Optimization CHA based paladin tank/support char [Archive]

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Finlam

2016-08-17, 01:58 PM

Lately I've been intrigued by the idea of a single stat character. The party configuration in my current game has just recently shifted, leaving us in dire need of healing, combat support, and tanking so I figured it was a good opportunity to kill two (four?) birds with one stone.

I'm using the Paladin as the chasis for this build for several reasons:

1) Durability - Armor and shield proficiencies, spells, healing, and a d10 HD make the Paladin a respectably durable class.

2) Spell selection - The paladin spell list is great for combat support and healing with spells like Bless, Aura of Vitality, etc...

3) Their casting stat is CHA - This is important because it opens up 3 avenues of multiclass later: Bard, Sorcerer, and Warlock.

4) Spell Prep - Paladin spell prep is has one important restriction, "The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots." This will be important if we decide to multiclass later. *I stand corrected*

5) Healing - The Paladin has enough healing to ensure the party is kept at full HP outside of combat, this is particularly true after 3rd level spells come online and we gain Aura of viatality (a single spell capable of restoring 20d6 HP in a single casting).

6) Support - The Paladin has access to one of the best support features in the game: the ability to add CHA to saving throws for themselves and everyone within 10 ft and this ability comes online at only level 6.

In short, the Paladin is on-point to adequately meet all my goals with a tank/support/heal type character based on a single stat, and to be more than adequate in a lot of ways.

Here's the breakdown of the original build:

Level 1
Start with Vhuman to pick up a 16 in CHA, I'm not worried about our other stats, go nuts with them, but I'd recommend prioritizing CON next.

Grab the feat "Magic Initiate" and choose the Druid class. We only need the cantrip "Shillelagh", so get that and anything else you want. I kind of like Absorb Elements for a first level, but there are no shortage of useful spells to pick. *I stand corrected*

Now that we have Shillelagh, we want to make sure we're using a shield and wielding our quarterstaff one handed at these low levels. Combat will consist of us using our first bonus action to cast Shillelagh. This allows us to use our casting stat, CHA, for attack and damage instead of STR and to boost our weapon damage to magical/d8. Then we wade into combat to beat things over the head.

Pick any oath you want: it doesn't matter we'll be going Oathbreaker at level 3 (though if your DM is cool he may let you go Oathbreaker right from the start and skip the "fall from grace" part).
Nothing exciting happens at level 1, but the groundwork is laid.

level 2
Pick a fighting style. You can't really go wrong with any of them because you can build towards all of them, as we'll discuss in a moment. Just make sure you know which direction you're going so that your choice here syncs up with your level 12 choice.

Spellcasting is online now. Always prepare bless, this is our first step into supporting the party, and adding a d4 to every attack and saving throw for a solid minute is pretty good support.

level 3
Not a lot happens here. If you're not an Oathbreaker yet, consider doing it. If not, just get it done by level 7.

Level 4
ASI - You better pick CHA and boost that bonus to +4.

level 5
This is a great level. Our second attack comes online, our prof increases to +3 and we get access to 2nd level spells.

level 6
Aura of Protection - We will now be adding +CHA, in our case +4, to all saving throws (a 20% increased success rate!) and so will all of our allies on the frontlines. This is a major increase to the party's durability.

level 7
Aura of Hate - We can now add +CHA to damage rolls with a melee weapon. This means that we are now attacking with a +7 bonus for 1d8+8 magical damage twice per rounds (with smites in our back pocket for when we need them). We deal a minimum of 9 damage per hit. Not too shabby

level 8
We're here for the ASI. Another +1 to hit, +2 to damage, and +1 to the save DCs of our spells is too good to pass up. We're now hitting for a minimum of 11 magic damage and we get two attacks a round. Not bad for attacking one handed with a shield.
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That's the base of the build. Some spells, a decent amount of HP, a respectable AC, unfortunately light on healing until we gain 3rd level spell slots.

At this point, if we weren't trying to provide tanking/healing/support to the party we could stay straight Paladin, at level 12 we ditch the shield, pick up GWM , start having our undead minions (we should have a few from being an Oathbreaker) use the help action in combat to guarantee us some crits. At which point we are attacking for +4 (proficiency) with an optional +1d4 (if we keep up bless) to hit for d8 (magic) + d8 (radiant) + 20 weapon damage a hit.

At 16 we take PAM and we now have 3 attacks every round. Combined with our undead and spellcasting, we're a pretty competent, if combat oriented, character.

While I'm comfortable with our durability and damage, the 8th level build above does not have the spellcasting versatility and slots per day that I want, nor does it provide enough healing. We're going to multi-class into Bard.

level 9
Our first level of bard. Pick up a couple of cantrips, 4 new spells that don't need to be prepared, bardic inspiration, and new proficiency. Not bad for a single level, adds to our support quite a bit, but the most significant part of it is ... 3rd level spells! Aura of Vitality is now online, allowing us to make significant contributions to group healing.

level 10
Jack of Trades! Nice to have no matter what, but we're primarily interested in Song of Rest which will be a minor boon to our party healing. Another spell slot and another spell learned.

level 11
We don't really gain much from Valor, so we're going to go into College of Lore. We'll get 3 new proficiency, 2 expertise, 4th level spells, and cutting words (which is a nice addition to our available reaction based abilities). This is a decent upgrade to our support capabilities as the spells and cutting words allow us to increase our ability to affect the flow of battle.

level 12
Either go for an ASI to CON, since we should be out on the front lines this is always helpful, or go for one of GWM, PAM, or Shield Mastery to effectively have evasion, taking no damage on a DEX save that allows you to save for half. I'm partial to Shield Mastery just because it makes the character even more durable, but going for an increase in DPR wouldn't be bad either.

level 13
We now have 5th level spells, an upgrade to our bardic inspiration, and Font of Inspiration.

level 14
Finally we get to capstone of the build: Countercharm.

Just kidding!

What we actually want is Magical Secrets. We can pick two spells from any list of level 5 or bellow.

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I'm gonna stop the build there because I consider that to be pretty close to the upper end of playable territory.

To re-cap:
*At level 4 we're doing d8+4 magic damage on a melee attack with a minimum AC of 18, minimum HP of 28 (that's with a CON of 0), spellcasting at 1st level, and we're helping sustain the party with bless and our various healing abilities. Not bad, pretty good in the absence of a cleric.

*At level 8 we have two melee attacks, both of which deal 1d8+10. We've still got the nice 18+ AC and HP from being a Paladin, and if we have a CON of even 14 (doable since we only need 1 stat to do everything else) we have at least 68 HP. Our support to the party is limited as we're capped at 2nd level spells, but we can prepare 9 spells on top of our oath spells, which is a good amount of versatility. By this time we're also supporting the party (and ourselves) with a nice +5 bonus to all saves from our aura.

*At level 12 we have 9 prepared paladin spells up to 4th level, Shillelagh, plus another Druid cantrip, 3 cantrips from the Bard's list, 7 spells that we don't have to prepare, 8 skill proficiencies (2 bg + 2 Palading + 1 BardMC + 3 CoL), 2 expertise, Jack of All trades, Bardic Inspiration, Cutting words, and Song of Rest. Our contribution both in and out of combat is starting to look pretty good.

*At level 14 we have all that and bag of chips, plus two access to the highest level Paladin spells and two spells known from any spell list of level 5 or lower.

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My question to you Playgrounds: What spells would you pick for this build assuming that you are the sole buffer/healer of the party? What feat would pick between with Shield Mastery, PAM, of GWM? Any other advice to tweak it?

Here's the breakdown of v2 where we consider 2 different builds with a cutoff point of level 12:
Equipped with a better understanding of the rules and lot of really good advice from this thread, I'm taking a second swing at this.

