is Repelling Blast good?

[JeenLeen]

I think I've read folk mentioning how good or even overpowered Repelling Blast, the warlock evocation that let's your Eldritch Blast push whoever it hits 10 feet, is.

To me, this evocation looks almost useless. I can see it being decent if you're in melee, but then you're already at disadvantage to hit so that's a bad circumstance to find yourself in. It's also useful if you can push them onto a cliff or something, but that seems rare.

So why is this good, or was I just mistaken that such is a common opinion?

Speculation: at high level when you have several rays, hitting one person several times would be very good and possibly keep them from being able to get into melee range. Is that it?

[Gastronomie]

Repelling Blast is just "decent" on its own. Good DMs may occasionally introduce battlefield effects where pushing an enemy into a certain area becomes beneficial for you, but that's not always the case. Rather Repelling Blast works wonders when you combine it with spells like Wall of Fire or Evard's Black Tentacles. Push an enemy into the area and laugh as he gets burned alive, or gets tentacle raped.

Another way to use it is to prepare beforehand and have someone else in the party "Ready" a spell with an area of effect, like Hypnotic Pattern or Fireball. Set the trigger for the activation of the spell as "the Eldritch Blasts of the warlock push the enemies into this certain area", and you can get more enemies into the area than if your friend caster simply used it on his turn.

Your "speculation" is certainly one way to utilize Repelling Blast, but to unleash its full potential, combination is the key.

[Shining Wrath]

Anything that lets you do damage AND do something else is worth a look.

Repelling blast lets you:

Move enemies away from squishy / ranged party members
Move enemies next to melee party members
Move enemies into bad things like fire and 10,000 foot drops
Move enemies so that a party member can get through the "line of mooks" and reach the "artillery" behind the line.
Move enemies so they are grouped for a party member's area of effect spell


Remember that 5e rewards party-level optimization as much or more than player-level optimization.

[Gastronomie]

This is sorta inspired off a trick used in Yu Yu Hakusho, but it might actually be a fun idea to blast a teammate with Repelling Blast to send him flying into a particular destination, in a time of dire emergency.

[JeffreyGator]

In my last session the warlock hit a creature on a platform in a tree ten feet backward into open air 30' up.

this not only added 3d6 damage but brought the creature down to the ground where the fighters could beat on it.

There were three of these creatures and the lock dropped two onto the ground in one round.

It was very effective.

[Moosoculars]

Yeah it's great. Don't underestimate the number of times there are good places to push enemies. Overboard, through a window, off a cliff, away from the wizard, next to the fighter, into the portal. A lot of adventures happen in exotic locations and there are always tactical battlefield choices to make.

[RickAllison]

In my last session the warlock hit a creature on a platform in a tree ten feet backward into open air 30' up.

this not only added 3d6 damage but brought the creature down to the ground where the fighters could beat on it.

There were three of these creatures and the lock dropped two onto the ground in one round.

It was very effective.

We were in a fight where goblins were riding Giant Vultures. Sorceress uses Repelling Blast, goblins go bye-bye...

[R.Shackleford]

We were in a fight where goblins were riding Giant Vultures. Sorceress uses Repelling Blast, goblins go bye-bye...

This is why I keep Crown of Madness on my sorcerer or warlock when I know enemies will be riding mounts.

Rider attacks the mount, the mouth gets mad, the mound attempts to drop the rider because the rider keeps attackingredients their mount... Eventually the mount dies and they drop or the rider is dropped... fun to spread chaos umong enemy ranks.

[RickAllison]

This is why I keep Crown of Madness on my sorcerer or warlock when I know enemies will be riding mounts.

Rider attacks the mount, the mouth gets mad, the mound attempts to drop the rider because the rider keeps attackingredients their mount... Eventually the mount dies and they drop or the rider is dropped... fun to spread chaos umong enemy ranks.

Crown of Madness is so underrated. While it is more situational than other spells, it makes for extreme fun under the right circumstances.

For added points, sow rumors about an anarchist group known as the Black Crowns, who have learned to tap into a magical wellspring of rage to increase their power to topple governments. Then stage a few rebellious actions marked by people with a black crown upon their head before having the sorcerer Subtle Crown of Madness onto a guard of the king. Get him super paranoid about how he cannot trust anyone when the party steps in to take down the guard...

[Alcibiades]

Anything that lets you do damage AND do something else is worth a look.

Not only just deal damage, it gets pasted onto the main source of damage for most warlocks anyway! Double score!

[Sabeta]

Repelling Blast
When you hit a creature with eldritch blast, you can push the creature up to 10 feet away from you in a straight line.

What makes Repelling Blast great is less to do with the effect on its own, but how much better it makes eldritch blast. EB is already the strongest cantrip in the game, but now you're adding a control effect to it. Did I mention that there's no size limitation or saving throw? The reason this is so powerful is because it's on a Cantrip, and it's also a Warlock's main damage source. You have the power to constantly push creatures away from you and your allies, knock them off of parapets to take a castle, push people off of a cliff, corale enemies together for AoE spells. Being able to freely move enemies on the field at all times is a DM nightmare.

I'm also pretty sure you can push an enemy multiple times at higher levels, but the RAW isn't 100% clear here. Even if you can't, pushing three guys in different directions is fantastic. It is important to remember that it's 10 feet from you "in a straight line". I generally allow players to push them in one of three directions (directly away, or 5 feet to either side of that), but it makes positioning as a Warlock very valuable.

[R.Shackleford]

Crown of Madness is so underrated. While it is more situational than other spells, it makes for extreme fun under the right circumstances.

For added points, sow rumors about an anarchist group known as the Black Crowns, who have learned to tap into a magical wellspring of rage to increase their power to topple governments. Then stage a few rebellious actions marked by people with a black crown upon their head before having the sorcerer Subtle Crown of Madness onto a guard of the king. Get him super paranoid about how he cannot trust anyone when the party steps in to take down the guard...

Oh yes, CoM is one of my favorites. One of my friends says it's on the list of spells that I'm banned from learning. And this dude is a sandbox type DM :p

Repelling blast action
Quicken CoM bonus action

An all warlock party (MC some of them) is quite the group to use CoM.

