Lord of the Sevenfold Shadows(COUNTERING FAMOUS OPTIMIZED CHARACTERS BUILDS)

[ragevillain]

As requested , I am giving more details of the build and even created a FAQ with the doubts of the last thread .
But I'm still editing , ask patience .

Important consideration, completely rule out any infinite loop, Artifact or Epic Level
Mechanics: I am fallowing rules to be a Practical Optimization:
No infinite loops
Max 1 summon while combat(Gate, Planar Ally, Ice Assassin or Similar)
Allowd Familiar, Druid Animal Companion or Similar

http://orig07.deviantart.net/f8b6/f/2015/350/4/c/taegamhr_by_gugu_troll-d9kcwfb.jpg


Master of Shadows CR 20
hp 627 (19 HD)
Male fey Marshal 1/ Divine Stalwart Dragon-Blooded Sorcerer 5/Tainted Sorcerer 1/ Dweomerkeeper 10/ Spelldancer 1/Zhentarim Skymage 1
LE Large Fey (Evil, Dragonblooded); Master of the Hunt Body(MM V.202)
Init +138; SensesVariable vision; Spot +155
Languages Permanent Tongues
AC 173, touch 119, flat-footed Never;
Immune electricity, exhaustion, fatigue, mind-affecting
spells and abilities
Fort +178, Ref +188, Will +196
Speed 210 ft fly, 290 ft(Dragon)
Melee+5 Ego Bastard Sword (non metal/Quintessence) +134/+128/+122/+116 (6d8+52/19–20×3) (Touch Attack)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.

Special Actions Supernatural Spell 4/day, Spelldance, Dexterity Aura, Divine Companion, Domain Acess, Draconic Spell-like, Fly mount(Vampire Greater Wyrm Shadow Dragon), Enigma Aura, Blood Component, Tainted Supression, Tainted Metamagic, Tainted Spellcasting, Arcane Sight, Cloak of Mysteries, Hidden Spell, Cloak of Mystery

Sorcerer Spells Known (CL 60th)(DC 138+ Spell level): (Access to extra spells with drake helms dnd exchanging useless spells with Dragonblood pact and retraining spells)
9th—Wish, Ice Assassin, Shapechance, Invoke Magic, Imprisonment, Mage Disj, Sphere of Ultimate Destruction, Alamanther Return, Mind Rape,
8th—Greater Arcane Fusion, Superior Invisibility, Minute Form, Greater Betow Curse, Greater Celerity, Mystic Shield, Mind Blank, Moment of Prescience, Veil of Undead
7th—Planar Bubble, Arcane Spellsurge, Limited Wish, Body outside Body, Antimagic Aura
6th—Mental Pinnacle, Antimagic Field, Eye of Oracle, Force Shapechange, Analyze Dweomer, Trance of The Verdant Domain
5th—Arcane Fusion, Teleport, Greater Blink, Telekinesis, Baleful Polymorph, Kiss of the Vampire, Wall of Stone, Shadow Form
4th—Celerity, Friendly Fire, Ruin Delver's Fortune, Voice of the Dragon, Otiluke's Supressing field, Blacklight, Stifle Spell
3rd—Permeable Form, Vision of the omniscient eye, Gust Wind , Dolorous Blow, Antecipate Teleport, Nauseating Breath, Spiderskin
2nd—Wings of Cover, Heroic, Wraithstrike, Whirling Blade, Chamaleon, Suffer to flesh, Blur, Cloud of Knives
1st—True Strike, True Casting, Hail of Stone, Eyes of Avoral, Strenght of True Form, Undetectable Aligment, Shieldbearer

Cantips:
prestidigitation, detect magic


How to have access to all the spells of other lists?

Ring of Theurgy (Complete Arcane)= You can store any magic and be cast as if it were of their known spells , you must have a caster to supply the rings.
The Master of Shadow can summon dragons and angels to access spells. Examples:
Planetar ,
Elemental Weirdy(MM II)
Dragons (Arcane and Divine Spells)

It is also possible to use its own mount pet ( Zhentarim Skymage ) to supply the rings.
Slayers and Minions can also do it.

A Simulacrum
Abeil, Queen: Druid Acess
Black Ethergaut: Wizard Acess
Elemental Weirdy: Sorcerer Acess

Sorcerer Spells:
9th—Elmister Evasion
8th—Veil of Undead

Cleric Spells:

9th—Greater Visage of Deitie, Monstruous Thrall, True Ressurection
8th—General of the Undead, Mind Blank
7th—Blasphemy, Holyword
6th—
5th—Divine Agility, Surge of Fortune
4th—Divine Power, Consumptive Field, Death Ward, Freedom of Moment, Mark of the Enlightened Soul
3rd—Sheltered Vitality, That Art Thou, Spark of Life
2nd—Find Trap
1st—Sanctuary

Druid Spell:

9th—Greater Whirlwind
8th—Unearthly Beauty, Stormrage
7th—
6th—
5th—Owl's Insight
4th—
3rd—
2nd—
1st—


Magic Domain Acess

Magic Aura:
Identify:
Dispel Magic:
Imbue with Spell
Spell Resistance:
Antimagic Field:
Spell Turning:
Protection from SpellsMF
Mage's Disjunction

Necrotic spell acess

Corrupt Spell acess


Spell-like: Wings of Cover/3day, Share to allies, Celerity
Supernatural Abilite: Ice Assassin




Sorcerer Spells Known (CL 60th)(DC 138+ Spell level): Knowstones to acess extraspells

9th—Wish, Ice Assassin, Shapechance, Invoke Magic, Imprisonment, Mage Disjunction, Sphere of Ultimate Destruction, Alamanther Return, Mind Rape, Srinshee's Spell Shift, Instant Refuge, Miracle(Lucky domain)
8th—Greater Arcane Fusion, Superior Invisibility, Minute Form, Greater Betow Curse, Greater Celerity, Mystic Shield, Mind Blank, Moment of Prescience, Ghostform
7th—Planar Bubble, Arcane Spellsurge, Limited Wish, Body outside Body, Antimagic Aura
6th—Mental Pinnacle, Antimagic Field, Eye of Oracle, Force Shapechange, Analyze Dweomer, Trance of The Verdant Domain, Contingency Spell
5th—Arcane Fusion, Teleport, Greater Blink, Telekinesis, Baleful Polymorph, Kiss of the Vampire, Wall of Stone, Shadow Form
4th—Celerity, Friendly Fire, Ruin Delver's Fortune, Voice of the Dragon, Otiluke's Supressing field, Blacklight, Stifle Spell
3rd—Permeable Form, Vision of the omniscient eye, Gust Wind , Dolorous Blow, Antecipate Teleport, Nauseating Breath, Spiderskin
2nd—Wings of Cover, Heroic, Wraithstrike, Whirling Blade, Chamaleon, Suffer to flesh, Blur, Cloud of Knives
1st—True Strike, True Casting, Hail of Stone, Eyes of Avoral, Strenght of True Form, Undetectable Aligment, Shieldbearer

Cantips:
prestidigitation, detect magic


How to have access to all the spells of other lists?

Ring of Theurgy (Complete Arcane)= You can store any magic and be cast as if it were of their known spells , you must have a caster to supply the rings.
The Master of Shadow can summon dragons and angels to access spells. Examples:
Planetar ,
Elemental Weirdy(MM II)
Dragons (Arcane and Divine Spells)

It is also possible to use its own mount pet ( Zhentarim Skymage ) to supply the rings.
Slayers and Minions can also do it.

A Simulacrum
Abeil, Queen: Druid Acess
Black Ethergaut: Wizard Acess
Elemental Weirdy: Sorcerer Acess

Sorcerer Spells:
9th—Elmister Evasion
8th—Veil of Undead

Cleric Spells:

9th—Greater Visage of Deitie, Monstruous Thrall, True Ressurection
8th—General of the Undead, Mind Blank
7th—Blasphemy, Holyword
6th—
5th—Divine Agility, Surge of Fortune
4th—Divine Power, Consumptive Field, Death Ward, Freedom of Moment, Mark of the Enlightened Soul
3rd—Sheltered Vitality, That Art Thou, Spark of Life
2nd—Find Trap
1st—Sanctuary

Druid Spell:

9th—Greater Whirlwind
8th—Unearthly Beauty, Stormrage
7th—
6th—
5th—Owl's Insight
4th—
3rd—
2nd—
1st—


Magic Domain Acess

Magic Aura:
Identify:
Dispel Magic:
Imbue with Spell
Spell Resistance:
Antimagic Field:
Spell Turning:
Protection from SpellsMF
Mage's Disjunction

Necrotic spell acess

Corrupt Spell acess


Spell-like: Wings of Cover/3day, Share to allies, Celerity
Supernatural Abilite: Ice Assassin





Abilities Str-, Dex 77, Con 51, Int 35, Wis
72, Cha 90
Feats 35 feats(detail below); Extend Spell, Transdimentional Spell, Combat Casting, Iron Will, Mounted Combat, Persistent Spell, Twin Spell, Practical Metamagic(Twin Spell), Craft Contigent Spell, Arcane Thesis(Greater Arcane Fusion), Rapid Spell, Daley Spell, Sculpt Spell, Silent Spell, Still Spell, Smiting Spell, Fell Draining Spell, Mother Cyst Spell, Item Familiar(Max Hide skill), Draconic Heritage(Deep Dragon), Corrupt Arcane, Sanctum Spell, Arcane Strike, Spell focus(Necromancy), Undead Battery, Planar Touchstone(Catalogues of enlightenment-Trickery Domain), Fell Energy Spell, Mage Killer, Experienced Spellcaster, Supernatural Instinct, Shadow Weaver Magic, Arcane Strike, Improved Counterspell, Reactive Counterspell, Divine Sorcery(Lucky Domain)

Skills Hide +202(217 when Shapechance), Spot +158, Bluff +130, Diplomacy +58, Performy +46, Disguise +77, Spellcraft +38, Use Magic Device +48, Use Psion Device +46,Knowledge(Religion) +10, Knowledge(Planes/Arcane) +36



Stealth:
The master of the shadows can hide and spy on their opponents with ease
+217 hide check, Superior Invisibility, Nondetection, Ex Vecna-Blooded, MindBlank, Supernatural Blacklight(Invoke Magic),
It will hardly be detected, if detected , it uses second impression skill trick to avoid being detected.
he uses Analyze Dweomer to discover all the craft contigent spell , to avoid surprises .
It will analyze all spells and target effects, will analyze all target weaknesses before attacking.
No risk, he used his Supernatural ice assasin(Shadow Duplication of Master of Shadows or Target clone) to avoid being attacked , it also uses riding dragons(Vampire Greater Wyrm Shadow Dragon) to use spells and attack targets with ease ( Skymage )
Self Aleax Ice Assassin(Supernatural Necrotic Tumor +Supernatural Mindrape)
Great advantages in the initiative(+138 initiative)
Smiting Spell + Whirling Blade = Supernatural Imprisonment(142 save), Greater Betow Curse(141 save), Antimagic Aura(140 save).
If the target cast spells / Spell-like or Supernatural abilitie, it will be intercepted.(Mage Killer/Supernatural Instinct feats)
The intercepted target will be affected by smiting spells.(it can be deadly)

Multiple Actions
Twin Greater Arcane Fusion
Slot 7, Sanctum Greater Celerity
Slot 4, twin Celerity
6 standard action + 2 move action
Many Arcane fusion possibilities that can make all the difference.(very powerful combinations . It can be extremely deadly)
He can persist all spells that have access .
Body Outside Body
His clones can cast several supernatural abilities , including mage disjunctun , wishes, wings of cover .
If the enemie want to escape to your demiplane, the enemie have problems, Mental Pinnacle + Psicrown Metafaculty will find him. And I know all about your plan. Knowledge(Planes). And do not even try to block my entry, Supernatural Wish (Teleport) can bypass any defenses.

Vecna-Blooded
Any target that try to find out any information(Divination or Similar) about the Master of Shadows will automatically fail and will be relieved the name , appearance and location. And it can be extremely dangerous.
Enigma Aura is deadly

Arcane Fusion and Greater Arcane Fusion






Class Entry:
Divine Sorcerer: Complete Champion. PG 54
Domain acess(Entry Dweomerkeeper): Your Depth of belief allow you to channel divine power the way a cleric does

Dragonblood Sorcerer: Races of the Dragons. Pg 107
Spell-like Ability acess:

Stalwart Sorcerer: Complete Champion Pg 37
2 bonus feat:

Spelldancer(Class entry): Master of Shadows use heroic spells.



Venerable Master of Hunt Body

STR
Ability Augmentation (Fell Energy Spell feat + Kiss of the Vampire) +2 all ability bonuses

Base 35
+5 Wishes
+6 Visage Of The Deity, Greater
+2 Drugs
+4 Elation (Morale)
-10 Minute Form
+8 Extract Gift (Enchant)
+30 (Consumptive Field) ( Limitless )

Total 80

Dexterity
Ability Augmentation ( Fell Energy Spell feat + Kiss of the Vampire ) +2 all ability bonuses

Base 40
+5 Wishes
+2 Drugs
+12 Divine Agility ( Enchant )
+8 Minute Form
+6 Visage of the Deity, Greater
+4 Elation
Total 77 DEX

Constituition
Ability Augmentation ( Fell Energy Spell feat + Kiss of the Vampire ) +2 all ability bonuses

Base 38
+5 Wishes
+2 Drugs
+6 Visage Of Deite
+4 Elation
-2 Minute Form

Total 53

Intelligence
Ability Augmentation ( Fell Energy Spell feat + Kiss of the Vampire ) +2 all ability bonuses

base 16
+5 Wishes
+8 Extract Gift ( Ench )
+4 Visage of the Deity, Greater
+2 Drugs

Total 35

Wisdow
Ability Augmentation ( Fell Energy Spell feat + Kiss of the Vampire ) +2 all ability bonuses

+18 Base
+5 Wishes
+3 Ages
+6 Visage of the Deity, Greater
+2 Drugs
+32 Owl's Insight ( Competence )
+8 Extract Gift ( Enchant )
-2 Magic Blooded

Total 72

Charisma
Ability Augmentation ( Fell Energy Spell feat + Kiss of the Vampire ) +2 all ability bonuses

Base 18
+5 Level
+5 Wishes
+2 Magic Blooded
+2 Unseelie Fey
+1 Magical Location (Worm of Minauros)
+6 Devil Ego ( Profane Bonus )
+6 Righteous Aura ( Sacred )
+6 Visage of the Deity, Greater
+2 Drugs
+3 Age
+38 Powerleech ( Always Draining From my Dragon Pet )

Total 94 Charisma


Saves: Ability Augmentation ( Fell Energy Spell feat + Kiss of the Vampire ) +2 all bonuses

Fort: 8 + 21(Con)+3(Resistence)+44(Persisted Ruin Delver's Spell)+42(Shapechange to Death Giant MMIII) +60(Shield(Su)-Divine Sorcerer) = 178(188 against spells/spell-like)

Reflex: 6 +33(Dex)+3(Resistence)+44(Persisted Ruin Delver's Spell)+42(Shapechange)+60(Divine Companion)=188(198)

Will: 13 + 31(Wis)+3(Resistence)+3(Iron Will)+44(Persistend Ruin Delver's Spell)+42(Shapechance)+60(Divine Companion)=196(206)


Skills: (Fell Energy Spell feat + Kiss of the Vampire) +2 all bonuses

*Planar Touchstone(Catalogue)= Trickery Domain; Hide, Disguise, Bluff acess
*Draconic Heritage(Deep)=Spot acess
*Extract Gift = +15 all skills

Hide: 23 +33(Dex)+42(Dexterity Aura/Marshal)+30(item Familiar) +16(Minute Form)+7(Spiderskin)+12(Chamaleon)+6(Greater Heroism)+22(Forestfold)+15(Extract) = +206

Spot: 23+31(Wis)+42(Death Giant)+10(Eye of the avoral spell)+12(Vision of the ominiscient eye)+22(That Art Thou)+15(Extract)=+155


Bluff: 23+42(Charisma)+6(Greater Heroism)+12(Voice of the Dragon)+32(Gibliness potion)+15(extract)= +130

Diplomacy: 0+42(Charisma)+6(Greater Heroism)+12(Voice of the Dragon)+15(Extract)=+75

Performy(Dance): 10+42+6+15= +73

Disguise: +77

Spellcraft: +38

Use Magic Device: +50

Use Power Device: +48

Knowledge(Planes): +36

Knowledge(Arcane):+36


AC: 10 + 60 Deflection(Shield(Su)/Divine Companion/Divine Sorcerer)+33(Dex)+5(Eye of the Oracle)+4(Cover Dragon) +7(Insight)= 119 Touch

Initiative: +33(Dex)+42(Dexterity Aura/Marshal)+10(Gear)+7 Primal Instinct + 42(Death Giant)+2(Traits)= +136



Attack Roll: 1d20(Choose 20/Surge of Fortune)+20(Divine Power)+ 35(STR)+5(Enchant)+6(Morale)+8(Minute Form)+20(Arcane Strike feat)+20(True Strike)+3(Haste)= +137 Crit hit(Vorpal Weapon)(Touch attack)

Whirling Black Roll: 1d20(Choose 20/Surge of Fortune)+20(Divine Power)+ 42(STR)+5(Enchant)+6(Morale)+8(Minute Form)+20(Arcane Strike feat)+20(True Strike)+3(Haste)= +144 Crit hit(Vorpal Weapon)(Touch Attack)


Caster Level: 60 Caster Level
Base 20
Bead of karma: +4 caster
Suffer to flesh: +5
Arcane Gloves: +2
Tatoo: +3
Adept Spirit +3 Insight
Mark of the Enlightened Soul(Good Spells), +2 Untype
Consumptive Field=+20


Defenses: Shieldbearer + Reflective TowerShield = Total Cover
Craft Contigent Spell Condition: When the enemy cast Mage Disjunctun or similar with metamagic effect : Twin Greater Arcane Fusion
he uses Invoke Magic Supernatural Blacklight and abuse of hiding check
If the enemy cast some supernatural or magic effect will be intercepted(Mage Slayer/Supernatural Instinct) , no DEX AC (Blacklight)


Good Picks: Death Giant, Shadesteel Golem, Aspect of Leviitan(Elder Evil)



Undead Battery(Age of Mortals)=Free metamagic
Tainted Metamagic=Con damage to Free metamagic

35 Feats: Embrace the Dark Chaos/Shun the Dark Chaos/Pysichic Reformation/Retraining rules:
18 level = 7 feats
Elf Original Race= 5 feats
Marshal Bonus=1 feat bonus
Draconic Bloodline bonus = 2 feat bonus
Flaws: 2 bonus
7 Site locations( Othy Hole, Metamagic Storm and others ): 7 bonus feat
Elder Evil fighting = 5 bonus feat
Tainted= 2 Bonus feat
Symbiotic Creature= Free Empowered Spell
Stalwart= 2 bonus feat
Seling Soul: 2 bonus feat


DC Check: Evil Subtype and Undead are ignore tainted negative effect.
Evil Subtype and Kiss of the Vampire(Undead)
The limit for tainted score will be the maximum that it can survive without evil subtype . Avoiding the infinite loop.
DC=10+144(Tainted Score)+ Spell level +10(If Irresistible spell)



It is incredibly efficient , Share Spells(Skymage) combined with powerful spells can be very dangerous .


