Never played a casting class before, looking for Cleric advice.

[WalkingTarget]

I'm starting in an ongoing Pathfinder game soon (I'm coming in at level 9). The group as it's been described to me is in need of a healer and/or a flanking buddy for the fighter/rogue. I've been developing a melee build Cleric to try to fill both party gaps.
What I have so far, the GM is generous with rolled stats (4d6 drop low, roll 7 times keep best 6) and I wound up with the following (including Dwarf and level-based stat adjustments):
STR 18
DEX 12
CON 16
INT 14
WIS 18
CHA 11

Feats: Power Attack, Combat Casting, Heavy Armor Proficiency (and a few crafting-type feats for character reasons - Scribe Scroll and Craft Magic Arms and Armor)
Deity - Torag (granting proficiency with Warhammers)
Domains - Artifice and the Defense sub-domain of Protection.
Full plate and heavy shield put my basic AC at 22. I've been told to just pick normal gear for now and that the GM will work with me to get kitted out with magic items at some point, so I'm not looking at WBL guidelines at the moment.

So, with what I've got going so far I'm imagining a secondary-melee threat/meatshield to tie up enemies while the squishier PCs do their thing but also give some buffs and heal as needed. I'm looking for obvious mistakes/dead-ends I've gotten myself into so far. Beyond that, I'm looking for advice in spell load-outs for various situations. I've played some D&D-related games in the past, but I've generally stuck with martial classes rather than magic ones. I've looked for online for builds already, but most of the ones for "battle clerics" tend to be a bit more single-minded on pushing out damage to the point where they're starting with different assumptions on deity/domains/alignment.

I personally only have ready access to the Core Rules and the Advanced Player's Guide - I don't remember what other books the GM has (I know he recently got Ultimate Intrigue, but I can't imagine there's much in there for my Cleric). From what it sounds like, it's probable that anything in the online SRDs that's not third-party stuff is acceptable.

[Arbane]

What's the rest of the party?

Spells I think are worth using a lot:
(Communal) Protection from Evil: For the anti-mind-control effect. You're at the levels where it starts becoming REALLY relevant.
Blessing of Fervor: Like Haste. only holy.
Freedom of Movement: Paralyze will ruin your whole day.
Hold Person: It will also ruin your enemy's whole day.
Liberating Command: So will Grapple.
Prayer: It's not flashy, but it gives your side +1 to practically everything, and your enemies -1 to the same everythings.
Greater Forbid Action: Order all your opponents not to move/attack/cast spells.... fun for your whole team!
Air Walk: Like Fly, but slower.
Dispel Magic: Good against other spellcasters, and any potion-abusing foes.
Bull's Strength: Until you get a +Str belt, or to slap on the Fighter when they need it.
Shield of Faith: More AC never hurts.
Divine Favor: Neither does more to-hit and damage.

If you don't mind playing Twenty Questions with the GM, Augury/Divination/Commune can be quite useful.

[WalkingTarget]

Thanks.

I know one guy is a fighter/rogue (I don't remember what ratio) and is the only real melee person (thus needing a flanking buddy).

I know that there's a witch and I want to say another caster - sorcerer maybe? Nothing that grants healing magic as they have been operating off of potions for a while.

Sorry, I am trying to remember the party description I got verbally from like a month ago (and it involved a convoluted reincarnation thing - I know the witch wasn't always a witch) and which players are still part of the group (they had some recent attrition which is why there's a slot for me to join in the first place). I'll see if I can get an actual rundown from somebody.

[Elder_Basilisk]

Equipment. Technically, having a heavy shield and a weapon makes it difficult to cast spells (weapon in one hand, shield in the other=no somatic components). A lot of DMs ignore that (like a lot ignore encumbrance) but I would recommend going with a buckler rather than a heavy shield to avoid issues.

I wouldn't bother with combat casting. You should be able to avoid casting defensively most of the time. Instead, I'd get Quicken Spell. A quickened Divine Favor is a big upgrade to your combat ability.

As far as spells go, since you are missing any magic equipment, you will want to make up for it somehow. To start with, I recommend:
Greater Magic Weapon: apply to your warhammer for a +2 warhammer
Magic vestment: apply to your shield and armor for +2 shield and +2 armor.

