Unique Optimization: Theurge Wizard - Tempest Domain

[jaappleton]

The Theurge was released in August's article of Unearthed Arcana, and can be found here: http://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/UA%20Non-Divine%20Faithful%20SFG.pdf

Now, it's an arcane tradition for Wizards that borrows on a Cleric's domain.

For this exercise, we'll utilize the Tempest domain. This lets us maximize Lightning Bolt, Shatter, Call Lightning, Chain Lightning, Chromatic Orb, etc. twice per long rest beginning at level 6.

The purpose of this build is to do one thing: Blow **** up pretty quickly and effectively. And it'll certainly do that. However, I'm trying to see EVERYTHING that it can do.

Call it an exercise in exploitation. I've no doubt my DM would literally throw something at me for even presenting this, but I'm curious as to just how far we can push this caster. The Theurge is perhaps the most unbalanced thing I've personally seen proposed for 5E, but as I said, this should be a fun exercise.



Let's start at level 10 and list everything it gets.

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Arcane Recovery

Channel Arcana - Twice per short rest
Destructive Wrath - Maximize the damage roll of a thunder or lightning spell
Divine Arcana - Your next spell attack roll or spell DC is increased by 2

Wrath of the Storm - As a reaction when you're attacked by a creature within 5ft of you that you can see, you can deal 2d8 Lightning damage on a failed Dex save or 1/2 on a successful save. You can do this a number of times equal to your Intelligence modifier

Thunderbolt Strike - When you deal Lightning damage to a creature Large or smaller, you can push it 10ft

-------

At 14th level, you actually get your domains Capstone feature. Yes, you get it 3 levels earlier than real Clerics.

Plus Wizard spells, and if you place all the spells of your chosen Cleric domain into your spellbook, you can start copying down normal Cleric spells. This essentially means you can access the entire Wizard and Cleric spell list, as I read it.

All of this as a single class character, with the Wizard capstones in tact.

Note: Aside from Tempest, this should also be excellent on a Light Domain Theurge, especially at higher levels with Sunbeam + Corona of Light.


Now, my table has done something unique and we've established a standard ability score set. This means racial ability score bonuses are thrown out, but you keep other racial abilities (so you'd keep Gnome Cunning, but disregard its ability score bonuses).

In any order: 20, 18, 16, 14, 10, 8 AND starting with one Feat.

So, with any race, and that stat array, at level 10 full Wizard Theurge, I ask GITP:

What's the farthest this can be pushed? What race would benefit this the most? What're some excellent spell combinations? Best use of Concentration?

Spamming maximized Lightning Bolts while under Greater Invisibility comes to mind, and perhaps being a Goliath for Stone's Endurance to help maintain Concentration. Though Mountain Dwarf for Light & Medium armor proficiency would be good and eliminate the need for Mage Armor.

[Falcon X]

The biggest misunderstanding with the theurge wizard is that you get a ton of cleric spells.
You can only get one per level, from your domain list, and it has to be one of the ones you self-research (no finding these in the world).
You eventually get access to use this on any cleric spell, but not until Level 11, and even then you have to use up one of your level's spell picks.

It makes levels 11-15 pretty interesting, but beyond that, not a major difference from any other tradition.
1-10 is comparable to most wizard traditions except they can spend valuable spell picks on a limited domain list.
My only thought is towards shenanigans between spells that nobody thought could ever be used together.

[jaappleton]

The biggest misunderstanding with the theurge wizard is that you get a ton of cleric spells.
You can only get one per level, and it has to be one of the ones you self-research (no finding these in the world).
You eventually get access to use this on any cleric spell, but not until Level 11, and even then you have to use up one of your level's spell picks.

It makes levels 11-15 pretty interesting, but beyond that, not a major difference from any other tradition.
My only thought is towards shenanigans between spells that nobody thought could ever be used together.

Upon reading it again, and seeing how often you can add Cleric spells to your Wizard book...

I do believe you are correct, good sir.

[Falcon X]

Upon reading it again, and seeing how often you can add Cleric spells to your Wizard book...

I do believe you are correct, good sir.
Still nothing to scoff at though, and of the higher of the Wizard traditions. Especially if you are in that nice 10-15 range.
What we REALLY need to do here today is shenanigans :)
Spell combos that aught not be. (I'll get out my spell books.)

[jaappleton]

I'm thinking Mountain Dwarf may be best for the race. Good armor proficiencies, with a 14 Dex puts me at 16 AC in medium armor. Shield boosts it to 21 when necessary.

What about the feat?

If I went with Light Armor or Mage Armor instead, I could go 18 Dex for 16 or 17 AC and +4 Initiative. Alert brings that to +9. The sooner I get my turn, the sooner I could blast max Lightning Bolt at 5th level for 60 damage. Dead enemies can't hurt.

Or Warcaster, that's always useful.

[SharkForce]

minor correction: some domains can start picking cleric spells of their choice at level 10 (so long as at least one of the domain spells is from the wizard list, you can pick it with your normal spells at level-up or from a scroll or other wizard at level 9, which means you'd know all your domain spells one level early).

[NNescio]

Bear in mind that strictly speaking, any Cleric spell you poach (domain or otherwise) count as Cleric spells (the text explicitly calls them out as Cleric spells), and are based on Wisdom by default.

(Let us ignore Mearls' RAI for this, as it is a well-needed balance consideration. Theurges back in 3.5e needed two spellcasting stats anyway.)

This can be confusing for spells that are belong to both the Cleric (including Domain Spells) and Wizard list, especially when considering whether a Wizard spell of the same qualifies for fulfilling the requirement of filling out all the domain spells needed to pick up non-domain Cleric spells.