Buffs: Extend/Persist everything if possible.
Shapechange(Death Giant/Shadesteel Golem or Elemental Weirdy)
Hide Life
Greater Visage of Deitie(Good)
Foresight(Elemental Weirdy)
Invisibility Superior
Minute Form
Mystic Shield
Veil of Undead
Mind Blank
Moment of Prescience
General of Undead
Unearthly Beauty
Stormrage
Arcane Spellsurge
Planar Bubble
Extraordinary Spell aim/Selective Spell Antimagic Field
Eye of Oracle
Analyse Dweoper
Greater Blink
Kiss of the Vampire
Owl Insight
Divine Agility
Surge of Fortune
Friendly Fire
Ruin Delver's Fortune x3
Voice of the Dragon
Consumptive Spell
Supernatural Spell Blacklight(Invoke Magic)
Supernatural Spell Death Ward(Invoke Magic)
Supernatural Spell Freedom of Moment(Invoke Magic)
Supernatural Spell Sheltered Vitality(Invoke Magic)
Second day, Supernatural Sanctum Kiss of the vampire(Invoke Magic)
Invoke Magic Permeable Form
Vision of The omniscient eye
Dolorous Blow
Antecipate Teleport
Spiderskin
That Art Thou
Heroic x5
Whaithstrike
Chamaleon
Bladeweave
FellDrain Maximized Twin Cloud of Knive(Invoke Magic)
Find Trap
Forestfold
Gibliness(potion)
Primal Insting(potion)
Eye of Avoral
Strenght of the true form
undetectable aligment
Shieldbearer
Shadow Form


When Master of Shadows os attacked: Twin GAF
When the enemie use Time Stop: Time Spo
When Master of Shadows attack: Twin GAF
When Lord of Shadows start a counterspell: Srinshee's Spell Shift
When the Enemie use Celerity or Similar: Twin GAF x 14


Pay attention: This is a way to have a viable and acceptable battle on an adventure.
Infinite loop has no clear definition. So I will try to define it.

Any action which has no limit established then have any multiple feats, spells, bodys:
Example: Shun the Dark Chaos an Otughy Holed (Multiples Feats) or Other sites multiple times.
Infinite Greater Arcane Fusion
Infinite Money or a limit not set.
Infinite Spells or a limit not set
Any action that may be abusable accumulating the same effect repeatedly, even if it really is not infinite:
Example: Awaken + Animal shapechange = Magical Beast
New Animal shapechange + New Awake

Craft contingency spell is not an infinite loop, it has a set limit. Max your HIT DICE.

Detail, this build is able to use all these tricks. But it will be only a TO build.

FAQ:
Q: How you will use Metafaculty?
A: Mental Pinnacle + Psicrown Metafaculty + Use Psionic Device=60 Manifester level + Surge of Fortune

Q:How you will counter craft contingent spell?
A: Analyse Dweomer and know your trigger condition

Q: Mindsight can detect you?
A: No. Superior Invisibility block all senses except touch.

Q: Master of The Hunt Body?
A: This is a Optimized Character. True, Mindswift against Master of The Hunt Body

Q: Ice Assassin of youself?
A: Yes, Master of Shadows use your shadow clone to avoid dangerous. Ice Assassin + Mindrape + Necrotic Tumor

Q: Infinite spell or DC check?
A: No. Every spellcaster can use infinite loops, Master of Shadows never use more spell than Sorcerer daily spell + Charisma Bonus
Master of Shadowns limits its tainted score the most he would survive without evil subtype

Q: Towershield unable your attack?
A: Yes, but Arcane Fusion is not an offensive spell; Target:Personal

Q: Use Dragonpact/retraining/Shun of the dark chaos/Embrance of the dark chaos/Psychic Reformation is infinite loop?
A: No, Change limited spell/feat per another is no a infinite loop.

Q: How do you apply metamagic in lvl 9 spells?
A: Undead Battery




You can pick any famous character optimized to counter .
Infinite Loop character is not allowed.



Using stealth to approach to analyze the enemy. Soon, the Home attaque . I use the Ice Assassin , not to take any risk. ( Superior Invibility )
Step 1 : Daleyed Twin Greater Arcane Fusion
Step 2: Surprise Action + Twin Greater Arcane Fusion

Slot 7: Body Body outside ( 12 clones)
Slot 4: Sanctum Teleport ( Hide )

Each Clone : Cast Spell -like Celerity + Mage Disjuction against Exfight



Second Twin Greater Arcane Fusion

Slot 7: Sanctum Greater Celerity
Slot 4: Twin Celerity

6 standard action +2 move actions

Whirling Blade +148 Touch, Discharging Imprisonment (148 DC will , Greater Betow Curse ( uncontrollable mutation . )

or

Force shapechange ( DC 145 )

Using other actions to kill him .


Step 1) The Master of Shadows will analyze all target weaknesses. Analyze your contingent spells ( Countering it) .
To not be ambiguous , all my spells contingents have the same trigger(GAF contingency) that the H.I.V.E. Except 3:
1) When Master of Shadows attack : Twin GAF
2) When the enemie cast Time Stop or Similar: Time Stop
3) When Master of Shadows is attacked : Twin GAF


Step 2) Before the attack :
Daley Twin Repeat GAF :
Slot 7: Sanctum Greater Celerity
Slot 4: Twin Celerity
Standart 6 + 2 Action Move Action
Standart 6 + 2 Action Move Action next round.
Cast non persisted spells and smiting Spells + Invoke Magic

The attack + Contingency Twin GAF :
First GAF :
Slot 7: Body outside Body
Slot 4: Sanctum Arcane Fusion ( slot 4: Creepling Darkness , Slot 1: Sanctum Supernatural Wind Gust )
Gust Wind counter yours swarms

Second Twin GAF :

Slot 7: Antimagic Field
Slot 4: Whirling Blade


Metamagic Spells inside GAF :

Antimagic Field: Sculpt ( Line) + Selective Spell ( Ego Bastard Sword )
Whirling Blade: Sculpt ( Line) + Twin + Transdimentional Spell + Invoke Magic

Whirling Blade + Smiting Spell feat
Imprisonment : 168 Will Save
Greater Betow Curse : 167 Will Save
Death by thorn : 166 Will save



Of course, still has the action of the clones (Described Above) : It seems to be the end.

If H.I.V.E trying to cast a spell . A Clone cast Supernatural Stifle Spell
The target must succeed on a Concentration check ( DC equal to 158+ the level of the spell being cast) to ignore the distraction , or else it loses the spell .

Each clones cast Spell-like Celerity+Supernatural Time Stop

Use Enigma Aura(120 feet) + Supernatural Dimensional Lock + Prepare action to use Supernatural Mage disjunction when the target does any action.

If the target does not get to win 50 % Enigmatic Aura , use Supernatural Alter Fortune . ( Try again )
12 clones to H.I.V.E try kill.

[Gallowglass]

is it lord draco? I bet its lord draco

(I feel like 17 minutes has to be a new record for identifying a lorddrako post, y'all, I should be getting some kind of award for this shizznit.)

[ExLibrisMortis]

Feats: Cleave, Great Cleave, Greater Spell Focus (illusion), Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder, Persuasive, Power Attack, Spell Focus (illusion), Weapon Focus (greataxe)
Yep, that's a wizard-killer alright. Doesn't qualify for any of the PrCs, either. This is not even a finished post, it's just a copy-paste of a monster stat block with some numbers arbitrarily changed.

[ragevillain]

Yep, that's a wizard-killer alright. Doesn't qualify for any of the PrCs, either. This is not even a finished post, it's just a copy-paste of a monster stat block with some numbers arbitrarily changed.

I'm finishing up yet, you can rest assured , all pre -requisites are in.
It will take a while to be able to finish it , just wait .
And that's not a wizard killer .
I think he can do well against any class,
it takes a little time to detail .

[Gallowglass]

I'm finishing up yet, you can rest assured , all pre -requisites are in.
It will take a while to be able to finish it , just wait .
And that's not a wizard killer .
I think he can do well against any class,
it takes a little time to detail .

It is! It is!

[ragevillain]

It is! It is!
The ExFighter is more difficult than any wizard for instance

[OldTrees1]

is it lord draco? I bet its lord draco


It is! It is!

It feels like you are insinuating something. Is it something you can state bluntly without breaking forum rules?
Edit: Apparently it was solely insinuating the OP being an alternate account. (I can be dense at times)

[Gallowglass]

It feels like you are insinuating something. Is it something you can state bluntly without breaking forum rules?
Edit: Apparently it was solely insinuating the OP being an alternate account. (I can be dense at times)

insinuation involves hinting and suggesting and obfuscation. I am outright stating.


I love how his new build is such a cut and paste of his last build that he STILL has "delay spell" misspelled as "daley spell". I mean, he keeps building and rebuilding this guy but he still can't proofread it.

[Gallowglass]

The ExFighter is more difficult than any wizard for instance

I bet the ExFighter isn't more difficult than any sorcerers though, amiright? Because sorcerers are king, yo!

[Flickerdart]

I love how his new build is such a cut and paste of his last build that he STILL has "delay spell" misspelled as "daley spell". I mean, he keeps building and rebuilding this guy but he still can't proofread it.

The Daily Spell - Oerth's trusted source of news since 1973.

[AvatarVecna]

I wish him good luck in taking down Khepri. Hell, good luck in taking down the basic H.I.V.E. build.

[JNAProductions]

So... Which famous build is this meant to counter?

Pun-Pun? It can't be Pun-Pun, Pun-Pun owns this thing.

[TheIronGolem]

The Daily Spell - Oerth's trusted source of news since 1973.

I thought it was a spell that summons former Chicago mayor Richard Daley.

[Gallowglass]

I thought it was a spell that summons former Chicago mayor Richard Daley.

Its Metamagic, so perhaps it shapes your spell into the form of former Chicago mayor Richard Daley. You know, so you can throw a Firedaley at people instead of a fireball.

https://blifetoday.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/richard-j-daley.jpg you know, this guy, on fire, streaking toward you then exploding.

[ragevillain]

I bet the ExFighter isn't more difficult than any sorcerers though, amiright? Because sorcerers are king, yo!
Well, a Wizard or Archivist can replace my build . But I think for this particular build the sorcerer has advantage.
But there are several functions that the wizard has clear advantages .

[Buufreak]

It is! It is!

I've got the popcorn, who is bringing the nachos to this show?

[AvatarVecna]

I've got the popcorn, who is bringing the nachos to this show?

I've got several party bags of tortilla chips. I figured somebody else would bring the cheese, though. :smallwink:

[Gallowglass]

I've got several party bags of tortilla chips. I figured somebody else would bring the cheese, though. :smallwink:

https://i.imgflip.com/qrcox.jpg

[Madara]

I've got the popcorn, who is bringing the nachos to this show?

awww, I was gonna grab the popcorn.

If I call for one of our heroes, does that make me a damsel in distress? Red Fel, Red Fel, Red Fel!

Wait. I see Taint rules. So taint but no infinite loops? I mean, I think most T'OP builds aren't truly infinite, so they're fair play?

[Alcibiades]

Abilities Str 80, Dex 77, Con 51, Int 35, Wis
72, Cha 90
Feats 40 feats

What am I missing?

Which Famous builds are you 'countering' here?

[FearlessGnome]

...What is happening here? This seems to be a recurring user who is not taken terribly seriously. I don't recognize him, so can't comment on that, but the "Build" presented doesn't explain how anything is achieved, from the crazy stats to the boatload of feats and spells known.

[TheIronGolem]

Its Metamagic, so perhaps it shapes your spell into the form of former Chicago mayor Richard Daley. You know, so you can throw a Firedaley at people instead of a fireball.

you know, this guy, on fire, streaking toward you then exploding.

Ah yes, the fabled Democromancer build.

[ragevillain]

What am I missing?

Which Famous builds are you 'countering' here?
All this will be explained , but I need more time.

[Buufreak]

Red Fel, Red Fel, Red Fel!

Don't bother the dark one, he left these "builds" in the trash months ago the last time around. He has better things to do.

[Flickerdart]

All this will be explained , but I need more time.

Why didn't you just post when you were ready?

[AvatarVecna]

...What is happening here? This seems to be a recurring user who is not taken terribly seriously. I don't recognize him, so can't comment on that

The build in the OP is remarkably similar to another build that has popped up here before: it has similar mechanics, a similarly shaky grasp of the rules, even several of the same freaking misspellings. The relevant part is that the poster in question got banned after the first time they posted the build and spent 60+ thread pages being extremely argumentative, insulting to other posters, and acted at several points in direct opposition to instructions from a moderator (instructions intended to make the thread a bit less hostile). Now, that's not a problem; banning happens, especially when you treat other posters like garbage and ignore the mods when they tell you to stop doing a thing. Interestingly enough, a new thread popped up much later with basically the entire build copy-pasted in the OP, labelling it as a villain handbook and claiming this build was the ultimate sorcerer (although at least this time, there were no images of half-naked sorcerer dudes showing off their sick abs). Now, claiming that an account isan alternate account of a previously banned poster is a difficult claim to prove at the best of times, but this seemed a pretty clear case...right up to the point where the poster admitted to being an alternate account for the previously banned poster, at which point he was once again banned.

And here we are again: another suspiciously similar build, another suspiciously similar posting style, but at least this time there's enough differences that it's possible this isn't the same, so that means all we can really do is report our suspicion and then watch what happens...hence the fetching of popcorn and tortilla chips.

[TheIronGolem]

Why didn't you just post when you were ready?

Because "I need more time" is going to be his excuse every time he loses an argument about the legitimacy/efficacy of his build.

[ragevillain]

Why didn't you just post when you were ready?

I should have done it.

[OldTrees1]

...What is happening here? This seems to be a recurring user who is not taken terribly seriously. I don't recognize him, so can't comment on that, but the "Build" presented doesn't explain how anything is achieved, from the crazy stats to the boatload of feats and spells known.

The opening poster submitted the thread before they were done writing the opening post.

The opening poster is not being taken seriously because one person suspects they are an alternate account for a former member that was not taken seriously (perhaps justifiably) in one of those 40+ page argument threads.

As such you are seeing the forum react to Page 1 of this thread, even before the opening post is finished, as if it were just the next page of ridicule and argument of that 40+ page argument thread.

Welcome to Giants in the Playground. You are in for a bitter show.

[OldTrees1]

I should have done it.
Perhaps you still have time? Ask the mods if they can lock/delete this thread that you accidentally started before your opening post was ready?

Although all evidence points to the forum being toxic towards your posting this thread. So my honest advice would be to lock this thread, finish the opening post, and post it to another forum.

