Crafting armor

[ZenBear]

I'm not very familiar with any rules about crafting in 5e, but I'm curious about how a blacksmith might craft their own suit of plate armor over time? We fight a lot of enemies with armor of various kinds, and if I could cannibalize theirs piecemeal I might gather enough materials to make my own plate armor at a reduced cost, if any. Would this require smith's tools skill checks? Intelligence based? How many, and to what success/failure? How would one go about enchanting it? Would being a smith matter or would one have to be an Artificer?

[Gastronomie]

Page 187 of the PHB explains the "crafting" rules.

-You must be proficient with tools related to the object you are trying to create
-You might also need access to special materials or locations necessary to create it
-For every day of downtime you spend crafting, you can craft one or more items with a total market value not exceeding 5 gp, and you must expend raw materials worth half the total market value
-You can repeat this for many days to reach your final goal of GP, finishing the item
-Multiple people with proficiency can help, adding 5 gp per day per person
-While crafting, you can expend less money on your daily lifestyle

But these rules are really randomly created. Perhaps asking your DM is the best option.

[ZenBear]

Page 187 of the PHB explains the "crafting" rules.

Thanks for the quote. I'm also interested in how the Playgrounders interpret these rules. How would you guys run it if a player at your table asked the question?

[Rusvul]

I've never liked the D&D assumption that more expensive things are harder/take longer to make. It sort of falls apart when a single flask of alchemist's fire takes an inordinate amount of time.

I would (and this is a ruling more or less ignoring the oversimplified written rules) assign a DC of sorts to the item based on how difficult or time consuming it is to create- Let's say 720 for full plate. Each day a smith works, they roll a Proficiency check (with Constitution or perhaps Wisdom) and add their total towards the DC- assuming an average total of 12.5 (10.5 + proficiency), a smith with average skill and no natural aptitude would take about two months. (I have no idea how historically accurate this is, adjust to taste.) Additional helpers can either add bonuses to the roll if they're forge workers (+1 for each, capped at some reasonable limit), if they're smiths working on a separate piece of armor then they get their own roll. With several smiths working at once, each with a number of apprentices, the time could be reduced to just a few days.

Or you could just say 'two months, less if you have help' and be done with it. Whatever works in your game.

I use a system like this for many things in my games that require gradual progress, learning languages in particular.

[ZenBear]

I've never liked the D&D assumption that more expensive things are harder/take longer to make. It sort of falls apart when a single flask of alchemist's fire takes an inordinate amount of time.

I would (and this is a ruling more or less ignoring the oversimplified written rules) assign a DC of sorts to the item based on how difficult or time consuming it is to create- Let's say 720 for full plate. Each day a smith works, they roll a Proficiency check (with Constitution or perhaps Wisdom) and add their total towards the DC- assuming an average total of 12.5 (10.5 + proficiency), a smith with average skill and no natural aptitude would take about two months. (I have no idea how historically accurate this is, adjust to taste.) Additional helpers can either add bonuses to the roll if they're forge workers (+1 for each, capped at some reasonable limit), if they're smiths working on a separate piece of armor then they get their own roll. With several smiths working at once, each with a number of apprentices, the time could be reduced to just a few days.

Or you could just say 'two months, less if you have help' and be done with it. Whatever works in your game.

I use a system like this for many things in my games that require gradual progress, learning languages in particular.

I like that process of slowly progressing to a very high DC with consecutive, stacking checks. Would you consider allowing one to start with chainmail and over time as you hit various thresholds increase the AC until it becomes full plate?

[Shaofoo]

The DMG I believe has some suggestions on how to handle crafting (especially magic item crafting) but since that is up to the DM to decide they can't really be called rules anymore than you can call the spell point variant a rule.

Basically if you want anything more complex than what you have in the PHB then ask your DM and "No way" is a very valid answer too.

[Rusvul]

I like that process of slowly progressing to a very high DC with consecutive, stacking checks. Would you consider allowing one to start with chainmail and over time as you hit various thresholds increase the AC until it becomes full plate?

Hmm... Probably, yeah, at least a little bit. I'd say let it count as half-plate when you were half done, so 360/720? I suppose you could do more gradual AC progression, but I think that'd be more trouble than it's worth. Also wearing partially complete armor is definitely cause for disadvantage on Stealth checks and possibly an increased STR requirement (I'd imagine that weight distribution would be worse).

[Sigreid]

I'm of the belief that the decided they had to have crafting rules for it to be a complete game, but couldn't be bothered by it. There's some weird stuff in there like you can't just work on the things you want. By default if you are making what you want, you are also assumed to be making and selling stuff to maintain a lifestyle? There are no rules for an herbalist, for example to go find his/her own plants?

No, I don't think they really fussed about crafting in the slightest. Any table that wants to really get into crafting will need to come up with their own thoughts on it.

Oh, and for part of the OP question, there's really no reason at all you can't re-smelt the metal from the weapons and armor of fallen enemies. Metal is endlessly reusable that way.

[RickAllison]

I'm of the belief that the decided they had to have crafting rules for it to be a complete game, but couldn't be bothered by it. There's some weird stuff in there like you can't just work on the things you want. By default if you are making what you want, you are also assumed to be making and selling stuff to maintain a lifestyle? There are no rules for an herbalist, for example to go find his/her own plants?

No, I don't think they really fussed about crafting in the slightest. Any table that wants to really get into crafting will need to come up with their own thoughts on it.