Since I have received so much excellent advice, there's a plethora (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mTUmczVdik) of options for this build. I've decided to narrow down the goals of the build and go from there. The build requirements are:

1. Very SAD - Single attribute dependent, in this case CHA is our target.

2. Tanking - Build must be able to stay up in combat on the front lines.

3. Combat support - The build must help the party perform better in combat, this includes:

3.1 - Keep the party up in combat - Bring people up when they go down, help them pass their saves, give temp HP, provide wards, etc...

3.2 - Control the battlefield - Help optimize the party DPR and positioning while shutting down enemy movement and actions, and cure status effects on party members.

4. Healing - Keep the party at full HP and, hopefully, nearly full HD between combats.

Those are the requirements for the build. While it's always better to have more DPR rather than less, for this build we are willing to yield DPR to any of the 4 requirements.

As a side note, I'm not really open to boulding a character into more than 3 classes. We're kind of stretching the RP aspect of the character pretty thin at that point.

Using the Paladin class as the chasis for the build there are a few options:

warlock dip (w/sorc)
bard (not dip)
cleric dip (w/sorc)
straight paladin

The main benefit of adding Sorc levels to the build is for the metamagic "Extend spell" which basically guarantees that a single casting of Aura of Vitality will restore our comrades to full health. Add in a level of Life cleric to actually guarantee that single casting of AoV will always restore our comrades back to full health. This build best fulfills requirement 4, and exceeds what we need for the requirement by a good margin. (2d6+5 healing per round for 20 rounds == 240 HP from a single casting). This build can either use Sorc 2 or Life Cleric 1 to achieve an acceptable level of healing effectiveness, both of them seems to be much more than we need.

For a one level dip in cleric we get a lot of bang for our buck: +5 to every heal on AoV, 3 cantrips, the 1st level cleric spell list, and a level of full casting.

vs a three level dip in sorc where we get two kinds of metamagic (one of which is extend spell), 4 cantrips, 4 spells known of up to 2nd level, and 3 levels of full casting.

I think we get a lot more versatility out of the sorc dip, which may help us to meet requirement 3.2, but it also requires 3 levels. I think it may be better to go for the one level dip in cleric which still fulfills requirement 4, while allowing us to take levels of bard or some other class to make up the difference in combat support.

The straight Paladin option is really tempting, but probably not doable with requirement 1: we need a way to get Shillelagh on the build or find some other use for action each round (which seems a waste since, as a Paladin, we get two attacks with a single action).

Similarly, a Warlock 3 dip gives us 2 level 2 spell slots per short rest, 1 cantrip and EB known, 4 spells known, Agonizing Blast and Repelling blast (for damage and meeting 3.2), our patron feature, an additional 2 cantrips from any class, and a nifty ritual casting spellbook (Pact of the Tome).

Among the available patrons: Fiend could be alright, but we're not optimizing for damage, so we won't get as much mileage out of it as we could. Fey would be decent for the Charm/Frighten (meets req 3.2 pretty nicely). Undying Light is probably best for the bonus to radiant damage which we will deal with every smite (and once per round if we go to Paladin 9). There's really almost no value added at all from the Great Old One or the Undying patrons.

The biggest weakness of the warlock dip is the spell selection. While fiend pact and Armor of Agathys are great for req 2 and they don't require concentration, they don't help much with the rest of the requirements.

At level 2 spells it gets only slightly better. Earthbind is a very niche, but potentially very useful spell. Darkness is great if your party can take advantage of it. Hold person is pretty good, but it's also on just about every spell list (including the Paladin's) already, so there's no reason to pick it up as a warlock. Misty Step is good. Ray of Enfeeblement is niche, but could be decent.

It seems that almost every Warlock spell offers only limited/niche control or support and we're giving up 3 levels that could be full casting levels for the warlock dip. In the end, I suspect we'd end up using our warlock spell slots mostly to fuel smites and spells from our other class(es) anyway.

It looks like we get a bit of utility, a nice amount of tankiness, and some decent battlefield control via repelling blast and Fey Presence, and some pretty good damage options. It's a lot of benefit for those 3 levels, but is a bit lighter on control and healing than the other options while also giving up 3 levels of casting.

Lastly, there's the bard MC. 3 levels of a bard MC nets us Cutting Words, Song of rest, Bardic Inspiration, Jack of All Trades, 2 expertise, 4 proficiencies, 3 levels of full casting, 2 cantrips, and 6 spells known of up to 2nd level. The spell selection of the bard offers mostly out of combat utility spells, but also several very nice in combat control spells from Warding Wind to Hold Person, to Phantasmal Force, Crown of Madness, Blindness/Deafness, Dissonant Whispers, etc...

The benefit of the bard dip is a decent amount of combat control, a boost to our healing, and a general boost to a bunch of non-combat stuff (though double prof in Athletics is pretty nice if we decide to grapple). In short, the bard is not the best at meeting any of our requirements (except, perhaps control), but it is decent at meeting all of them.

The greatest downside to the bard MC, is that we really need 6 levels to get Shillelagh and some other 3rd level (which will probably be AoV) making this build come together at the late, late level of 12.

It looks like if we're in it for the long haul, going Oathbreaker 9, Bard 11 would be pretty good. It would net some decent spellcasting, lots of utility,HP, and decent amount of damage. But it comes online at the late level of 13, way too late for my taste.

As a variant on that idea, we could go Paladin 2/Bard6/Paladin X, which gets us a lot of battlefield control and healing pretty quickly while we for our damage to catch up at level 13 when we gain Aura of Hate. This one should be pretty darn playable all the way through and level of Life Cleric wouldn't really hurt.

We may be able to fulfill our requirements by going Paladin 2/Life Cleric 1/Warlock 3/Paladin X. The downside being that we don't get a max stat until 12th level, which kind of defeats the point of being SAD.

We could go for Paladin 8/Warlock 3/Paladin X, where we have a max stat at level 8, but no Shillelagh till 11. Or, better yet, go Paladin 2/Warlock3/Paladin x, giving us Shillelagh at level 5, and a max stat at level 11.

In short, it seems like there's no way to really go wrong with this build. At the end of the day it seems the bard MC does the best job fulfilling the requirements, but at the cost of having the weakest DPR of all the available options, and taking the most time to really come into its own.

At the other extreme, the 3 level Warlock dip has much lower healing, utility, and control, but a high degree of tankiness more endurance thanks to short rest spell slots, and much higher DPR. It is also viable at all levels, but allows the character to contribute more on the damage side of things.

For me, it looks like there's a tipping point at 12th level: if you're going to be playing the long game and starting 12 level or higher, or if you're comfortable with your Paladin having low DPR and focusing almost exclusively on combat support at low levels, then Bard seems to be the way to go.

If you're starting before 12th level, and you want more DPR at the cost of control and delaying Aura of Vitality, then the Warlock 3 dip is probably what you're after.

With either build, if you have a level to spare for Life cleric, it's probably worth it.

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Summary

The features of the core build that I, personally like:

+5 to all saves for you and your allies, an immense boon to party durability
Shillelagh + Aura of hate = +2xCHA added to all melee attacks, roughly equivalent to 3d6 extra damage on every attack once our stats are maxed
Aura of Vitality - 20d6 healing in a single minute
High AC and HP
Smites when we need them to help compensate for our DPR

With a Life cleric 1 dip our healing gets better and we extend our spell list slightly .

With a Warlock 3 dip, we get Shillelagh sooner, Armor of Agathys, EB+AB, and Repelling blast for a decent contribution to DPR, tankiness, DPR, and Control, respectively .

With a Bard MC, we get decent spellcasting, a lot of control spells, some healing, Shillelagh (eventually), and some really nice out of combat features (or phenomenal in-combat features if we are going to grapple).