Quickened divine favor to help you lay the smack down quickly.
Righteous Might for when quick isn't needed
Bless because it's a first level slot, so you might as well give everyone +1 to hit.
Delay poison because it lasts nearly forever and is only a second level spell slot
Magic Circle vs Evil because 90 minutes is a long time and you get a deflection bonus to AC and resistance bonus to saves out of it. (Maybe a bit redundant for you due to domain powers. But it will still keep evil summoned creatures away.
If non-core spells are an option, communal resist energy is a huge upgrade over regular resist energy. It translates to "your one element monster just got nerfed to oblivion." Always prep one if you can.
Freedom of Movement is a great defense against monsters with Improved Grab.

[WalkingTarget]

Equipment. Technically, having a heavy shield and a weapon makes it difficult to cast spells (weapon in one hand, shield in the other=no somatic components). A lot of DMs ignore that (like a lot ignore encumbrance) but I would recommend going with a buckler rather than a heavy shield to avoid issues.

I noticed that since my original post. Still waiting to hear back from the DM regarding how he wants to handle shields.


I wouldn't bother with combat casting. You should be able to avoid casting defensively most of the time. Instead, I'd get Quicken Spell. A quickened Divine Favor is a big upgrade to your combat ability.

See, this is the kind of feat mistake/trap I was worried about. Thanks.


As far as spells go, since you are missing any magic equipment, you will want to make up for it somehow. To start with, I recommend:
Greater Magic Weapon: apply to your warhammer for a +2 warhammer
Magic vestment: apply to your shield and armor for +2 shield and +2 armor.

I will have magic gear, I just don't know what it is yet. I'll keep these and the rest you mention in mind, though. Thanks a bunch.

[Eldariel]

You're level 9 so you already have access to Magic Vestment and Greater Magic Weapon. This increases your AC by +4 (cast on both, armor and shield) and to hit/damage by +2/+2. You can bestow these gifts upon party members should they give you spell slot granting items in compensation (so that you can afford to prepare other stuff too). Both last for hours per level. Righteous Might is a wonderful combat spell giving you reach (or superreach if you wield a reach weapon such as Guisarme), significant stat bonuses and of course size category bonuses to everything (plus natural armor and damage reduction).

Quickened Divine Favor is indeed wonderful. First round/surprise round, cast both and wade into battle in your superbuff state. You could even use Divine Power instead of Divine Favor later; it carries the Haste boons in addition to the other stuff.


I'd consider being a Neutral Cleric and channeling negative energy. It's a bit different and gives you access to Undead (convenient things for facetanking), makes your Damage Reduction from Righteous Might DR/Good (few enemies indeed have Good weapons in your average game), etc. You'll lose the ability to spontaneously convert Cure spells but that's fine; you shouldn't really be doing that anyways. Disable the enemies, heal between combat. You can use Wand of Cure Light Wounds to that end - 750gp for 275 HP worth of out of combat healing. Very affordable, have the party buy 'em with you. Infernal Healing works too and is even more efficient but takes a bit longer to heal.

Other than that, consider preparing some summons (Pathfinder Summons rock) and save-or-die/battlefield control spells (Plane Shift, Wall of Stone, Slay Living, etc.). Heal is a great in-combat healing spell that you get on character level 11 so that's something to look forward to. Also, Magic Circle Against Alignment is a nice tool to have up at all times and you should keep a reserve of spells like Freedom of Movement & Death Ward for when they're needed (scrolls work just fine, though preparing one once isn't a bad idea either).

From lower level spells, I'd like to highlight Shatter (spell component pouches and such) and Silence (area effect allows no save, shut down most enemy casters in a wide area with a prepared action). There are other good ones but those are real gems and ones to keep in mind. Also, Resist Energy scales nicely with levels; always keep such spells in mind.


If the Shield is an issue, you can always get a Glove of Storing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/e-g/glove-of-storing) for its free action options of emptying your hand and then rearming yourself (use it with your weapon).

EDIT: You even have access to Combat Expertise > Improved Trip > Greater Trip thanks to your great Int. That's a rather strong option with 20' reach even in PF.

[Sayt]

If you're going to brew mixing up in melee, I'd strongly consider warpriest for the action economy advantages it offers, on the other hand it does lose out on the more powerful spells.

Also to be honest, I'd stick with medium armour, as I don't think +2 AC is hugely relevant when you have spell sources of AC to make up for it.l, and I think you'd get better mileage out of Improved Initiative.