[imneuromancer]

IMHO Repelling Blast is almost as good or better than Agonizing Blast.

I had a warlock in a seafaring campaign. Blowing opponents off of the ship was one of the most super fun and powerful effects in the campaign. But even in dungeons, synergy with a PAM/Sentinel fighter can be ridiculous.

[ZenBear]

attackingredients
Saywhowhahuh? :smalltongue:

synergy with a PAM/Sentinel fighter can be ridiculous.
Can't Opportunity Attack a creature from forced movement. They have to move of their own volition.

[RickAllison]

Saywhowhahuh? :smalltongue:

Can't Opportunity Attack a creature from forced movement. They have to move of their own volition.

I think it is more the ridiculous nature of pushing them back so they have to re-enter the PAM/Sentinel's radius. So rather than a creature being able to back the PAM into a corner, the PAM could potentially advance while holding back the target.

[Elminster298]

Official answer is that crossbow expert works with ranged attack spells to eliminate disadvantage in melee range. Repelling blast to push an enemy back ten feet so you don't incur an attack of opportunity to move

[R.Shackleford]

Official answer is that crossbow expert works with ranged attack spells to eliminate disadvantage in melee range. Repelling blast to push an enemy back ten feet so you don't incur an attack of opportunity to move

Each blast is its own attack, that's 10' per blast last I checked... 10' to 40'...

[Belac93]

One of my players combined it with Hunger of Hadar (area affect, 2d6 unavoidable damage at start of turn, 2d6 saveable damage at end of turn, difficult terrain). He set it in front of opponents, and then used repelling blast. Just taking that invocation ups his damage by at least 6d6 per creature, every other combat (intelligent or cowardly opponents go around it).

Also, at long range (especially combined with distant spell, spell sniper, or eldritch spear), against enemies, it effectively reduces their speed by 10 feet every hit. So, in that situation, it is the same as ray of frost, but more damaging.

[Sabeta]

Each blast is its own attack, that's 10' per blast last I checked... 10' to 40'...

Yes, but it's done with the "Cast a Spell" action, which is a single action. You cannot move between EBs, so I'm not so sure that each hit would push a creature an additional 10'. The effect says "When you hit a creature with" not "for each hit you can". It's about as clear as Whirlwind Attack and moving, anyway. (Please, let's not go through that again)

Most people seem to allow multiple pushes, so I'm content with that at the moment. I'd be interested in seeing what SA has to say on it though.

[R.Shackleford]

Yes, but it's done with the "Cast a Spell" action, which is a single action. You cannot move between EBs, so I'm not so sure that each hit would push a creature an additional 10'. The effect says "When you hit a creature with" not "for each hit you can". It's about as clear as Whirlwind Attack and moving, anyway. (Please, let's not go through that again)

Most people seem to allow multiple pushes, so I'm content with that at the moment. I'd be interested in seeing what SA has to say on it though.

Wrong.

You are using rules that don't relate to try and make up new rules.


"Agonizing Blast

Prerequisite: eldritch blast* cantrip

When you cast eldritch blast, add your Charisma modifier to the damage it deals on a hit."

The damage dealt by the Agonizing Blast EB has been confirmed to work off each blast. 1d10 + Cha for each one.


"Repelling Blast

Prerequisite: eldritch blast* cantrip

When you hit a creature with eldritch blast, you can push the creature up to 10 feet away from you in a straight line."

Repelling Blast uses the same wording of "hit" and not anything to do with what action is taken.

[WereRabbitz]

You can also keep most melee out of your range unless they dash just be knocking them 40ft back. E-Blast has is very nice, but like everyone has said combining it with other spells or teammates makes for some great fun.

Also think of how often a warlock is going to be casting your go to cantrip anyway? Anything that improves on that is a win.

[Sigreid]

Anything that lets you do damage AND do something else is worth a look.

Repelling blast lets you:

Move enemies away from squishy / ranged party members
Move enemies next to melee party members
Move enemies into bad things like fire and 10,000 foot drops
Move enemies so that a party member can get through the "line of mooks" and reach the "artillery" behind the line.
Move enemies so they are grouped for a party member's area of effect spell


Remember that 5e rewards party-level optimization as much or more than player-level optimization.

Don't forget things like if you are on a ship and you knock an enemy off the side you've more than likely killed him regardless of his HP.

Smashing apart a shield wall, extra good for creatures with some form of pack tactics.

And I think the most logical interpretation is that it's 10' per blast that hits, so up to 40'.

[Addaran]

Repelling Blast is extremely good. In the hands of a good player, it works wonder.

In most fights, it should buy you at least 1 round (most combat start with at least 30 feets between enemies) from the 1+ blast that connects. Since a bunch of enemies don't have ranged attacks or they are a lot worst, that's great.

Works well with continuous area damage spells. The good ones like spike growth, firewall, hunger of hadar, but even the very bad ones like bonfire or cloud of dagger. Putting the bonfire in a 10 feets wide hall between you and the enemies means they have to take a save to get to your team. Then you can possibly push them back again.

Pushing back enemies in control spells. If he's already taking half movement to get out of web, chances are he won't be far from it.

As soon as you have different levels in the stages, it's monstrous. There's a stair or ladder? You're pushing them back, probably for extra damage and negating their movement altogether if there's difficult terrain.

[Citan]

I think I've read folk mentioning how good or even overpowered Repelling Blast, the warlock evocation that let's your Eldritch Blast push whoever it hits 10 feet, is.

To me, this evocation looks almost useless.
So why is this good?

Since someone already summarized it perfectly...

Anything that lets you do damage AND do something else is worth a look.

Repelling blast lets you:

Move enemies away from squishy / ranged party members
Move enemies next to melee party members
Move enemies into bad things like fire and 10,000 foot drops
Move enemies so that a party member can get through the "line of mooks" and reach the "artillery" behind the line.
Move enemies so they are grouped for a party member's area of effect spell


Remember that 5e rewards party-level optimization as much or more than player-level optimization.
THIS. A thousand times THIS.

IMHO Repelling Blast is almost as good or better than Agonizing Blast.
Agreed. It works even more wonders as a multiclass with Rogue (Cunning Action) or Sorcerer (Haste), because it means it's easier to place yourself in the best position to push enemies the way you like it (since you cannot move between the rays).

