



Yes Sorcs can do the same thing, just not as cheaply.
Yes you're right, but a Sorcerer that would really want to just cast 2 cantrips per turn all day could perfectly do so, considering he has ample reserve of spell points thanks to conversion. So in any normal day, he could do this for at least 3-4 fights "worst case" and still have a few spell slots for utility (basing my assessment on the hypothesis, which I think is commonly admitted here, that most encounters don't last more than 6 turns maximum, and you are supposed to get 5-6 of them per day), or just blow everything without any consideration to its real job to become a cantrip machine. ^^

So, all your demonstration falls down badly. ;) With that said, I'm sorry if my OP post was not clear enough and made you misunderstand.

Maybe instead of extra attack give extra elemental damage of choice to the attack damage as the character levels up, like certain cleric domains do (war, life, trickery, tempest), then give it the possibility to cast a "signature cantrip" of his choice (with any appropriate restriction, maybe that cantrip can't require a melee attack roll, or something like that) as a bonus action.
That's exactly what I planned to do from the start, with a choice being limited to non-weapon attack cantrips dealing elemental damage. :)
Seemed fine with me, especially considering that...

~2d8 (average) at 5th is pretty comparable to a second weapon attack, and ~3d8 (average) is about right for the 11th level damage boost, and no-one really cares about 17th level. You get a rider effect, but it's also consuming your bonus action-- seems reasonable to me.
Grod the Giant expressed an opinion I 100% agree with in much better words than me. :)

[Grod_The_Giant]

I don't know how people are thinking that two cantrips in a single round, is balanced with the EK's 1 cantrip + 1 attack. If 1 attack was equivalent to a cantrip, then Wizards wouldn't be using Firebolt, they would be hitting things with their stick.
It's not-- a longbow will do much better damage than a level-one Firebolt, and a rapier will do better than a level-one Shocking Grasp. You won't do better than an absolute basic archer (Extra Attack, good Dex and nothing else) until 11th level, and even at 20th your average isn't much higher. Wizards only bother with damaging cantrips because they don't have good weapon proficiencies, and because it's more fun. None of the potential riders are that strong, either.

(Again, this is leaving aside the weapon cantrips, as mentioned in the OP-- those are roughly equal to two attacks)

[Tanarii]

I brought up Agonizing Blast because it doubles cantrip damage and is at-will, making it a good example of what 2 cantrips per turn looks like. I did not bring it up to get into a discussion of optimized Warlock vs optimized Fighter. You're going off-topic.Ah. Totally misunderstood your point then. But:

Two cantrips is around 4d8 or 4d10 damage, which is either 18 or 22 damage.Actually the quicker way to make th comparison is 2d8 or 2d10 per level break point. Which is roughly compare to 2d6+stat+Fighting Style, for Fighter's version of Extra Attack, once you factor in range advantage & extra affect on the cantrip side. Don't mind me, I'm not sure where my head was at anyway. Pretty sure I was thinking of S&B style numbers from a previous thread on EKs, not 2H.