[jaappleton]

Bear in mind that strictly speaking, any Cleric spell you poach (domain or otherwise) count as Cleric spells (the text explicitly calls them out as Cleric spells), and are based on Wisdom by default.

(Let us ignore Mearls' RAI for this, as it is a well-needed balance consideration. Theurges back in 3.5e needed two spellcasting stats anyway.)

This can be confusing for spells that are belong to both the Cleric (including Domain Spells) and Wizard list, especially when considering whether a Wizard spell of the same qualifies for fulfilling the requirement of filling out all the domain spells needed to pick up non-domain Cleric spells.

When asked via Twitter, Mearls confirmed the Cleric spells that the Theurge can poach do count as Wizard spells. All Intelligence based.

It isn't well worded in the UA article, that's very true. But they do count as Wizard spells.

[NNescio]

When asked via Twitter, Mearls confirmed the Cleric spells that the Theurge can poach do count as Wizard spells. All Intelligence based.

It isn't well worded in the UA article, that's very true. But they do count as Wizard spells.

Like I said, RAW they don't, despite Mearls' qualification on RAI. I'm more inclined to stick to pure RAW if we're going to abuse this. Live by the RAW, die by the RAW, as they say when optimizing.

In any case, even if we follow Mearls, Wrath of the Storm is still keyed to Wis, not Int, since his Twitter comment was only in response to spells, and Arcane Acolyte does not make allowances for rekeying it to Int unlike Channel Arcana.

Same goes for effects that are keyed to Cleric level (of which the Theurge has none). Makes Preserve Life completely useless (again, Channel Arcana keys the Save DC to Int, but makes no allowances for other things like number of uses that are keyed either to Wis mod or Cleric level).


Still nothing to scoff at though, and of the higher of the Wizard traditions. Especially if you are in that nice 10-15 range.
What we REALLY need to do here today is shenanigans :)
Spell combos that aught not be. (I'll get out my spell books.)

Revivify keyed to Contingency: When I die (with an intact corpse)

Arcana Cleric also gets to pull off this combo, but much later at Level 17.

[jaappleton]

Does anything prevent me from using both uses of Divine Arcana on one spell?

Divine Arcana to increase the DC of Lightning Bolt, and Destructive Wrath on its damage roll? Does anything prevent that?

[NNescio]

Does anything prevent me from using both uses of Divine Arcana on one spell?

Divine Arcana to increase the DC of Lightning Bolt, and Destructive Wrath on its damage roll? Does anything prevent that?

Nope, you're free to do that. Destructive Wrath doesn't take any actions after all.

[SharkForce]

Like I said, RAW they don't, despite Mearls' qualification on RAI. I'm more inclined to stick to pure RAW if we're going to abuse this. Live by the RAW, die by the RAW, as they say when optimizing.

In any case, even if we follow Mearls, Wrath of the Storm is still keyed to Wis, not Int, since his Twitter comment was only in response to spells, and Arcane Acolyte does not make allowances for rekeying it to Int unlike Channel Arcana.

Same goes for effects that are keyed to Cleric level (of which the Theurge has none). Makes Preserve Life completely useless (again, Channel Arcana keys the Save DC to Int, but makes no allowances for other things like number of uses that are keyed either to Wis mod or Cleric level).



Revivify keyed to Contingency: When I die (with an intact corpse)

Arcana Cleric also gets to pull off this combo, but much later at Level 17.

sticking to pure RAW doesn't mean the spells are cast with wisdom. it means the wizard cannot cast the spells at all (wizards get the ability to cast wizard spells, not cleric spells), or even prepare them, and also has no attribute linked to the spells whatsoever even if they could cast them. cleric spells don't have a casting attribute, CLERICS have a casting attribute that clerics use for casting cleric spells, which consist of any spells that cleric gets from their cleric class levels.

pure RAW leads to idiotic nonsense in this case, and should be ignored.

[NNescio]

sticking to pure RAW doesn't mean the spells are cast with wisdom. it means the wizard cannot cast the spells at all (wizards get the ability to cast wizard spells, not cleric spells), or even prepare them, and also has no attribute linked to the spells whatsoever even if they could cast them. cleric spells don't have a casting attribute, CLERICS have a casting attribute that clerics use for casting cleric spells, which consist of any spells that cleric gets from their cleric class levels.

pure RAW leads to idiotic nonsense in this case, and should be ignored.

Hmm, yeah, didn't consider that. You're quite right then. Sticking to RAW all the way means the Wizard couldn't prepare any of the Cleric spells at all. This is like "3.5e Monks not proficient with unarmed strikes by RAW"-level of broken.

Other features that are keyed to Cleric level or Wisdom modifier (except Channel Divinity saves, which are rekeyed to Int under the Channel Arcana entry) don't work either. Heck, even Arcane High Priest does nothing for an Arcana-domain Theurge. Man, the only class feature that works without hiccups is Channel Arcana.

At this point, well, I guess how this class works can only be left to "whatever you work out with your DM". Mearls' RAI is a good starting point then.

Man, Mearls really dropped the ball with July's UA article, and now this poorly written class archetype (which is broken in both senses of the word, as Channel Arcana is too damned good) in August, sheesh...

[jaappleton]

sticking to pure RAW doesn't mean the spells are cast with wisdom. it means the wizard cannot cast the spells at all (wizards get the ability to cast wizard spells, not cleric spells), or even prepare them, and also has no attribute linked to the spells whatsoever even if they could cast them. cleric spells don't have a casting attribute, CLERICS have a casting attribute that clerics use for casting cleric spells, which consist of any spells that cleric gets from their cleric class levels.

pure RAW leads to idiotic nonsense in this case, and should be ignored.

Emphasis mine

And it sums up RAW for the Theurge perfectly.