On that note, are there any spells the bard or Paladin can grab to make grappling a better option? It seems that even without Shillelagh , being able to manually lock down opponents by grapping with expertise in gapple could be pretty useful. Are there any damage aura type spells that would help with that?
[EDIT]
For races, vHuman is still probably the best to pick up the Inspiring Leader feat (ty Grod). But really any race with any amount of CHA bonus will do. I like Aasimar for the flavor, but they are definitely not the best choice.

For feats, it's hard to beat Inspiring Leader as it will never non be useful and it can be used to buff our undead in addition to our party members. If you decide to go another route and optimize for damage, there's always PAM and GWM, and we can get a bit or control with Sentinel and Shield Mastery.

A link to the post for build #2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21116103&postcount=23).

Grod_The_Giant

2016-08-17, 02:07 PM

Finlam

2016-08-17, 02:10 PM

So your first problem is that your casting stat with Magic Initiate is the same as the original class-- so for a Druid cantrip, it's Wisdom. You need three levels in Tome Warlock or six in Lore Bard to get Shillelagh as a Cha-based spell.

I read that differently. Crap.

The backup plan is to rush for the Lore bard 6th level then. I guess you could start with a feat then. Or go anything that's not human (Aasimar seem kind of nice). It just makes the character a lot harder to play before then you get that cantrip.

But if that's the only problem, I think it's still a pretty solid build by double digit levels, just got switch up the order a bit.

Rysto

2016-08-17, 02:13 PM

Grod_The_Giant

2016-08-17, 02:22 PM

I read that differently. Crap.

The backup plan is to rush for the Lore bard 6th level then. I guess you could start with a feat then. Or go anything that's not human (Aasimar seem kind of nice). It just makes the character a lot harder to play before then you get that cantrip.

But if that's the only problem, I think it's still a pretty solid build by double digit levels, just got switch up the order a bit.
I'd say start with Inspiring Leader, then-- great Cha-based support. You should be alright in the end, though-- you can easily start with a good Str and Cha both. 16 Str should last you a good long while.

Alternately, I think you could get a lot of the same things more gracefully as a Paladin 2/Bard 18. Take Magic Initiate for Booming and/or Green Flame Blade and you're set for melee damage, especially with all those tasty high-level spell slots to Smite with. Or maybe Pally 2/Bard 6/Pally +4.

-------

I also note that you may have misread how multiclassing works-- you can use spell slots for either class' spells, but your spells known/prepared are calculated individually. So a Paladin 8/Bard 6 would prepare spells as an 8th level Paladin and know spells as a 6th level Bard. You can use the 3rd level slots from Bard to up-cast Paladin spells, but you can't prepare any 3rd level pally spells. On the other hand, you can nab Aura of Vitality through Magical Secrets, along with Shillelgah.

EKruze

2016-08-17, 02:27 PM

If you want a healing/support/tanking focussed class that works off of a single attribute, a cleric with Shillelagh is a good option. Nature Clerics can pick it up directly, or else Magic Initiate. A Nature Cleric with Shillelagh and Booming Blade (from Magic Initiate) should be able to do decent damage in melee, too, while still having all of the cleric spells for support.

You run into the same problem as the OP with this build, that being that your Magic Initiate Booming Blade fires off of Int or Cha instead of Wis. Another way to do it is to go Arcana Cleric and then pick up Shillelagh off of Magic Initiate in order to make everything line up with Wis.

Grod_The_Giant

2016-08-17, 02:29 PM

You run into the same problem as the OP with this build, that being that your Magic Initiate Booming Blade fires off of Int or Cha instead of Wis. Another way to do it is to go Arcana Cleric and then pick up Shillelagh off of Magic Initiate in order to make everything line up with Wis.
Booming Blade doesn't care about your casting ability, luckily. Green Flame does to an extent, but not Booming.

Drackolus

2016-08-17, 02:35 PM

While playing a life cleric, I realized that divine strike isn't even significantly better than a cantrip anyway. Be a hill dwarf life cleric and you're good to go- don't need str for your heavy armor, +1hp/lvl (bringing you up to roughly paladin health BEFORE con), and a +2con/+1wis. If you REALLY want it, m.initiate:Druid for produce flame, shillelagh, and goodberry (10 mini-potions of 4hp a day!). Biggest downsides -no control abilities other than spell slots and poor concentration. Bless, the go-to buff, helps. If you had shillelagh, war caster, and booming blade(spell sniper), you can control great... But that takes 3 feats and you aren't even vhuman.

Speaking of which, warcaster+bb helps hold folks down great. A half-high elf can get bb, and a +2 to cha to boot. Add warcaster and warlock and you're good to go.

Finlam

2016-08-17, 02:38 PM

I also note that you may have misread how multiclassing works-- you can use spell slots for either class' spells, but your spells known/prepared are calculated individually. So a Paladin 8/Bard 6 would prepare spells as an 8th level Paladin and know spells as a 6th level Bard. You can use the 3rd level slots from Bard to up-cast Paladin spells, but you can't prepare any 3rd level pally spells. On the other hand, you can nab Aura of Vitality through Magical Secrets, along with Shillelgah.

Ouch. That puts a damper on it. I think that using magical secrets to get Aura of Vitality and Shillelgah in one swoop would still make it a pretty decent build though.

So at level 12 we have

Paladin 6/Bard 6 for 2 attacks a round keying off of CHA via Shillelgah. We also know Aura of Vitality through Magical Secrets. We can prepare more Paladin spells than we'll ever need (up to 2nd level) and we know 9 bard spells of up to 3rd level, while we have spell slots up to 5th level, allowing us to upscale all or spells or just smite like crazy.

It's not a hulking damage monster, but we're durable, have a max casting stat, pretty good healing, the +5 to saves aura, and we should fill the support/tank/heal role reasonably well (even if our damage isn't that great without a smite).

Corran

2016-08-17, 02:45 PM

Another little problem is that at paladin8/bard1 you dont have access to aura of vitality (despite having 3rd level spell slots). You need either 9 levels of paladin or 6 levels in lore bard (aditional magical secrets) to get access to that spell. There are a few more things that I dont quite like that much (magic initiate working with wisdom was mentioned already), but instead of going through them one by one, and considering that your aim is to create a PC that fullfills several roles at once, I though to instead suggest you to have a look at this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?471899-Ridiculously-good-healer-%28just-for-fun%29).

Finlam

2016-08-17, 02:52 PM

Biggstick

2016-08-17, 03:21 PM

Thanks for sharing that. That looks pretty neat.

Literally the only problem I see with it is the extreme degree of multiclassing. I like it as much as the next guy, but there is some 3.5 type MC going on in that thread.

I mean, the class is really just a Life Cleric 1 // Lore Bard xx // Sorc 3 (after Bard 6, any time afterwards is fine though). You can start your career as a Life Cleric who worships pretty much any deity (most DM's will allow you to re-fluff a deity to containing the Life domain if it doesn't already) who experiences a different calling in life and becomes a Lore Bard. Once you're PC level 7, see what the DM can do about bringing in an event that imbues you with Sorcerery in some way shape or form (falling into the River Styx, surviving some crazy storm, going to a forbidden magic infused place). This limits you to Wild or Storm magic, but is still doable if you have a flexible DM. What's really nice about the build is that you don't have a problem waiting on the Sorcerer levels, as they won't cripple you to not have. Even if you wait until PC level 10-15, you'll still be working just fine.

Max out Charisma, pick up Inspiring Leader, and you're a fantastic team mate for your allies.

Citan

2016-08-17, 06:00 PM

Finlam

2016-08-18, 03:53 AM

Hi!
Well, I have a build for you, because I thought about something similar since quite some time. It's made up as following.
Warlock 3: Shillelagh
Paladin Devotion X
Then whatever you want (I'd personnally add Sorcerer for metamagic and more spell slots, but not strictly required. Bard is also a solid choice if you want to be the support/party face or grab Paladin spells earlier).

