Pathfinder Race Creation: Is there anything better for it?

[inuyasha]

Let me begin this by saying, I love Pathfinder, I love the system, I love homebrewing for it, and I love experimenting with the race creator. That being said, the race creator definitely has some flaws with how valuable certain traits are in regards to some others. Does anyone have a better/different resource that they use for the creation of races in Pathfinder that they would recommend?

[CharonsHelper]

While it could no doubt be tweaked, it's impossible to make a perfectly balanced race creator due to it not taking into account the value of combining various abilities to have the sum of the whole being greater... (and if you did, then they'd be sub-par separately)

In the end, you have to look at the end result and only then ballpark if it's actually balanced with the core races. It's designed as a DM tool, not another character aspect to optimize.

[inuyasha]

While it could no doubt be tweaked, it's impossible to make a perfectly balanced race creator due to it not taking into account the value of combining various abilities to have the sum of the whole being greater... (and if you did, then they'd be sub-par separately)

In the end, you have to look at the end result and only then ballpark if it's actually balanced with the core races. It's designed as a DM tool, not another character aspect to optimize.

You do make a pretty good point. I am looking at this from the perspective of a DM, not a player, so I guess it makes sense that it's mostly just a judgement call thing.

[Stegyre]

I, too, love the concept of race design, even if there are things I dislike about PF's implementation. I have bookmarked this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?133269-3-5-Generic-Race-2-0) in the homebrew forum, which was an effort by Baron Corm (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?5450-Baron-Corm), who sadly does not seem to be around anymore.

I am curious as to what others think are some of the imbalancing synergies in the PF system, to keep in mind as I attempt my own refinements.

[Krazzman]

Let me begin this by saying, I love Pathfinder, I love the system, I love homebrewing for it, and I love experimenting with the race creator. That being said, the race creator definitely has some flaws with how valuable certain traits are in regards to some others. Does anyone have a better/different resource that they use for the creation of races in Pathfinder that they would recommend?

We are using the one in Advanced Races for solo campaigns to "significantly" enhance the character. It works for the intend we have with it.
There are some abilities that are really underwhelming (Skill bonuses) for their point costs. There are some that can replace others AND are awesome all around (at will spell like ability).

To show the weirdness of it:
The current character we run solo through Hell's vengeance is a "Dhampir". As one at will spell like ability she took a Flight spell. It was 6 race points and it brings loads of fluff
Your goal in the first one is to basically stop the "Angel Knight" from inciting rebellion in Longacre... in Part 2 she now runs around as the "Black Angel Knight" with her shadowy Wings and black full plate.
Compare that (6 points, 60 feet with good maneuverbility) with Flight (4 points, 40 feet with clumsy, pay +2 for +10ft and +1 maneuverbility).

Your best bet would be to just toss all races as they are now and build a new racial creation framework to play with.

[Calthropstu]

Pencil
Paper
Brain

Those make the best everything in pathfinder.

[upho]

In the end, you have to look at the end result and only then ballpark if it's actually balanced with the core races.This. Although I would add that one should be careful not to get stuck staring myopically at racial traits when making any comparisons to core races, as those typically come with potentially very significant benefits which aren't racial traits payed for in RP. There are good reasons why for example human is one of the mechanically strongest races for virtually any Paizo class, also in games including featured and/or uncommon races with traits of considerably more RP. Meaning that often are many of those reasons not found in the listed racial traits, but in the plethora of other strong options limited to humans (especially feats and traits).


It's designed as a DM tool, not another character aspect to optimize.True, which unfortunately is a part of the reason why it's such a poor and unreliable DM tool. :smallamused:


I am looking at this from the perspective of a DM, not a player, so I guess it makes sense that it's mostly just a judgement call thing.I typically design a new race from the DM perspective, but tune its mechanical balance from the perspective of a hardcore optimizer. That perspective allows me to more easily judge the race's actual mechanical power, and for example to identify components which make the race a total no-brainer choice for certain classes/build types, or to discover a seemingly strong race is actually weaker than one or two core races in every single build type of every single class I can think of.

In addition, I've started using level-dependent racial benefits to allow for races with cool and/or odd but strong features and have them play more nice with standard races. In my current game, additional benefits were granted at 7th level, when features such as a Large size or permanent flight aren't anyway near as powerful as they would've been during the earliest levels. For example, a race related to giants may exchange the Powerful Build trait for the Large size trait (not necessarily including the bonuses and penalties to Str and Dex of the standard Large racial trait), and a birdlike race may exchange the Gliding Wings trait for the Flight trait. At the same time, the standard races gain a less apparent but roughly equal boost, the easiest and surprisingly often most suitable being a feat or an additional +2 bonus to an ability score which hasn't already been modified by race.

While this makes the PCs slightly stronger, the difference is not even close to as significant as one might suspect when looking at the same benefits granted at 1st level. And it may also remove most balance issues Paizo races have, for example making the aasimar feel a lot less all powerful and the kobold a lot less weak, without necessarily changing the unique feel of the races.