[Asmotherion]

First 5 levels:
If you're playing the SorLock, look below. SorLocks are always one step ahead. Otherwise, you have a decent at will ability to move targets on hazards... hazards that can be caused by you, such as digging holes before the battle, or consistant AOEs such as Create Bonefire.

Mid game, if you have a wizard in the party, he can cast nice things like walls, and you simply, constantly push them back on those CAOE

End game, you can play your turn right after the party wizard casts Prismatic Wall (exactly 10 feet behind the enemie(s)) and then you both win the dammage dealing contest, effectivelly dealing 50d6+(1-4)d10+(1-4)d6(with hex) (×2 if a sorlock with quicken) dammage in 1 turn. This is dealt to 1-4 targets (or 1-8 for a sorlock), and can be repeated as much as needed, even in subsequent turns if you can teleport short range.
That+ the occasional hazzard the dm will set+ the fact that it is a super cool ability visually makes it such a popular option.

[Daphne]

Yes, pretty good. I would even say broken as it has no save. The only thing holding repelling blast is the lack of rules for how it interact with the environment, which makes it DM dependant.

[R.Shackleford]

Yes, pretty good. I would even say broken as it has no save. The only thing holding repelling blast is the lack of rules for how it interact with the environment, which makes it DM dependant.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean and which way you are taking it but I figured I would put this out there.

Eldritch Blast can't target objects :smallfurious:

(the mad face is at WotC)

[Daphne]

I'm not sure exactly what you mean and which way you are taking it but I figured I would put this out there.

Eldritch Blast can't target objects :smallfurious:

(the mad face is at WotC)

I know you can't target objects :smile:

What I'm talking about is how repelled target interacts with everything else: If there is a wall, does he break it? If there is a small rock behind him, does he tumble and fall to the ground? Does he ignores everything on the way?

The DM decides what happens and how it happens, that's why I said it's DM dependant.

[Elminster298]

Each blast is its own attack, that's 10' per blast last I checked... 10' to 40'...

This is true. I simply mentioned 10' as it would pertain to the situation I outlined. 40' against one opponent or 10' per attacker if you are facing multiple enemies and want to get away. However you look at it it can be a great disengage while still dealing damage.

[Sabeta]

I know you can't target objects :smile:

What I'm talking about is how repelled target interacts with everything else: If there is a wall, does he break it? If there is a small rock behind him, does he tumble and fall to the ground? Does he ignores everything on the way?

The DM decides what happens and how it happens, that's why I said it's DM dependant.

The implications of this are actually kind of humorous. My initial instinct if I were DMing would be to allow it to push non-anchored objects. This has interesting implications however because a decent sized boulder where most of it is underground cannot be pushed, but a Gargantuan Creature can. You cannot move or knock down a stone tower that has a foundation, but you could shove a walking city. In other words, Repelling Blast has enough force to knock around an Ancient Black Dragon but cannot blow over a stone house.

Needless to say, if my players ever decided that were enemies of structure then I may have to create rules for this kind of interaction. Perhaps allow EB to knock down 5 foot sections of stone walls if you roll above a walls AC and/or assigned HP to it that they have to get through as well.

[SharkForce]

i'm more bothered by the fact that eldritch blast literally cannot even be used on objects at all.

i mean, i can certainly understand the silliness involved in shoving, say, a dungeon wall 10 feet away, and wanting to prevent that. but why can't i use eldritch blast to, say, damage a door? break a lamp? punch holes in a rowboat? and so forth.

[Sabeta]

i'm more bothered by the fact that eldritch blast literally cannot even be used on objects at all.

i mean, i can certainly understand the silliness involved in shoving, say, a dungeon wall 10 feet away, and wanting to prevent that. but why can't i use eldritch blast to, say, damage a door? break a lamp? punch holes in a rowboat? and so forth.

Like I said before, if I had players wanting to practise their demolition skills I would just create some standard stat blocks for things like wood, stone, and perhaps iron. I probably wouldn't allow Repelling Blast to work on anchored structures, but I also don't see why you can't blast a door off its hinges or something.

[Gastronomie]

One "logical explanation" for how Eldritch Blast can't hit objects may be that the ray itself has a certain charasteristic that makes it similar to a tracking missile. It finds out any life forms nearby and guides itself towards it.

...But if the DM is to explain it like this, he should also prepare for the warlock shooting random Eldritch Blasts everywhere to find out where enemies are hiding...

[BurchardOfEn]

Rather Repelling Blast works wonders when you combine it with spells like Wall of Fire or Evard's Black Tentacles. Push an enemy into the area and laugh as he gets burned alive, or gets tentacle raped.

Now back to "Two Warlocks, a Prismatic Wall, and You."

[Sabeta]

One "logical explanation" for how Eldritch Blast can't hit objects may be that the ray itself has a certain charasteristic that makes it similar to a tracking missile. It finds out any life forms nearby and guides itself towards it.

...But if the DM is to explain it like this, he should also prepare for the warlock shooting random Eldritch Blasts everywhere to find out where enemies are hiding...

Force damage is the aspect of the Ethereal Plane. One could argue that so long as something has a semblance of a soul or spiritual presence then EB is capable of hitting it; however that wouldn't explain items with souls, monsters without souls or soul-like constructs. Chalk it up to "balance" I suppose.

[Citan]

I know you can't target objects :smile:

What I'm talking about is how repelled target interacts with everything else: If there is a wall, does he break it? If there is a small rock behind him, does he tumble and fall to the ground? Does he ignores everything on the way?

The DM decides what happens and how it happens, that's why I said it's DM dependant.
Yeah. I made some similar techniques in my homebrew, and found very difficult to draw the right line between what's "ruled" in the description and what's left up for the DM to decide.
At least when you want to make this push effect the main value of the technique: tell too little and there is a chance it will be useless because of a very restrictive DM. Tell too much and the DM may feel bound by it, thus feeling compelled to deny creative uses.