Start Paladin. Then immediately go Warlock 1 to get a melee cantrip (Booming Blade). Then go Warlock 2 to get Agonizing Blast. Then Warlock 3 to get Shillelagh. Resume your career as Paladin. You don't really care about being late in Extra Attack because...
- you get Hex
- you get the best cantrip so you can now engage from afar (so you deal damage while you close in)
- you get a weapon cantrip that you can use with your Charisma (and honestly, even if SCAG is not allowed, I think it's quite similar in damage as long as you hit... Which you will).
- and then you get +CHA to your attacks.
The real downside is getting the Aura of Protection only at lvl 9. So if you prefer being tanky (or if SCAG is not allowed), bear with single-class Paladin until lvl 6 then dip Warlock.

Polearm Master and Sentinel are no-brainers for this build.
Inspiring Leader is another obvious choice, as well as Warcaster.
And since you depend only on CHA, you can max only CHA, keep CON as is (or even it with Resilient) and take three feats.

Alternative: Nature Cleric or War Cleric with Magic initiate: Druid. Done. ;)
That's a pretty cool build but, unfortunately, I don't think that's quite what I'm looking for. If this character is going to fill a combat support role, I don't think Hex will be a good use of concentration most of the time. Getting Eldritch Blast is something I'd thought about too, but one the main goals of the build is to tank, meaning we should be in melee most of the time which makes EB nice, but not nearly as useful as it could be.

I guess the perks of the Warrick dip are that it's easier to pick up Shillelagh, making the core of the build come online faster at level 9. The extra spell slots on a short rest would be nice too. EB + AG is nice, but not as useful since we're in melee most of the time. It's really tempting, but it doesn't seem like warlock 3 has many other features or spells to lend toward combat support or healing, although Armor of Agathys would be nice.

I'll think over replacing bard with warlock, but I need to find more points of synergy between the warlock and the combat support role first.

After all the advice I've gotten, and after being enlightened about a couple of the rules, I'm working on a v2 of the build. I should have that up later today.

Mandragola

2016-08-18, 06:14 AM

Honestly, a paladin with a level of cleric is a pretty good way of doing this.

If you're playing a paladin you need to get to level 9. That's a hell of a long time. By that time you've got two attacks and quite a lot of spell slots to smite stuff, if that's your thing. So the most logical way to tank and hurt the enemy is to hit them with something, rather than taking warlock levels.

I actually don't think you need a huge charisma or wisdom for this character, since the aura doesn't use them. 14s in either are more than sufficient. More charisma would add more to saves of course.

So honestly I think the logical thing is to play a pretty normal paladin, starting with 16 strength, right up to level 11. Get yourself a shield and the duelist style, chop things up with a sword and chuck healing around. Improved divine smite does good things.

After that if you like you could take a level of life cleric and switch to Sorceror. You could start at sorceror at level 1 for Con saves, since concentration is a thing you'll need to do a lot.

There's quite a bit of flexibility around which race to play I think. Non-variant human could actually be a good choice. Mountain dwarf could start out 16, 8, 14, 10, 14, 14 - with the 8 in dex or int as preferred, and human could be about the same. The dwarf gets darkvision, poison resistance and stuff though.

Citan

2016-08-18, 07:25 AM

That's a pretty cool build but, unfortunately, I don't think that's quite what I'm looking for. If this character is going to fill a combat support role.

I guess the perks of the Warrick dip are that it's easier to pick up Shillelagh, making the core of the build come online faster at level 9.
I'll think over replacing bard with warlock, but I need to find more points of synergy between the warlock and the combat support role first.

After all the advice I've gotten, and after being enlightened about a couple of the rules, I'm working on a v2 of the build. I should have that up later today.
Well, technically, you can get Shillelagh with Paladin + Bard at level 9 by going Paladin 3 then Bard 6, but you would be much weaker in the martial aspect (although you'd be better in the support aspect since you have Cutting Words and the like).

Frankly, do as you wish. ;) Both are good and have perks.
If you think you are going up to a very high character level (like 15+) and don't plan on pushing Paladin beyond 6-7 (depending on Oath) or 9 at the utmost, then I'd say Bard is better in the long run mechanically.
If you are unsure of high you will go or want to get up to Pal 11 anyways, then both are equally good choice (or do a triple-class if you want ;) Pal 11 / Lock 3 / Bard 6).

Still, I have the impression you underestimate a bit the added value of Warlock as a support. ;)
- Eldricht Blast means you can damage from afar, so you drop enemy faster, so you support friends by killing enemies before they reach them.
- Repelling Blast is a very strong support ability, see the dedicated thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?497679-is-Repelling-Blast-good). Even for you, even if you should not care so much about opportunity attacks because of your AC, it may be worth it do launch a close range EB once you get several rays to overcome the disadvantage (instead of spending the action to Disengage, you get same effect+damage).
- Beyond EB, you get either a weapon cantrip which is great until you get EA or, if not allowed, Minor Illusion which is another great versatile cantrip.
- Taking Pact of the Tome means you can spend you second Invocation on "Book of Ancient Secrets" (instead of Agonizing Blast) which will allow you to learn any 1st, 2nd and 3rd ritual spells you could come across. While the real value very much depends on the DM, if you have no Cleric nor Wizard in the group, it's great.
- You can also take Guidance with the bonus cantrip (same, if no Cleric).
- If your DM allows UA content, you can pick Undying Light for +CHA bonus on fire and radiant (and it works much better fluff-wise than any other Patron).

What it doesn't offer compared to Bard though...
- Bardic Inspiration (great)
- Double Expertise (great)
- A variety of buff/debuff spells that are great for any party (Bane, Dissonant Whispers, Faerie Fire, Healing Words, Blindness, Heat Metal).
- At least one 3rd level spell from any class (since you will have to spend the other on Shillelagh): Conjure Animals, Aura of Vitality, Crusader's Mantle, Spirit Guardians, Fireball...

Sooo...
I'd say, just wonder if you would like to play with Bard spells and be THE man to use in some skills. If yes, go Bard.
If you want to be able to smite BBEG without thinking of the next fight, go Bard.
If you prefer being "CHA-based" earlier without losing in fight potency and get more sustained damage and support abilities, go Warlock.
If you know (or you asked your DM and he agreed) that you will get many chances to learn ritual spells, go Warlock. ;)
You cannot go wrong anyways with the mix of such classes so make your choice without remorse. ;)

NNescio

2016-08-18, 09:51 AM

Biggstick

2016-08-18, 11:53 AM

A single-classed Arcana Cleric poaching GFB or BB with Arcane Initiate and taking Magic Initiate: Druid for Shieil... Shill... that Irish Stick spell can be quite SAD with strong at-will damage while remaining a potent support, 'though he doesn't get the +Cha to saves aura. He's also adequately tanky enough with medium armor and shield (only 1 less AC compared to a Str build/Dwarf using full plate and shield).

You could start as Fighter 1 for the Defensive style + heavy armor + second wind + Con saves and then go your build as well. Would grant you access to a bit higher AC and all the other benefits of Fighter 1 while only slowing you down 1 level of spell progression.

Mandragola

2016-08-18, 12:03 PM

Biggstick

2016-08-18, 12:27 PM

That's a pretty cool build but, unfortunately, I don't think that's quite what I'm looking for. If this character is going to fill a combat support role, I don't think Hex will be a good use of concentration most of the time. Getting Eldritch Blast is something I'd thought about too, but one the main goals of the build is to tank, meaning we should be in melee most of the time which makes EB nice, but not nearly as useful as it could be.

I guess the perks of the Warrick dip are that it's easier to pick up Shillelagh, making the core of the build come online faster at level 9. The extra spell slots on a short rest would be nice too. EB + AG is nice, but not as useful since we're in melee most of the time. It's really tempting, but it doesn't seem like warlock 3 has many other features or spells to lend toward combat support or healing, although Armor of Agathys would be nice.