[Pex]

If you're going to use Power Attack, could you be ok with changing one of your other feats to Furious Focus? Since you're not a full BAB class the additional penalty to hit with Power Attack will have you miss a lot despite Divine Favor. Furious Focus lets you Power Attack on your first swing at no penalty. You still get the penalty for all other attacks, so you're no worse off than you were but landing that first hit will mean something. When you move more than a 5 ft step or charging you're only getting one attack anyway so then it's a net win. Combat Casting might be the one since you're more likely wanting to pre-buff and once you're in combat want to keep swinging instead of casting but perhaps a crafting feat can wait until 11th level?

I second Blessing of Fervor. Your party will love you, and you'll love yourself. I find it a more efficient use of the slot than Divine Power, and it will stack with Divine Favor.

Another spell to consider is Grace. It's a 2nd level spell that's a swift action to cast allowing you to move without provoking an attack of opportunity for moving. Very handy to move about the battlefield when you need to.

If you intend to Channel Energy during combat you need the "feat tax" of Selective Channeling. If you're not planning to and only maybe as an emergency, then not having it is fine.

[avr]

Torag's got a few specific rules which are to your advantage. First you can prepare a couple of unusual spells - not usually a big deal, but check the bottom of this page (http://archivesofnethys.com/DeityDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Torag). With any feat from 5th level you could pick up blessed hammer (http://archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Blessed%20Hammer) which lets you hit someone with a warhammer and a bestow curse spell (for example) at the same time. Last there are a few spells specific to Torag and his family which you can prepare, e.g. fallback strategy (http://archivesofnethys.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Fallback%20Strategy) for Torag himself, or bloodsworn retribution (http://archivesofnethys.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Bloodsworn%20Retributio n) for one of his family - you need to spend an extra hour preparing one of the latter kind, and bloodsworn retribution in particular won't be available to you until 11th level, but don't forget it.

[Droopy McCool]

Just wanted to pop in and say you should consider switching those Int and Cha scores. A higher charisma will help with channeling, one of the big reasons you're joining the party. Switching puts you from 3, uses to 4, and while one more isn't much it makes a difference. In my current game, I'm playing a Cleric/Paladin focused on charisma, and I go through all of my 6 channels in one adventuring day to save on spells.

Plus, who needs smarty-pants when you're a wisea**?

McCool

[WalkingTarget]

More great suggestions everyone.

I found that the party is a fighter/rogue/assassin, the witch, and two sorceresses (dunno all the specializations, but one is acting as a guide at least).

Grace and blessing of fervor are indeed amazing, I hadn't gotten to the APG spell list before.

Regarding increasing CHA, I wanted the higher INT for skill points, but I'll think about it.

[Topaz]

I've been playing my first PF Cleric in a kind of similar niche. I recognize a lot of the things being advised (and am taking notes on others) but I wanted to add that you shouldn't discount Spiritual Ally. You get a decent extra flanking buddy that's hard for a lot of likely opposition to get rid of for those times when you need to be elsewhere on the board but don't want to leave the Fighter hanging (or the Fighter is busy elsewhere and you could use a flanking buddy for yourself) and unlike a Summon Monster it's a Standard Action to cast and Medium ranged.

I've ended up using it (and Spiritual Weapon) so much that I'm planning on taking the Spiritual Guardian Feat at 9th level (which we should hit early next session).

[Troacctid]

I would personally recommend warpriest (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/warpriest) instead of cleric. You give up some of your casting power, but you're you're much better at brawling, and you still heal just fine.

[Randomthom]

Just as a left-of-field alternative, you could play a druid and have your animal companion be the flanking component you need. Still brings the healing and the flanking, just with a different flavour.

[Arbane]

Sorry to state what might be the obvious, but you should try to get hold of a Wand of Cure Light Wounds at the earliest opportunity (get your teammates to chip in on it), and use that for healing instead of your own spell-slots.
(Optimizers here say it's usually better to heal outside of fights, since inside of one you can't heal faster than people get hurt (until you get Heal), so the spell's low level usually isn't an issue.)

[WalkingTarget]

Sorry to state what might be the obvious, but you should try to get hold of a Wand of Cure Light Wounds at the earliest opportunity (get your teammates to chip in on it), and use that for healing instead of your own spell-slots.
(Optimizers here say it's usually better to heal outside of fights, since inside of one you can't heal faster than people get hurt (until you get Heal), so the spell's low level usually isn't an issue.)

Yeah, I've been around enough discussions here to be familiar with that as a concept and hope that it will fly with the group/DM.