As for me personally, as a DM, if a creature were to hit a wall because of EB, I'd say that it takes additional damage at the minimum... But it would be arbitrarily decided how much, depending on many things (size of creature? armor? wall material?)
And if it was like a Giant crashing in a brick wall or such, I would probably consider he destroyed it partially (or at least roll a Dd20 with a low DC for "success").


i'm more bothered by the fact that eldritch blast literally cannot even be used on objects at all.

i mean, i can certainly understand the silliness involved in shoving, say, a dungeon wall 10 feet away, and wanting to prevent that. but why can't i use eldritch blast to, say, damage a door? break a lamp? punch holes in a rowboat? and so forth.
Agreed, that's a sad limitation we have on many spells. There must be a good reason for this, but I didn't find it. If anyone knows...

Like I said before, if I had players wanting to practise their demolition skills I would just create some standard stat blocks for things like wood, stone, and perhaps iron. I probably wouldn't allow Repelling Blast to work on anchored structures, but I also don't see why you can't blast a door off its hinges or something.
AFB for now but I'm pretty sure the DMG covers this, giving a base AC and hit points.

Force damage is the aspect of the Ethereal Plane. One could argue that so long as something has a semblance of a soul or spiritual presence then EB is capable of hitting it; however that wouldn't explain items with souls, monsters without souls or soul-like constructs. Chalk it up to "balance" I suppose.
Yeah, and that's annoying me very much that force is so tied up with "ethereal magic" fluff... ^^ But that's another story. XD

[Joe the Rat]

It's a feature shared by ray of frost and acid splash (and chill touch, but I think it makes sense there), but not firebolt (which explicitly calls out objects as a target option). Everything using spell slots in non-poison, non-radiant/necrotic attack-roll world just says "target". I'd need to run through EE, but I think Ice Knife requires a creature as target.

Is that a balance thing? Is using acid splash over and over to melt a door (as opposed to just hacking it down with weapons) over-stepping limits? Does it impact with non-casters / mundane attacks which can be used on anything and everything? barring a hereto unseen balance issue, I'm okay with attack rolls against mundane objects.

Specific to RepBlast and AgonRepBlast vs. mundane objects, I have a few ideas:

1) Nope. It's just magic missile with a crude guidance system. (RAW)
2) Blast everything to hell (full effect)
3) Agonizing does not apply to objects, the rest does (treating the invocation name literally)
4) Damage does not apply to objects, but repelling does (damage as effect on the soul/magic stuff of "creatures")
5) Damage to objects, repelling to creatures (force affects material, push is on soul/magic, which is why it ignores size and weight)
6) Damage as normal, Repelling affects magic items (#5 applying to magic items)
7) No effect on mundane items, Repelling affects magic items (#6 w/o mundane damage)
8) Magic item blaster (unattended magic items treated as creatures for targeting purposes)

Of these options, I'm most inclined to use #4 or #5 They each give EB a creepy factor - either a physical push that harms soul-ish things, or a crackly blast that pushes your soul around, which drags your body along for the ride. 6-8 I included for the thought exercise, but it effectively turns EB into a crude detect magic. (Blast the pile of loot and see which bits fly out. Oh crap, those were potions!)

[MaxWilson]

i'm more bothered by the fact that eldritch blast literally cannot even be used on objects at all.

i mean, i can certainly understand the silliness involved in shoving, say, a dungeon wall 10 feet away, and wanting to prevent that. but why can't i use eldritch blast to, say, damage a door? break a lamp? punch holes in a rowboat? and so forth.

Yes, it's silly. No, you don't have to enforce it as written. Otherwise the spell becomes an infallible mimic detector, among other things. "Blast that chest before you try to open it! If it moves, it's a mimic!"

[hymer]

Yes, it's silly. No, you don't have to enforce it as written. Otherwise the spell becomes an infallible mimic detector, among other things. "Blast that chest before you try to open it! If it moves, it's a mimic!"

To be fair, you can still do this with a bow and arrow, or even an axe. You just have to be willing to accept more collateral damage. :smallwink:

[Asmotherion]

I'm not sure exactly what you mean and which way you are taking it but I figured I would put this out there.

Eldritch Blast can't target objects :smallfurious:

(the mad face is at WotC)

It means that it can be implied that repelling blast can drop creatures prone (maybe with a dex save) since being forcefully pushed 10 feet is more than enough to make one fall. This could also mean that pushing targets on solid surfaces can cause 1d6 extra falling dammage to the target. And that a vertical, close range blast, could push the target 10 feet high (so falling dammage + dex save or fall prone) or speculations that a vertical downward blast could potentially plant the target 10 feet below the ground (realistically; on a soft surface such as sand or mud). It is my favorite ability on a warlock exactly because it can be so versalite.

[Sneak Dog]

It's a feature shared by ray of frost and acid splash (and chill touch, but I think it makes sense there), but not firebolt (which explicitly calls out objects as a target option). Everything using spell slots in non-poison, non-radiant/necrotic attack-roll world just says "target". I'd need to run through EE, but I think Ice Knife requires a creature as target.


Some examples that only target/damage creatures:
Call lightning, cloud of daggers, cone of cold, destructive wave, eldritch blast, erupting earth, flame strike, frostbite.

I feel like the creature target clause is more of a default targeting line than a thing to enforce. Of these especially destructive wave and erupting earth seem just silly.

[Klorox]

Repelling blast is awesome. I love the idea of adding control to the best and most common warlock attack!

Repelling blast is even better if its 10' per blast (as discussed earlier). I've seen DM's rule it both ways. I'm surprised this wasn't addressed by the official errata.

[Bloodcloud]

I think its good enough to build around it... I have this build I want to try, Vhuman Warlock13 Ftr(Eknight)7. Using crossbow expert and war caster, you just push around the enemies on the battlefield and keep close to them so they can't escape. Very controlly, and plenty of attacks to tick off hex.

[Citan]

Repelling blast is awesome. I love the idea of adding control to the best and most common warlock attack!

Repelling blast is even better if its 10' per blast (as discussed earlier). I've seen DM's rule it both ways. I'm surprised this wasn't addressed by the official errata.
Honestly, I didn't find yet a situation where ruling it as "each blast" would be overpowered. Instead, I like that it incites the player to be more creative in how he uses the environment to put the 40 feet push to good use (it also makes fun moments when, because of at least 1 attack failed, his great plan is twarthed and sometimes makes the situation worse than before).