[Red Fel]

awww, I was gonna grab the popcorn.

If I call for one of our heroes, does that make me a damsel in distress? Red Fel, Red Fel, Red Fel!

Wait. I see Taint rules. So taint but no infinite loops? I mean, I think most T'OP builds aren't truly infinite, so they're fair play?

TREMBLE WITH FEAR, MORTALS, FOR I HAVE COME TO-

... is that popcorn? Dude, don't hog the popcorn.


Don't bother the dark one, he left these "builds" in the trash months ago the last time around. He has better things to do.

I honestly don't even know what's going on here. It looks like somebody posted something, claimed it was unfinished and took it down, and now everyone is commenting on how this bears a shocking resemblance to something that happened awhile back which we probably shouldn't be discussing you guys because reasons.

Mostly I'm just here for the nachos. Someone remembered nachos, right?

[Flickerdart]

I honestly don't even know what's going on here.

...

Mostly I'm just here for the nachos. Someone remembered nachos, right?

This is nacho average thread, that's for sure.

[AvatarVecna]

TREMBLE WITH FEAR, MORTALS, FOR I HAVE COME TO-

... is that popcorn? Dude, don't hog the popcorn.



I honestly don't even know what's going on here. It looks like somebody posted something, claimed it was unfinished and took it down, and now everyone is commenting on how this bears a shocking resemblance to something that happened awhile back which we probably shouldn't be discussing you guys because reasons.

Mostly I'm just here for the nachos. Someone remembered nachos, right?

As previously mentioned, I have lots of tortilla chips (and now salsa as well), but I assumed somebody else would be bringing the cheese.

[dascarletm]

Dang it Red Fel, I don't want you getting your lawful tendancies all up in my nacho and popcorn enjoyment! Your regulations stifle my creativity!


This is nacho average thread, that's for sure.

:smalltongue:

[Zanos]

...What is happening here?
Something beautiful, my friend. Something that will boil your eyes with it's radiance.

But I think for this particular build the sorcerer has advantage..https://media.giphy.com/media/YPIrsRqqO7oB2/giphy.gif

[Strigon]

Honestly, I think these threads (if this is, in fact, one of the aforementioned threads) are good for the community as a whole.
I mean, really, we've got running gags, reaction gifs, snacks, Evil Overlords...
Say what you want about OP, he's bringing The Playground together.

I reserve the right to retract this statement once the actual debating begins

[Seppo87]

Honestly, I think these threads (if this is, in fact, one of the aforementioned threads) are good for the community as a whole.
I mean, really, we've got running gags, reaction gifs, snacks, Evil Overlords...
Say what you want about OP, he's bringing The Playground together.

I reserve the right to retract this statement once the actual debating begins

I agree - forums are usually very impersonal: you know what users think but next to nothing about who they are; this kind of thread is a very fun and unexpected surprise

[Calthropstu]

TREMBLE WITH FEAR, MORTALS, FOR I HAVE COME TO-

... is that popcorn? Dude, don't hog the popcorn.



I honestly don't even know what's going on here. It looks like somebody posted something, claimed it was unfinished and took it down, and now everyone is commenting on how this bears a shocking resemblance to something that happened awhile back which we probably shouldn't be discussing you guys because reasons.

Mostly I'm just here for the nachos. Someone remembered nachos, right?

Damn you, now I want nachos.

[Calthropstu]

So, he has some sort of build.

I don't see why that should evoke these reactions.
Let him have his build.
And his cake.
And nachos.

DAMNIT I'M HUNGRY.

[Red Fel]

Damn you,

https://67.media.tumblr.com/d1c14f0ed73073e40bff753761251624/tumblr_n5owdoCAG81sykpjyo1_400.gif

Seriously, this thread is all hype and no payoff. Can I go back to my private hell now? I was ordering a pizza.

[OldTrees1]

So, he has some sort of build.

I don't see why that should evoke these reactions.
Let him have his build.
And his cake.
And nachos.

DAMNIT I'M HUNGRY.

Short answer: It shouldn't evoke these reactions. The forum is being excessively toxic for no good reason.

@Red Fel
You were ordering pizza? Why are you waiting around here for? Nachos can be good and all but almost nothing beats pizza.

[Gallowglass]

Short answer: It shouldn't evoke these reactions. The forum is being excessively toxic for no good reason.

@Red Fel
You were ordering pizza? Why are you waiting around here for? Nachos can be good and all but almost nothing beats pizza.

Old trees, if you are <i>insinuating</i> that i am the one being excessively toxic you need to go reread my posts. Ive been nothing but exuberant about this. I love a lorddrako build!

That being said, i fear i was too quick on calling him out and i may have frightened him off. Like a hesitant turtle he has taken his toy and slithered back into his shell. Sorry about that guys!

*is waiting to pick up indian takeout for dinner, sorry im missing out on the nacho pizza*

[OldTrees1]

Old trees, if you are <i>insinuating</i> that i am the one being excessively toxic you need to go reread my posts. Ive been nothing but exuberant about this. I love a lorddrako build!

That being said, i fear i was too quick on calling him out and i may have frightened him off. Like a hesitant turtle he has taken his toy and slithered back into his shell. Sorry about that guys!

No, while your initial 2 posts could be misread (I do apologize about that), I do not think you are being excessively toxic. The toxicity is more a result of the chain of signalling that followed rather than an individual's intention.

Turtles are known to retreat if the climate is not conducive to their activity.

[ben-zayb]

There was a villain handbook?

And what's the point of countering famous builds? At least, for TO that supposedly just aims to beat punpun, the point is showcasing beating the supposed most powerful.

[Zanos]

Short answer: It shouldn't evoke these reactions. The forum is being excessively toxic for no good reason.
If this is toxicity, I think some of the other forums might make you physically sick.

[thethird]

Hum!

I was reading the build on my phone and then when I went to post puff. Gone. Dammit the hype.

https://media.giphy.com/media/LFlT04CTtrwc/giphy.gif

[Red Fel]

@Red Fel
You were ordering pizza? Why are you waiting around here for? Nachos can be good and all but almost nothing beats pizza.

One, because I was called, I made the trip across the planes, and thrice damnit, I want a show for my troubles.

Two, do you know how long those deliveries can take? My last one took a quarter of a century. I ended up having to send a minion to kill the delivery guy while he was thinking lecherous thoughts simply to get him down here with my pizza already.

We're keeping him waiting in the sixth lobby. That's the one next to the scream room. Let him wait for delivery for a change.


There was a villain handbook?

Um... Hi? Have we, you know, met? I mean, I made a thing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?448542-Compliance-Will-Be-Rewarded-A-Guide-to-Lawful-Evil) and everything.

[Extra Anchovies]

Is OP really claiming to have a build that counters all of these (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258580-Famous-optimized-character-builds), many of which come online much earlier than 20th level? I'd say anyone who tries to do that is crazy (http://i.imgur.com/wh3HGdw.png).


Its Metamagic, so perhaps it shapes your spell into the form of former Chicago mayor Richard Daley. You know, so you can throw a Firedaley at people instead of a fireball.

https://blifetoday.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/richard-j-daley.jpg

you know, this guy, on fire, streaking toward you then exploding.

Spell Thematics (Richard Daley) is totally going in my next caster build.


This is nacho average thread, that's for sure.

Flickerdart, you're beautiful.

[ragevillain]

Already finished , lacking only show how to kill everyone, for obvious reasons I do not use infinite loops :smallbiggrin:

[JNAProductions]

Already finished , lacking only show how to kill everyone, for obvious reasons I do not use infinite loops :smallbiggrin:

Right folks, it's done! Tear it to shreds!

I'd do it myself, but my op-fu is rather weak.

[ragevillain]

Right folks, it's done! Tear it to shreds!

I'd do it myself, but my op-fu is rather weak.
I think a little difficult

[JNAProductions]

I think a little difficult

Assuming you're a new poster, there were two builds almost identical to this posted recently. (In the past few months, I think.) Both times, many holes were found in the design, and it failed to hold up to the smarter minds of GitP.

[ragevillain]

I believe you will not find holes to find, please tell me,
If you get me report any mistake , even tried to remove any possible doubt of interpretation. :smallsmile:
Priya and Mailmain
I used as a reference, I think they have improved.
This is my first build.

[AvatarVecna]

Ex Fighter, Mailman, and Priya aren't really theoretical optimization, but I suppose they're not exactly super-easy to kill either, so... *shrug*

I wish you good luck in killing a H.I.V.E., or Khepri for that matter.

[ragevillain]

I never said that they are easy .
My build is not theoretical , it takes no infinite loop and it has low cost.


Can u link these builds ?

[AvatarVecna]

I never said that they are easy .
My build is not theoretical , it takes no infinite loop and it has low cost.


Can u link these builds ?

Well, here's a list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258580-Famous-optimized-character-builds) of famous char-op builds (mostly theoretical, but a good number of practical). H.I.V.E. is somewhere in there, and Khepri is the build in my signature (although I'm currently working on an upgraded version that can use some of their technically-finite feats to take epic feats).

[Buufreak]

Can u link these builds ?

Has there ever been a compiled list of all the big bad builds of the forums?

Edit: thanks, Mr. Vecna. Always a good resource.

[JNAProductions]

I never said that they are easy .
My build is not theoretical , it takes no infinite loop and it has low cost.


Can u link these builds ?

Khepri is in AV's sig.

[AvatarVecna]

Has there ever been a compiled list of all the big bad builds of the forums?

Edit: thanks, Mr. Vecna. Always a good resource.

Being totally fair, it was previously linked in this thread, I just re-linked to it. But yeah, it's a good resource. It's not really super-complete though: I have no doubt there's lots of fantastic builds floating around that can accomplish quite a bit.

Incidentally, here's another link. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444245-1001-Fun-and-Optimized(Or-just-nonsuckish)-character-ideas!) These builds are more practical optimization (for the most part), but they're still interesting in their own right.

[ragevillain]

Well, I saw some problems with the Hive , Low spot check . And he needs a cohort optimized to access charisma and intelligence and he is using infinite loop.
This build I made can also use infinite loops, Twin Greater Arcane Fusion :
Slot7 : Sanctum Greater Arcane Fusion
Slot 4: Celerity

Infinite Actions, by logic it is banned.
But What happens when conjure Evil Weather or Disjunctun or Frostfell or Supernatural Holyword or a simple supernatural spell Gust of Wind , preventing their swarm ?

It is exactly why it is theorical H.I.V.E.


Twin greater arcane fusion
Slot 7: Sculpt Selective Spell Antimagic Field(Ball)
Slot 4: Sanctum Arcane Fusion
Slor 4: Twin Empowered FellDrain Hail of Stone
Slor 1: Twin Empowerd FellDrain Hail of Stone.

-8 Negative Level + High damage.

[ryu]

One, because I was called, I made the trip across the planes, and thrice damnit, I want a show for my troubles.

Two, do you know how long those deliveries can take? My last one took a quarter of a century. I ended up having to send a minion to kill the delivery guy while he was thinking lecherous thoughts simply to get him down here with my pizza already.

We're keeping him waiting in the sixth lobby. That's the one next to the scream room. Let him wait for delivery for a change.



Um... Hi? Have we, you know, met? I mean, I made a thing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?448542-Compliance-Will-Be-Rewarded-A-Guide-to-Lawful-Evil) and everything.

While I've no nachos, pizza, or popcorn I diiiid bring three metric tons of peanut butter fudge. It's so deliciously rich. Milk will be handed out in cases of emergency richness overload.

[AvatarVecna]

Well, I saw some problems with the Hive , Low spot check . And he needs a cohort optimized to access charisma and intelligence and he is using infinite loop.
This build I made can also use infinite loops, Twin Greater Arcane Fusion :
Slot7 : Sanctum Greater Arcane Fusion
Slot 4: Celerity

Infinite Actions, by logic it is banned.
But What happens when conjure Evil Weather , preventing their swarm ?

It is exactly why it is theorical H.I.V.E.

1) Khepri do not use infinite loops; Gate costs XP, which both of them pay, so it's a finite loop.

2) The second you start casting Twin Greater Arcane Fusion, you're going to get targeted by a googol of counterspells.

3) Khepri does not have infinite actions, she has arbitrarily high number of actions that are ultimately limited by how much XP she pours into it.

4) Khepri has googols of contingencies.

5) Conjure Evil Weather gets counterspelled as well...assuming I even bother, on account of making myself immune to everything anyway.

EDIT: Khepri has contingencies for everything, enough spells to counter everything you do, and enough spells to Dispel/Disjunction everything you do. And that's if she bothers, because she and her swarms are immune to everything anyway.

[ragevillain]

Avatar , I have not analyzed the Khepri .
I'm just talking about H.I.V.E

Greater Arcane Fusion is a supernatural ability , has no counterspell .
Detail, with analyzes dwomer I already analyzed all your contingencies .

[JNAProductions]

Detail, with analyzes dwomer I already analyzed all your contingencies .

Just gonna answer that, because that's all I can answer, not being the creator. But knowing what the contingencies do doesn't mean jack if you can't counter them.

[ragevillain]

Just gonna answer that, because that's all I can answer, not being the creator. But knowing what the contingencies do doesn't mean jack if you can't counter them.
Yes, that means .
In fact , it ends with the opponent's defenses.:smallbiggrin:
I really do not know how to counter the Evil Weather

[JNAProductions]

Yes, that means .
In fact , it ends with the opponent's defenses.:smallbiggrin:
I really do not know how to counter the Evil Weather

Disjunction, maybe? With an arbitrarily high caster level?

[ragevillain]

Supernatural Wish : Duplicate Evil Weather , disjunction does not work.

[JNAProductions]

Supernatural Wish : Duplicate Evil Weather , disjunction does not work.

I'm not sure that's accurate. pretty sure Disjunction affects ALL magical effects.

[ragevillain]

Supernatural

By default, supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field. However, some creatures have psionic abilities that are considered supernatural. Psionic feats are also supernatural abilities. These abilities do not function in areas where psionics is suppressed.
Supernatural abilities of either type are not subject to spell resistance nor power resistance. Supernatural abilities cannot be dispelled and are not subject to counterspells. Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise. Supernatural abilities may have a use limit or be usable at will, just like spell-like abilities. However, supernatural abilities do not provoke attacks of opportunity and never require Concentration checks. Unless otherwise noted, a supernatural ability has an effective caster level equal to the creature’s Hit Dice. The saving throw (if any) against a supernatural ability is 10 + 1/2 the creature’s HD + the creature’s ability modifier (usually Charisma).
See the tables below for a summary of the types of special abilities.


Disjunction
That is, spells and spell-like effects are separated into their individual components (ending the effect as a dispel magic spell does), and each permanent magic item must make a successful Will save or be turned into a normal item. An item in a creature’s possession uses its own Will save bonus or its possessor’s Will save bonus, whichever is higher.

[JNAProductions]

You forgot this line:


All magical effects and magic items within the radius of the spell, except for those that you carry or touch, are disjoined.

Note the all. Supernatural abilities are magical.

[AvatarVecna]

Avatar , I have not analyzed the Khepri .
I'm just talking about H.I.V.E

Greater Arcane Fusion is a supernatural ability , has no counterspell .
Detail, with analyzes dwomer I already analyzed all your contingencies .

If you were talking about the HIVE, I'm not sure why you're discussing "infinite actions", because the HIVE has no such thing.


Supernatural Wish : Duplicate Evil Weather , disjunction does not work.

With Khepri, Supernatural abilities aren't going to get counterspelled...but they're going to trigger a few billion contingencies, which will be several Disjunctions centered around you, tearing through your magical defenses, enough blasting spells to annihilate the planet, and more SoDs than you can shake a partially-charged wand at.

[ragevillain]

This is a question to be resolved , but no problem. The question is simple , where the disjunction will be cast ?
And disjunction can be conterspelled .

[Morcleon]

Supernatural

By default, supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field. However, some creatures have psionic abilities that are considered supernatural. Psionic feats are also supernatural abilities. These abilities do not function in areas where psionics is suppressed.
Supernatural abilities of either type are not subject to spell resistance nor power resistance. Supernatural abilities cannot be dispelled and are not subject to counterspells. Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise. Supernatural abilities may have a use limit or be usable at will, just like spell-like abilities. However, supernatural abilities do not provoke attacks of opportunity and never require Concentration checks. Unless otherwise noted, a supernatural ability has an effective caster level equal to the creature’s Hit Dice. The saving throw (if any) against a supernatural ability is 10 + 1/2 the creature’s HD + the creature’s ability modifier (usually Charisma).
See the tables below for a summary of the types of special abilities.


Disjunction
That is, spells and spell-like effects are separated into their individual components (ending the effect as a dispel magic spell does), and each permanent magic item must make a successful Will save or be turned into a normal item. An item in a creature’s possession uses its own Will save bonus or its possessor’s Will save bonus, whichever is higher.

You're emphasizing the wrong parts:

Supernatural abilities are magical (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbilities)

All magical effects and magic items within the radius of the spell, except for those that you carry or touch, are disjoined. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesDisjunction.htm)

[ragevillain]

If you were talking about the HIVE, I'm not sure why you're discussing "infinite actions", because the HIVE has no such thing.