[Elder_Basilisk]

(Optimizers here say it's usually better to heal outside of fights, since inside of one you can't heal faster than people get hurt (until you get Heal), so the spell's low level usually isn't an issue.)

That's more than a little misleading. A better way to say that is that it is often better to heal outside of a fight and that you always want to have another effective way to contribute by using your standard actions in combat.

A. You can often heal faster than people get hurt before heal if you have the healing domain. Not that it's the best domain in the world, but an empowered cure critical wounds will often heal more than one round's worth of damage when you're at level 7-9, etc. And guess what, it's still not necessarily the best use of your action.

If the fighter still has 40 hp and is only facing 5-10 incoming hp per turn, even if you can heal 30 hp (apparently he had good hp rolls or is running with some rage hp) and negate six rounds of enemy actions, it's not a good idea. The fighter is going to survive just fine so that you can apply the wand after the fight and your actions can end the fight sooner so that less total healing is required. And you will still have the 30hp heal left if you need it next fight.

The tactical situation is what determines whether in combat healing is worthwhile, not the ability to "keep up" with monster damage.

B. When the party has an action advantage, it can often be a good tactical decision to heal even if you only keep pace with the damage coming in (or even if you can't). For an example from a PFS scenario I played recently, our party (tier 7-8) ran into a group of Divs with DR 10/good and cold iron. My cleric had a bless weapon prepped (domain spell), so after considering putting it on my bow or the hunter's bow, I put it on the bloodrager's nodachi so he could carve through the DR. That gave us one character who was putting a hurt on the Divs, a wolf companion who could still deal worthwhile damage through the DR (greater magic fang, strong jaw, and aura of heroism), a hunter who could potentially nickel and dime them with a few points of damage that made it past DR, and my cleric who could also nickel and dime them or try Holy Smite or Spear of Purity and take a chance on getting through SR. The bloodrager was taking 24-40 points of damage per round and was one round from being in rage hit points (or dead if there was a crit or the dice fell the divs' way). So I hit him with a cure critical that ended up being subpar at 24 points. Barely keeping up with incoming damage. Nonetheless, it gave him an extra round and that was enough to finish the div and move to the next one and save the NPC we needed to save.

Had he not been healed, trading a single attack for the Div's full attack would have been a much more risky move and if it didn't work out for us, we would have been SoL for the fight. But as it was, I used my action to heal and negated one of the Div's actions. Very worthwhile because we needed to waste one round of Div actions in order to win and my alternatives weren't very appealing.

Anecdote is not the singular of data, but it is not a particularly unusual situation. A similar situation will often come up when one PC is absorbing the attention of a solo style monster. Just giving an extra round or even a half-round of survival can make a big difference. Playgrounders often speak as though in-combat healing is never a good idea and the ability to have level appropriate in-combat healing is irrelevant. That is wrong.

[WalkingTarget]

Thanks for the advice everybody. We had our first session with my character last week and it went pretty well. We were down a player and this was the first session in several months for this group so it was kind of just a recap of events and finagling a way to get me into the party, which was fun as always.

We rolled some random gear for me to start, just weapon and armor. Wound up with a +2 Warhammer of Flaming Burst, a standard +1 Buckler, and (to the GM's astonishment of how good it was) a set of full plate with the Fortification special.

I also rolled some numbers for potions that I could have acquired in my time adventuring - I get to pick a level 1, two level 2, and two level 3 potions. Since I also have Scribe Scroll he's ruled that I can have a reasonable number of scrolls that I've prepared ahead of time for spells that I can cast.

Suggestions on those? I had some initial thoughts for the potions, but I realize that I don't have my notes with me. I want to say that Fly, Invisibility, and Heroism were ones I had come up with as basic utility options, but forget the rest.

For scrolls I was thinking to have at least one Raise Dead, but then things like Restoration or other things that could be useful to have ready, but possibly not necessary for day-to-day preparation.

[Eldariel]

I'm not certain if you're aware but I'll point this out in case: your Fullplate needs to be +1 to have ability enhancements (not sure if it is; it didn't become apparent in the description). All magic arms and armor follow the same rule: they have to be magical (+1) before any abilities can be applied to them. Relevant SRD passage: "...Magic armor or a magic shield must have at least a 1 enhancement bonus to have any armor or shield special abilities. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items#TOC-Creating-Magic-Armor)" As for the items you got: far as value goes, that's slightly above the average level 9 wealth by level.