Oh, and for part of the OP question, there's really no reason at all you can't re-smelt the metal from the weapons and armor of fallen enemies. Metal is endlessly reusable that way.

My wizard took a bunch of metal and a crowbar we looted from some enemies to Fabricate his new armor (he has smithing proficiency). Makes for much more efficient use of space.

[Sigreid]

My wizard took a bunch of metal and a crowbar we looted from some enemies to Fabricate his new armor (he has smithing proficiency). Makes for much more efficient use of space.

Yes, fabricate gets around the crappy crafting rules just lovely.

[RickAllison]

Yes, fabricate gets around the crappy crafting rules just lovely.

Heck, an embroidered silk handkerchief is worth 25 gp according to the DMG, a square yard of silk (large enough for 9 handkerchiefs) is 10 gp. So that means that even selling at half price (except these are art pieces which are supposed to sell for full price according to the PHB), we make a profit of 102.5 GP per square yard of silk. Since this isn't a mineral, we can make a 10'X10'X10' cube, which can hold 9 silk yards per layer. Basically, the only limit on how much gold you make from this is how much silk you have and how many people will buy incredibly artistic embroidered silk handkerchiefs.

We can also look at a kimono for pricing. Kimonos would roughly fit the bill for the silk robes in the 250 gp art pieces in the DMG, and were 36 cm by 11.5 m, which comes out to 4.14 square meters or 5 (well 4.95, but that extra should cover thread expenses) square yards of silk. So a 250 gp robe that costs 50 gp and (especially if it is shown to be fashionable) could have noblewomen desiring multiple, and ever-increasing in complexity, gowns. Remember that while arts like embroidery and lace were expensive due to the great amounts of effort going into it, a wizard with Fabricate can do so just as easily as a regular item.

[Sigreid]

Heck, an embroidered silk handkerchief is worth 25 gp according to the DMG, a square yard of silk (large enough for 9 handkerchiefs) is 10 gp. So that means that even selling at half price (except these are art pieces which are supposed to sell for full price according to the PHB), we make a profit of 102.5 GP per square yard of silk. Since this isn't a mineral, we can make a 10'X10'X10' cube, which can hold 9 silk yards per layer. Basically, the only limit on how much gold you make from this is how much silk you have and how many people will buy incredibly artistic embroidered silk handkerchiefs.

We can also look at a kimono for pricing. Kimonos would roughly fit the bill for the silk robes in the 250 gp art pieces in the DMG, and were 36 cm by 11.5 m, which comes out to 4.14 square meters or 5 (well 4.95, but that extra should cover thread expenses) square yards of silk. So a 250 gp robe that costs 50 gp and (especially if it is shown to be fashionable) could have noblewomen desiring multiple, and ever-increasing in complexity, gowns. Remember that while arts like embroidery and lace were expensive due to the great amounts of effort going into it, a wizard with Fabricate can do so just as easily as a regular item.

A bard who takes Fabricate as a magic secrets pick could, hypothetically, make anything thanks to Jack of All Trades.

[RickAllison]

A bard who takes Fabricate as a magic secrets pick could, hypothetically, make anything thanks to Jack of All Trades.

Having half proficiency is not having proficiency, else a Bard 3/Rogue 11 gets to have a minimum roll of 10 on every single check.

[Sigreid]

Having half proficiency is not having proficiency, else a Bard 3/Rogue 11 gets to have a minimum roll of 10 on every single check.

And with that comment we sink into DM ruling territory. I would rule as DM that since you can use the tools it counts.

As far as the 10 on every check, I haven't spent a lot of time on 5e rogue yet, but isn't that only for 1 or 2 skills?

[RickAllison]

And with that comment we sink into DM ruling territory. I would rule as DM that since you can use the tools it counts.

As far as the 10 on every check, I haven't spent a lot of time on 5e rogue yet, but isn't that only for 1 or 2 skills?



I checked again, it awards it for anything you add your proficiency bonus to.

Do note that it is not DM ruling territory, but an actual house rule. To wit:


Creatures or magic items can’t be created or transmuted by this spell. You also can’t use it to create items that ordinarily require a high degree of craftsmanship, such as jewelry, weapons, glass, or armor, unless you have proficiency with the type of artisan’s tools used to craft such objects.


Proficiency with a tool allows you to add your proficiency bonus to any ability check you make using that tool.

So unless you add your proficiency modifier to to a tool check, you aren't proficient.

Bards are already one of the most powerful classes in th game, don't make them even more OP by then ensuring that the bard gets to surpass everyone in making anything.

[Sigreid]

I checked again, it awards it for anything you add your proficiency bonus to.

Do note that it is not DM ruling territory, but an actual house rule. To wit:





So unless you add your proficiency modifier to to a tool check, you aren't proficient.

Bards are already one of the most powerful classes in th game, don't make them even more OP by then ensuring that the bard gets to surpass everyone in making anything.

I've commented before that I think they gave bards too much. That being said, my logic says that JoAT let you use the tools so...

[RickAllison]

I've commented before that I think they gave bards too much. That being said, my logic says that JoAT let you use the tools so...

That's not a good argument. Anyone can use the tools, they just don't get the bonus. Any barbarian can pick up a set of thieves' tools and try to pick a lock (though he will probably not be any good with those unless he is Dex-based). What does need proficiency is crafting. So the only way that bards can Fabricate everything is if you already let them craft everything. Which I guess you can house rule it to do so, but...