For those who would be worried though, what seems to me a simple and balanced compromise would be: "repelling effect once max per creature". This way, you can still repel up to 4 creatures so you keep the control versatility, but you can no more push one single creature 40 feet.

[NNescio]

Honestly, I didn't find yet a situation where ruling it as "each blast" would be overpowered. Instead, I like that it incites the player to be more creative in how he uses the environment to put the 40 feet push to good use (it also makes fun moments when, because of at least 1 attack failed, his great plan is twarthed and sometimes makes the situation worse than before).

Quickened EB to the rescue! Granted, you need to be a Sorlock.

[Demonslayer666]

I've always wanted to drop Hunger of Hadar on the "bad" guys and push them back into it when they came out. That has not happened yet, but I am ever hopeful. :)

Repelling Blast depends a lot on your DM. If your battle board is always a terrain-less plane of white squares, it's only ok.

If your DM says no to it, it can be a lesson in frustration. My DM flat out says it does nothing sometimes, too often in my book; e.g. bigger creatures & climbing spiders - the two times it would have been very useful. Oh well. The other Invocation I would have taken is Eldritch Spear, but that would have been just as useless, so far anyway.

Overall, I have found it rather useless in the campaign I'm playing. If you get the opportunity, discuss it with your DM and see how they will handle it.

[Ralanr]

I think it's good simply because there is no saving throw for the push back.

That's stupid good utility.

[R.Shackleford]

It means that it can be implied that repelling blast can drop creatures prone (maybe with a dex save) since being forcefully pushed 10 feet is more than enough to make one fall. This could also mean that pushing targets on solid surfaces can cause 1d6 extra falling dammage to the target. And that a vertical, close range blast, could push the target 10 feet high (so falling dammage + dex save or fall prone) or speculations that a vertical downward blast could potentially plant the target 10 feet below the ground (realistically; on a soft surface such as sand or mud). It is my favorite ability on a warlock exactly because it can be so versalite.

I wasn't sure which way the post was going, not that I didn't understand this.

[RickAllison]

I wasn't sure which way the post was going, not that I didn't understand this.

My group dubbed that concept the "Crotch Rocket Halfling". Also great for launching your allies higher to get onto a ledge!

[Klorox]

I think it's good simply because there is no saving throw for the push back.

That's stupid good utility.

Yup. Add sorcerer for metamagic and/or fighter for action surge and you have an amazing one trick pony.

[Asmotherion]

Yup. Add sorcerer for metamagic and/or fighter for action surge and you have an amazing one trick pony.

I wouldn't call it a one trick ponny per say... Especially with Sorlock you can profit from that wile still being a full caster.

[NNescio]

I wouldn't call it a one trick ponny per say... Especially with Sorlock you can profit from that wile still being a full caster.

Well, a full caster who's at least 4 levels behind on his spell progression.

[Klorox]

Well, a full caster who's at least 4 levels behind on his spell progression.

Exactly. One trick pony might be a harsh label, but the character centers on casting and enhancing eldritch blast.

[Asmotherion]

Well, a full caster who's at least 4 levels behind on his spell progression.

I'd rather say 2 levels... that's merely 1 spell level below full caster and it gets compencated by lv 19

I don't know what the standard build for sorlock is, but I personally always make them only warlock 2 sorcerer x

[Vogonjeltz]

i'm more bothered by the fact that eldritch blast literally cannot even be used on objects at all.

i mean, i can certainly understand the silliness involved in shoving, say, a dungeon wall 10 feet away, and wanting to prevent that. but why can't i use eldritch blast to, say, damage a door? break a lamp? punch holes in a rowboat? and so forth.

Maybe this is what Eldritch Blast is like in cartoons when the big laser blasts only harm characters, but never the scenery. It does say it's crackling energy.

[Klorox]

I'd rather say 2 levels... that's merely 1 spell level below full caster and it gets compencated by lv 19

I don't know what the standard build for sorlock is, but I personally always make them only warlock 2 sorcerer x

"By level 19" isn't a very good argument (although you see it used all the time - this isn't an attack on you, Asmotherion), JMO. I haven't seen a game hit that point yet.

For the life of the character, you'll be far behind any full spellcaster. Whether or not you're okay with that is up to the player.

[HunterMarked]

Well it fires rays and each ray can push an opponent 10 feet back. I think it is a really good Invocation because it lets you control multiple enemies with a cantrip. Plus the synergy with any concentration aoe is insane. Check any entagle-spike growth thingy, lining up oppnents for better call lightings, any of your tentacle spells, etc.

That control value for any spammable cantrip is immence. Not even mentioning the defensive or terrain abuse cases.

[Asmotherion]

"By level 19" isn't a very good argument (although you see it used all the time - this isn't an attack on you, Asmotherion), JMO. I haven't seen a game hit that point yet.

For the life of the character, you'll be far behind any full spellcaster. Whether or not you're okay with that is up to the player.

Well that, +the type of campain you're playing + the dm rullings... pretty much a basic concept of "you loose something to win something... choose what is more important to you and go for it"

I am perfectly fine with waiting till lv19 to get access to wish etc, when I get an amazing standard attack option instead. That is because A) I value the consistant dammage output more, and B) I know I'll get there, because it's either going to be an npc when I dm, or I know that, in my group, we are fond of never ending scenarios that go well above 20th level. We had been playing a scenario for about 6 months after everyone was lv 20, and we like it.

[R.Shackleford]

"By level 19" isn't a very good argument (although you see it used all the time - this isn't an attack on you, Asmotherion), JMO. I haven't seen a game hit that point yet.

For the life of the character, you'll be far behind any full spellcaster. Whether or not you're okay with that is up to the player.

Everyone should at least once per month or once every other month play a high level one shot.

But I do agree, for the most part people don't play over level 8 or 10, so giving advice or answering stuff with the assumption of high level doesn't really work.