However, at the same time, it's probably okay. Most of that is more or less wasted on you. Thanks to the existence of Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment, getting anything higher than +1 on the enhancements is a waste. Indeed, right now you can't get any real benefit of casting Greater Magic Weapon on your Warhammer before you hit caster level 12 (since the enhancement is identical and they'd just overlap). And Fiery Burst is not a great Warhammer-enhancement as Warhammer has crit stats of 20/x3; rare enough to get the benefit. You'd certainly be more interested in wondrous items (stat boosters to your casting stat, caster level boosters, pearls of power to refresh your daily item slots, extradimensional spaces such as Handy Haversack, etc.) but of course, you'll be just fine as it stands.

Still, that's a +4 weapon, +1 shield and +4 armor (assuming it's Moderate Fortifications and it has the +1 base). Or 32k + 1k + 16k = 49k whereas the average wealth by level (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/character-advancement) for character level 9 is 46k so those items alone are worth more (and then you have your potions and scrolls and hopefully/probably wondrous items). But as I said, it's not that likely to cause problems here as you could replicate those effects anyways.


Far as scrolls go, Scroll of Raise Dead wouldn't be my first choice. Though certainly, carry the material components needed for it. You can always just prepare it the next day (it's a 5th level spell and you're level 9). There's generally no real hurry with that thing's cast time. Scrolls of the more rare, but key effects tend to be nice: Restoration is indeed good. The level 3 Removes though, unless you're up against very specific foe you're aware of those are almost never worth preparing but having scrolls of Remove Blindness+Deafness is a given (those conditions can be permanent and it doesn't take a genius to figure out that fighting blind is somewhat difficult). Remove Curse and Remove Disease are the kind of stuff that would normally be ideal for scrolls but they both require caster level checks for many effects and high caster level scrolls are expensive, so while you might as well keep Scrolls around, it might be that you'll need to prepare them manually the next day to get rid of such conditions.

As a general rule, aim for:
- Spells you will need post-haste
- Spells that don't care about caster level
- Spells that have a huge impact where they are needed

Silence is a good spell to have a Scroll of in case you need it when you're out of castings for the day. Shatter isn't horrible either. It might be worth your while to carry a backup Righteous Might in case you end up in a fight where you have none prepared. Freedom of Movement and Death Ward could both likewise be useful. And from the next spell level (if you've gotten help from your superiors granting the spell), a scroll of Heal is the ultimate catch-all "Need you back on your feet, NOW!"-effect.

[Elder_Basilisk]

Suggestions on those? I had some initial thoughts for the potions, but I realize that I don't have my notes with me. I want to say that Fly, Invisibility, and Heroism were ones I had come up with as basic utility options, but forget the rest.

For scrolls I was thinking to have at least one Raise Dead, but then things like Restoration or other things that could be useful to have ready, but possibly not necessary for day-to-day preparation.

Scrolls and potions fill two roles:

1. Things that are very useful to have when you need them but you don't necessarily plan on preparing regularly. Raise dead is expensive (due to the material component) but falls into this category.

Other examples: Restoration, lesser restoration, remove blindness, remove disease, remove paralysis, remove fear, remove curse, invisibility purge, air walk, align weapon, resist energy (preferably communal resist energy), water walking, water breathing, remove poison, delay poison.

2. Things that you might run out of and want a backup for:

Cure light wounds (if you don't have a wand), freedom of movement, bless, magic circle vs evil, protection from evil.

Potions. Daylight belongs in potion (oil) form. If you want it, it's probably dark so you might not be able to read a scroll. Potions of fly (not on your spell list so you can't do a scroll--if you did, the best you could do would be Air Walk and that won't always get the job done) and cure serious wounds are also good (it's the best cure potion you can get--still not great at your level but you might as well have the best). Potions of lesser restoration deserve a special mention because they just take a standard action to drink rather than 3 rounds to cast. They let you remove ability penalties and fatigue much more quickly than the alternatives. Oil of bless weapon is also worth considering as an alternative to scrolls of align weapon. It's not as flexible (since it only aligns your weapon good--not chaotic or lawful) but you usually want good anyway, it provides a secondary effect (automatic crit confirmation vs evil), and it's cheaper (100gp vs 150gp).

[WalkingTarget]

The armor does have an enhancement bonus, I forget how high, but it has one. I just forgot to note it.

Thanks for the feedback on the scroll/potion options. Mostly in-line with how I thought about them, but I'll take another pass on things when I have my notes in front of me.