I'll think over replacing bard with warlock, but I need to find more points of synergy between the warlock and the combat support role first.

After all the advice I've gotten, and after being enlightened about a couple of the rules, I'm working on a v2 of the build. I should have that up later today.

I mean, who's to say you don't go 5 levels into Warlock for those level 3 slots? Being able to pop Aura of Vitality that many times per day is tons of healing for your party, plus potential access to spells like: Counterspell, Fly, Dispel Magic, not to mention the Pact specific spells. Access to level 3 rituals ain't too shabby either while we're at it. Overall the build only needs to max Cha (2 ASI's), pick up PAM (Human feat), and grab Inspiring Leader (optional, but this is one of the greatest support feats in the game for a party).

Human Paladin 1 (PAM). Minimum 15 Str, make sure you have 16 Cha.
--
--
Paladin 4 (+2 Cha).
--
Paladin 6 (Yay save aura!)
Warlock 1 (Any pact works, Fey is usually the least likely to condemn you as a bad person, if you're worried about the conflicting RP)
Warlock 2 (Bu bye dark vision problems.)
Warlock 3 (Use your other invocation for Pact of the Tome. Grab Shilelagh, Guidance, plus any other flavor you'd like)
[You have a choice at this point. If you're feeling the hurt and need to up your Cha at any point, you can pick up that 4th level of Warlock, otherwise, get back to Paladin. For the purposes of this leveling layout, I'll assume you went Paladin.]
Paladin 7
Paladin 8 (+2 Cha)
Paladin 9 (Yay Aura of Vitality!)
[Again you're presented with another choice at Pal 9 // War 3. If your party needs more in terms of healing and support, going that 4th and 5th level of Warlock will grant you another ASI (Inspiring Leader!) level 3 spells from Warlock, which can include Counterspell or Aura of Vitality Spam. If your party doesn't really need that much more support, you can two more levels into Paladin and get fear immunity and another d8 added onto your damage dice. After Paladin 11 // Warlock 5 though, you can go any mix you want.]

Biggstick

2016-08-18, 12:33 PM

Honestly I still think it's a bit odd to make a charisma-based character whose signature move, the aura, doesn't key off charisma.

You end up having to mess about with feats and multiclassing, wasting ASIs and delaying spell progression, just to do what a single-class paladin can do already using strength.

Except the single-class guy isn't restricted to using rubbish weapons that he can cast shillelagh on.

Shillelagh works well for characters who want to raise their caster stat to 20. Druids, nature clerics and tome warlocks gain loads from it. But a character who doesn't need a high casting stat can just raise their strength and beat people up conventionally.

What aura are you talking about? The "signature move" of the Paladin is the Aura of Protection, and it most definitely keys off of Charisma. And just because a weapon doesn't have a sharp pointy end to it doesn't make it a rubbish weapon.

Another point I'd bring up is the wasting ASI's. In all honesty, you're only using 3 ASI's (PAM, 2x +2 Cha) for the build, even less if you start human.

WereRabbitz

2016-08-18, 12:55 PM

You want Buffs? Heals? Damage?

level 20 Paladin with PAM + Sentinel

done!

Tank? Heavy Armor, Area Control, Reach, Defense Buffs, Compelled duel

Damage? 3 Attacks with up to 3 Improved Divine Smites if they land, Opportunity attacks when someone gets close, Attacks with Reach, and 5d8 Smites on demand? Destructive Wave!

Healing? Aura of vitality, Cures, Lay of hands 100pts, Poison Removal, Remove Magical affects as a action!

Emergency? Pop Level 20 Capstone and remind them who you are.

Finlam

2016-08-18, 01:15 PM

Equipped with a better understanding of the rules and lot of really good advice from this thread, I'm taking a second swing at this.

Since I have received so much excellent advice, there's a plethora (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mTUmczVdik) of options for this build. I've decided to narrow down the goals of the build and go from there. The build requirements are:

1. Very SAD - Single attribute dependent, in this case CHA is our target.

2. Tanking - Build must be able to stay up in combat on the front lines.

3. Combat support - The build must help the party perform better in combat, this includes:

3.1 - Keep the party up in combat - Bring people up when they go down, help them pass their saves, give temp HP, provide wards, etc...

3.2 - Control the battlefield - Help optimize the party DPR and positioning while shutting down enemy movement and actions, and cure status effects on party members.

4. Healing - Keep the party at full HP and, hopefully, nearly full HD between combats.

Those are the requirements for the build. While it's always better to have more DPR rather than less, for this build we are willing to yield DPR to any of the 4 requirements.

As a side note, I'm not really open to boulding a character into more than 3 classes. We're kind of stretching the RP aspect of the character pretty thin at that point.

Using the Paladin class as the chasis for the build there are a few options:

warlock dip (w/sorc)
bard (not dip)
cleric dip (w/sorc)
straight paladin

The main benefit of adding Sorc levels to the build is for the metamagic "Extend spell" which basically guarantees that a single casting of Aura of Vitality will restore our comrades to full health. Add in a level of Life cleric to actually guarantee that single casting of AoV will always restore our comrades back to full health. This build best fulfills requirement 4, and exceeds what we need for the requirement by a good margin. (2d6+5 healing per round for 20 rounds == 240 HP from a single casting). This build can either use Sorc 2 or Life Cleric 1 to achieve an acceptable level of healing effectiveness, both of them seems to be much more than we need.

For a one level dip in cleric we get a lot of bang for our buck: +5 to every heal on AoV, 3 cantrips, the 1st level cleric spell list, and a level of full casting.

vs a three level dip in sorc where we get two kinds of metamagic (one of which is extend spell), 4 cantrips, 4 spells known of up to 2nd level, and 3 levels of full casting.

I think we get a lot more versatility out of the sorc dip, which may help us to meet requirement 3.2, but it also requires 3 levels. I think it may be better to go for the one level dip in cleric which still fulfills requirement 4, while allowing us to take levels of bard or some other class to make up the difference in combat support.

The straight Paladin option is really tempting, but probably not doable with requirement 1: we need a way to get Shillelagh on the build or find some other use for action each round (which seems a waste since, as a Paladin, we get two attacks with a single action).

Similarly, a Warlock 3 dip gives us 2 level 2 spell slots per short rest, 1 cantrip and EB known, 4 spells known, Agonizing Blast and Repelling blast (for damage and meeting 3.2), our patron feature, an additional 2 cantrips from any class, and a nifty ritual casting spellbook (Pact of the Tome).

Among the available patrons: Fiend could be alright, but we're not optimizing for damage, so we won't get as much mileage out of it as we could. Fey would be decent for the Charm/Frighten (meets req 3.2 pretty nicely). Undying Light is probably best for the bonus to radiant damage which we will deal with every smite (and once per round if we go to Paladin 9). There's really almost no value added at all from the Great Old One or the Undying patrons.

The biggest weakness of the warlock dip is the spell selection. While fiend pact and Armor of Agathys are great for req 2 and they don't require concentration, they don't help much with the rest of the requirements.

At level 2 spells it gets only slightly better. Earthbind is a very niche, but potentially very useful spell. Darkness is great if your party can take advantage of it. Hold person is pretty good, but it's also on just about every spell list (including the Paladin's) already, so there's no reason to pick it up as a warlock. Misty Step is good. Ray of Enfeeblement is niche, but could be decent.

It seems that almost every Warlock spell offers only limited/niche control or support and we're giving up 3 levels that could be full casting levels for the warlock dip. In the end, I suspect we'd end up using our warlock spell slots mostly to fuel smites and spells from our other class(es) anyway.