[Atalas]

Repelling Blast has many potential uses, and is really only limited by your own imagination, party make-up, and what the DM allows. I've only properly played Warlock once, and the DM allowed that if I knocked an enemy into something with so many feet of the forceback left, falling damage would be applied. Yet the same DM instituted realistic physics for what would be forced back. Like, an ogre may have been pushed back 2 feet, while an orc may get sent flying.

[SharkForce]

high level one-shot games sounds like not much fun to me. you don't get a chance to know what the character can really do, because you're not familiar with the character.

[R.Shackleford]

high level one-shot games sounds like not much fun to me. you don't get a chance to know what the character can really do, because you're not familiar with the character.

The point of the one shots is to learn what high level characters can do.... I mean... Your argument of high level one shots and their fun boils down to "I don't want to learn to ride a bike because I don't know how to ride a bike".

Edit

Also, it isn't like high level features are a secret, I mean, they are right in the book.

[SharkForce]

The point of the one shots is to learn what high level characters can do.... I mean... Your argument of high level one shots and their fun boils down to "I don't want to learn to ride a bike because I don't know how to ride a bike".

Edit

Also, it isn't like high level features are a secret, I mean, they are right in the book.

i'm saying i don't think that solution is going to be effective in teaching you what a high level character can do with anywhere near the effectiveness that growing into the character properly will. when you suddenly have 20-30 different possible spells to combine, chosen from a list of hundreds, and then you have to figure out the ways you can combine that with 3+ other characters who may each have their own similar number of abilities. it's why spellcasters (or monsters that have many abilities but are not strictly speaking spellcasters) are often difficult for DMs to run, while it is relatively straightforward to run most melee monsters that have one or maybe two abilities.

one-shots are not good for that sort of thing. they'll give you a starting point, but that's about all they'll give you... a starting point. if you want to get familiar with what a high level character can do, you're going to need an entire campaign. especially if you want to really understand the implications not just in a single fight or a single dungeon, but in an entire setting. for example, there's a world of difference between finger of death as used in a series of half a dozen fights, and finger of death as used in a combat as war game to gradually build up an army of several hundred undead minions that you then use as cannon fodder against a much stronger enemy. there's a huge difference between "i have enough components to use the symbol spell 3 times in this dungeon" and "i can either buy components for a symbol spell or save my money for something else that i'm going to need" (like a more reusable focus for certain spells, or adding spells to your spell book, or hiring mercenaries, building a stronghold, or maybe even buying magic items depending on the game), just like you wouldn't properly appreciate the material cost for, say, gylph of warding, if you didn't have someone in the party who's trying to save up for their extremely expensive suit of full plate at the same time.

one-shots aren't going to let you grow into the character properly. if you want to learn what a high-level character is like, play a high level campaign. preferably by starting from a lower level campaign, because that introduces new abilities a bit at a time, so that you can have more time to figure out how everything you have can interact.

[RickAllison]

i'm saying i don't think that solution is going to be effective in teaching you what a high level character can do with anywhere near the effectiveness that growing into the character properly will. when you suddenly have 20-30 different possible spells to combine, chosen from a list of hundreds, and then you have to figure out the ways you can combine that with 3+ other characters who may each have their own similar number of abilities. it's why spellcasters (or monsters that have many abilities but are not strictly speaking spellcasters) are often difficult for DMs to run, while it is relatively straightforward to run most melee monsters that have one or maybe two abilities.

one-shots are not good for that sort of thing. they'll give you a starting point, but that's about all they'll give you... a starting point. if you want to get familiar with what a high level character can do, you're going to need an entire campaign. especially if you want to really understand the implications not just in a single fight or a single dungeon, but in an entire setting. for example, there's a world of difference between finger of death as used in a series of half a dozen fights, and finger of death as used in a combat as war game to gradually build up an army of several hundred undead minions that you then use as cannon fodder against a much stronger enemy. there's a huge difference between "i have enough components to use the symbol spell 3 times in this dungeon" and "i can either buy components for a symbol spell or save my money for something else that i'm going to need" (like a more reusable focus for certain spells, or adding spells to your spell book, or hiring mercenaries, building a stronghold, or maybe even buying magic items depending on the game), just like you wouldn't properly appreciate the material cost for, say, gylph of warding, if you didn't have someone in the party who's trying to save up for their extremely expensive suit of full plate at the same time.

one-shots aren't going to let you grow into the character properly. if you want to learn what a high-level character is like, play a high level campaign. preferably by starting from a lower level campaign, because that introduces new abilities a bit at a time, so that you can have more time to figure out how everything you have can interact.

I will confirm that a single one-shot will do little to help a player learn about a level 20PC. I've tried and the players treats them like more powerful low-level PCs rather than using the varied abilities. I would recommend doing a one-shot campaign at those levels. Using the same characters (unless they want to switch) to solve Monster of the Week encounters rather than an in-depth world. Let them experiment around with the same character and see all of the things it has to offer over a period of time.

[R.Shackleford]

i'm saying i don't think that solution is going to be effective in teaching you what a high level character can do with anywhere near the effectiveness that growing into the character properly will. when you suddenly have 20-30 different possible spells to combine, chosen from a list of hundreds, and then you have to figure out the ways you can combine that with 3+ other characters who may each have their own similar number of abilities. it's why spellcasters (or monsters that have many abilities but are not strictly speaking spellcasters) are often difficult for DMs to run, while it is relatively straightforward to run most melee monsters that have one or maybe two abilities.

one-shots are not good for that sort of thing. they'll give you a starting point, but that's about all they'll give you... a starting point. if you want to get familiar with what a high level character can do, you're going to need an entire campaign. especially if you want to really understand the implications not just in a single fight or a single dungeon, but in an entire setting. for example, there's a world of difference between finger of death as used in a series of half a dozen fights, and finger of death as used in a combat as war game to gradually build up an army of several hundred undead minions that you then use as cannon fodder against a much stronger enemy. there's a huge difference between "i have enough components to use the symbol spell 3 times in this dungeon" and "i can either buy components for a symbol spell or save my money for something else that i'm going to need" (like a more reusable focus for certain spells, or adding spells to your spell book, or hiring mercenaries, building a stronghold, or maybe even buying magic items depending on the game), just like you wouldn't properly appreciate the material cost for, say, gylph of warding, if you didn't have someone in the party who's trying to save up for their extremely expensive suit of full plate at the same time.

one-shots aren't going to let you grow into the character properly. if you want to learn what a high-level character is like, play a high level campaign. preferably by starting from a lower level campaign, because that introduces new abilities a bit at a time, so that you can have more time to figure out how everything you have can interact.

