Does Belkar know?

[arrowed]

Hi. I've been rereading some of the later strips, and I'm a bit uncertain whether or not Belkar knows about his death prophecy. He seems to be acting as though he doesn't, but Roy's said a few things to his face, most notably in strip 0880.
So is he not paying attention, or does he not care? :smallconfused:

[dancrilis]

So is he not paying attention, or does he not care? :smallconfused:

Neither I think. He was more focused on how Roy was saying things - and how he was behaving - than the implications of what he was saying in 880, so he might know there is a prophesy that says something (possibly one about him killing Roy or Vaarsuvius), but I doubt he has connected it with himself dying from what Roy has said.

I do think it is a black mark about Roy though as he has not been fulfilling his role in trying to redeem Belkar (despite Belkar showing signs that he might be somewhat redeemable) - running out the clock so the abyss can claim the soul of your loyal companion isn't behaviour that strikes me as 'lawful good'.

[factotum]

I do think it is a black mark about Roy though as he has not been fulfilling his role in trying to redeem Belkar (despite Belkar showing signs that he might be somewhat redeemable)

Except that was never Roy's role. He says to the deva in his death interview that he's acting more like a prison warden for Belkar, not that he's actively trying to redeem him.

[Kish]

Belkar has never indicated knowing that his life is in danger. If he was paying attention to what Roy yelled at him there, that's the closest he comes to having learned of it, and he's never mentioned it since.

[dancrilis]

Except that was never Roy's role. He says to the deva in his death interview that he's acting more like a prison warden for Belkar, not that he's actively trying to redeem him.
True but the Deva recorded it as an attempt to redeem an evil doer - which would remove the taint of Belkar's actions from Roy's record, if the next Deva looks at the file and finds that Roy gave up on the attempt and simple ran out the clock said taint may be reapplied as the attempt may not be regarded as genuine.

[Keltest]

True but the Deva recorded it as an attempt to redeem an evil doer - which would remove the taint of Belkar's actions from Roy's record, if the next Deva looks at the file and finds that Roy gave up on the attempt and simple ran out the clock said taint may be reapplied as the attempt may not be regarded as genuine.

I'm not sure how genuine an attempt one can make in a matter of a couple weeks with somebody like Belkar. It isn't like Roy is letting him go out and be evil again, after all.

[dancrilis]

Well he did stand right there and let him torment low level npcs in prison (of course Belkar did explain how it was for the benefit of society), and yes Roy was not happy about it - but he did exactly nothing to actual stop Belkar (and on a redemption element he might have tried explaining to Belkar the negative elements of an abusive prison system - or how the other prisoners might be benefical if they could get around to freeing them via offering more gifts etc).
He could have made an attempt beyond threats to make something positive of the experience.

Note I am not saying that he should have done so or it would have been effective in that instance - but merely running out the clock and hand waving bad behaviour before the Abyss claims someone strikes me as not meeting the record of 'trying to redeem an evil doer'.

[War-Wren]

Well he did stand right there and let him torment low level npcs in prison (of course Belkar did explain how it was for the benefit of society), and yes Roy was not happy about it - but he did exactly nothing to actual stop Belkar (and on a redemption element he might have tried explaining to Belkar the negative elements of an abusive prison system - or how the other prisoners might be benefical if they could get around to freeing them via offering more gifts etc).
He could have made an attempt beyond threats to make something positive of the experience.

Note I am not saying that he should have done so or it would have been effective in that instance - but merely running out the clock and hand waving bad behaviour before the Abyss claims someone strikes me as not meeting the record of 'trying to redeem an evil doer'.

Roy's attempt to redeem an evil doer is basically summed up as 'pointing his stabby devices at an enemy more evil than himself', basically using Belkar's evil for good. Roy has got no intention of making the Belkster a better person, merely collateral damage limitation. In this, Roy is still succeeding, for now...

[Dr.Zero]

I don't think that Belkar knows. Even if I wondered myself how he couldn't guess something from the various hints.
Some failed listen check? :smallbiggrin:


Except that was never Roy's role. He says to the deva in his death interview that he's acting more like a prison warden for Belkar, not that he's actively trying to redeem him.

Personally I think that if you're in a team -worse, if you're the leader of a team- and one of your "loyal" (at least regarding the fact that, for a reason or another, Belkar has never really switched sides) teammate is going to die, it's your duty, as a Lawful person to talk about it with him. Yes, even if he is an evil little sociopath.

But this is the usual problem about different interpretations of the Lawful alignment.

Leaving aside the alignment, I find who keeps such a secret from a teammate a good candidate for the douchebag award. Far away from my personal ideal of heroic.

[Valynie]

I do not think Roy believes Belkar CAN change.
I am even pretty sure he is not aware of the changes Belkar already experienced.
(While a good person , Roy is not very perceptive (Durkula comes into mind)).

Roy does not feel obligated to Belkar : Belkar is an evil criminal who is useful in order to stop more evil guy from destroying the world. If Belkar does not die , Roy will force him to go back to prison for his crimes after all . While would he help Belkar survive and do more evil ?

[Morquard]

I do not think Roy believes Belkar CAN change.
I am even pretty sure he is not aware of the changes Belkar already experienced.
(While a good person , Roy is not very perceptive (Durkula comes into mind)).
I have to agree with that. Roy ignored all hints and evidences to the contrary that Durkon was a different person, and clung to the belief that his friend was still there.
At the same time he ignored all hints and evidences that Belkar is actually trying to change. He might notice them but dismisses them as a ruse. Which to be honest, given Belkar's past, is not too far fetched.

Lately, he's been forced to reevaluate both of these standpoints. "I wanted to believe that nothing had really changed - that Durgon was still Durkon and you were still an untrustworthy jerk" and "As a leader, I need to do a better job of taking my team seriously" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1027.html)

That's a start at least.

But to answer the OP's question, no I don't think anyone actually told Belkar yet.

And why he hasn't picked up on the hints? Two words: Wisdom penalty.

[Kish]

I don't really think he even needs a Wisdom penalty to justify not zeroing in on, "While I am standing here with a Constitution of 1, provably barely able to stand, trying to explain that Durkon just got murdered trying to save me in an act that totally goes against my entire worldview, the guy waving a +5 greatsword at me and shouting I SHOULD KILL YOU said something about a prophecy."

[Bestigle]

Personally I think that if you're in a team -worse, if you're the leader of a team- and one of your "loyal" (at least regarding the fact that, for a reason or another, Belkar has never really switched sides) teammate is going to die, it's your duty, as a Lawful person to talk about it with him. Yes, even if he is an evil little sociopath.To be fair, I think that's only because he sees more opportunities to be sadistic on Roy's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0520.html) team.

[Mandor]

I have to agree with that. Roy ignored all hints and evidences to the contrary that Durkon was a different person, and clung to the belief that his friend was still there.
At the same time he ignored all hints and evidences that Belkar is actually trying to change. He might notice them but dismisses them as a ruse. Which to be honest, given Belkar's past, is not too far fetched.
....


Are you so sure Belkar is actually changing and that it's NOT just a ruse? Remember his flash of realization at the end of his Hippie Vision Quest with Shojo (#660) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0606.html): "I finally understand what it is I need to be doing! In order to make in this world -- I need to pretend to have character growth!"

Now, it can be argued (and many will argue) that pretend something hard enough long enough and it has a way of becoming true. Humans at least are creatures of habit, and halflings seem similar enough in this regard. But while I'm sure Belkar does care about Mr. Scruffy, I would not extrapolate that to "and therefore he's becoming a better person". After all Tarquin regarded Malack as his best friend, but he's still about as evil as it gets.

[Kish]

Are you so sure Belkar is actually changing and that it's NOT just a ruse? Remember his flash of realization at the end of his Hippie Vision Quest with Shojo (#660) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0606.html): "I finally understand what it is I need to be doing! In order to make in this world -- I need to pretend to have character growth!"

Now, it can be argued (and many will argue) that pretend something hard enough long enough and it has a way of becoming true. Humans at least are creatures of habit, and halflings seem similar enough in this regard. But while I'm sure Belkar does care about Mr. Scruffy, I would not extrapolate that to "and therefore he's becoming a better person". After all Tarquin regarded Malack as his best friend, but he's still about as evil as it gets.
Other people will probably point out the examples of Belkar showing empathy toward a lizardfolk, a dragon/ogre hybrid of some degree, a gnome, and a dwarf, so I'm going to take a different angle:

We have a fundamental difference of opinion if you think Tarquin's "Malack was my best friend" meant anything close to what Roy's friendship with Durkon means rather than amounting to, "That was my best china you broke, Nale!"