It looks like we get a bit of utility, a nice amount of tankiness, and some decent battlefield control via repelling blast and Fey Presence, and some pretty good damage options. It's a lot of benefit for those 3 levels, but is a bit lighter on control and healing than the other options while also giving up 3 levels of casting.

Lastly, there's the bard MC. 3 levels of a bard MC nets us Cutting Words, Song of rest, Bardic Inspiration, Jack of All Trades, 2 expertise, 4 proficiencies, 3 levels of full casting, 2 cantrips, and 6 spells known of up to 2nd level. The spell selection of the bard offers mostly out of combat utility spells, but also several very nice in combat control spells from Warding Wind to Hold Person, to Phantasmal Force, Crown of Madness, Blindness/Deafness, Dissonant Whispers, etc...

The benefit of the bard dip is a decent amount of combat control, a boost to our healing, and a general boost to a bunch of non-combat stuff (though double prof in Athletics is pretty nice if we decide to grapple). In short, the bard is not the best at meeting any of our requirements (except, perhaps control), but it is decent at meeting all of them.

The greatest downside to the bard MC, is that we really need 6 levels to get Shillelagh and some other 3rd level (which will probably be AoV) making this build come together at the late, late level of 12.

It looks like if we're in it for the long haul, going Oathbreaker 9, Bard 11 would be pretty good. It would net some decent spellcasting, lots of utility,HP, and decent amount of damage. But it comes online at the late level of 13, way too late for my taste.

As a variant on that idea, we could go Paladin 2/Bard6/Paladin X, which gets us a lot of battlefield control and healing pretty quickly while we for our damage to catch up at level 13 when we gain Aura of Hate. This one should be pretty darn playable all the way through and level of Life Cleric wouldn't really hurt.

We may be able to fulfill our requirements by going Paladin 2/Life Cleric 1/Warlock 3/Paladin X. The downside being that we don't get a max stat until 12th level, which kind of defeats the point of being SAD.

We could go for Paladin 8/Warlock 3/Paladin X, where we have a max stat at level 8, but no Shillelagh till 11. Or, better yet, go Paladin 2/Warlock3/Paladin x, giving us Shillelagh at level 5, and a max stat at level 11.

In short, it seems like there's no way to really go wrong with this build. At the end of the day it seems the bard MC does the best job fulfilling the requirements, but at the cost of having the weakest DPR of all the available options, and taking the most time to really come into its own.

At the other extreme, the 3 level Warlock dip has much lower healing, utility, and control, but a high degree of tankiness more endurance thanks to short rest spell slots, and much higher DPR. It is also viable at all levels, but allows the character to contribute more on the damage side of things.

For me, it looks like there's a tipping point at 12th level: if you're going to be playing the long game and starting 12 level or higher, or if you're comfortable with your Paladin having low DPR and focusing almost exclusively on combat support at low levels, then Bard seems to be the way to go.

If you're starting before 12th level, and you want more DPR at the cost of control and delaying Aura of Vitality, then the Warlock 3 dip is probably what you're after.

With either build, if you have a level to spare for Life cleric, it's probably worth it.

------------
Summary

The features of the core build that I, personally, like:

+5 to all saves for you and your allies, an immense boon to party durability
Shillelagh + Aura of hate = +2xCHA added to all melee attacks, roughly equivalent to 3d6 extra damage on every attack once our stats are maxed
Aura of Vitality - 20d6 healing in a single minute
High AC and HP
Smites when we need them to help compensate for our DPR

With a Life cleric 1 dip our healing gets better and we extend our spell list slightly .

With a Warlock 3 dip, we get Shillelagh sooner, Armor of Agathys, EB+AB, and Repelling blast for a decent contribution to DPR, tankiness, DPR, and Control, respectively .

With a Bard MC, we get decent spellcasting, a lot of control spells, some healing, Shillelagh (eventually), and some really nice out of combat features (or phenomenal in-combat features if we are going to grapple).

On that note, are there any spells the bard or Paladin can grab to make grappling a better option? It seems that even without Shillelagh , being able to manually lock down opponents by grapping with expertise in gapple could be pretty useful. Are there any damage aura type spells that would help with that?

[EDIT]
For races, vHuman is still probably the best to pick up the Inspiring Leader feat (ty Grod). But really any race with any amount of CHA bonus will do. I like Aasimar for the flavor, but they are definitely not the best choice.

For feats, it's hard to beat Inspiring Leader as it will never not be useful and it can be used to buff our undead in addition to our party members. If you decide to go another route and optimize for damage, there's always PAM and GWM, and we can get a bit or control with Sentinel and Shield Mastery.

Biggstick

2016-08-18, 01:30 PM

On that note, are there any spells the bard or Paladin can grab to make grappling a better option? It seems that even without Shillelagh , being able to manually lock down opponents by grapping with expertise in gapple could be pretty useful. Are there any damage aura type spells that would help with that?

Bard's get access to the level 2 Enhance Ability spell. It's concentration based, lasts for an hour, takes an action to cast, and can provide a ton of choice benefits. The one you'd be looking for would be, "Bull's Strength," which provides advantage on Strength checks, and your carrying capacity doubles.

[This next bit doesn't really pertain to your question, but might provide a bit more fun in game if you have an ally with the spell]
If grappling is something you're looking at, an ally with the Enlarge spell (or if you decided to go Sorc, you could cast it on yourself) could cast it on you, make you one size larger, and have advantage on Strength checks. You'd also be able to grapple things that are actually one size larger then Large (I can't recall what size it is after large), and you wouldn't suffer disadvantage on the grapple either. If you're playing a character that's a bit heavier, your weight gets multiplied by 8 (200 pound PC all of a sudden weighs 1600 pounds). Imagine the sort of things you can do swinging around that sort of weight.

WereRabbitz

2016-08-18, 01:39 PM

Well Grappling is Athletics which is STR and not affected by Shillelagh.

I still stand behind a Pure Paladin filling the Role well

Half Elf bonus: +2 Cha +1 str +1con

A very good start to building a decent paladin and since your not going for spell damage really you don't have to have 20 CHA 18 would be just fine.

A good Grappler Set is a Rogue/Bard dip for Expertise on Athletics, but that is helped by having a good str score. Basically the Expertise will allow you to get the drop on someone who isn't str based, but if you want to grappler that fighter or barbarian to the ground your going to need a bigger edge like a good str score.

Keep in mind that Shillelagh requires a non magical weapon.

This means it's night at level 1-5 when you dont' have magical weapons but at higher levels you have to pick between a +3 weapon and using a +1 through Shillelagh.

Base stats with Half elf:

Str: 15 +1 = 16
Dex: 12
Con:13 +1 = 14
Int: 8
Wis: 10
Cha: 14 +2 = 16

Not bad stats at level 1 since unlike 3.5 you don't need to have massive stats to be effective in 5e.

NNescio

2016-08-18, 01:47 PM

Keep in mind that Shillelagh requires a non magical weapon.

This means it's night at level 1-5 when you dont' have magical weapons but at higher levels you have to pick between a +3 weapon and using a +1 through Shillelagh.

No, Shillelagh doesn't have that restriction. In fact the line "The weapon also becomes magical, if it isn’t already." outright implies that it can be cast on a magical weapon (club/quarterstaff).

Shillelagh also doesn't turn the weapon into a +1. It's just considered magical (which is useful for bypassing most resistance to physical damage, as well as preventing the staff/club from being damaged by corroded by Black Puddings).

WereRabbitz

2016-08-18, 02:08 PM

No, Shillelagh doesn't have that restriction. In fact the line "The weapon also becomes magical, if it isn’t already." outright implies that it can be cast on a magical weapon (club/quarterstaff).

Shillelagh also doesn't turn the weapon into a +1. It's just considered magical (which is useful for bypassing most resistance to physical damage, as well as preventing the staff/club from being damaged by corroded by Black Puddings).