Sure, if you say so.

But then again I've seen multiple old and new players learn high levels by doing a one shot once or twice a month.

Don't show up the day of with and build a character, put a bit of time and research into it.

High levels are quite simple and really nowhere near as complex as 3e/4e.

[Sneak Dog]

I will confirm that a single one-shot will do little to help a player learn about a level 20PC. I've tried and the players treats them like more powerful low-level PCs rather than using the varied abilities.
Isn't that what a high-level non-caster is? Most of them get their signature moves below level 10 and then just improve them, or gain some more minor features like the rogues blindsense.

[Asmotherion]

I really love long term scenarios that keep you going way after lv 20.

We've plaid two different aproaches to this:
A) To continue leveling up the character after lv 20, via multiclassing. To slow things down a bit we were awarded a class level only after 2 awards were taken (not using the xp system in that scenario rather than level up by awards).

There my character was like this:
Sorcerer 1
Warlock 2
Sorcerer 9
Barbarian 1
Sorcerer 7
Paladin 2
Wizard 18
Warlock 12
Bard 8

At lv 60 we finally stopped, as since lv 30 we were fighting the terrasque and hoards of dragons... It was fun for a time but ended up boring and unrealistic.


B) To simply amass awards and epic boons, and awarding +1 to a skill every level. again no xp system.

This was much more fun and wile it stoped some of the craziest ideas, players were aloud to discuss with the DM the boons they receved.

[Citan]

I really love long term scenarios that keep you going way after lv 20.

We've plaid two different aproaches to this:
A) To continue leveling up the character after lv 20, via multiclassing. To slow things down a bit we were awarded a class level only after 2 awards were taken (not using the xp system in that scenario rather than level up by awards).

There my character was like this:
Sorcerer 1
Warlock 2
Sorcerer 9
Barbarian 1
Sorcerer 7
Paladin 2
Wizard 18
Warlock 12
Bard 8

At lv 60 we finally stopped, as since lv 30 we were fighting the terrasque and hoards of dragons... It was fun for a time but ended up boring and unrealistic.


B) To simply amass awards and epic boons, and awarding +1 to a skill every level. again no xp system.

This was much more fun and wile it stoped some of the craziest ideas, players were aloud to discuss with the DM the boons they receved.
The first system... OMG! Must have been veeeery boring soon after level 30. After all, you get more class features and spells, but this doesn't change your strength fundamentally (ASI limitation to 20, once/day for higher spell slots, and you still get one action per turn and one spell per turn...).

The second system seems more fun indeed. :)

[Asmotherion]

The first system... OMG! Must have been veeeery boring soon after level 30. After all, you get more class features and spells, but this doesn't change your strength fundamentally (ASI limitation to 20, once/day for higher spell slots, and you still get one action per turn and one spell per turn...).

The second system seems more fun indeed. :)

I've also heard of a system where the player does not choose in what class he will take his next level rather than the DM choses based on in game choices. Seems cool I think if one wants a low optimisation system

[Hawkeyedan]

Just cast the cantrip Bonfire and keep pushing the creature in the Bonfire added 1d8 if your out of spell slots for use of Hex or if you want to preserve spell slots. Anguish Blast 1d10 x blast you have + charisma bonus + 1d8 fire damage

[Pex]

Anything that lets you do damage AND do something else is worth a look.

Repelling blast lets you:

Move enemies away from squishy / ranged party members
Move enemies next to melee party members
Move enemies into bad things like fire and 10,000 foot drops
Move enemies so that a party member can get through the "line of mooks" and reach the "artillery" behind the line.
Move enemies so they are grouped for a party member's area of effect spell


Remember that 5e rewards party-level optimization as much or more than player-level optimization.

This.

Warlocks cast Eldritch Blast a lot. At the very least having Repelling Blast keeps you from being bored doing the same thing over and over. It gives you strategic value to think over. Even though it's the same effect repeated each combat is different, so when and how you use it matters in different situations.

[diplomancer]

This makes me wonder. I know all attacks of Eldritch Blast happen simultaneously; but how does that work with Repelling Blast and melee disadvantage? Is it the only first attack that has disadvantage (assuming it hits), or is it all of them?

If it's the first attack only, it's really a great improvement (on top of all the other things others have mentioned). If you are Tome or Chain, you can get your Familiar to give you advantage, cancelling the disadvantage on that first one).

[BruceLeeroy]

I'm a very easy going DM, and I allow almost anything in the character creation. Go full Sorcadin, whatever.

Repelling Blast, on the other hand, gets nerfed at my table. Adding a Str save to it makes it just "okay", not an auto-pick. As written, in the hands of a semi-intelligent player, it's wildly broken.

[McSkrag]

Anything that lets you do damage AND do something else is worth a look.

Repelling blast lets you:

Move enemies away from squishy / ranged party members
Move enemies next to melee party members
Move enemies into bad things like fire and 10,000 foot drops
Move enemies so that a party member can get through the "line of mooks" and reach the "artillery" behind the line.
Move enemies so they are grouped for a party member's area of effect spell


Remember that 5e rewards party-level optimization as much or more than player-level optimization.

All of this ^

Speaking from the experience of playing a Hexblade with repelling blast all the way through the Avernus campaign, I can say it's incredibly tactically useful and fun. The fact that there is no save, no size limit, and you can repel 10' per blast is almost OP.

In addition to the above list, knocking enemies into AOE hazards like web, wall of fire, sickening radiance, Evard's tentacles, spirit guardians is very effective.

[micahaphone]

There's a reason the xanathar's invocations for pulling and slowing via EB stipulate only one activation per target - They learned from Repelling how OP it is to apply to all bolts!

[Kane0]

I think I've read folk mentioning how good or even overpowered Repelling Blast, the warlock evocation that let's your Eldritch Blast push whoever it hits 10 feet, is.