With Khepri, Supernatural abilities aren't going to get counterspelled...but they're going to trigger a few billion contingencies, which will be several Disjunctions centered around you, tearing through your magical defenses, enough blasting spells to annihilate the planet, and more SoDs than you can shake a partially-charged wand at.

Detail , the character can not put 1 billion contigenties.
Already is a big problem .

[JNAProductions]

Detail , the character can not put 1 billion contigenties.
Already is a big problem .

Craft Contingency Feat, taken many, many times.

[ragevillain]

No, max 20.
See contigency itens.

[JNAProductions]

Sorry, it's called Craft Contingent Spell.


You know how to attach semipermanent spells to a creature and set them to activate under certain conditions.
Prerequisite: Caster level 11th.
Benefit: You can make contingent any spell that you know. Crafting a contingent spell takes one day for each 1,000 gp in its base price (spell level x caster level x 100 gp). To craft a contingent spell, you must spend 1/25 of this base price in XP and use up raw materials costing one-half the base price. Some spells incur extra costs in material components or XP (as noted in their descriptions), which must be paid when the contingent spell is created.

No limit.

[AvatarVecna]

This is a question to be resolved , but no problem. The question is simple , where the disjunction will be cast ?
And disjunction can be conterspelled .

As previously stated, it's several disjuctions centered around you - not targeting you. Yes, that was intentional. You're still in the area, though. Also, because Counterspelling is based on the Ready action, you can't really pull off more than 1 per round, and Khepri is sending quite a few of them at you.


Detail , the character can not put 1 billion contigenties.
Already is a big problem .

Even without resorting to Craft Contingent Spell (with is totally an option), Khepri herself only has one contingency...but every one of her (2 googol)3 swarms also has one contingency. It kinda adds up.

[ragevillain]

Complete Arcane, pg 140.
No MAX 20, if you are level 20.

No,craft contigency spell has its limits. Detail , I know all enemie contigencys . It is a serious problem.

[ragevillain]

As previously stated, it's several disjuctions centered around you - not targeting you. Yes, that was intentional. You're still in the area, though. Also, because Counterspelling is based on the Ready action, you can't really pull off more than 1 per round, and Khepri is sending quite a few of them at you.



Even without resorting to Craft Contingent Spell (with is totally an option), Khepri herself only has one contingency...but every one of her (2 googol)3 swarms also has one contingency. It kinda adds up.

Not Work, TowerShield block your Disjunction, And that contingency does not make sense

[Extra Anchovies]

Detail , the character can not put 1 billion contigenties.
Already is a big problem .

You know, I have to agree with OP here. I think the one contingent spell from Contingency is totally fine, but "you trigger my uncountable contingencies, I win" is a cop-out. Contingency spam just turns TO caster-fights into this:

"Bang! I shot you!"
"No you didn't! I have an invincible shield!"
"Yes I did! I have an unstoppable force!"
"No you didn't! I have an immovable object!"
...

Still, a HIVE build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16924377&postcount=10) knows every printed spell of 8th level or lower via Extra Spell, has "yes" spells per day of each level, and can cast a number of spells per round equal to the number of swarms in the hivemind, so it almost certainly has every defensive spell active simultaneously. Restricting them to one contingency spell per swarm isn't too much of a reduction in power :smalltongue:

Edit: HIVE builds such as Khepri (which is apparently its own trick somehow?) can pile on lots and lots of swarms, so between that and Reserves of Strength they don't need Craft Contingent Spell to ascend into "I win because I said so" bullsh*t territory, but my points (both about contingent spells and the HIVE's non-contingent defensive abilities) both stand.

[AvatarVecna]

Not Work, TowerShield block your Disjunction, And that contingency does not make sense

Even if we ignore the ridiculousness of the Tower Shield providing you full cover from Disjunctions on every side of you going off basically simultaneously, a Tower Shield only provides full cover if you're giving up your attacks to do so; these contingencies were triggered by you casting a spell, indicating that you are not, in fact, using your action to take total cover behind your shield.

Also, what about my Contingencies doesn't make sense? Each member of my hivemind is a separate creature with their own stat block, their own actions, etc.

[ragevillain]

Dude, why RAW this does not work , TowerShield block your disjunction . You do not know who your enemy , you probably do not know who is attacking you . My Ice Assassin that attacking H.I.V.E , not me.


Again, it is always Contingency TO. Evil Weather continues to affect the warms . But it's not all that can stop them.

Wind Gust , Weather Evil , Supernatural HolyWord , Frostfell , and others .

[Buddy76]

Tower shields work against antimagic fields because those are emanations. Since mage's disjunction is not an emanation I don't believe it would work, even if you were hiding behind the shield.

[ragevillain]

Burst is blocked too.

[JNAProductions]

Burst is blocked too.

Yeah, I think according to how it works, a Tower Shield will work.

Now, it fails HERE because you aren't using your action to provide cover, and the disjunctions are coming from all around. But in theory, this works.

[ragevillain]

Twin greater arcane fusion


Slot 7: Sanctum Greater Celerity
Slot 4: Twin Celerity

6 Standard actions +2 move

I have an incredible economy action


ShieldBearer work nice here. :smallbiggrin:

[Buddy76]

Yeah, I think according to how it works, a Tower Shield will work.

Now, it fails HERE because you aren't using your action to provide cover, and the disjunctions are coming from all around. But in theory, this works.

Fair enough.

[AvatarVecna]

You know, I have to agree with OP here. I think the one contingent spell from Contingency is totally fine, but "you trigger my uncountable contingencies, I win" is a cop-out. Contingency spam just turns TO caster-fights into this:


Still, a HIVE build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16924377&postcount=10) knows every printed spell of 8th level or lower via Extra Spell, has "yes" spells per day of each level, and can cast a number of spells per round equal to the number of swarms in the hivemind, so it almost certainly has every defensive spell active simultaneously. Restricting them to one contingency spell per swarm isn't too much of a reduction in power :smalltongue:

Edit: HIVE builds such as Khepri (which is apparently its own trick somehow?) can pile on lots and lots of swarms, so between that and Reserves of Strength they don't need Craft Contingent Spell to ascend into "I win because I said so" bullsh*t territory, but my points (both about contingent spells and the HIVE's non-contingent defensive abilities) both stand.

I absolutely agree that it's pretty BS, even with the "one contingency per swarm" thing. That's kinda the point though: when I was pointing out that Khepri just kinda wipes the floor with them on account of her having smashed the action economy into more pieces than their are atoms in the observable universe, they responded not with "okay yeah, but Khepri is bull****, I'm not even gonna try and defend myself against something like that", the responded with "actually, that doesn't work".

I tend to count Khepri as her own trick because she's essentially a standard HIVE taken to the logical extreme, but it's barely necessary; the standard HIVE build has hundreds of contingencies, and any dozen of those could be Time Stops set to trigger if somebody else does something that could actually threaten the HIVE, at which point the HIVE uses layered time stops to teleport elsewhere and take a rest break to regain all their spells and strategize.

A standard 20th lvl caster, without hivemind bull****, can become immune to everything and untouchable on their private demiplane. Hivemind just makes it worse by taking away the one limit spellcasters really worry about: spells per day.


Dude, why RAW this does not work , TowerShield block your disjunction . You do not know who your enemy , you probably do not know who is attacking you . My Ice Assassin that attacking H.I.V.E , not me.


Again, it is always Contingency TO. Evil Weather continues to affect the warms . But it's not all that can stop them.

Wind Gust , Weather Evil , Supernatural HolyWord , Frostfell , and others .

1) How? Tower Shield only grants you full cover if you're using your action to give yourself full cover; these contingencies were triggered by you using your action on a Supernatural thing. And again, that's ignoring that it's multiple Disjunctions going off all around you at the same time; how is your Tower Shield providing full cover in every direction..

2) The Contingencies aren't geared to you specifically, they're triggered by anybody taking a particular action against me. lesser casters would actually need to chart out all their contingencies, but Khepri has more contingencies than atoms in the universe, she's got several billion contingencies for every option in the game that could possibly come up and then some.

3) Everything Supernatural gets Disjunctions on top of it, which as established there's no way you have full cover from all of them. Everything that's a spell gets countered/dispelled/contingency'd into not working.

4) Even if I don't do anything, I'm immune to everything anyway, so Evil Weather, Gust Of Wind, Supernatural Holy Word, and everything else does nothing.

[AvatarVecna]

Twin greater arcane fusion


Slot 7: Sanctum Greater Celerity
Slot 4: Twin Celerity

6 Standard actions +2 move

I have an incredible economy action


ShieldBearer work nice here. :smallbiggrin:

You only get those if your spells go off, which they don't because they get countered/dispelled/disjunction'd.

Shield Bearer only makes a shield provide its shield bonus to AC without requiring you to hold it; you still need your action to get full cover from it.

[ragevillain]

Again , I'm not attacking you the characters are not seeing me . You are being attacked by the Ice Assassin . The Master is safe

Towershield:
This massive wooden shield is nearly as tall as you are. In most situations, it provides the indicated shield bonus to your AC. However, you can instead use it as total cover, though you must give up your attacks to do so. The shield does not, however, provide cover against targeted spells; a spellcaster can cast a spell on you by targeting the shield you are holding. You cannot bash with a tower shield, nor can you use your shield hand for anything else.
When employing a tower shield in combat, you take a –2 penalty on attack rolls because of the shield’s encumbrance.

no action, detail, I can use any supernatural ability or Still spells when i want or contingency spell.

To recall , the Master of Shadow already know you will cast Disjuntion . It is not a surprise.

[Buufreak]

Again , I'm not attacking you the characters are not seeing me ...

Towershield:
However, you can instead use it as total cover, though you must give up your attacks to do so.

no action, detail, I can use any supernatural ability or Still spells when i want or contingency spell.

So now we need to define "attack" vs "action." If I remember my RAW correctly, an attack is any action taken that in some way harms another creature. I'm fairly sure all the spells listed thus far qualify.

Edited for quote relevance.

[ragevillain]

That does not stop my actions. This is a fact.

[AvatarVecna]

Fine then. The first round of Disjunctions go off without anything happening, because your Tower Shield is teleporting around your body to provide full cover from all of them. At that point, the blasting spells start going off, inevitably destroying your tower shield once you fail to roll a 20 on the save (because the save DC is too high to make). At this point, more Disjunctions start going off, and this time you've got no Tower Shield to protect you. Once the second wave of Disjunctions go off, your Ice Assassin is defenseless magically...at which point more blasting spells begin going off, inevitably killing the Ice Assassin once they fail enough of them. This is all Contingencies, so your spell doesn't go off until after they're all done...and your Ice Assassin will inevitably be dead before that happens.

Limited Wish-->Improvisation gives me 16*googol3 points of luck to work with; even attaching just +1 billion to every roll, I'll have enough uses to be making skill checks until the heat death of the universe. And that's ignoring how I'll have every special sense in existence.

And that's ignoring how I don't even need to find out where you are, because my contingencies triggered by somebody casting that spell close by enough to cast it, so I'll just sprinkle Disjunctions everywhere within range. It's not like I'm ever going to run out of Contingent Disjunctions, because I have Contingent Time Stops waiting to give me a full nights rest to regain my spell slots if I'm ever in danger of having less than a few googol spells.

[OldTrees1]

So now we need to define "attack" vs "action." If I remember my RAW correctly, an attack is any action taken that in some way harms another creature. I'm fairly sure all the spells listed thus far qualify.

Would you please cite that reading of "attack"? My intuition makes me think it is only includes things with an attack roll (you know, the thing that Tower Shields give a penalty to?).

Were you thinking about what breaks Invisibility or is stopped by Sanctuary? Invisibility defines a strictly internal definition of attack and thus is not relevant to Tower Shield. Sanctuary protects against more than just attacks so I would not cite it either.

[ragevillain]

Its not only Ice Assassin:

Ice Assassin Casting

Greater Arcane Fusion:
Slot 7: Body Outside Body (12Clones)
Slot 4: Sanctum Teleport


What is the real target? . In this case already difficult enough.
Clones uses spell-like celerity and supernatural mage disjunction. :smallsmile:
If you attack my clones, they share Wings of Cover.

[ComaVision]

Would you please cite that reading of "attack"? My intuition makes me think it is only includes things with an attack roll (you know, the thing that Tower Shields give a penalty to?).

This is my understanding as well. I would be interested to see the relevant text.

[AvatarVecna]

Its not only Ice Assassin:

Ice Assassin Casting

Greater Arcane Fusion:
Slot 7: Body Outside Body (12Clones)
Slot 4: Santuctum Teleport

Clones uses spell-like celerity and supernatural mage disjunction. :smallsmile:
If you attack my clones, they share Wings of Cover.

Your Ice Assassin only gets to cast those spells after all my contingencies go off, which they won't survive. Oh, you have contingencies that trigger to give you actions if I try that? I have a trillion trillion trillion contingencies for every action you could possibly take, including your own contingencies activating.

[AvatarVecna]

Yeah, done feeding the troll at this point. Have fun convincing yourself you can somehow beat nigh-uncountable contingencies on the draw.

[ragevillain]

Detail, H.I.V.E can not affect the Ice Assassins . U need infinite xp and endless days

Dude, if you want to use endless craft contingency , infinite cohort , each and every ice assassin and clones can use endless actions.

Supernatural Greater Arcane Fusion
Slot 7: Sanctum Greater Arcane Fusion
Slor 4: Twin Celerity .
So we are endless actions.
So let's stop talking about infinite loops.
Just show me how TO build will never be real.
H.I.V.E can use infinite Mage Disjuntion and continue without any effect.

[Buufreak]

Would you please cite that reading of "attack"? My intuition makes me think it is only includes things with an attack roll (you know, the thing that Tower Shields give a penalty to?).

Were you thinking about what breaks Invisibility or is stopped by Sanctuary? Invisibility defines a strictly internal definition of attack and thus is not relevant to Tower Shield. Sanctuary protects against more than just attacks so I would not cite it either.

Afb at work. Will track it down when I get home in about 5 hours.

[Zanos]

Yeah, done feeding the troll at this point. Have fun convincing yourself you can somehow beat nigh-uncountable contingencies on the draw.
Another successful lord draco thread!

*Munches Popcorn*

[ryu]

Another successful lord draco thread!

*Munches Popcorn*

Ah.... No one wants the fudge I mentioned last page.

[OldTrees1]

Afb at work. Will track it down when I get home in about 5 hours.

Thank you. I hope your day goes smoothly.

[Buufreak]

Thank you. I hope your day goes smoothly.

Awww. You're my new favorite. Thanks mate.

[Demidos]

Just stopping by momentarily --

As far as I can recall, the closest definition to attack I remember coming across in my reading is from the Invisibility spell, which states...

"The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe."

Not the most helpful definition, but hey, maybe it helps.

[ragevillain]

Just stopping by momentarily --

As far as I can recall, the closest definition to attack I remember coming across in my reading is from the Invisibility spell, which states...

"The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe."

Not the most helpful definition, but hey, maybe it helps.

good definition:smallredface:
But for that spell, in the case of towershield it is clear that refers to physical combat .

[Morcleon]

good definition:smallredface:
But for that spell, in the case of towershield it is clear that refers to physical combat .

Not necessarily. A tower shield makes no clarification on the word "attack", so Demidos' given definition is probably correct. Either that, or the one from Sanctuary, which is the same thing. Besides, I'm pretty sure that casting as hostile spell is pretty attack-y either way.

[ragevillain]

Good , but it does not matter . Because Craft Contingency spell can not target the enemy.
Pag 140 complete arcane :
Once triggered , the spell take immediate effect upon the bearer contingency (Or is centered in the bearer 's squere if the spell Affect an area).
If the enemie use mage disjunction as craft contingent spell, he will disjoin himself.

[Extra Anchovies]

Good , but it does not matter . Because Craft Contingency spell can not target the enemy.
Pag 140 complete arcane :
Once triggered , the spell take immediate effect upon the bearer contingency (Or is centered in the bearer 's squere if the spell Affect an area).
If the enemie use mage disjunction as craft contingent spell, he will disjoin himself.

The Contingency spell (which can be Reserves of Strength'd to work with spells of any level) does not contain similar language, but states "the spell to be brought into effect by the contingency must be one that affects your person".

I'm not in agreement with OP on any points they try to make based on this, but I am curious about how the HIVE and/or any other build gets around those limits, if it is possible to do so.

[Gallowglass]

The Contingency spell (which can be Reserves of Strength'd to work with spells of any level) does not contain similar language, but states "the spell to be brought into effect by the contingency must be one that affects your person".

I'm not in agreement with OP on any points they try to make based on this, but I am curious about how the HIVE and/or any other build gets around those limits, if it is possible to do so.

It doesn't. They don't. All the TO builds are just as ridiculous and poor rules-definition dependent as LordDrako's ultimate abbed sorcerer. The Lord of Shadows is no more ridiculous than HIVE or Tippy or any of the others. Although, he excels in using AS MANY DIFFERENT ridiculous rulings as its possible to use instead of focusing on getting the most out of just one. The only reason LordDrako's build doesn't get put on the shelf with the other TO builds is because of how violently and silly he defends it in his threads and how angry he gets the forum regulars who he baits into confrontation.

[OldTrees1]

Just stopping by momentarily --

As far as I can recall, the closest definition to attack I remember coming across in my reading is from the Invisibility spell, which states...

"The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe."

Not the most helpful definition, but hey, maybe it helps.
Bolded for emphasis. That rather specific and explicit qualifier makes me think it is a strictly internal definition of "attack".


Not necessarily. A tower shield makes no clarification on the word "attack", so Demidos' given definition is probably correct. Either that, or the one from Sanctuary, which is the same thing. Besides, I'm pretty sure that casting as hostile spell is pretty attack-y either way.
See above about the strictly internal definition in Invisibility.
I mentioned that Sanctuary stops more than just attacks, so my reading of it does not see it as defining attack.

However I agree that showing neither Invisibility nor Sanctuary are relevant definitions would not prove the extent of what is the relevant definition for Tower Shield. Hence why I am patiently waiting for Buufreak's examination of his books tonight. (Although my intuition is that Tower Shield considers something an attack if it has an attack roll).

[ragevillain]

Man, I do not know who is lord dark . Second, Master of Shadow is not changing any rules. I'm giving page and book for everybody see .
This is a Practical Build , it is cheap (no items or cost) and has no infinite loop.

[ragevillain]

However I agree that showing neither Invisibility nor Sanctuary are relevant definitions would not prove the extent of what is the relevant definition for Tower Shield. Hence why I am patiently waiting for Buufreak's examination of his books tonight. (Although my intuition is that Tower Shield considers something an attack if it has an attack roll).

I think it has to do with attack roll. That seems kind of obvious .:smallannoyed:

[FearlessGnome]

I think it has to do with attack roll. That seems kind of obvious .:smallannoyed:

So... Wail of the Banshee wouldn't be an 'attack'? :smallconfused: Or Fireball? And a lot of monster entries have 'special' attacks that don't involve any rolls on their part.

[Flickerdart]

I think it has to do with attack roll. That seems kind of obvious .:smallannoyed:

Oh, how wrong you are.

As just one of many examples (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/swarm.htm) - swarms unambiguously attack, and also unambiguously never roll attack rolls.

[ragevillain]

Well, all the doubts that exist, I am against my interpretation and accepting in the enemy's advantage.
I can not cast offensive actions.
Soon, Greater Arcane Fusion is a personal target. I can use without problem. :smallredface:
Including creating clones next to me.
They can also cast spell-like Wings of Cover ( Sharing with me ).
It works the same way as the TowerShield . And still confuses the enemy.

Do you agree?

[ComaVision]

Oh, how wrong you are.

As just one of many examples (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/swarm.htm) - swarms unambiguously attack, and also unambiguously never roll attack rolls.

I'd argue that is hundreds/thousands of attacks that would have individual attack rolls but it has been simplified. Though, I acknowledge this holds no water in a RAW discussion.



It works the same way as the TowerShield . And still confuses the enemy.

Do you agree?

I'm certainly confused.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Can we jump straight to the 'formal tournament' stage of the discussion, instead of waiting fifty pages :smalltongue:? It'd be interested to see what various builds can do. As per ragevillain's own contest rules, infinite loops and epic levels are banned, and Dragon Magazine, but everything else is in, including optional mechanics like taint (that's going to be hugely problematic, but hey, it means you can use bloodline cheese with impunity).

[Flickerdart]

I'd argue that is hundreds/thousands of attacks that would have individual attack rolls but it has been simplified.
Surely many attack rolls should be simplified to one attack roll, rather than none?

[OldTrees1]

Oh, how wrong you are.

As just one of many examples (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/swarm.htm) - swarms unambiguously attack, and also unambiguously never roll attack rolls.

Good support for a counter argument. Whether it is sufficient for a disproof with regards to Tower Shield is not something I am touching. However it does change my intuition.


I notice that a swarm's "attack" is listed in the "Attack:" line of the stat block. This is the same line that weapon and natural attacks land in but weapon-like spells do not. What about this proposed definition of attack "things that would be listed in the 'Attack:' line of a stat block"?


Surely many attack rolls should be simplified to one attack roll, rather than none?
Uhh, no? Simplifying it to one roll would be a terrible modelling of the aggregate. Average result (no attack roll, just damage) is a more accurate and precise model.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Surely many attack rolls should be simplified to one attack roll, rather than none?
Maybe the swarm's members' attacks can only ever hit on a 20, so you're effectively rolling to see how many creatures get lucky? Not that it's super important either way, but that's what I would think.

Can we jump straight to the 'formal tournament' stage of the discussion, instead of waiting fifty pages :smalltongue:? It'd be interested to see what various builds can do. As per ragevillain's own contest rules, infinite loops and epic levels are banned, and Dragon Magazine, but everything else is in, including optional mechanics like taint (that's going to be hugely problematic, but hey, it means you can use bloodline cheese with impunity).

[ComaVision]

Surely many attack rolls should be simplified to one attack roll, rather than none?

Due to the number of attacks, it's essentially impossible that none would hit. Assuming any individual bite (or whatever) would only be worth fractions of a point of damage, rolling 2 damage would be X bites were a natty 20.

EDIT: Leave it to me to be the last person to answer a question directed at me lol

[Madara]

It doesn't. They don't. All the TO builds are just as ridiculous and poor rules-definition dependent as LordDrako's ultimate abbed sorcerer. The Lord of Shadows is no more ridiculous than HIVE or Tippy or any of the others. Although, he excels in using AS MANY DIFFERENT ridiculous rulings as its possible to use instead of focusing on getting the most out of just one. The only reason LordDrako's build doesn't get put on the shelf with the other TO builds is because of how violently and silly he defends it in his threads and how angry he gets the forum regulars who he baits into confrontation.

I mean, Tippy is more about the analysis of the effects the strange magical RAW would have on the game. I certainly wouldn't put him in the same descriptor as TO builds like HIVE. Furthermore, the only builds that get noted are those that find new material. This build isn't transformative nor innovative. That is the reason it doesn't end on the shelf.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This build includes some unusual sources (looking at you, Undead Batteries) and most of the tricks already uncovered by the community. It's not really transformative enough to warrant much recognition. Finally, if we wanna play games and be normal RAW discussers, then technically Pun-Pun would be fair game, since he isn't actually a truly infinite loop.
TLDR;
1. Define Infinite loop, because technically there are only like 2 or three truly infinite loop builds, and this post displays several of those tricks, merely choosing not to take it to its full extent.
2. Please have source tags, at least for unusual materials.
3. Things like Taint rules could be an issue. Is there a version without taint?
4. Consumptive field shenanigans are kinda low grade.

[Gallowglass]

I mean, Tippy is more about the analysis of the effects the strange magical RAW would have on the game. I certainly wouldn't put him in the same descriptor as TO builds like HIVE. Furthermore, the only builds that get noted are those that find new material. This build isn't transformative nor innovative. That is the reason it doesn't end on the shelf.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This build includes some unusual sources (looking at you, Undead Batteries) and most of the tricks already uncovered by the community. It's not really transformative enough to warrant much recognition. Finally, if we wanna play games and be normal RAW discussers, then technically Pun-Pun would be fair game, since he isn't actually a truly infinite loop.
TLDR;
1. Define Infinite loop, because technically there are only like 2 or three truly infinite loop builds, and this post displays several of those tricks, merely choosing not to take it to its full extent.
2. Please have source tags, at least for unusual materials.
3. Things like Taint rules could be an issue. Is there a version without taint?
4. Consumptive field shenanigans are kinda low grade.

Sorry, I typed Tippy when I meant PunPun. I got no beef with Tippy.

Good point about new and inventive.

[LTwerewolf]

I was hoping this thread would be interesting. It was for a moment, but ceased to be. I feel flickerdart's quote applies to "new" builds like these as well.

[Flickerdart]

I was hoping this thread would be interesting. It was for a moment, but ceased to be. I feel flickerdart's quote applies to "new" builds like these as well.

There's a fundamental issue with threads like this - "here is my build intended to beat X." The thread always draws an arbitrary line and says "here is 'real' D&D and everything stronger is cheese." But because D&D is not linear, the line usually ends up gerrymandering resources in such a way that all builds not using the exact cheese the OP uses can be declared 'not real D&D' or "not PO" or whatever.

[LTwerewolf]

There's a fundamental issue with threads like this - "here is my build intended to beat X." The thread always draws an arbitrary line and says "here is 'real' D&D and everything stronger is cheese." But because D&D is not linear, the line usually ends up gerrymandering resources in such a way that all builds not using the exact cheese the OP uses can be declared 'not real D&D' or "not PO" or whatever.

The OP refuses to acknowledge use of infinite loops, saying arbitrarily high is also infinite, while using that very thing (arbitrarily high) themselves, nullifying the entire exercise. I found it very disappointing. I enjoy looking at TO and PO builds that are interesting.

[ATalsen]

Would you please cite that reading of "attack"? My intuition makes me think it is only includes things with an attack roll (you know, the thing that Tower Shields give a penalty to?).

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm

Attacks
Some spell descriptions refer to attacking. All offensive combat actions, even those that don’t damage opponents are considered attacks. Attempts to turn or rebuke undead count as attacks. All spells that opponents resist with saving throws, that deal damage, or that otherwise harm or hamper subjects are attacks. Spells that summon monsters or other allies are not attacks because the spells themselves don’t harm anyone.


(Pathfinder has the same language)

[Madara]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm
... All spells that opponents resist with saving throws, that deal damage, or that otherwise harm or hamper subjects are attacks.


You know, I believe Dungeons and Dragons never included a definition for hamper.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/-DLFBDAds7I/hqdefault.jpg

[Buufreak]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm

Attacks
Some spell descriptions refer to attacking. All offensive combat actions, even those that don’t damage opponents are considered attacks. Attempts to turn or rebuke undead count as attacks. All spells that opponents resist with saving throws, that deal damage, or that otherwise harm or hamper subjects are attacks. Spells that summon monsters or other allies are not attacks because the spells themselves don’t harm anyone.


(Pathfinder has the same language)

Does this exempt me from digging through my 150+ books? If so, I feel I have just a few things to touch on/agree with, thusly in order:

1. Sometimes we, as a whole, do need posts like this, if nothing more than for the good laugh of it all.

2. Yes, can we please skip the bickering, post the builds, and run the numbers?

3. I am beginning to enjoy these threads almost as much as the Regulars as X posts, if nothing more than being able to enjoy the time spent together with the like-minded.

4. I finally got the cheese and salsa, where did that fudge go?

[ryu]

Does this exempt me from digging through my 150+ books? If so, I feel I have just a few things to touch on/agree with, thusly in order:

1. Sometimes we, as a whole, do need posts like this, if nothing more than for the good laugh of it all.

2. Yes, can we please skip the bickering, post the builds, and run the numbers?

3. I am beginning to enjoy these threads almost as much as the Regulars as X posts, if nothing more than being able to enjoy the time spent together with the like-minded.

4. I finally got the cheese and salsa, where did that fudge go?

There you go. Fifty pounds of sweet peanutbuttery goodness.

http://simplefood365.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/peanut-butter-fudge-on-a-plate-4174.jpg

Looks good don't it?

[Beheld]

I have to agree with the guy pointing out that "infinite loops are not allowed, and I'm not using infinite loops, just NI large numbers of things!" basically renders this pointless. Sarruk stat boosting is already NI numbers on it's own. (I don't think that the "write your own ability" thing is actually rules legal, but I also don't care, since I don't need it for this example.)

So right off the bat I propose: Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/DweomerKeeper 5: This character is a Kobold or whatever, it doesn't matter. Things it does:

1) Uses Supernatural Wishes to get infinite magic items, including scrolls of for example, Embrace and Shun the Dark Choas
2) Buys an Otughy Hole.
3) Has every single feat in the entire game the maximum number of times that feat can be taken.
4) Has a CL of whatever NI number it wants.
5) Does the Familiar Stat Dance to have stats of whatever NI numbers it wants.
6) Persists spells NI times from it's NI pool of spells. Go look up every spell that exists that would be good to have on you, it has those on it.
7) It can See in Magical Darkness which bypasses Blacklight.
8) It can roll 1d20+999999999999999999999999 for spot checks, so it beats your 202 hide. On the other hand, you can never beat his +9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 9999999999 hide modifer!
9) The character has Touchsight and Mindsight if Mindsight is blocked by Mindblank, well he has Mindblank too, if Touchsight it blocked by Incorporeality, then he that too. He of course has Superior Invisibility, and also Darkstalker, because why not.
10) The character has as many Rings of Spell Battle as the highest number he can imagine in a single magical item with multiple effects stacked on with a wish.

He casts Holy Word, and Blasphemy and Word of Law and Word of Chaos at CL 99999999999999999999999999999 because he damn well can (also he has the evil, good, lawful, and chaotic subtypes, so he ignores all those spells).

Presumably he just shows up and beats your spot and listen, while beating your hide and MS, and then moves on to killing you with those spells, or his DC 999999999999999999999999 kill spells, or he traps your soul in a Supernatural Trap the Soul.

Worst case scenario, he just walks up and punches you with his +9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99 attack for 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 9999999999 damage.

Maybe you have the ability to be immune to all that, but then again, he's also immune to everything you have. Most likely, the combination of Mindblank + the world not being the size of a thimble, means that the two characters never ever run into each other and all move on with our lives.

But the point should be obvious, that if you allow boosting to NI numbers with non infinite loops like Taint DCs or Taint Extra Spells, or Drakehelm+Dragonpact+Retraining, then the winner is the person who thinks of the higher number. And that's really not a challenge that I find particularly impressive to be the winner of.

[Zanos]

Drakehelm+Dragonpact+Retraining.
I might as well get something other than popcorn and fudge out of this thread, so could someone kindly expand on this trick for me?

[OldTrees1]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm

Attacks
Some spell descriptions refer to attacking. All offensive combat actions, even those that don’t damage opponents are considered attacks. Attempts to turn or rebuke undead count as attacks. All spells that opponents resist with saving throws, that deal damage, or that otherwise harm or hamper subjects are attacks. Spells that summon monsters or other allies are not attacks because the spells themselves don’t harm anyone.


(Pathfinder has the same language)

Thank you.


Does this exempt me from digging through my 150+ books?

Yes, although I still appreciate your willingness.

[ragevillain]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm

Attacks
Some spell descriptions refer to attacking. All offensive combat actions, even those that don’t damage opponents are considered attacks. Attempts to turn or rebuke undead count as attacks. All spells that opponents resist with saving throws, that deal damage, or that otherwise harm or hamper subjects are attacks. Spells that summon monsters or other allies are not attacks because the spells themselves don’t harm anyone.


(Pathfinder has the same language)


Very good this definition , ready, now we have a starting point .
So
Greater Arcane Fusion is not considered an attack, target: Personal

[ragevillain]

You know, I believe Dungeons and Dragons never included a definition for hamper.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/-DLFBDAds7I/hqdefault.jpg
LOL:smallbiggrin:

[VisitingDaGulag]

@Zanos Retraining is a 'free', sketchily used method to make any choice from your character build over again. So you just 'forget' an old spell granted by the drake helm and in its place learn a new one. People using even more abusive interpretations will say that the retrained spell that the drake helm gave doesn't go away when the helm is removed. Now where it again for that spell again, plus the one you retrained. Rinse and repeat.

I have no problem with real 'countering x' builds. "The terminator" helped the community understand pun-pun.

draws an arbitrary line and says "here is 'real' D&D and everything stronger is cheese."

the line usually ends up gerrymandering resources in such a way that all builds not using the exact cheese the OP uses can be declared 'not real D&D'You are conflating two things. One is the canon source list for D&D: core, SRD, WotC web, WotC books, WotC adventures, Campaign-specific (faerun, eberron, dragonlance, parts of OA), Magazines (Dungeon, Dragon, WotC's polyhedron), and a few outliers that maintained their WotC-granted license throughout 3e's lifetime like Diablo II Diablerie.

The other is the line of TO. While the above is google-able, this one is a centered set. I still don't get why people have difficulty with this. Maybe its just a lack of intuition by a seemingly large number of players. It is characterized by easy builds (only 1 or two ingredients) that make for huge levels of power higher than people other than Tippy (ice assassins, really?) have ever played at. NI loops are just one feature of it. Other features include bringing the sciences into D&D, getting abilities without any cost, or choosing the most abusive interpretations of abilities in order to get extremely large amounts of power out of them (rather than for the rule of cool, or to help impose balance). It's not hard to understand unless you're being obtuse or pedantic.