Ahh ok i was using a 3.5 reference from DNDWiki that was my mistake looking at the wrong one.

Citan

2016-08-18, 05:57 PM

Equipped with a better understanding of the rules and lot of really good advice from this thread, I'm taking a second swing at this.

Since I have received so much excellent advice, there's a plethora (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mTUmczVdik) of options for this build. I've decided to narrow down the goals of the build and go from there. The build requirements are:

1. Very SAD - Single attribute dependent, in this case CHA is our target.

2. Tanking - Build must be able to stay up in combat on the front lines.

3. Combat support - The build must help the party perform better in combat, this includes:

3.1 - Keep the party up in combat - Bring people up when they go down, help them pass their saves, give temp HP, provide wards, etc...

3.2 - Control the battlefield - Help optimize the party DPR and positioning while shutting down enemy movement and actions, and cure status effects on party members.

4. Healing - Keep the party at full HP and, hopefully, nearly full HD between combats.

Those are the requirements for the build. While it's always better to have more DPR rather than less, for this build we are willing to yield DPR to any of the 4 requirements.

In short, it seems like there's no way to really go wrong with this build. At the end of the day it seems the bard MC does the best job fulfilling the requirements, but at the cost of having the weakest DPR of all the available options, and taking the most time to really come into its own.

At the other extreme, the 3 level Warlock dip has much lower healing, utility, and control, but a high degree of tankiness more endurance thanks to short rest spell slots, and much higher DPR. It is also viable at all levels, but allows the character to contribute more on the damage side of things.

For me, it looks like there's a tipping point at 12th level: if you're going to be playing the long game and starting 12 level or higher, or if you're comfortable with your Paladin having low DPR and focusing almost exclusively on combat support at low levels, then Bard seems to be the way to go.

If you're starting before 12th level, and you want more DPR at the cost of control and delaying Aura of Vitality, then the Warlock 3 dip is probably what you're after.

With either build, if you have a level to spare for Life cleric, it's probably worth it.

------------
Summary

The features of the core build that I, personally, like:

+5 to all saves for you and your allies, an immense boon to party durability
Shillelagh + Aura of hate = +2xCHA added to all melee attacks, roughly equivalent to 3d6 extra damage on every attack once our stats are maxed
Aura of Vitality - 20d6 healing in a single minute
High AC and HP
Smites when we need them to help compensate for our DPR

Hey, nice work! I think you made a very good analysis of the options (although you're wrong about Undying Light +CHA affecting Divine Smite bonus damage: it doesn't because this damage does not result from you casting a spell).

Although there is something I don't understand... On one way you say...
"Among the available patrons: Fiend could be alright, but we're not optimizing for damage, so we won't get as much mileage out of it as we could."
And in the features you really want to get, there is Aura of Hate to stack on damage.
Is there a misunderstanding from my part?

Also, in the end as you noticed yourself, getting Shillelagh will be a pain in the *** any way you go at it if you want it to be CHA.
So, I'd suggest you, very simply, just put it out of the equation (aka = decide of your build as if Shillelagh is just the icing on the cake). It will help you decide what is the priority for you to play I think.

Now, to bounce back on some of the things you said:
Paladin 9 / Bard 11 (or reverse) is very nice: I tend to like this one more than the opposite becaue you get more spells (including lvl 5 Magic Secrets which is great by all means *Circle of Power*) and Expertise, but the opposite is not bad though (extra 1d8 radiant, and Aura of Courage is often undervalued ;)).

If you really want to take Aura of Hate, then I'd rather suggest the (Undying Light) Warlock 3+ / Draconic Sorcerer 6 (fire) / Paladin 9+ (or put one level of Life Cleric or Bard 1 somewhere for Healing Words and other good spells). It's basically the best suited, although you do lose the Expertise and Bardic Inspiration, and lvl3 Magic Secrets.

Start as I suggested before until you are Warlock 3 / Paladin 6. Now either go Sorcerer or first Paladin 9 for the 3rd level spells. Then finish the other class. Either way, I suggest you take at least 3 levels of Sorcerer ASAP to get Metamagic. You can keep the rest of Sorcerer as a capstone.

All the critics you said about the previously suggested build Warlock/Pally hold true, so if you weren't ok with it you probably won't like this build (unless you find a more suited to build it though ;)).

Although you will be only a third-caster (in terms of spells known) you will still have many things for you.
- All Paladin spells up to 3rd (Aura of Vitality, Elemental Weapon, Crusader's Mantle, Revivify... Basically 10 great spells).
- The Warlock goodies you listed before.
- Sorcerer spells, among a selection of buffs/debuffs that could compete with Bard for the "best list" title (Blindness, Enhance Ability particularly would greatly benefit from Warlock slots, especially since Blindness is non-concentration o/. Also Fly, Slow or Haste at 3rd level. Slow is very nasty: only 2 affected would make it worth, so up to 6...)
- Sorcerer Metamagic (if you never take a one-level dip or Bard/Cleric nor take Magic Initiate, take Quicken. Otherwise, as you wish between Quicken, Twin, Extend, Subtle. All have their uses).
- Weapon cantrips? (I still don't know, or I missed the bit if you told us).
- CHA modifier for attack roll and damage roll, +CHA to damage (Hate), +CHA on any radiant spell (smite spell, Sacred Flame), +2xCHA on fire spells (GreenFlameBlade, Firebolt, Searing Smite, Burning Hands, Chromatic Orb, Scorching Ray, Fireball...). Note that if your DM is particularly lenient, he could accept to consider that these bonus apply on the casting of Elemental Weapon (it's probably not RAW or RAI though, so consider it a gracious houserule).

Thematically, you could see yourself as a broken Paladin whose life and soul are consumed by the flames of hate. ^^
Support will come from a few Sorcerer spell, Paladin spells and any rituals you could learn as a Warlock, along with Twin metamagic should you choose it.
Tanking will come from Paladin defensive features and Haste/Blink/Shield of Faith/Armor of Agathys.
Control will come from Warlock (Repelling Blast), Paladin (don't underrate Command and Compelled Duel, which you can Twin ;)), Sorcerer (Blindness, Slow, Hold Person, Levitate, Reduce).
Damage comes from your weapon cantrips (if allowed) or basic attacks, ranged cantrips, lvl 1 fire smite spell (which deal average damage equal to a 4th level cast ^^) or radiant spell ("3rd level" average damage), with the ability to smite when necessary. ;)

Otherwise, if you are not actually bent on damage (at least more than other roles), I'd rather suggest Devotion Oath. It will help you much earlier, so while you will deal less damage, you will deal damage much more consistantly, so it will be easier for you to manage 6/9/12 levels without Shillelagh. In fact, it could also be great thematically because you could arrange with your DM to actually roleplay the events that make you lose faith to the point of becoming an evil-doer (thus becoming an Oathbreaker).
It also works very well whether you multiclass with a Bard (maybe a tragedy occured during your carreer) or with a Warlock (maybe you made a pact that derailed, or after you became an Oathbreaker, you don't care at all to sell your soul). ;)

Most importantly, don't burn out your brain while trying to make the "best". As you said yourself, there is very little risk to go wrong since all the classes in presence are great, either as single-class or in a mix. ;) Just go with what you think will provide the more fun to you, and just take note of what you actually do (or what the party actually expects you to do) as you play to adjust your career plan as you go.
Have fun!

Finlam

2016-08-18, 07:04 PM

@Citan

In reference to the damage, aura of hate and shillelagh are literally the only damage optimizations of the build and even then our damage output will pale in comparison to the blasters and rogues of the party, making it unlikely that we can get the requisite last hit we need to take advantage of the temp hp.

I like your build a lot, but it's definitely got a damage focus. I think I'd prefer to have a bit more healing and support.