To me, this evocation looks almost useless. I can see it being decent if you're in melee, but then you're already at disadvantage to hit so that's a bad circumstance to find yourself in. It's also useful if you can push them onto a cliff or something, but that seems rare.

So why is this good, or was I just mistaken that such is a common opinion?

Speculation: at high level when you have several rays, hitting one person several times would be very good and possibly keep them from being able to get into melee range. Is that it?

If your DM provides interesting terrain, hazards and obstacles in combat encounters, yes it is good. It's got no save and pushes twice as far as a shove, you can do it at a very good range and can stack with itself as you level. You can push enemies away from closing with you or away from friendly party members who might need breathing room. It can also put enemies into nasty terrain or AoE spells, notably ones you or your party have set up like wall of fire and such.

If your combat encounters are mostly featureless arenas its appeal drops considerably, doubly so if you're usually confined to short ranges where the difference between 20' and 30' worth of movement is negligible.

[sithlordnergal]

Repelling Blast is more than good, its amazing, even on its own. That said, it shines when you're using team work or if there are environmental hazards. Even on its own, Repelling Blast has:


Forced movement that isn't limited by creature size, the only such forced movement in the game
The forced movement just happens, there's no save or ability check to resist it
The force movement occurs with every single hit. Meaning you can shove a creature up to 40 feet if you hit it 4 times, 80 feet if you're a Sorlock and Quicken it



The ability to force a creature to move with no check or save outside of your attack roll tacked onto a cantrip that can deal 1d10+Cha Mod per beam is exceptionally strong. However, it just gets better when you start working with allies. For example, have a Fighter knock your target Prone. Sure you're at disadvantage to shoot the creature, but you could shove them 20 feet away from your allies. They then have to spend half their movement to stand up, and then they'll probably have to Dash to get back to your Fighter friend.

It also lets you automatically break grapples on other creatures, since the Grappled condition ends if "...an effect removes the grappled creature from the reach of the grappler or grappling effect...". So say you're fighting a Giant Toad, and your Ranger buddy is hit by its Bite attack. You can free your Ranger by hitting the Giant Toad with Repelling blast, shoving back the Toad and automatically breaking the Grapple.

But honestly, the real fun comes from things like Spike Growth and other environmental effects. Spike Growth is particularly special here, since its damage happens from any movement, including Forced Movement. To make it even better, Forced Movement ignores Difficult Terrain. Meaning at level 5, your Druid buddy can set down a Spike Growth, then you could use Repelling Blast to deal 2d10+8d4+2*Cha Mod. Even if your charisma mod is just +3, that's an average of 37 damage. And now that enemy is potentially stuck in Spike Growth, meaning it has to either move and take more damage or use Ranged attacks.

[Jerrykhor]

This makes me wonder. I know all attacks of Eldritch Blast happen simultaneously; but how does that work with Repelling Blast and melee disadvantage?

That is not true. Contrast this with Magic Missile's text which actually says the darts strike simultaneously.

[Debaterinarms]

There's a reason the xanathar's invocations for pulling and slowing via EB stipulate only one activation per target - They learned from Repelling how OP it is to apply to all bolts!

This is also the reason those invocations are rarely picked and highly niche. They are honestly quite underwhelming. I have played a warlock in eight different campaigns and I have never taken either of those invocations but I have taken repelling blast often because it is not just fun but also useful and worth the opportunity cost. Not so for the XGE choices. I have also DMed for several warlock players and they have never taken those XGE invocations either. They aren't particularly worth it.

[diplomancer]

That is not true. Contrast this with Magic Missile's text which actually says the darts strike simultaneously.

Ah, good point; I mixed up the fact that you can't move between the beams (like when you're Attacking) and thought that meant they striked simultaneously. Thanks!

So, yes, one more benefit of Repelling Blast.

[KorvinStarmast]

This is also the reason those invocations are rarely picked and highly niche. They are honestly quite underwhelming. I have played a warlock in eight different campaigns and I have never taken either of those invocations but I have taken repelling blast often because it is not just fun but also useful and worth the opportunity cost. Not so for the XGE choices. I have also DMed for several warlock players and they have never taken those XGE invocations either. They aren't particularly worth it.
Played a one shot with a paladin 6 warlock 4. Team mate. That Grasp of Hadar invocation pulled an enemy off of their flying mount and dropped them to the ground for 7d6 damage. :smallbiggrin:
This allowed my monk to finally stop dodging and do a little damage to the miscreant who'd been slinging magical bolts at us from on high. Stunned the bastidge on the first blow, and after that it was all over but the shredding.

Sometimes, it's just right.

[Valmark]

Played a one shot with a paladin 6 warlock 4. Team mate. That Grasp of Hadar invocation pulled an enemy off of their flying mount and dropped them to the ground for 7d6 damage. :smallbiggrin:
This allowed my monk to finally stop dodging and do a little damage to the miscreant who'd been slinging magical bolts at us from on high. Stunned the bastidge on the first blow, and after that it was all over but the shredding.

Sometimes, it's just right.

Wouldn't it have been the same with Repelling Blast though? Or did the monk need the enemy closer?

[MaxWilson]

Wouldn't it have been the same with Repelling Blast though? Or did the monk need the enemy closer?

In the context of this (necro'ed? but apparently someone must have asked a mod before re-opening the thread because no one has shown up to shut it down) thread, a story about when Grasp of Hadar was awesome also illustrates how Repelling Blast is awesome.

[micahaphone]

I've gotten some use out of Lance of Lethargy (the slowing invocation) - pushing someone 20 feet and reducing their speed by 10 ft is a nice setback, but I did swap it out for other invocations later so yeah I can't glowingly recommend it.

[Yakmala]

My Dao Genie Tomelock loves Repelling Blast.

1: Cast Spike Growth on target(s).
2: Knock them back through the spikes with Repelling Blast.
3: If need be, pull them back through again with Thorn Whip (via Pact of the Tome). Alternately you can pick up Grasp of Hadar.

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Repelling Blast is not effective against necromancy.

If anyone wishes to continue the discussion in a new thread with a link back to thos thread, that is perfectly acceptable. Please note that moderators will always explicitly note when a thread that would otherwise run afoul of the necromancy rules has been authorized for new discussion.