Tome of Battle and Psionics

[Zsaber0]

Has Paizo mentioned any plans of officially adapting Psionics or the Tome of Battle system into Pathfinder, of does the success or Dreamscarred Press' Path of War and Psionics Unleashed mean that they won't even bother?

[Big Fau]

Paizo didn't care about Psionics despite it being in the SRD, so they let DSP do the job.

ToB is a different story. As it isn't OGC, they have not right to update it without WotC sending a C&D order. DSP circumvented it, while Paizo just ignored it outside of feats to mimic it.

[RolkFlameraven]

So far as I know DSP's books let them go 'we don't need to bother' and that's that. That might have changed over the years, and Occult Adventures are "psychic" classes.

[The Glyphstone]

Well, there is Psychic Magic, but that's just Vancian spell slots with Psionic fluff Frankensteined onto it. Probably not what you were looking for.

[meemaas]

Paizo will NEVER do psionics of their own. The Devs have stated tat they do not like the mechanics and will never update them themselves.

They also mentioned at the same time that DSP did a great job of it, and that they have no plans to infringe upon that anyways.

Mind you this conversation was well before PoW, and OA, which was their take on psionics as is.

[Tuvarkz]

Paizo also thinks martials are fine where they are, and wouldn't do something to give them a significant powerbump.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Paizo also thinks martials are fine where they are, and wouldn't do something to give them a significant powerbump.They actually weakened martial feats significantly, while doing little to nothing to various magic-based feats (such as metamagic).

[Tuvarkz]

They actually weakened martial feats significantly, while doing little to nothing to various magic-based feats (such as metamagic).

I'm more than aware about this. I was talking about the current state of martials in pathfinder, not the changes that paizo made when creating pathfinder.

[Ssalarn]

Has Paizo mentioned any plans of officially adapting Psionics or the Tome of Battle system into Pathfinder, of does the success or Dreamscarred Press' Path of War and Psionics Unleashed mean that they won't even bother?

The psychic magic from Occult Adventures was their version of psionics. They have no interest in martial initiating mechanics for this iteration of the game.

From what I've heard from the Paizo staff, new subsystems in general are going to be something they stay away from through this iteration of the game.

[Psyren]

I for one am glad they're not tackling this. For one it gives plenty of design space for great 3P publishers like DSP to work with. For two, I actually like what they came up with for Psychic Magic - i.e. making it fully compatible with things like metamagic and PrCs that require spellcasting, plus allowing you a quick and easy way to convert arcane and divine spells by replacing the components. And for 3, this allowed them to avoid some of the negatives that hang around psionics to this day, like the nova problem and the lack of party buffs and heals.

I wouldn't complain if they came up with their own version of PoW or an initiation system, but personally I think things like Rage Powers and Advanced Weapon Training, combined with the Stamina system and Style Feats, give martials enough tactical fun things to do round-to-round without having to worry about juggling various discipline progressions.

[Prime32]

Well, there is Psychic Magic, but that's just Vancian spell slots with Psionic fluff Frankensteined onto it. Probably not what you were looking for.
Closer to warlock and Tome of Magic fluff, though they do borrow a few spell names from psionic powers.

Psionics is about manipulating your internal energy, and occasionally spitting it out at things. The stuff in Occult Adventures is mostly about sympathetic magic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sympathetic_magic) and dealing with alien entities.

The closest thing Paizo has written to ToB is probably the Weapon Master's Handbook (and to a lesser extent the Armor Master's Handbook). Not in the sense of mechanics, but in the sense of giving fighters cool stuff like the ability to cut spells out of the air.

[Psyren]

The stuff in Occult Adventures is mostly about sympathetic magic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sympathetic_magic) and dealing with alien entities.

That's true of the Occultist, Spiritualist and Medium, but the Psychic and Mesmerist are all internal and feel very psionic. A Psychic merely has to imagine a wolf in very vivid detail and bam, wolf. (Either summoning one or turning into one. depending on their avenue of study.) A Mesmerist meanwhile pushes thoughts and even abilities straight into the heads of those around him, including allies, and doesn't need any kind of sympathetic connection or external entity's help to do so.



The closest thing Paizo has written to ToB is probably the Weapon Master's Handbook (and to a lesser extent the Armor Master's Handbook). Not in the sense of mechanics, but in the sense of giving fighters cool stuff like the ability to cut spells out of the air.