Mandragola

2016-08-19, 07:07 AM

What aura are you talking about? The "signature move" of the Paladin is the Aura of Protection, and it most definitely keys off of Charisma. And just because a weapon doesn't have a sharp pointy end to it doesn't make it a rubbish weapon.

Another point I'd bring up is the wasting ASI's. In all honesty, you're only using 3 ASI's (PAM, 2x +2 Cha) for the build, even less if you start human.
I'm talking about aura of vitality, the spell. It doesn't rely on charisma. The build is designed in part around maximising AoV, and I as just pointing out that there's no need for going SAD charisma to do that.

A strength-based paladin's AoV is exactly as good as a Cha-bases paladin's. But a strength-based paladin has no problem with waiting for shillelagh, delaying extra attack or anything else. He gets to use weapons other than clubs and staves and wear any kind of armour. It works from lvl 1-20. The cha guy does add more to the party's saves.

As an intellectual exercise this is fine. I don't think it's a character I'd like to play though, or at least not from lvl 1.

Finlam

2016-08-19, 09:14 AM

I'm talking about aura of vitality, the spell. It doesn't rely on charisma. The build is designed in part around maximising AoV, and I as just pointing out that there's no need for going SAD charisma to do that.

I think this is a misunderstanding. The goal isn't to maximize AoV, the goal is to keep the party at full HP or pretty close to it in between combats. This build has a lot of tools to make that happen with AoV being the most notable, but it also has lay on hands, cure spells and Song of Rest.

We don't need to maximize AoV or even to maximize healing, we just to clear our minimum threshold for keeping the party going at full resources. A target of about ~100 HP per short rest around level 10 should be sufficient. More than that is nice, but not really necessary.

Of course, if you don't feel that's adequate, a single level of Life Cleric will boost the healing up way above the minimum threshold.

On the topic of STR vs CHA:
There's also nothing stopping us from making STR our secondary attribute and being content with a +3 to hit until Shillelagh comes online. Personally, I'd prefer to hold out and fill a support role while making STR my tertiary stat behind CON, but there's no reason at all that you can't go the other way. The primary benefit of boosting CHA is that we provide better combat support through +CHA to ST, and we have a high spell save DC, making our battlefield control significantly more effective than STR based paladin.

[EDIT]
The goal of the build is to satisfy all of the 4 requirements:

1. Very SAD - Single attribute dependent, in this case CHA is our target.

2. Tanking - Build must be able to stay up in combat on the front lines.

3. Combat support - The build must help the party perform better in combat, this includes:
3.1 - Keep the party up in combat - Bring people up when they go down, help them pass their saves, give temp HP, provide wards, etc...

3.2 - Control the battlefield - Help optimize the party DPR and positioning while shutting down enemy movement and actions, and cure status effects on party members.

4. Healing - Keep the party at full HP and, hopefully, nearly full HD between combats.
1. Is a constraint that I am imposing because I want to test how feasible it is.

2. Is an absolute must because I will be deploying the build in a party that is in desperate need of tank. The benefit of choosing CHA and then CON is that we can have a very high HP without loosing any effectiveness for our combat support. If we instead choose STR over CON or CHA, we are sacrificing either combat support or tankiness in exchange for damage. Needless to say, that does not fit with the goals of the build.

3. Is a must because the build needs to adequately fill the role of battelfield control and support. This is again a constraint of the party in which the build will be deployed, which has woefully little battefield control and too many glass cannons. The paladin and Bard spell lists have most of the best control spells in the game, but you can squeeze out a minimally acceptable amount of control from paladin/warlock if you need to. Prioritizing CHA directly increases our ability to control the flow of battle through spells, while CON allows us to keep passing those saves to maintain concentration (and just stay conscious). We can reasonably expect a +8 to CON saves without proficiency in CON. Again, choosing STR over CHA or CON is a significant reduction in our battlefield control ability.

4. This is a requirement because the party into which the build will be deployed has no dedicated healer. We don't need to be the best healer ever, we just need to be good enough. Stat choice is almost entirely irrelevant here, and a one level dip into Life Cleric will guarantee that we fill this role acceptably.

This build meets all 4 requirements quite nicely, and has significant DPR even tough it doesn't compete for the most DPR in the party.

Specter

2016-08-19, 09:43 AM

Finlam

2016-08-19, 10:17 AM

Mandragola

2016-08-19, 10:24 AM

I've never enjoyed Aura of Vitality because it takes an action to come online. Had it been like Expeditious Retreat (bonus action casting and maintaining), it would have been much better. For bonus action healing that works, take Life Cleric 1; with Healing Word, you'll be healing 1D4+3+Wisdom, which is roughly equivalent, but without wasting your action AND without concentration.

Healing word is good in combat. This is about out of combat healing. An extended aura of vitality can heal a hell of a lot - albeit in a situation where the party isn't particularly threatened.

For what it's worth, I think this is of interest to all paladin players. The class slightly runs out of cool stuff after level 11, when you get improved divine smite. Dipping into Sorceror and, if you've got the wisdom, cleric, does substantially upgrade your healing abilities.

My own paladin is actually level 11 right now. He's a vengeance paladin who specialises in greatsword attacks. It's interesting to consider switching to Sorceror. Quicken and extend spell could both do cool things for him - especially quickened haste. If nothing else I'd get ranged cantrips! His wisdom is only 12, so that rules out cleric unless I put an ASI towards it.

Degwerks

2016-08-19, 11:40 AM

I've spent too much time reading and brainstorming the OP's concept lol. I'd just go with Paladin Oathbreaker 7-Draconic Fire Sorcerer 6-Lore Bard 6-Undying Light Warlock 1.
This will give you 3rd level spells known, Shillelagh & Aura of Vitality too, plus a free Sacred Flame cantrip, Charisma on Shillelagh attack & dmg, Cha on melee from Oathbreaker, Cha on Fire & Radiant dmg, Cha again on Fire dmg, Expertise & all those Bard goodies, Extend & Twin spell metamagic, Able to refresh your Sorcery points on Short rests with 2 Warlock slots while also helping heal with Song of Rest. Plus 2 Warlock spells like Armor of Agathys & Hellish Rebuke. 10 Cantrips to choose as well. With taking GreenFlame Blade your attacks with it will be 1d8 +20 with Shillelagh once you max Charisma out. Plus having 8th level slots to fuel spells and Smite attacks & a 40hp Armor of Agathys.

You could also just maximize the heals more by dropping Draconic Sorcerer down to level 5 and take Life Cleric 1. Giving you another 3 cantrips. You'll drop that Fire damage down a bit but still you're a considerable damage dealer regardless.

Finlam

2016-08-19, 01:27 PM

With taking GreenFlame Blade your attacks with it will be 1d8 +20 with Shillelagh once you max Charisma out.

I like that =)

It's a bit off topic, but it's in the same vein of a SAD character design:

I wonder how far CHA stacking can be taken. Getting 4xCHA on a single cantrip is pretty nice. Unfortunately, I can't see a way to take it farther...

Anyone have some good ideas on ability stacking for damage? Can anyone beat x4 STAT on a cantrip attack? There is EB, but that really x1 STAT on four separate attacks, rather than x4 on one attack.

Degwerks

2016-08-20, 02:56 PM

You could also go Oathbreaker 11/draconic fire 6/Undying Light tome pact 3. You lose a lot of utility by dropping lore bard though. What you gain is more hps, 3rd lvl slots from warlock resets on short rests to use aura of vitality AND each shillelagh attack does 1d8+1d8 radiant +20 + greenflame blade dice.

Arcana cleric 8/druid 1/draconic fire 6/udying light warlock1/+ whatever 4, gives Cha x2 + wisdom x2 on greenflame blade attacks & +15 dmg on firebolts. If you choose those 2 cantrips at arcana cleric 1.