@OP: Not speaking English fluently is fine. Not citing the hundreds and hundreds of diverse character options you are pulling for is not. I mean, sure, I know that Undead Battery is from AoM. But the feat is a sidebar and expecting your readers to find those kind of things themselves is not reasonable. Don't get me wrong. I downloaded the meta-compendium over at minmax, so I have all the indexes and I would look up whatever I don't remember off the top of my head if I felt the build had any value. But you're using BOB, Fusioned, Ice Assassins (but no Aleaxes?) why not just use more broken 9th level spells like Travel through Time? At least The Terminator I mentioned above had class.

[Beheld]

I might as well get something other than popcorn and fudge out of this thread, so could someone kindly expand on this trick for me?

I'm actually just referring to his own claimed method to have a Sorcerer that spontaneously casts from all spells ever printed.

Basically, the Drakehelm allows a Sorcerer to know an additional spell, the Dragonpacts allow you to give up spells you know in exchange for knowing other spells. He's powering Dragonpacts with Drakehelms to lose nothing and gain new spells, and then "retraining" the Dragonpacts away so that he never Dragonpacted (after taking off the Drakehelm).

Just like every other part of his build that hasn't been common knowledge for eight years, it's dependent on several absurd rules readings at once.

Which is honestly, really pathetic, because I can do the same thing with a Sorcerer in a completely rules legal way "Shun the Dark Chaos an Otughy Holed Iron Will for Extra Spell Known as many times as you want."

[JNAProductions]

I'm actually just referring to his own claimed method to have a Sorcerer that spontaneously casts from all spells ever printed.

Basically, the Drakehelm allows a Sorcerer to know an additional spell, the Dragonpacts allow you to give up spells you know in exchange for knowing other spells. He's powering Dragonpacts with Drakehelms to lose nothing and gain new spells, and then "retraining" the Dragonpacts away so that he never Dragonpacted (after taking off the Drakehelm).

Just like every other part of his build that hasn't been common knowledge for eight years, it's dependent on several absurd rules readings at once.

Which is honestly, really pathetic, because I can do the same thing with a Sorcerer in a completely rules legal way "Shun the Dark Chaos an Otughy Holed Iron Will for Extra Spell Known as many times as you want."

Wouldn't that cause you to lose the spells gained from Dragonpact? I mean, you don't keep the benefits of a feat after retraining it.

[ragevillain]

Which is honestly, really pathetic, because I can do the same thing with a Sorcerer in a completely rules legal way "Shun the Dark Chaos an Otughy Holed Iron Will for Extra Spell Known as many times as you want."
No, because infinite loop is not followed . :smallbiggrin:
My friend, if you do not agree with any rule , tell me . I have considered three different rules for me, I see no problem :smallconfused:

[JNAProductions]

No, because infinite loop is not followed . :smallbiggrin:
My friend, if you do not agree with any rule , tell me . I have considered three different rules for me, I see no problem :smallconfused:

How is that an infinite loop? At all? I mean, you're using gorram Taint! That's way closer to an infinite loop than Otyugh Hole Dark Chaos Shuffling!

[Beheld]

Wouldn't that cause you to lose the spells gained from Dragonpact? I mean, you don't keep the benefits of a feat after retraining it.

Right, he's claiming that when he loses the spells from the Dragonpact, he gains back the spells he lost to get them (even though their original source is now gone). Which is of course, silly, because that's an absurd reading with no basis in the rules, and also doubly silly, because all he had to do was Oytugh Hole Iron Will, and then Embrace and Shun it into Extra Spell over and over until he had all the spells he wanted.

[ryu]

No, because infinite loop is not followed . :smallbiggrin:
My friend, if you do not agree with any rule , tell me . I have considered three different rules for me, I see no problem :smallconfused:

Except that loop isn't infinite at ALL. a visit to the old iron will hole costs 3000 gp. It's not infinite. It's just really cheap. Infinite would be if started using the heroics spells as fuel.

[JNAProductions]

Right, he's claiming that when he loses the spells from the Dragonpact, he gains back the spells he lost to get them (even though their original source is now gone). Which is of course, silly, because that's an absurd reading with no basis in the rules, and also doubly silly, because all he had to do was Oytugh Hole Iron Will, and then Embrace and Shun it into Extra Spell over and over until he had all the spells he wanted.

Agreed. His reading is patently absurd.


Except that loop isn't infinite at ALL. a visit to the old iron will hole costs 3000 gp. It's not infinite. It's just really cheap. Infinite would be if started using the heroics spells as fuel.

Exactly! It's easy to do, but not infinite.

[Zanos]

No, because infinite loop is not followed . :smallbiggrin:
My friend, if you do not agree with any rule , tell me . I have considered three different rules for me, I see no problem :smallconfused:
How is shuffling location feats more of an infinite loop than shuffling spells from a magic item?

[Beheld]

No, because infinite loop is not followed . :smallbiggrin:
My friend, if you do not agree with any rule , tell me . I have considered three different rules for me, I see no problem :smallconfused:

..... So your way of getting every spell is "not an infinite loop" but my (actually legal way) of doing literally the exact same thing is "an infinite loop"?

Why? I got in an Hole a finite amount of times. I had a scroll of Embrace the Dark Chaos cast a finite amount of times. I had Shun the Dark Chaos cast a finite amount of times.

It can't be infinite because I could do it an infinite number of times because:
a) I can't, there are finite number of feats.
b) I'm literally adding the same number of spells you are, if my way is infinite, then by the transitive property of identity so is yours.

[Beheld]

Except that loop isn't infinite at ALL. a visit to the old iron will hole costs 3000 gp. It's not infinite. It's just really cheap. Infinite would be if started using the heroics spells as fuel.

There are a number of problems with what you just said:

1) Even if you use Heroics, there are finite number of feats you can take.
2) The Hole is a physical location, you can just Greater Teleport in as many times as you want once you find one, you really don't have to pay for it.
3) Even if you did have to pay for it, but his character and mine use Supernatural Wish to get finite but arbitrarily large amounts of gold so the price is not a meaningful limiter in any way.

[ryu]

There are a number of problems with what you just said:

1) Even if you use Heroics, there are finite number of feats you can take.
2) The Hole is a physical location, you can just Greater Teleport in as many times as you want once you find one, you really don't have to pay for it.
3) Even if you did have to pay for it, but his character and mine use Supernatural Wish to get finite but arbitrarily large amounts of gold so the price is not a meaningful limiter in any way.

1: There are not in-fact, a finite number of feats. You can keep making up professions to skill focus FOREVER. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLkc1huIBCo

2 & 3: I was under the impression that lack of infinite resources meant we adhered to WBL?

[ragevillain]

Drake Helm x3=Extra Spell Know(Persisting Useful Spells)
Dragonpact with your dragon=I have access to Mother Cyst Spells and Dragon bloodline spells, so I change spells useless for useful spells.
Theurgy Rings to access any spell I want.



Pay attention: This is a way to have a viable and acceptable battle on an adventure.
Infinite loop has no clear definition. So I will try to define it.

Any action which has no limit established then have any multiple feats, spells, bodys:
Example: Shun the Dark Chaos an Otughy Holed (Multiples Feats) or Other sites multiple times.
Infinite Greater Arcane Fusion
Infinite Money or a limit not set.
Infinite Spells or a limit not set
Any action that may be abusable accumulating the same effect repeatedly, even if it really is not infinite:
Example: Awaken + Animal shapechange = Magical Beast
New Animal shapechange + New Awake

Craft contingency spell is not an infinite loop, it has a set limit. Max your HIT DICE.

Detail, this build is able to use all these tricks. But it will be only a TO build.

[Beheld]

Again, I fail to understand how your Sorcerer having 5000000 spells known is totally not a problem and definitely not an infinite loop, but some other Sorcerer having 5000000 spells known is a huge problem because it's an infinite loop.

[ragevillain]

Again, I fail to understand how your Sorcerer having 5000000 spells known is totally not a problem and definitely not an infinite loop, but some other Sorcerer having 5000000 spells known is a huge problem because it's an infinite loop.
I set a cost limit of 720k gold (lvl 20 character).
This character has almost no cost and the effect is not repeated. I am clearly getting in Practical Optimization

[Beheld]

I set a cost limit of 720k gold (lvl 20 character).
This character has almost no cost and the effect is not repeated.

Your spell list says otherwise.

[One Step Two]

Okay, here's the deal, I can state how this "Master of Shadow" is defeated without any loops or anything. But if I do, you don't get to go back and edit him to counter me because of your general oversights.

[ragevillain]

Okay, here's the deal, I can state how this "Master of Shadow" is defeated without any loops or anything. But if I do, you don't get to go back and edit him to counter me because of your general oversights.

I'm curious. :smallconfused:

[One Step Two]

I'm curious. :smallconfused:

Alright, so I'm just going to pick the Triple Cheeseburger With Onions (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16939250&postcount=23)

With a wide and expansive spell list, and a few good contingencies, I assume you'd study me while hidden while I do research in my wizards tower before attacking?

[ragevillain]

I really do not see any build that advantage.

But it is interesting. :smallbiggrin:

[Blackhawk748]

is it lord draco? I bet its lord draco

(I feel like 17 minutes has to be a new record for identifying a lorddrako post, y'all, I should be getting some kind of award for this shizznit.)

I agree, you deserve a medal



http://efdreams.com/data_images/dreams/medal/medal-09.jpg

[One Step Two]

I really do not see any build that advantage.

But it is interesting. :smallbiggrin:

Ah, but that's where the fun lays! You See, here's the thing, you keep thinking big, without ever wondering about the smaller problems. See, I could list contingencies, or damage combos, but that doesn't matter. Even if I get a time stop off before I am attacked, or after waking up in my clone in a super secret hidden demi-plane after I was assaulted. My response is exactly the same.

I use the Hypercognition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hypercognition.htm) psionic power, to learn about my attacker. It is not a divination, and I can cast it repeatedly until I have enough details to use the Teleport Through Time (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b) spell, to travel back to when you're an infant, and kill you with a Thinaun dagger, which I then seal in a block of Hardened Obdurium and bury in a dead magic zone.

[Blackhawk748]

Ah, but that's where the fun lays! You See, here's the thing, you keep thinking big, without ever wondering about the smaller problems. See, I could list contingencies, or damage combos, but that doesn't matter. Even if I get a time stop off before I am attacked, or after waking up in my clone in a super secret hidden demi-plane after I was assaulted. My response is exactly the same.

I use the Hypercognition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hypercognition.htm) psionic power, to learn about my attacker. It is not a divination, and I can cast it repeatedly until I have enough details to use the Teleport Through Time (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b) spell, to travel back to when you're an infant, and kill you with a Thinaun dagger, which I then seal in a block of Hardened Obdurium and bury in a dead magic zone.

Oh that is just delicious.

[Buufreak]

Alright, so I'm just going to pick the Triple Cheeseburger With Onions (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16939250&postcount=23)

With a wide and expansive spell list, and a few good contingencies, I assume you'd study me while hidden while I do research in my wizards tower before attacking?

Can I get 2 and some fries to go? This thread finally got the best of my hunger...

[Anthrowhale]

I'm flattered that ExFighter is attacked, but it looks like Sanctum and Arcane Fusion are misinterpreted (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21029504&postcount=18).

It looks the build has no ability to attack within a dead magic plane.

[One Step Two]

Oh that is just delicious.

Thanks!


Can I get 2 and some fries to go? This thread finally got the best of my hunger...

It's what happens when I make these posts at lunchtime. mmm... curly fries.

[ragevillain]

Ah, but that's where the fun lays! You See, here's the thing, you keep thinking big, without ever wondering about the smaller problems. See, I could list contingencies, or damage combos, but that doesn't matter. Even if I get a time stop off before I am attacked, or after waking up in my clone in a super secret hidden demi-plane after I was assaulted. My response is exactly the same.

I use the Hypercognition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hypercognition.htm) psionic power, to learn about my attacker. It is not a divination, and I can cast it repeatedly until I have enough details to use the Teleport Through Time (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b) spell, to travel back to when you're an infant, and kill you with a Thinaun dagger, which I then seal in a block of Hardened Obdurium and bury in a dead magic zone.
Mind Blank:
The subject is protected from all devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts. This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects. Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information about it. In the case of scrying that scans an area the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works but the creature simply isn’t detected. Scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all.


The character may not know is that your attacker. Highest Disguise ,hide and Bluff check and Blacklight (You can not see) .
Detail , I do not need to be near you.
Mental Pinnacle + Metafaculty : I can find you and know everything about you at any distance.
Another thing, you can not persist . So it is easily surprised.
Another detail , the Master of Shadow rarely attacks . He commands his Ice Assassins to do the job, Including creating an Ice Assassin yourself.

TowerShield And Mystic Shield can bloquer all their attacks.

[JNAProductions]

Mind Blank:
The subject is protected from all devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts. This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects. Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information about it. In the case of scrying that scans an area the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works but the creature simply isn’t detected. Scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all.


The character may not know is that your attacker. Highest Disguise ,hide and Bluff check and Blacklight (You can not see) .
Detail , I do not need to be near you.
Mental Pinnacle + Metafaculty : I can find you and know everything about you at any distance.
Another thing , you can not persist . So it is easily surprised.

TowerShield And Mystic Shield can bloquer all their attacks.

Hypercognition isn't Divination in any way, shape, or form. Mind Blank doesn't work against it.

[ragevillain]

Yes I know. But its a effect trying information gathering.
Divination or effect

[JNAProductions]

Yes I know. But its a effect is trying information gathering.
Divination or effect

Divination spells or effects. Not any effect-Mind Blank doesn't stop people from asking someone what your name is, for instance.

The funny thing is, you misquoted it there, despite quoting it properly up above.

[LTwerewolf]

Yes I know. But its a effect trying information gathering.
Divination or effect

It does not have the mind-affecting tag, and is therefore not a mind-affecting effect. Mind blank does not apply. You're welcome to houserule otherwise if you feel it's an error for it not to have that tag, however it will simply be a house rule and you'll have to admit your build fails against this.

[One Step Two]

Mind Blank:
The subject is protected from all devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts. This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects. Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information about it. In the case of scrying that scans an area the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works but the creature simply isn’t detected. Scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all.

Here's the fun part about Hypercognition. I'm not targeting you. I'm targeting myself. So mindblank wont stop it.



The character may not know is that your attacker. Highest Disguise ,hide and Bluff check and Blacklight (You can not see) .
Detail , I do not need to be near you.
Mental Pinnacle + Metafaculty : I can find you and know everything about you at any distance.
Another thing, you can not persist . So it is easily surprised.
Another detail , the Master of Shadow rarely attacks . He commands his Ice Assassins to do the job, Including creating an Ice Assassin yourself.

TowerShield And Mystic Shield can bloquer all their attacks.

And even if you use an Ice Assassin to attack me, I don't care. I can still use Hypercognition to learn about you from the smallest scrap of information available, even if it is only the Ice assassin itself.

So, thanks for playing, the Master of Shadow no-longer exists.

Edit: Also, how are you casting Metafaculty with Mental Pinnacle? Mental pinnacle only lets you cast Mind Thrust, Ego Whip, Psionic Blast, Id Insinuation, and Psychic Crush.

[ryu]

It does not have the mind-affecting tag, and is therefore not a mind-affecting effect. Mind blank does not apply. You're welcome to houserule otherwise if you feel it's an error for it not to have that tag, however it will simply be a house rule and you'll have to admit your build fails against this.

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why you don't trust information protection to a single effect. I have a minimum effort several steps long that involves cycling vecna blooded on and off daily, having completely spontaneous casting from pretty much every worthwhile spell in the game, hidden contingency notes, and mindrape my own character so that the vast majority of the time THEY don't even know what they're capable of. You can't trust yourself with your personal information. That guy is an obvious security risk.

[ragevillain]

Mind Blank:
The subject is protected from all devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts. This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects. Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information about it. In the case of scrying that scans an area the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works but the creature simply isn’t detected. Scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all.

This course you can use any effect that may not gathering information . Detail, being or not being Target effect does not change anything.

His attack is ineffective , has no effect against the master of shadow , you can not even hit him .
Of course , I continue indefinitely winning the initiative and actions.
really, it was a good tactic , but it does not work.
Ex Vecna-Blooded,
It is Impossible to know anything about the Master of Shadow .

[One Step Two]

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why you don't trust information protection to a single effect. I have a minimum effort several steps long that involves cycling vecna blooded on and off daily, having completely spontaneous casting from pretty much every worthwhile spell in the game, hidden contingency notes, and mindrape my own character so that the vast majority of the time THEY don't even know what they're capable of. You can't trust yourself with your personal information. That guy is an obvious security risk.

I know, right?! With how paranoid I am, how can I possibly trust me with any information about myself?!

[ragevillain]

I know, right?! With how paranoid I am, how can I possibly trust me with any information about myself?!

Metafaculty. :smallbiggrin:
High Spot Check.

[JNAProductions]

Mind Blank:
The subject is protected from all devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts. This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects. Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information about it. In the case of scrying that scans an area the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works but the creature simply isn’t detected. Scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all.