The Stamina rules introduced in Unchained gave them some cool abilities too, and the books mentioned also have yet more stamina tricks. There is even a variant rule that makes stamina tricks purely fighter-only, for those who want Fighters to occupy a special niche from a martial standpoint.

[Zanos]

Paizo will NEVER do psionics of their own. The Devs have stated tat they do not like the mechanics and will never update them themselves.
I don't understand this mindset. I absolutely despise most psionic fluff because it reeks of special snowflaking, but the mechanics are, at least in 3.5, pretty solid. They're also much easier for new players to pick up, because it's very easy for them to just equate it to mana or whatever they're familiar with. Also augmenting weaker powers into more powerful versions instead of having 4 discrete versions of a spell was much cleaner.

[digiman619]

I don't understand this mindset. I absolutely despise most psionic fluff because it reeks of special snowflaking, but the mechanics are, at least in 3.5, pretty solid. They're also much easier for new players to pick up, because it's very easy for them to just equate it to mana or whatever they're familiar with. Also augmenting weaker powers into more powerful versions instead of having 4 discrete versions of a spell was much cleaner.

That's one of the reasons that DSP suggested a possible refluff as runes.
Rune Magic
“The robed figure raised his finger and traced a glowing rune of power in the air, the rune flashing brightly upon its completion and a ball of fire shooting forth from it toward the distant orc. Upon striking the orc, the ball exploded into a blazing inferno, consuming not only the single orc, but those nearby, leaving only burnt husks of char in their places.”
While psionics uses tattoos that might have appearances that could be described as “runic,” having the power point system based around runes, which already have ties to races like the dwarves and to certain magic spells, makes it an easy way to incorporate the psionic system into your game without the mental, spiritual, or crystalline ties that the default psionic theme brings. As rune magic, psionics would still use power points, augmentation, and psionic focus. The psionic classes can even still be used, all by changing the names but without any need to change the mechanics.
Changes
To change psionics into rune magic, the below suggestions are given to the different aspects of the system.
Power points: Rename power points to runic energy or even mana.
Powers: Simply call powers runes. Specific powers such as detect psionics could simply be called detect runic energy or even just use detect magic, although keep in mind that psionic creatures, which would instead be runic creatures, would still be detected, as detailed below.
Psionic Focus: Probably the easiest change, simply call it focus or runic focus.
Class Names: The psion could become the runecaster, the psychic warrior the runic warrior, the soulknife the runeblade, and the wilder the wild pattern.
Manifestations: Where psionic powers might carry different displays, such as lights, smells, or sounds, rune magic would use visible runes that appear either on the caster, on the target, or even as a pattern of runes that appear in the air. These runes might be accompanied by a sound or some other display depending upon the desired implementation in your game.
Psicrystals: Instead of being a small crystal, the psicrystal could be changed to be a small ceramic carving with a variety of runes covering its form and called a runestone. The runes would grant the carving the same game statistics as a standard psicrystal, but its appearance would be more in-line with the theme of rune magic.
Psionic Creatures: It is likely going to be difficult to incorporate psionic creatures into your games without more significant changes, as their appearances are a bit more detailed and thematic. However, this doesn’t mean it can’t be done! For example, the brain mole might instead be itself covered in runes and seek out new runes to siphon energy in order to feed.
Sample Powers: The chart below gives several psionic powers with their normal name and then a potential name for a rune magic theme.
Alternate Power Names
Astral construct ->Runic protector
Animal affinity ->Augment self
Energy ray-> Runic shot
Offensive precognition ->Insightful attacks
Precognition ->Intuitive edge

[Big Fau]

I don't understand this mindset. I absolutely despise most psionic fluff because it reeks of special snowflaking, but the mechanics are, at least in 3.5, pretty solid. They're also much easier for new players to pick up, because it's very easy for them to just equate it to mana or whatever they're familiar with. Also augmenting weaker powers into more powerful versions instead of having 4 discrete versions of a spell was much cleaner.

Paizo's developers are notorious for knee-jerk reactions, and Psionics hits just enough perceived power to make them think that it is overpowered.

[Psyren]

Paizo's developers are notorious for knee-jerk reactions, and Psionics hits just enough perceived power to make them think that it is overpowered.

