Miniatures Handbook classes for NPCs?

[Albions_Angel]

Hi all

So, the Miniatures handbook. Rarely mentioned, and the classes are considered rather underpowered. Favoured Soul crops up from time to time as a spontaneous divine caster, and healer and martial occasionally appear in some esoteric build here and there. I know next to nothing of Warmage.

Is it worth considering those classes for some npcs in my world? Most NPCs are getting NPC classes, while some high powered ones are getting full on PC classes, but I wondered if the ranks of the clergy should be augmented with healers, or if guard captains should be Martials. In all honesty, I am not totally sure what the classes even do. Healers, well, heal, and get some bonuses to healing, some healing spells and some SU abilities so they dont burn their spells instead. But other than that...

And what IS a warmage? I mean, I know the CA version, but why is it in MH?

[Seppo87]

Is it worth considering those classes for some npcs in my world?
[...]
In all honesty, I am not totally sure what the classes even do.
It seems to me that the best course of action would consist in reading such classes

[FearlessGnome]

Healers do nothing but heal and ride unicorns, until suddenly Gate. And also a Couatl alternative mount, I guess, which has psionic planeshift at will. So you could have a high level Healer taxi driver, I suppose. Note that they all have to be Good and can't use shields ever ever. They are a lesser Cleric I guess, but they lack almost all the utility.

Warmage is a blasting focused inferior sorcerer. One thing it has going for it is that like Dread Necromancers they know their whole spell list, so anything that adds spells to their spell list automatically adds to their spells known.

Marshal is fantastic for a dip, but a pure martial is like a ****ty, spell less bard. The one thing they can do is boost all their team mates' skill checks and initiative checks by their charisma modifier.

Favored Soul is like a divine sorcerer but without any of the sorcerer only goodness.

You can make any of them work, especially for NPCs, but usually it's easier to give NPCs lower levels of good classes than high levels of bad classes. Unless they are a villain of course, in which case any excuse to give them more hit dice without more firepower is worth looking at.

Like Seppo said, give them a read.

[Thurbane]

Favored Soul is the standout of the bunch. Not as solid as a Cleric, and not quite as good as a Sorcerer, but still pretty darn good. The key is to PrC out as early as you can.

Worth noting that both Favored Soul and Warmage both got reprinted in the Complete- series. AFAIK, they didn't get changed between books.

[BowStreetRunner]

Miniatures Handbook came out in 2003, and two of its classes (Favored Soul and Warmage) were reprinted the next year in Complete Divine and Complete Arcane, respectively. To my knowledge the other two (Healer and Marshal) were never given the same treatment and only exist in the one source.

I've seen both Favored Soul and Warmage used as the basis for multi-classed builds that took advantage of specific differences between these and the more common caster classes, but have never seen either used as a single-class build. Marshal I've only ever seen used as a dip class, and I've never seen anyone actually use Healer.

The prestige classes in the MH are a mixed lot. War Hulk is certainly the most popular of the lot, and for good reason. The rest may very well make good NPCs in given situations. I would highly recommend throwing a Warchief at your players at some point, as it is a very flavorful option with a mechanic that isn't too bad for an NPC leader. A group of NPC Tactical Soldiers working in conjunction could work better than most PC uses of the class. Skullclan Hunter is a very focused PrC that would be perfect for an undead-heavy setting but not so useful the rest of the time - a role better suited to an NPC than a PC in most cases. Honestly, I think the PrCs in the MH may be a better source of NPC ideas than the base classes.

Oh, and definitely throw an NPC War Hulk at your players sometime. That would be a fun encounter to watch! ;)

[Khedrac]

Favored Soul has been reprinted in Complete Divine so the MH version should not be used.
Warmage has been reprinted in Complete Arcane so the MH version should not be used.

(From my experience the Warmage is the better of the two - FSs are too MAD and clerics can do pretty much everything they do better.)

Healer. As people has said, it is not a class that works well, but can make an OK-ish NPC to support a party.

Marshal - the joker in the pack. They are a passive support booster. Most of their abilities work without them needing to do anything which leave the marshal with nothing to do in combat. This makes them great in gestalt and quite useful in dips.
What they can be is devastating to the balance between a party and it's opponents.
Their "major auras" are nicely scaling abilities similar to those of Dragon Shamans.
Their "minor auras" can be game breaking, notably add the marshal's charisma bonus to all dexterity checks (i.e. initiative). That is likely to be +4 to the party at level 1 and only goes up.
What they also do is they show bards what diplomancers are supposed to be (skill focus: diplomacy at level 1 as a bonus feat, and with a different minor aura add their chr modifier to all the party's charisma checks - so that adds it twice for the marshal...)
Yes, an 18 charisma marshal can have a 15 modifier to diplomacy at level 1.

For a fairly weak class they are quite good at breaking the game.

[Thurbane]

Interestingly enough, I've been contemplating a Warmage/Favored Soul/Mystic Theurge build. Using Versatile Spellcaster for early entry. You can blast on the Warmage side, and save your FS slots for buffing and utility. Since you don't need to worry about DCs on the FS casting, you can dump Wis.

FS 2/Warmage 1/MT 10/FS +6/Warmage +1 will get you FS 9ths, and Warmage 7ths (using Versatile Spellcaster).

...if anyone can find a way to get dual 9th's, I'd love to hear! :smallsmile:

[Albions_Angel]

I did try reading them. Frankly, it usually takes me to see them played, or have someone explain how one might be played for me to get a feel of them.

Thanks for the responses. The thing I like about healer is the bonus to healing, which at lower levels is rather nice. But that can be achieved with a dip by the looks of it, so long as the healer doesnt then break tenants after classing out.

Anyone know of cleric specialties like a wizard can take? Swearing off some spells for boosts in others?

[FearlessGnome]

Anyone know of cleric specialties like a wizard can take? Swearing off some spells for boosts in others?

That does not exist. The closest they get is an ACF in Player's Handbook II which trades spontaneous Curing/Wounding for spontaneously converting spells into spells from one particular domain they have.

[nedz]

I've used Healers as NPCs - they work fine for their intended purpose.

If the BoED is open then they can add Sanctified Spells to their list - which makes them about a tier higher.

[gadren]

Well, you can use any PC class for NPCs. They are just more powerful NPCs.
As far as mechanics of CR, ability scores, and other things associated with NPC classes vs PC classes, I don't believe any of the classes are weak enough to merit being an NPC class. Warmages may not be as good as sorcerers, but they are still better than a Fighter, etc.

[eggynack]

If the BoED is open then they can add Sanctified Spells to their list - which makes them about a tier higher.
Champions of valor has some sanctified spells too, and some of those are pretty sweet. The whole thing might even plausibly mean two tier jumps.

[daremetoidareyo]

Champions of valor has some sanctified spells too, and some of those are pretty sweet. The whole thing might even plausibly mean two tier jumps.

With channeling celestials, the healer gets even better. You just need a means of summoning celestials.

[Pugwampy]

Healer. As people has said, it is not a class that works well, but can make an OK-ish NPC to support a party.

I played a humble lvl 18 healer/ healing hand in a dragon encounter session. I stole the show keeping everyone nice and healthy .

My stacked bonuses plus a nymph cloak had my cure minor wounds healing 17 hitpoints .

Healer has a Close Wounds spell thats a free action and at range .

[Troacctid]

Don't forget that healers also have access to all cleric spells of 4th level or lower via a lammasu companion, and all the symbol spells as spell-like abilities via a gynosphinx.

[daremetoidareyo]

Don't forget that healers also have access to all cleric spells of 4th level or lower via a lammasu companion, and all the symbol spells as spell-like abilities via a gynosphinx.

And lesser planar ally is a cleric spell that can get you some celestials to channel.

[Thurbane]

I've got an NPC "gish" healer in my game, just for lulz.

Protectar Outsider 2/Healer 4/Knight of the Raven 2 (KoTR is re-fluffed in my game to be servants of Phaulkon, and not tied specifically to Ravenloft). Practiced Caster (Healer), Martial Study (Crusader's Strike) and Martial Stance (Martial Spirit). He wears Dragonhide Breastplate.

...not an overly optimized character, by any stretch.

[Khedrac]

Interestingly enough, I've been contemplating a Warmage/Favored Soul/Mystic Theurge build.
This is generally agreed to sound really interesting and have potential (or more often a sorcerer/favored soul).
It is also generally agreed to play really really poorly.

Yes, Favored Soul casting is that bad when compared to clerics.

[Thurbane]

This is generally agreed to sound really interesting and have potential (or more often a sorcerer/favored soul).
It is also generally agreed to play really really poorly.

Yes, Favored Soul casting is that bad when compared to clerics.

I played a FS through RHoD, and I found it played fairly well. There was a Cleric in the group, and yes, I admit I didn't match up to him, but I never felt greatly inferior to him, either.

I think comparing a FS to a Cleric is a bit misleading, as well. I think Sorcerer is a more favourable and accurate comparison. FS don't get anywhere near the level of PrC or ACF/sub level support that Sorcerers do, but compared to a baseline Sorcerer, I think they compare relatively OK. Straight FS 20 vs. straight Sorcerer 20 ends up with more spells known, better HP, better saves, and better BAB. FS gets a few weak class features compared to a familiar (Sorcerer's only class feature other than casting) - Sorcerer wins with that, as familiars can be very useful and powerful. Sorcerer picks from a better spell list.

But yes, I freely acknowledge that FS isn't the powerhouse that a Cleric (or Sorcerer with a splat support) is.

[Khedrac]

I played a FS through RHoD, and I found it played fairly well. There was a Cleric in the group, and yes, I admit I didn't match up to him, but I never felt greatly inferior to him, either.
Oddly enough my Barb 2/Favored Soul N was the party divine caster for RHoD...

To me a lot matters on the point buy used. My groups usually use 28 (which is supposed to be high but seems to be regarded as low by the forum).
Most of a FS's class features are for combat - so Str/Dex/Con are useful stats.
Their spells go off Charisma, but their save DCs go off Wis - so that's 5 stats unless you ignore combat (and half your class features) or don't bother with spells that give saves (as I did - opening stats 14, 14, 14, 10, 10, 14).
At least their own saves are good (good saves all round - their best feature).
Yes I know I hurt my character's casting with the 2 levels of Barb, but without them I would have been even more useless in melee.
The big hurt to a FS is that if they want to heal they have to tie up a spell known or 3, clerics can also spontaneously heal which really shows how poor the FS is for this.

With a higher point buy you can make the FS more useful, but they really are a 5-stat MAD class unless you ignore significant chunks of their abilities.

[Extra Anchovies]

Two levels in Marshal is a good way to create a priority target in a group of individually weak NPCs without making one of them more powerful than the rest or adding a spellcaster. It's also a nice class for rudisplorkers like us to pick if they're in a group of less optimization-prone players.

[jenotus]

Healers do nothing but heal and ride unicorns, until suddenly Gate. And also a Couatl alternative mount, I guess, which has psionic planeshift at will. So you could have a high level Healer taxi driver, I suppose. Note that they all have to be Good and can't use shields ever ever. They are a lesser Cleric I guess, but they lack almost all the utility.

Warmage is a blasting focused inferior sorcerer. One thing it has going for it is that like Dread Necromancers they know their whole spell list, so anything that adds spells to their spell list automatically adds to their spells known.

This is just one oppinion of these two classes. Maybe I am a bit bias'ed through playing a character, who combines exactly these two classes - but I can only highly suggest to take a look at them. Specifically the prejudice of healing "being a waste/ ineffective" in combat doesn't hold true if you build the character right.

If you are interested in these two classes in particular, my CO Diary has some build details as well as play-testing experiences.

Best regards,
jeno

[Gnaeus]

Healer: While this class is easily fixed, it has problems. It can't spontaneously convert to cures like a cleric can. It lacks a number of spells from splats that should be (could be added) on its list but are not by raw. Since it lacks domains, it misses out on a number of healing type feats, so that a healing specialized cleric is better at healing. It can't really do anything until someone gets hurt, so some action economy problems.
Fixes: allow the cure x wounds spontaneously. Give it a domain at some level, maybe from a limited list. Give it a few defensive buffs and any other healing type spells.

Marshall: not a bad team buffer in a large group of melee types. Lacks effective actions on its own. Can be a good dip, or can break the game if RAW diplomacy is used. Gets a little splat support in the sense that dragon shaman auras can be major auras.
Fixes: no simple ones. Probably easiest is to gestalt with something like Knight, or give a spell list. Probably needs major redesign.

Warmage: like healer, suffers from lack of splat support. It's certainly better than a low op blasty sorcerer, but it misses some of the best blasting spells like wings of flurry, so decent op sorcerers beat it in its area of expertise.
Fixes: modify advanced learning to give it the good blasts that it misses.

Favored Soul: a solid T2. Cleric spells are less versatile on the whole than Sor/Wiz ones, but FS has more spells known on a better chassis. Like healer, lack of domains and channeling are big drawbacks
Fixes: Easiest: just port the PF oracle. Basically the same class with some bells and whistles. Otherwise, some combination of making its spells SAD (either cha or wis) giving appropriate domains or channeling, depending on how strong you want it. Even with all 3, still weaker than cleric. Alternatively, leave it as is and nerf the T1s

[Hecuba]

Healer. As people has said, it is not a class that works well, but can make an OK-ish NPC to support a party.

You're underselling it, and the lists that put it at Tier 5 are blatantly missing the scope of the companion.

The healer is weak for the first 7 levels, becomes workable with the Unicorn at 8, and really starts to soar at 12 when the alternate companions come online. All Gate really does is prop up the companion casting when it has started to lag gratuitously.

The companion's abilities are far more significant than a paladin mount, and they tend to be overlooked even more often. The net benefit is about the same as a Cohort with Leadership Score = Healer Level, except that you can switch them out at the drop of a hat. You can explicitly swap them out on the fly to fit different needs and it doesn't take significant resources or time to do so.

And, as Troacctid points out, the options available give spell access up to 4th level (Water Naga for Sorcerer, Lammasu's for cleric). It falls behind for a couple levels in the mid-teens, but then Gate comes online (something that makes much more sense in the context of the companion).

In my experience, if you are looking for a divine caster for a Tier 3, Healer works very well-- enough so that you may still need to hold back at some levels.

TL;DR?:
Healer 1-7 == Really poorly built caster-only FS
Healer 8-11 == Really poorly built caster-only FS, and a Fighter to help
Healer 12-16 == Really poorly built caster-only FS, plus your choice of Sorcerer 8 or Cleric 8
Heler 17+ == Gate