This course you can use any effect that may not gathering information . Detail, being or not being Target effect does not change anything.

His attack is ineffective , has no effect against the master of shadow , you can not even hit him .
Of course , I continue indefinitely winning the initiative and actions.
really, it was a good tactic , but it does not work.
Ex Vecna-Blooded,
It is Impossible to know anything about the Master of Shadow .

See, this is where you're wrong. You're reading the section I bolded as divination spells being separate from effects. But it's not-divination modifies spells or effects. Hypercognition is not a divination effect-and Mind Blank does not protect against people figuring things out about you. Hypercognition is basically pure logic, taken to a ridiculous extreme, and Mind Blank does not affect logical deduction.

[ragevillain]

It does not say Divination effects .
It says divination OR effects.

Regardless, his attack is completely ineffective.
The Master of Shadow will gain the initiative , will continue unable to detect it , can not hit him(High AC) .
Anyway , Mystic Shield Block and Tower Shield Block completely their attacks.

[One Step Two]

Mind Blank:
The subject is protected from all devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts. This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects. Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information about it. In the case of scrying that scans an area the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works but the creature simply isn’t detected. Scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all.

This course you can use any effect that may not gathering information . Detail, being or not being Target effect does not change anything.

His attack is ineffective , has no effect against the master of shadow , you can not even hit him .
Of course , I continue indefinitely winning the initiative and actions.
really, it was a good tactic , but it does not work.
Ex Vecna-Blooded,
It is Impossible to know anything about the Master of Shadow .

That's dandy, but I am still not targeting you with the power, or it's effects. You're certainly the subject of inquiry, but I am still the target of the power.

[LTwerewolf]

This course you can use any effect that may not gathering information . Detail, being or not being Target effect does not change anything.



Again, not how it works. Hypercognition is not affecting this shadow mackerel in any way.


This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects.

It protects against mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information from divination spells or effects. I think you may be misreading here. The word "spells" and the word "effects" are both tied to the words "mind-affecting" and "divination." Not being a native speaker, it's easy to make that mistake. However, the effects it is protecting from are mind-affecting effects and divination effects, of which hypercognition is neither.

[JNAProductions]

It does not say Divination effects .
It says divination OR effects.

Divination spells or effects. Seriously, you quoted it right the first time! It does NOT say Divinations or effects!

[One Step Two]

I think the Master of Shadows is breaking down due to non-existence, guys!

[LTwerewolf]

I think the Master of Shadows is breaking down due to non-existence guys!

What mackerel of shadows?

[ragevillain]

As well as information gathering by divination spells or effects
It does not say Divination effects .
It says divination OR effects.

Regardless, his attack is completely ineffective.
The Master of Shadow will gain the initiative , will continue unable to detect him , can not hit him(High AC) .
Anyway, Mystic Shield Block and Tower Shield Block completely their attacks.


Man I really enjoyed it. Congratulations, but it will not work.

[JNAProductions]

As well as information gathering by divination spells or effects
It does not say Divination effects .
It says divination OR effects.

Regardless, his attack is completely ineffective.
The Master of Shadow will gain the initiative , will continue unable to detect him , can not hit him(High AC) .
Anyway , Mystic Shield Block and Tower Shield Block completely their attacks.

We've been over this-the Divination modifies both spells AND effects. That is the proper reading.

In addition, you'd have to be pretty cocky to say that he has those defenses as a BABY.

[One Step Two]

What mackerel of shadows?

No, I was sure it was mackerel of shallows.

[LTwerewolf]

As well as information gathering by divination spells or effects
It does not say Divination effects .
It says divination OR effects.

Regardless, his attack is completely ineffective.
The Master of Shadow will gain the initiative , will continue unable to detect it , can not hit him(High AC) .
Anyway , Mystic Shield Block and Tower Shield Block completely their attacks.

Read what I have wrote please. If english is not your first language, that may be why you're having issues with it. With the way it is written, in english, it means "divination spells" and "divination effects." Also, it doesn't matter, because if you read hypercognition, the mackerel of shadows is not being affected by anything at all. Mind blank has no ability to affect self buffs, else it could stop things like owl's wisdom because it increases spot checks. The spell simply does not work that way.

[ryu]

I know, right?! With how paranoid I am, how can I possibly trust me with any information about myself?!

I mean... He can be ice assassined. We just can't have the copy know anything relevant. Besides, we have ways of restoring information for extremely brief periods when necessary.

[ragevillain]

It is the fourth time that I will give the advantage to the enemy in interpretation. It is clear that any effect that try to have information about you will fail.
But I will accept the second interpretation.
The character still unable to detect the master of shadow, will continue losing in initiative, will remain an easy target for their attacks.
Continuing, what's your next step?

[LTwerewolf]

I mean... He can be ice assassined. We just can't have the copy know anything relevant. Besides, we have ways of restoring information for extremely brief periods when necessary.

Still need something of the person to ice assassin them. Eschew materials doesn't work here. Every character I have prices their parts at twelve googol googols times a googol to the googolth powers. A good bit too expensive for eschew materials to work on.

[JNAProductions]

It is the fourth time that I will give the advantage to the enemy in interpretation. It is clear that any effect that try to have information about you will fail.
But I will accept the second interpretation.
The character still unable to detect the master of shadow, will continue losing in initiativa, will remain an easy target for their attacks.
Continuing, what's your next step?

A plan has already been outlined. You've failed to address it-and continuing to insist we're reading it wrong isn't proving anything. I, at least, am a native speaker, and the meaning is clear to me.

[One Step Two]

It is the fourth time that I will give the advantage to the enemy in interpretation. It is clear that any effect that try to have information about you will fail.
But I will accept the second interpretation.
The character still unable to detect the master of shadow, will continue losing in initiative, will remain an easy target for their attacks.
Continuing, what's your next step?

C'mon man! It's even in my name! One Step Two! See my original post for details! Here's a link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21117573&postcount=159) for your convenience.

[ragevillain]

The only problem is that the character may not know any information about me and my past(Mind Blank too). Ex Vecna-Blooded. :smallcool:

[JNAProductions]

The only problem is that the character may not know any information about me and my past(Mind Blank too). Ex Vecna-Blooded. :smallcool:

Except that blocks Divinations... Which Hypercognition is not.

[One Step Two]

The only problem is that the character may not know any information about me and my past(Mind Blank too). Ex Vecna-Blooded. :smallcool:

Fun fact time again folks! Hypercognition even digs up Echos of knowledge from the Astral Plane. The fact that even Vecna knows about you means that Hypercognition can realize who and what you are! RAW Ladies and Gentlemen, isn't it grand?

[ragevillain]

: All knowledge of the Vecna-blooded
creature fades from the world. Its original name, its deeds
before becoming Vecna-blooded, and so forth, disappear from
memory. Only Vecna and the Vecna-blooded creature retain
this knowledge.
And Vecna Blooded wins divination immunity too.

[LTwerewolf]

The only problem is that the character may not know any information about me and my past(Mind Blank too). Ex Vecna-Blooded. :smallcool:

This is blatantly not true, however. Else sight would be blocked by mind-blank, because sight is a way to gather information. Sight is not a divination spell, nor a mind-affecting effect, and is therefore not blocked. Hypercognition functions the same. It is not a divination spell (even if you use transparency as opposed to difference), nor is it a mind-affecting effect. You have even gone so far as to clearly indicate you do not believe mind-blank affects sight, by giving the mackerel of shallows a hide check.

[ryu]

Still need something of the person to ice assassin them. Eschew materials doesn't work here. Every character I have prices their parts at twelve googol googols times a googol to the googolth powers. A good bit too expensive for eschew materials to work on.

Except the price of things has absolutely nothing to do with what any individual will pay for them. Else-wise we get into a scenario wherein the first dragon to take the epic feat ignore material components will immediately screw over literally every mage that uses them for fun and dominance.

[ragevillain]

This is blatantly not true, however. Else sight would be blocked by mind-blank, because sight is a way to gather information. Sight is not a divination spell, nor a mind-affecting effect, and is therefore not blocked. Hypercognition functions the same. It is not a divination spell (even if you use transparency as opposed to difference), nor is it a mind-affecting effect. You have even gone so far as to clearly indicate you do not believe mind-blank affects sight, by giving the mackerel of shallows a hide check.

Yes, its not mind affecting and not divination. Its a effect to information gathering and mindblank block it.
Vecna-Blooded say hellow =)

[One Step Two]

: All knowledge of the Vecna-blooded
creature fades from the world. Its original name, its deeds
before becoming Vecna-blooded, and so forth, disappear from
memory. Only Vecna and the Vecna-blooded creature retain
this knowledge.
And Vecna Blooded wins divination immunity too.

I know, Vecna Blooded is amazing like that, but Hypercognition doesn't care!

[JNAProductions]

Yes, its not mind affecting and not divination. Its a effect to information gathering and mindblank block it.
Vecna-Blooded say hellow =)

Again, by that logic, sight is blocked by that. Do you understand where we're coming from?

[ragevillain]

Only Vecna and the Vecna-blooded creature retain
this knowledge.
Sorry :smallbiggrin:

[LTwerewolf]

Except the price of things has absolutely nothing to do with what any individual will pay for them. Else-wise we get into a scenario wherein the first dragon to take the epic feat ignore material components will immediately screw over literally every mage that uses them for fun and dominance.

The epic feat does that regardless.



Only Vecna and the Vecna-blooded creature retain
this knowledge.
Sorry :smallbiggrin:

They retain the knowledge, but that does not prevent it from being figured out, even if before it was erased. Especially if you're trying to be ex-vecna-blooded, the memories of people are not continually erased. You may want to cut down on the arrogant smiley usage, since you're not actually proving your point but reinforcing how your character loses.

[meemaas]

Even being aware that this will probably be ignored, I have to ask.

First, how are you avoiding Mindsight? There is more than one build that would take that, and no matter how high your hide check, you can't fool that one.

Secondly, the clause in Body outside Body that ways the clones cannot cast spells. Even using the Dweomerkeepers supernatural spell ability is still casting a spell, and thus should be denied by the spell itself, making Body outside Body pretty much pointless.

[ryu]

The epic feat does that regardless.




They retain the knowledge, but that does not prevent it from being figured out, even if before it was erased.

No I mean that is literally the most singularly setting impactful feat that exists if we take this extreme. Spell components literally cease to function in any coherent manner for anyone who isn't epic. That's literally bigger than tippyverse level change.

[ragevillain]

No one can know about my past. All knowledge about me disappear from the world.
Together with Blank Mind, it blocks any effect trying information gathering.


Your Teleport fail.

[LTwerewolf]

No one can know about my past. All knowledge about me disappear from the world.
Together with Blank Mind, it blocks any effect trying information gathering.


Your Teleport fail.

Again, multiple people have told you it's not how this works. You're welcome to house rule this and be happy in believing you're right, and we can all move on.



No I mean that is literally the most singularly setting impactful feat that exists if we take this extreme. Spell components literally cease to function in any coherent manner for anyone who isn't epic. That's literally bigger than tippyverse level change.

Most spell components are given a value. My character's fingernails, however, are not given a value, and thus as the only person with the authority to sell them, sets the price themselves.

[ragevillain]

Even being aware that this will probably be ignored, I have to ask.

First, how are you avoiding Mindsight? There is more than one build that would take that, and no matter how high your hide check, you can't fool that one.

Secondly, the clause in Body outside Body that ways the clones cannot cast spells. Even using the Dweomerkeepers supernatural spell ability is still casting a spell, and thus should be denied by the spell itself, making Body outside Body pretty much pointless.

Supernatural Spell(Su):
Draconic Spell-like

[One Step Two]

Only Vecna and the Vecna-blooded creature retain
this knowledge.
Sorry :smallbiggrin:

Well, you know what I feel generous, so I am going to give you even more steps, since you're so insistent.

All knowledge of the Vecna-blooded
creature fades from the world. Its original name, its deeds
before becoming Vecna-blooded, and so forth, disappear from
memory. Only Vecna and the Vecna-blooded creature retain
this knowledge.

All of this, right here? See even if I can't find information about you. I can ask this question of Hypercognition, "Who gave birth to my attacker?" And Hypercognition will still give me their mother's name. They aren't protected by the same effects. I then travel back in time, and do the same thing to her before she ever gives birth.

[JNAProductions]

No one can know about my past. All knowledge about me disappear from the world.
Together with Blank Mind, it blocks any effect trying information gathering.

Your Teleport fail.

It doesn't block Hypercognition. The only way to block that is to not exist.

[ryu]

No one can know about my past. All knowledge about me disappear from the world.
Together with Blank Mind, it blocks any effect trying information gathering.


Your Teleport fail.

It didn't sway anyone the first twenty times you said it. It won't the twenty-first either. I recommend finding a different angle of approach before the forum gets bored and conversation just ends.

Edit:
You can't force a price increase on your fingernails anymore than you can diamonds. Prices are determined by the cheapest method of producing or obtaining something. Not the most expensive. You can't sell your fingernails for anything because anyone who wants them already has them.

[JNAProductions]

It didn't sway anyone the first twenty times you said it. It won't the twenty-first either. I recommend finding a different angle of approach before the forum gets bored and conversation just ends.

On the one hand, I agree with you wholesale-RageVillain, I please try to find something that ACTUALLY HELPS YOUR CASE, rather than insisting that we (including at least one native speaker) are reading the English totally wrong and that you are correct.

On the other hand, this could easily go to 10 pages just on this alone. Let's be real here-by the time one person steps down from arguing, two more will step up.

[One Step Two]

On the one hand, I agree with you wholesale-RageVillain, I please try to find something that ACTUALLY HELPS YOUR CASE, rather than insisting that we (including at least one native speaker) are reading the English totally wrong and that you are correct.

On the other hand, this could easily go to 10 pages just on this alone. Let's be real here-by the time one person steps down from arguing, two more will step up.

Who is arguing? There's only winners in this thread. Us with the rules. and RageVillain with the voices inside his head.

[LTwerewolf]

On the one hand, I agree with you wholesale-RageVillain, I please try to find something that ACTUALLY HELPS YOUR CASE, rather than insisting that we (including at least one native speaker) are reading the English totally wrong and that you are correct.

On the other hand, this could easily go to 10 pages just on this alone. Let's be real here-by the time one person steps down from arguing, two more will step up.

You've admitted to being a native speaker, and not only am I a native speaker, but also have a degree in the subject. So at least two.

[ryu]

On the one hand, I agree with you wholesale-RageVillain, I please try to find something that ACTUALLY HELPS YOUR CASE, rather than insisting that we (including at least one native speaker) are reading the English totally wrong and that you are correct.

On the other hand, this could easily go to 10 pages just on this alone. Let's be real here-by the time one person steps down from arguing, two more will step up.

I dunno. I've already started a much more dynamic conversation about the economic value of fingernails and how this relates to 9th level spells, and the information protection safeguards.

[ragevillain]

Vecna-Blooded
All knowledge of the Vecna-blooded
creature fades from the world. Its original name, its deeds
before becoming Vecna-blooded, and so forth, disappear from
memory. Only Vecna and the Vecna-blooded creature retain
this knowledge.
Mind Blank
The subject is protected from all devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts. This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects. Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information about it. In the case of scrying that scans an area the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works but the creature simply isn’t detected. Scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all.


End Game.


End game. If the enemie still insist that this works, it is because all the other tactics failed.

[JNAProductions]

You've admitted to being a native speaker, and not only am I a native speaker, but also have a degree in the subject. So at least two.

Yeah, I'd tend to listen to the guy with the degree over someone who doesn't appear to be a native speaker. RageVillain, are you a native English speaker, or neh?


I dunno. I've already started a much more dynamic conversation about the economic value of fingernails and how this relates to 9th level spells, and the information protection safeguards.

True that. Some good is coming of this!

[One Step Two]

Vecna-Blooded
All knowledge of the Vecna-blooded
creature fades from the world. Its original name, its deeds
before becoming Vecna-blooded, and so forth, disappear from
memory. Only Vecna and the Vecna-blooded creature retain
this knowledge.
Mind Blank
The subject is protected from all devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts. This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects. Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information about it. In the case of scrying that scans an area the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works but the creature simply isn’t detected. Scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all.


End Game.


End game. If the enemie still insist that this works, it is because all the other tactics failed.

Yeah, but I'm not looking for information relating to you specifically anymore. I can't anyway, since I used Time travel, and you no-longer exist.

You're very right, this is the End Game. So thanks for playing, better luck next time!

[LTwerewolf]

Yeah, but I'm not looking for information relating to you specifically anymore. I can't anyway, since I used Time travel, and you no-longer exist.

You're very right, this is the End Game. So thanks for playing, better luck next time!

Since we're done with that, I expect you to chime in on our fingernail conversation. It's actually rather thought provoking.

[ryu]

Since we're done with that, I expect you to chime in on our fingernail conversation. It's actually rather thought provoking.

Speaking of which this was originally edited into last page:

Edit:
You can't force a price increase on your fingernails anymore than you can diamonds. Prices are determined by the cheapest method of producing or obtaining something. Not the most expensive. You can't sell your fingernails for anything because anyone who wants them already has them.

[ragevillain]

Ok, Supernatural Wish: Psionic, Mink Blank.
If the guys want me to accept any interpretation, go to third defense.

:smallbiggrin:

[One Step Two]

Since we're done with that, I expect you to chime in on our fingernail conversation. It's actually rather thought provoking.

Well, the first thing I would ask, that as a 9th level caster, have we polymorphed/true mind switched ourselves permanetly?

We have evidence in the Book of Exalted deeds, that things like Angel feathers and other body parts have a distinctly costly component. If we're no longer human, clearly we're worth more the Eschew Materials can get around.

[JNAProductions]

Ok, Supernatural Wish: Psionic, Mink Blank.

:smallbiggrin:

We already assumed magic/psionic transparency. It's not that Hypercognition is psionic-it's that it's not divination.

[LTwerewolf]

Speaking of which this was originally edited into last page:

Edit:
You can't force a price increase on your fingernails anymore than you can diamonds. Prices are determined by the cheapest method of producing or obtaining something. Not the most expensive. You can't sell your fingernails for anything because anyone who wants them already has them.

Ah I didn't see this! But that's the thing. It's worth 0 copper until someone tries to use ice assassin or the like. Then it becomes demanded, and therefore the price matters. It's Schrodinger's fingernails. They may not be willing to pay it, but it becomes a demanded item with a set price. There are many items in d&d that aren't worth the price, and no one would want them because there are other things that are considered better, but the price remains the price even if no one buys them.


Well, the first thing I would ask, that as a 9th level caster, have we polymorphed/true mind switched ourselves permanetly?

We have evidence in the Book of Exalted deeds, that things like Angel feathers and other body parts have a distinctly costly component. If we're no longer human, clearly we're worth more the Eschew Materials can get around.

As I mentioned just a moment ago, the key is for the item to be both worthless and priceless at the same time, so I feel that transforming into something like an angel would actually hurt the survivability because it makes it affordable.

[One Step Two]

Ok, Supernatural Wish: Psionic, Mink Blank.

:smallbiggrin:

I assume you mean Psionic Mind Blank (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindBlankPsionic.htm)? That's awesome, because it specifically makes you able to be found with Metafaculty!

Thanks for making Mackerel of Shallows even easier to find :smallwink:

Also, I'm still not targeting you with Hypercognition, I am the target. Thanks again for playing!

[Buufreak]

It didn't sway anyone the first twenty times you said it. It won't the twenty-first either. I recommend finding a different angle of approach before the forum gets bored and conversation just ends.

Edit:
You can't force a price increase on your fingernails anymore than you can diamonds. Prices are determined by the cheapest method of producing or obtaining something. Not the most expensive. You can't sell your fingernails for anything because anyone who wants them already has them.


http://i.imgur.com/2MQY1GB.jpg


Crap. I forget how to HTML. Trying to fix.

[ryu]

Well, the first thing I would ask, that as a 9th level caster, have we polymorphed/true mind switched ourselves permanetly?

We have evidence in the Book of Exalted deeds, that things like Angel feathers and other body parts have a distinctly costly component. If we're no longer human, clearly we're worth more the Eschew Materials can get around.

Now see THAT is actually an interesting counter-tactic that might hold some weight depending on what you turned into. Unless it was particularly hilarious we still have a problem though.

Supernatural wish for a scroll of ice assassin keyed to produce a copy of you.

[ragevillain]

I assume you mean Psionic Mind Blank (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindBlankPsionic.htm)? That's awesome, because it specifically makes you able to be found with Metafaculty!

Thanks for making Mackerel of Shallows even easier to find :smallwink:

Also, I'm still not targeting you with Hypercognition, I am the target. Thanks again for playing!
Sorry, no time to survive. :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:
Supernatural Ice Assassin + Mindrape = know everything about you.
Time to die.

[JNAProductions]

Sorry, no time to survive. :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

...

You know, at least before you had an argument. You had substance, even if it wasn't correct. But this is just nothing.

[LTwerewolf]

Now see THAT is actually an interesting counter-tactic that might hold some weight depending on what you turned into. Unless it was particularly hilarious we still have a problem though.

Supernatural wish for a scroll of ice assassin keyed to produce a copy of you.

The supernatural scroll still works even with Schrodinger's fingernail, which goes back to "don't count on one line of defense" I suppose. Well done. That brings in the question which wish would take precedence? The first wish of "I wish people can never summon any item keyed to me" or the second wish of "I wish for an item keyed to them."

[Beheld]

I'm not sure why anyone ever cares about whether or not you can price your fingernails. Spell Like Abilities exist, why wouldn't you just get Ice Assassin as an SLA any of the many ways you could do that?

[ragevillain]

...

You know, at least before you had an argument. You had substance, even if it wasn't correct. But this is just nothing.
The Master of Shadow needs only one round to analyze and kill this character.

[ryu]

...

You know, at least before you had an argument. You had substance, even if it wasn't correct. But this is just nothing.

And besides even if I win my argument and ice assassins are a thing that exists I already made a method to counter that exact tactic.

[JNAProductions]

The Master of Shadow needs only one round to analyze and kill this character.

Care to elaborate on how that is accomplished?

[One Step Two]

Now see THAT is actually an interesting counter-tactic that might hold some weight depending on what you turned into. Unless it was particularly hilarious we still have a problem though.

Supernatural wish for a scroll of ice assassin keyed to produce a copy of you.

Well, the Su Wish for that scroll is always going to be a problem. Unless you can make a global spanning contingency to prevent anyone casting Su Wishes involving you, you can hardly stop it. But the real question becomes, how do they know who you are first?

[LTwerewolf]

Well, the Su Wish for that scroll is always going to be a problem. Unless you can make a global spanning contingency to prevent anyone casting Su Wishes involving you, you can hardly stop it. But the real question becomes, how do they know who you are first?

If someone were to become ex-vecnablooded and then used an astral projection, who then permanently polymorphed themselves into something else, and then mindraped themselves to forget anything about what they just did it could get around hypercognition if the question asked is "who gave birth to my attacker" because strictly speaking, the projection was not birthed, has no memories of who it could be, and has no looks of the original.

[One Step Two]

Care to elaborate on how that is accomplished?

The really funny part? I already accepted the fact that my character may die. The problem ragevillian keeps forgetting is the act of killing me isn't stopping me. He has started a war. He's lucky that my character decides to simply snuff out the Mackerel of Shallows out of existence instead of starting a Pogrom upon him and his entire family line.

[ragevillain]

Care to elaborate on how that is accomplished?
Analyse Dweomer(I know every contingency spell on you) + Daley Twin Greater Arcane Fusion
+Twin Greater Arcane Fusion
Slot 7: Sanctum Greater Celerity
Slor 4: Twin Celerity

6 Standard Action + 2 move speed:

Its only a Ice Assassin.



The really funny part? I already accepted the fact that my character may die. The problem ragevillian keeps forgetting is the act of killing me isn't stopping me. He has started a war. He's lucky that my character decides to simply snuff out the Mackerel of Shallows out of existence instead of starting a Pogrom upon him and his entire family line.

Man, you really had a great tactic. Congratulations, I thought that no one would challenge me.
But I honestly think Vecna-blooded and mind blank was enough.

[ryu]

Well, the Su Wish for that scroll is always going to be a problem. Unless you can make a global spanning contingency to prevent anyone casting Su Wishes involving you, you can hardly stop it. But the real question becomes, how do they know who you are first?

Ah but see I already had a plan for this.

To copy paste myself:

This plan will not result in your enemies getting a corpse, but it will result in them getting a useless shell as compared to literally any other full caster.

Step 1: Have vecna-blooded template, use any of a number of methods to lose and regain it on a daily basis. This is important because whenever the template is gained all knowledge of you is wiped from history and the memory of everyone that isn't you. This should make it effectively impossible to get ice assassin knowledge from anyone but you, and similarly immune to divination as a bonus.

Step 2: Have both spontaneous divination and versatile spellcaster. Never have to prepare spells again.

Step 3: Either go eidetic to never need a spellbook or protect the best one you can make to the fullest extent of your capabilities. I would suggest making your spellbook a sentient, vecna blooded, animated magic item and store it shrunken in your bloodstream when not in use. Make it an aleax if you can. Learn all wizard spells and as many from other classes as you can.

Step 4: Use craft contingent spell and ice assassin together with your crafting XP farm method of choice to craft the most deadly arsenal of spells you can. It will also be key to the final step.

Step 5: Mind rape self into forgetting all knowledge of spells, contingent spells, and plans beyond general directives. Keep contingent miracles to restore the knowledge in the event of a fight, or other obstacle to your longterm goals.

The result? No one knows about you to oppose you. Even if they do you can't be divinationed at all. Even if they find a way to read your prepared spells list it's useless because you don't have one. They can't read your spellbook because it either doesn't exist or is as untouchable as a thing can be. You can do virtually everything spontaneously and anything commonly good or worthwhile hundreds of thousands of times per turn.

Most importantly? An ice assassin of you knows NOTHING. It doesn't know any spells. It has no spellbook. It doesn't have your contingencies. It knows absolutely nothing about you save the most general of knowledge about your goals. All told literally any other high level mage in existence is now a more productive target for ice assassin unless someone actually manages the corpse trick.

End plan.

You see world? I'm brilliant. I'm also mad as a hatter.

[One Step Two]

Analyse Dweomer(I know every contingency spell on you) + Daley Twin Greater Arcane Fusion
+Twin Greater Arcane Fusion
Slot 7: Sanctum Greater Celerity
Slor 4: Twin Celerity

6 Standard Action + 2 move speed:

Its only a Ice Assassin.

And how does the Mackerel of Shallows do this as a 6 month old child?

[One Step Two]

Ah but see I already had a plan for this.

To copy paste myself:

This plan will not result in your enemies getting a corpse, but it will result in them getting a useless shell as compared to literally any other full caster.

Step 1: Have vecna-blooded template, use any of a number of methods to lose and regain it on a daily basis. This is important because whenever the template is gained all knowledge of you is wiped from history and the memory of everyone that isn't you. This should make it effectively impossible to get ice assassin knowledge from anyone but you, and similarly immune to divination as a bonus.

Step 2: Have both spontaneous divination and versatile spellcaster. Never have to prepare spells again.

Step 3: Either go eidetic to never need a spellbook or protect the best one you can make to the fullest extent of your capabilities. I would suggest making your spellbook a sentient, vecna blooded, animated magic item and store it shrunken in your bloodstream when not in use. Make it an aleax if you can. Learn all wizard spells and as many from other classes as you can.

Step 4: Use craft contingent spell and ice assassin together with your crafting XP farm method of choice to craft the most deadly arsenal of spells you can. It will also be key to the final step.

Step 5: Mind rape self into forgetting all knowledge of spells, contingent spells, and plans beyond general directives. Keep contingent miracles to restore the knowledge in the event of a fight, or other obstacle to your longterm goals.

The result? No one knows about you to oppose you. Even if they do you can't be divinationed at all. Even if they find a way to read your prepared spells list it's useless because you don't have one. They can't read your spellbook because it either doesn't exist or is as untouchable as a thing can be. You can do virtually everything spontaneously and anything commonly good or worthwhile hundreds of thousands of times per turn.

Most importantly? An ice assassin of you knows NOTHING. It doesn't know any spells. It has no spellbook. It doesn't have your contingencies. It knows absolutely nothing about you save the most general of knowledge about your goals. All told literally any other high level mage in existence is now a more productive target for ice assassin unless someone actually manages the corpse trick.

End plan.

You see world? I'm brilliant. I'm also mad as a hatter.

Herein lays your single fault. You still have goals. A modus operendai is the undoing of almost all suspects, because there's patterns in their actions leading to a set end. Hypercognition can still realize these patterns, and with enough uses, unravel enough information to finally pin you down.

[Beheld]

Man, you really had a great tactic. Congratulations, I thought that no one would challenge me.
But I honestly think Vecna-blooded and mind blank was enough.

Funny you should say that, because I see no way at all your character can ever find or hurt or kill any character with Mindblank (or Vecna Blooded). So while you have managed to create the great character of sitting in a bush, I really have to wonder what you thought you could do to all the other bush sitting characters (of which all theoretical op characters are capable of being).

[ryu]

Herein lays your single fault. You still have goals. A modus operendai is the undoing of almost all suspects, because there's patterns in their actions leading to a set end. Hypercognition can still realize these patterns, and with enough uses, unravel enough information to finally pin you down.

Ah but then we have the question of how long this takes you. We can cycle vecna blooded on a round-by-round basis if necessary.

[One Step Two]

Analyse Dweomer(I know every contingency spell on you) + Daley Twin Greater Arcane Fusion
+Twin Greater Arcane Fusion
Slot 7: Sanctum Greater Celerity
Slor 4: Twin Celerity

6 Standard Action + 2 move speed:

Its only a Ice Assassin.




Man, you really had a great tactic. Congratulations, I thought that no one would challenge me.
But I honestly think Vecna-blooded and mind blank was enough.


Woah ho, hold on here kids, did I just get him to admit defeat? I think I did! Internet Cookies and Burgers for all!

[ragevillain]

Man, you will not necessarily die. Imprisonment , Greater Betow Curse . I can cast Supernatural Trap the Soul.
And if you die , your soul will be trapped . Effect of Death Giant.(MM3)


Woah ho, hold on here kids, did I just get him to admit defeat? I think I did! Internet Cookies and Burgers for all!
This character can not win the Master of Shadow in direct combat . It is inefficient.

[ryu]

Woah ho, hold on here kids, did I just get him to admit defeat? I think I did! Internet Cookies and Burgers for all!

Sadly I'm pretty sure that only looks like he was admitting defeat due to poor communication and was actually intended as more gloating.

Edit: See?

[One Step Two]

Man, you will not necessarily die. Imprisonment , Greater Betow Curse . I can cast Supernatural Trap the Soul.
And if you die , your soul will be trapped . Effect of Death Giant.(MM3)

This character can not win the Master of Shadow in direct combat . It is inefficient.

Sorry friend, too late, I have your admittance recorded, but like I said, thanks for playing. I asked specifically about your tactics, you only started adding caveats once I had you locked down. Better luck next time!

Edit: Why should I bother fighting you in direct combat? You never agreed to rules regarding an arena of any kind. Tsk, the Mackerel in Shallows is such a poor loser.

[ryu]

Sorry friend, too late, I have your admittance recorded, but like I said, thanks for playing. I asked specifically about your tactics, you only started adding caveats once I had you locked down. Better luck next time!

Also I had response on you at the end of last page. If you have an answer to that I'm fully prepared to take this rabbit hole even deeper.

[ragevillain]

Sadly I'm pretty sure that only looks like he was admitting defeat due to poor communication and was actually intended as more gloating.

Edit: See?
I have not been defeated, in fact never been near it. But rather I liked his tactics,
Mind Blank
Psion Mind Blank
Vecna ​​-Blooded
Are all counters . And this character can not win a duel directly, it is inefficient.

[One Step Two]

Also I had response on you at the end of last page. If you have an answer to that I'm fully prepared to take this rabbit hole even deeper.

Yes, I did actually, see what do you do when it comes to the text in Hypercognition regarding Echoes of Knowledge in the Astral plane. And, follow up question, What Happens if I start making consecutive hops backwards in time, and use Hypercognition, before said history fades?

[JNAProductions]

I have not been defeated, in fact never been near it. But rather I liked his tactics,
Mind Blank
Psion Mind Blank
Vecna ​​-Blooded
Are all counters . And this character can not win a duel directly, it is inefficient.

Except none of those counters actually work.

And in addition, it's more efficient to just wipe you from existence. Actually fighting directly is inefficient, if anything.

[ryu]

Yes, I did actually, see what do you do when it comes to the text in Hypercognition regarding Echoes of Knowledge in the Astral plane. And, follow up question, What Happens if I start making consecutive hops backwards in time, and use Hypercognition, before said history fades?

Problem is that if the history is stricken it's stricken all the way back. Causality is kinda hilarious like that. You aren't just wiping books and minds now. You're wiping all knowledge that ever existed of you from history. By necessity it's a temporal concept.

[One Step Two]

Ah I didn't see this! But that's the thing. It's worth 0 copper until someone tries to use ice assassin or the like. Then it becomes demanded, and therefore the price matters. It's Schrodinger's fingernails. They may not be willing to pay it, but it becomes a demanded item with a set price. There are many items in d&d that aren't worth the price, and no one would want them because there are other things that are considered better, but the price remains the price even if no one buys them.



As I mentioned just a moment ago, the key is for the item to be both worthless and priceless at the same time, so I feel that transforming into something like an angel would actually hurt the survivability because it makes it affordable.

Sorry LTwerewolf, didn't meant to miss this question.

You're totally correct in that it applies a value to the item in question, but it at least stops someone pulling out your toenail from their newly purchased spell component pouch. Collapsing the Schrodinger's fingernail wave stops only half the abuse.