This is hyperbole; the only thing Paizo have officially been wary of regarding psionics' power is the "Nova Problem." This is in fact a legitimate issue with the system - even the kings of psionics, DSP themselves, acknowledged it as such (UPsi pg. 139) and provide several suggestions for GMs to tweak their campaigns or even houserule/edit the manifesters to deal with it. (Which, if Paizo had taken this approach I'm sure several folks would be shrieking "Oberoni!" to the rafters, but instead DSP did it so it's fine.) Psychic Magic meanwhile avoids this issue entirely by using slots, like any other magic.


I don't understand this mindset. I absolutely despise most psionic fluff because it reeks of special snowflaking, but the mechanics are, at least in 3.5, pretty solid. They're also much easier for new players to pick up, because it's very easy for them to just equate it to mana or whatever they're familiar with. Also augmenting weaker powers into more powerful versions instead of having 4 discrete versions of a spell was much cleaner.

The Undercasting mechanic solves the "I have 9 versions of the same spell because of leveling from 1 to 17 but now I only really use 3 of them" problem. It (a) lets you choose the version of the spell you want to use and (b) allows you to instantly retrain the now-redundant lower-level form of the spell to something else. Thus there is no penalty to e.g. learning Summon Monster 2 as a Psychic even if you plan on never using it again past level 8.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Are the Summon Monster spells able to be undercast? I didn't think they were. They SHOULD be, but I'm not sure what the rules are on that.

[Slithery D]

They're not, only the Psychic-only traditional psionic abilities converted into spells (Mind Shield, Psychic Crush, etc.) can be be undercast.

[Segev]

I'm not a huge fan of the occult adventures stuff calling it "psychic," because...well, it just feels like "more magic" to me. But the system isn't awful.

I do like undercasting, and actually think it should be a default for arcane and divine magic, too. Spontcasters thus would need only the highest-level version of, say, summon monster, while a wizard could prepare summon monster IV in a 2nd level slot to have effectively summon monster II without having had to either specifically hunt down each of the variants or spent his 2/level spells on them. (Yes, I know, wizards CAN get them in most games, but not all DMs are generous enough to let you just buy spells.)

[Milo v3]

A Psychic merely has to imagine a wolf in very vivid detail and bam, wolf. (Either summoning one or turning into one. depending on their avenue of study.)
While tapping into the dimension of dream, or because their mind is ascended after all their drugs, or because they have the power of friendship, or because they made a pact with an eldritch thing, or they unlocked the power because they are an ascetic monk.... It's not like they got the power from just "well I think therefore it happens", there's a reason the disciplines exist. Psionic characters don't have any reason for their brains to be more "potent", they just are.


A Mesmerist meanwhile pushes thoughts and even abilities straight into the heads of those around him, including allies, and doesn't need any kind of sympathetic connection or external entity's help to do so.
I see hypnotists as more psychic fake mystic type than I seem them than I see them as psionic individuals.


I'm not a huge fan of the occult adventures stuff calling it "psychic," because...well, it just feels like "more magic" to me. But the system isn't awful.
It's the magic that psychics claim to possess, thus psychic magic. I'm not sure on the issue, could you expand on this?

[digiman619]

I'm not a huge fan of the occult adventures stuff calling it "psychic," because...well, it just feels like "more magic" to me. But the system isn't awful.

One of the reasons I call it soul magic in my games, it keeps enough of the original flavor without stepping on psionics' toes.

[Segev]

It's the magic that psychics claim to possess, thus psychic magic. I'm not sure on the issue, could you expand on this?

Psionics/psychic powers have always been distinct from wizardly powers in NEARLY (not all) every fictional setting that's included both. The trappings are usually quite different, and even the way they work is.

"Psychic magic," as presented in Occult Adventures, really just feels like more arcane magic. Except for the spiritualist, who feels a bit more divine. (See: Shamanic and druidic traditions.)

Making it a "third kind" of magic is a potentially interesting concept, but I'm not sure what the use of it is. I also find the "emotional/intuitive components" thing to be...clumsy. I get it; you want it to be psychic/psionic, and they don't chant or wave their hands around. It would've been better achieved by just giving "psychic spells" somatic or material components only, rather than trying to shoehorn in a new component type that is rather hard to quantify.

In short, I think they would have been better served either treating it as an adaptation of existing magic for greater compatibility, or by making a new subsystem for it. Making this kludged pseudo-subsystem of an existing subsystem leaves it feeling like it isn't quite its own thing, isn't quite fitting in, and is too restrained by what hasn't changed to really fully capture what it wants to be.


There are interesting things in Occult Adventures. I just don't care for "psychic magic" as presented. It feels poorly thought-out and kludged together. "I want to be different, but not so different that I can actually do something better than if I hadn't been made different!"

[Zsaber0]

So if telling us to use Path of War and Ultimate Psionics are all we're going to get out of Paizo, what's the general consensus on the quality of Dreamscarred Press materials. Just from my own going over the books and poking around, it looks extremely well done and just looking at the forums it's obvious they playtest a lot of their material before releasing it.

[Tuvarkz]

So if telling us to use Path of War and Ultimate Psionics are all we're going to get out of Paizo, what's the general consensus on the quality of Dreamscarred Press materials. Just from my own going over the books and poking around, it looks extremely well done and just looking at the forums it's obvious they playtest a lot of their material before releasing it.

UltPsi has minimal balance issues (Student Wilder and Psion being T2, and the Psychic Reformation power (when augmented) pumping them to T1). Path of War+Expanded has a few outlier maneuvers that are far too strong (Bilious Strike for example), and a few disciplines that are dealing too much damage (Broken Blade is the biggest issue here), and Steel Serpent being too weak. They are getting rebalanced when the errata comes out, though.

[Omnificer]

So if telling us to use Path of War and Ultimate Psionics are all we're going to get out of Paizo, what's the general consensus on the quality of Dreamscarred Press materials. Just from my own going over the books and poking around, it looks extremely well done and just looking at the forums it's obvious they playtest a lot of their material before releasing it.

Dreamscarred Press is generally very well liked and has a solid grasp of balanced class design, equivalent to Paizo's Hybrid classes.

Their initiator classes can overshadow most Paizo martials, but that is due to them being very versatile and capable of damage while many Paizo martials are not.

Their basic Psionic classes are about the same as 3.5, with the Soulknife bumped up in power to something usable. There is only one or two "full manifesters", so Psionics won't overshadow Pathfinder spellcasters, but probably would for martials yet again.

It is not uncommon for people to ban Pathfinder Core and add Dreamscarred Press. I personally like that idea and have seen it suggested numerous times.

[Zanos]

So if telling us to use Path of War and Ultimate Psionics are all we're going to get out of Paizo, what's the general consensus on the quality of Dreamscarred Press materials. Just from my own going over the books and poking around, it looks extremely well done and just looking at the forums it's obvious they playtest a lot of their material before releasing it.
They did a very okay job of copying content that already exists and saying it was different.

There are a lot of editing issues in specific maneuvers for Path of War, or just things that weren't really well thought it.

[upho]

They did a very okay job of copying content that already exists and saying it was different.While that may be a correct assessment of the earliest releases, I believe it hasn't been true for quite a while now. Everything psionic I've seen released the past couple of years have felt distinctly original and new to me. Though admittedly I might very well be wrong here, as I somehow never got much experience with 3.5 psionics and my memory may simply fail.


There are a lot of editing issues in specific maneuvers for Path of War, or just things that weren't really well thought it.I think it unfortunately shows here and there how sadly understaffed the first PoW team was. On the bright side, clarifications solving most of those issues are readily available here on GitPG, and the few outlier options having balance issues or more complex potential mechanical glitches are currently being looked at also by the many talented new developers who have joined the PoW team (virtually all of them being GitPG regulars, of course :smalltongue:). Once the errata for PoW is out, it wouldn't surprise me if the PoW/:E martial initiating system will stand out as one of the most mechanically polished and well balanced of all major commercially released PF subsystems.

In addition, there's plenty of new content being developed, improving the versatility of martial maneuvers and steadily increasing the number of viable martial character concepts possible, while plugging glaring holes left in the 1st party rules for martial combat. In short, I belive the Path of War seems to lead to an increasingly brighter and even more interesting and well-designed future...

...and I think it's already bright and stylish enough I wouldn't recommend talking a stroll without wearing designer shades... :smallcool: