Two Weapon Fighter help

[Flint21]

Hello everyone, rather new to D&D here, currently involved in my first campaign. Was hoping i could get some advice/help on my build. Right now im trying to make a bad-ass two weapon fighter that could fit in with Drizzt Do'urden / Artemis Entreri from R.A Salvatores books. He is gonna be a monster hunter of sorts, hunting all forms of evil, but specializing in Cults.
Here is my build:
1 Rogue (variant that gets fighter feats instead of sneak attack)/ 1 barbarian (pounce/whirling frenzy) /4 fighter/ 3 Lasher (from the 3.0 sword and fist book). I am attempting to make a two weapon whip fighter. Human, taking 2 flaws. Hopefully gonna be using the War whip (1d8 whip that deals lethal damage) and either a bastard sword / elven thinblade in the offhand.
Attributes at lvl 1 are: Str 16, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 8. ( 28 point buy, pumping all my attribute points from leveling into dex for improved TWF)
Feats are:
1st level Rogue 1
1.Power Attack
2.Two weapon fighting
3.Exotic wpf (whip)
4.exotic wpf (bastard sword/elven thinblade)
5. Weapon Focus (whip)
3rd level Rogue 1/Barbarian 1/Fighter 1
6.Oversized Two Weapon fighting
7.Wild Cohort (Riding dog, warbeast template)
4th level (fighter feat) Rogue 1/Barbarian 1/Fighter 2
8. ??????
6th level, (fighter feat) Rogue 1/Barbarian 1/Fighter 4
9.Weapon Specialization (Whip)
10.Knowledge Devotion
9th level Rogue 1/Barbarian 1/Fighter 4/Lasher 3
11.Melee Weapon Mastery (Slashing)

Now i know what you guys are thinking, Weapon focus/Specialization/Weapon Mastery are pretty poor feats, but considering that my build is TWF, with more attacks then normal, im hoping these bonuses will quickly add up

I was hoping you guys could tell me what you think about this build, and perhaps give me some advice on what feat i should take at 4th level.. My lasher levels will give me a small amount of sneak attack, Improved trip, and an extra attack with my whip at a -2 penalty to all attacks. I feel like this build can do good damage (though hitting high AC's may be difficult) My biggest complaint is my characters ac of 19 (with a dex +2 item and a mithral chain shirt) So im really looking for a feat that would help my characters ability to tank. Im currently planning to take the Exotic Weapon Master class for the next 2 levels for the Uncanny blow and the +2 to trip attempts with my whip (So id be 1 Rogue/1 Barbarian/4 Fighter/3 Lasher/2 Exotic Weapon master) Hoping you guys can help me find a good defensive feat to finish this level 9 build, and just tell me how you think this build will function at higher levels. This builds goal is to bring some more skills to the party (which consists of a barbarian, shield fighter, bard, wizard and cleric) while still being a formidable combatant.

On a side note, if your still reading, would like some advice on how i should spec my Riding dog. As a 9th level character, my dog would get 3 feats + track. I was thinking of giving him Power attack and leap attack, though i dont know what else to give him. Once he has high enough BAB, im also thinking of taking Raptor school, to make him into a powerful charger type. Id also like to make him good at moving silently / hiding so he can accompany me on scouting missions etc, though i have no idea how to accomplish this. Thanks again!

[Andezzar]

Why the feat rogue? Unless you get Sneak Attack from rogue (or some other class) the lasher Sneak attack only applies to whips.

If you do not want the regular rogue, you might consider taking a level of bard instead. It saves you the EWP (Whip) feat and you get spellcasting and bardic music.

Whip and bastard sword is a bad combination as neither weapon is light, so you get the full TWF penalty. The D10 is not worth two feats. Even the Elven Thinblade is not worth an extra feat.

I would use the regular rogue and take lots of swashbuckler levels and the Daring Outlaw feat instead of fighter levels. Remember, you can sneak attack out in the open as long as your opponent hasn't acted yet in combat. So charging someone with pounce is a good way to take him out, especially if you get extra damage on every attack.

2 or 4 extra damage (even multiple times) don't mean much unless you inflict enough damage to drop the opponent. A dragon with 1 HP is just as deadly as a dragon with full HP. You might want to improve the character's tripping ability before adding a bit of damage. A tripped opponent will have more problems striking back (and you get an AoO when he tries to get up).

[Khedrac]

Obligatory link: the TWF offhandbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279079-3-5-The-TWF-OffHandbook).

While you are not following any of its suggested paths, it should still give you good advice on what is / is not worth taking.

Oh - you probably want Improved TWF as one of your feats at 6th level.

[Eladrinblade]

Well, Drizzt and Artemis as built really suck (in 3e anyway). Frankly, so does your character. But that's why we're here.

TWF without some large amount of bonus damage (like sneak attack) is not great.
If you're gonna be a mostly-non precision damage character, you should aim for the tempest prestige class. That would give you better AC, attack, and let you use your weapon focus/spec feats on both weapons, rather than just your whips.

It's a shame you can't afford Combat Expertise, because Improved Trip and Improved Disarm + Combat Reflexes would be good with whips. But, with some tumble synergy, and maybe two-weapon defense, you can match the combat expertise dodge bonus (however an animated shield would be best, and it doesnt stack with two-weapon defense). Ol' Drizzy had twin-sword style for a boost to AC, but that won't work for you.

I take it you're not human? I wouldn't take EWP bastard sword or thinblade, that's basically a waste of a feat. Just use a rapier. You have Power Attack; does that even function with whips? It won't with a rapier anyway. You don't want to use Power Attack with TWF, you'll never hit anything (unless you have a big situational bonus, like your opponent being blind or prone or something). If you're boosting dex, you'll want weapon finesse. If you use a light weapon off-hand, you won't need Over sized TWF.

Why the dog? Tracking? Flanking? Because you want a dog?

At low levels, I would forget about TWF and get a darkwood heavy shield and enchant it ASAP. Are those ability scores at 1st level?

Here's more what I would do:

Str 14, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 16, Wis 8, Cha 8 (low con, GASP!)
Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 3/Barb 1 (taking swashbuckler 1 at 2nd)/Fighter 4/Thief-Acrobat 2/Lasher 3/Tempest 4
1 - Dodge
2 - Weapon Finesse
3 - EWP whip dagger
6 - TWF
8 - Daring Outlaw
9 - ITWF
9 - Whip Focus
11 - Mobility
12 - Spring Attack
15 - GTWF
16 - Whip Spec
18 - Knowledge Devotion

High Int gives extra skill points (meaning you can kinda afford cross-class knowledge ranks) and damage via swashbuckler. Despite having Int, I still couldn't fit combat expertise on there. Combat Reflexes would have been nice too (sure you don't want to be a human?) I know you get the cool stuff late, but you were hurting for feats. It'd hurt your damage, but I'd still get reduce person ASAP, for that extra +2 to hit and AC (also stealth boosts). Get freedom of movement ASAP, and max escape artist with rogue levels until then. Focus on AC at low levels (get that shield I talked about earlier). Use fighting defensively unless you're flanking or something. Get an animated heavy darkwood or mithril shield ASAP.

This build is still not great, but at least you'll have decent damage without sneak attack, assuming you get +str and +int items in addition to +dex. You'll get strength to damage on top of int to damage, so boost both (assuming 14 str +6 from an item -2 from reduce person, and 16 int +6 from an item, that's +10 to damage from ability scores, on top of weapon enhancement and weapon specialization).

Boost dex at everytime, and save up for celestial chain (and eventually add nimbleness to it). That'll give you 20 dex at 16th, +6 from an item, and +2 from reduce person = 28 or +9, which is the max dex bonus of celestial chain of nimbleness. Maybe switch out your off-hand rapier for a shortsword of subtlety (DMG).

EDIT: just realized I managed to somehow miss the entire 2nd half of your post....sorry

[Flint21]

Thanks for the help guys!

I am human, and those are my attributes at first level.

I would be averaging roughly 50-60 damage each full attack with this build, which would be quite a bit more then most of our party (besides the half-giant barbarian) Though high AC's are a problem, but i figure flanking, buffs, and Knowledge Devotion will help. Keep in mind most players in our party are very new to D&D.

I was taking the feat rogue variant because TWF is so feat intensive, i figure i could use the extra feats.

Im taking the Bastard sword/ Thinblade offhand so eventually i can use the Uncanny Blow class feature from Exotic Weapon master to get 2 for 1 power attack bonus with both my main hand and off hand weapon (got this idea from the TWF Offhandbook). The whip is a one handed melee weapon, so id assume power attack works with it. I figure getting this class feature will help my ability to deal damage at later levels without relying on precision based damage

Im getting the dog because yes, i want a dog and tracking is nice for my characters theme of a monster hunter, and i wont have the feats / class levels to spend on getting track. Also I have no idea what other feat i could take.... so i picked Wild Cohort. If you guys have any ideas on other feats i could take instead that would be great.... (preferably ones that make my character a better meatshield for all our squishies)

The reason im not focusing on improving my whips trip ability at first is because we have a Half-Giant Barbarian who is already an excellent tripper, so im kinda just his backup in this regard.

Animated shield has been outlawed in our game so cant do that.

I would have loved to take Improved Two Weapon fighting at 6th level, but because of the rogue level which i need for all the class skills/bonus skill points at first level, ill only have a BAB of 5 at level 6. Which means id have to take it at level 9, but I like melee weapon mastery for the additional bonus to my whip/offhand and any slashing weapon i may need to use incase I have to drop my whip. I really dont know how else to add damage to my character without sneak attack or pumping strength and using a 2h weapon with power attack....

I wish i could work swashbuckler 3 into my build, but i just cant figure out how to do it without putting off my favorite features till high levels (such as the extra attack). Our game is going kind of slow so i need this build to hit its sweet spot around level 9. I suppose i could take swashbuckler at 10, 11 and 12, but i wouldnt get the pay off from having a higher int/dex and lower strength till alot later. It would also put off my exotic weapon master levels which is pretty much the reason i took power attack....

I also tried to go into tempest, but it just has soooo many bad prerequisite feats (Dodge, Mobility, Spring attack which is useless with TWF...) that i didnt think it was worth it, considering id need to take 3 class levels to get the real good class feature from tempest anyway.Though I do have a feat slot that i dont know what to do with... and I would be willing to replace Wild Cohort if you guys think its worth it....

Thanks again for helping this noob out :smallbiggrin:

[Darrin]

While you are not following any of its suggested paths, it should still give you good advice on what is / is not worth taking.


Hmm. I'm not sure I really addressed whips in the OffHandbook. But the problem there is the whip-dagger was never updated to 3.5, so it's not clear if you can get a whip in 3.5 that does lethal damage and is still useful against someone wearing armor.



Oh - you probably want Improved TWF as one of your feats at 6th level.

That won't work with a rogue dip: +6 BAB prereq.



I was hoping you guys could tell me what you think about this build, and perhaps give me some advice on what feat i should take at 4th level.


Ok, two general problems here, then I'll try to be more specific. The first is you need a reliable method to move + full attack. Every round you don't get a full attack, those TWF feats are going to waste. To some extent, you have a partial solution in that a whip has a 15' reach, so as long as you've got a target within 20', you can 5' step and still full attack. The flaw here is the bastard sword, a weapon I love dearly (for no good reason) but you're probably going to have to ditch it. It doesn't have the same reach, and the +1 damage it has over a longsword isn't worth spending an entire feat on. I think the solution here is to double-down on the war whip: you need to dual-wield two war whips. Assuming this is a one-handed weapon (I'm fuzzy on the source for this weapon), you can use Oversized TWF to treat the offhand war whip as light. This simplifies some of your feat selections, as you don't have to spend feats on the bastard sword. It might be good to have an additional method to move + full attack: Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian is the easiest method, and helps ensure a full attack every round so long as you have a target within charging distance. Picking up Travel Devotion via the feat or a cleric dip might also help.

The second problem is your bonus damage. You've got Power Attack, which I'm presuming you can use with a war whip, and thus can also use with two war whips. However, trying to use Power Attack without Shock Trooper horks up your attack bonus, and using it with Shock Trooper horks up your AC. You'll want to check with the DM and see if you can get a favorable ruling on how the "Uncanny Blow" exotic weapon stunt works with one-handed exotic weapons. If you can get two-handed Power Attack damage while wielding a war whip in each hand, then I'd probably advise you to bite the bullet on Shock Trooper and just go the TWF-Ubercharger route. Since you should be attacking your opponent from at least 10' to 15' away, this should limit how much damage they can do against you, as they will have to settle for closing with a move action and using a single standard attack (unless they have Pounce or some similar ability).

And yes, Lasher gets 1d6 sneak attack with a whip, but 1d6 isn't really enough. Maybe throwing Craven on there might help, but you'd still need to put some thought into how you're going to trigger sneak attack. Flanking with your riding dog might work, but it's problematic to be a flanker *and* attack from 10' to 15' away. I'd also have some concerns about the riding dog getting smeared against frontline opponents. Warblade dip + Martial Study: Cloak of Deception would get you greater invisibility every other round, along with Sudden Leap, Wolf Fang Strike, Punishing Stance, and Mountain Hammer.

Ok, more specific. Check and see if the Exoticist fighter variant from Dragon #310 is available. That'll save you a feat. If not, then consider:

Race: Human.
1) SLT Barbarian 1. Feat: Power Attack. Human: EWP War Whip. Whirling Frenzy ACF.
2) Fighter 1. Feat: Power Attack. Bonus: EWP War Whip. Human: TWF.
3) Fighter 2. Bonus: Oversized TWF.
4) Fighter 3. Feat: WF War Whip.
5) Warblade 1. Sudden Leap, Punishing Stance.
6) Fighter 4. Feat: Improved TWF. Bonus: Shock Trooper.
7) Lasher 1.
8) EWM 1. Uncanny Blow.
9) Lasher 2. Feat: Wild Cohort. Bonus: Improved Trip.
10) Lasher 3.
11) Fighter 5.
12) Fighter 6. Feat: WS War Whip. Bonus: Melee Weapon Mastery.

If you can get Gloves of the Balanced Hand (8000 GP, MIC), you can get another feat in there by delayingImproved TWF. This could allow you to pick up Martial Study: Cloak of Deception at 6th or maybe Craven at 9th.

I'm not sure Wild Cohort is necessary. If you're already buying a warbeast then... maybe just do that without taking the feat? If you need a stronger warbeast later, then buy a bigger one later. In which case, consider picking up Knock-Down (SRD version (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown)) there.

As far as defensive feats go, the best feat to boost your AC is Shape Soulmeld: Wormtail Belt, which gives you +2 natural armor. Law Devotion gets a better AC bonus (+3/+5/+7), but has limited usage/duration.

[BowStreetRunner]

First off, most of my TWF builds lean heavily on the martial adept classes from Tome of Battle. If you have access to that book, I highly recommend it.

Secondly, any TWF build requires quite a few tools to be effective. In combat you are either trying to get to a Full Attack (in which case you need abilities that help you move into full attack scenarios, abilities that give you extra attacks in full attack scenarios, and abilities that make your full attacks more effective) or make multiple attacks outside of your full attacks (in which case you need abilities that add attacks to your standard action attacks and/or attacks of opportunity, as well as abilities that make these attacks more effective).

The TWF feats (TWF, Improved TWF, Greater TWF) coupled with the Weapon Focus/Specialization chain (WF, WS, GWF, GWS, and possibly Melee Weapon Mastery) are one way to improve the full attack scenario, but are not the only way to go about it. Any ability that gives you extra attacks during a full attack (a monk's flurry of blows, martial maneuvers like Dancing Mongoose) can fill the first need, and there are lots of attack/damage adders out there like Knowledge Devotion and Two Weapon Rend for instance. Pounce type abilities that allow you to move into the full attack are harder to come by and often are the real trick to a decent TWF build. On the other hand, there are also abilities that give you the use of both weapons in a standard attack (martial manuervers Wolf Fang Strike and Steel Wind for instance) or attacks of opportunity (Double Hit feat).

You may also want to give Ranger a second look, as it gives bonus feats in the TWF chain as well as an animal companion for your build.

[Khedrac]

Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 3/Barb 1 (taking swashbuckler 1 at 2nd)/Fighter 4/Thief-Acrobat 2/Lasher 3/Tempest 4Remember most people do play with experience penalties - which this build has (just not most board posters it seems).


I would have loved to take Improved Two Weapon fighting at 6th level, but because of the rogue level which i need for all the class skills/bonus skill points at first level, ill only have a BAB of 5 at level 6.
Silly me.

You have put Knowledge Devotion in your build. With a build like this I have to question if it is really worth it...
Just how many points will you have in knowledge skills to make the checks with?
Yes you can get decent damage boosts if you are playing a knowledge specialist, but unless you have room for a lot of skill points in the build it is a waste of a feat.

[BowStreetRunner]

You have put Knowledge Devotion in your build. With a build like this I have to question if it is really worth it...
Just how many points will you have in knowledge skills to make the checks with?
Yes you can get decent damage boosts if you are playing a knowledge specialist, but unless you have room for a lot of skill points in the build it is a waste of a feat.

In comparison to feats like Weapon Focus, Knowledge Devotion is just plain better. Yes, you need to put a skill point (or two cross-class) into every knowledge skill that relates to creatures in order to make a check. But even if that is all you do, it's still a guaranteed +1 to attack and damage. If you dump some additional skill points into knowledge skills or pick up things like the Collector of Stories skill trick you can start making +2 or higher bonuses a regular thing as well.

In comparison to other feats out there, well it really depends on what you are trying to do. But you don't have to dump a lot of points into knowledge skills to make this just worthwhile. You only need to do that if you want to make this feat really shine.

[Flint21]

Thank you all for the excellent advice! My mind is racing with all the new ideas to improve my character....




As far as defensive feats go, the best feat to boost your AC is Shape Soulmeld: Wormtail Belt, which gives you +2 natural armor. Law Devotion gets a better AC bonus, but has limited usage/duration.

This is pretty much exactly what i was looking for, thank you very much! I do have a question though.... what exactly is a Soulmeld? Is my character going to have this Wormtail belt growing out of his flesh or something?

Quite an honor to have the author of the Offhandbook replying to my thread :smallbiggrin: I've spent quite a while reading your work....
Exoticist is also excellent, hopefully i can get it approved by my DM.


First off, most of my TWF builds lean heavily on the martial adept classes from Tome of Battle. If you have access to that book, I highly recommend it.





Unfortunately, Tome of Battle has been deemed too powerful for our campaign :smallfrown: I am however, looking into two weapon rend, trying to figure out how i might fit it into my build at level 12.



You have put Knowledge Devotion in your build. With a build like this I have to question if it is really worth it...
Just how many points will you have in knowledge skills to make the checks with?
Yes you can get decent damage boosts if you are playing a knowledge specialist, but unless you have room for a lot of skill points in the build it is a waste of a feat.

I wont have too many skill points unfortunately, probably try to get between 4-7 points in the important Knowledge skills. Luckily in our campaign we have mostly been fighting Devils / Cultists, so id really be focusing on Knowledge (religion) and Knowledge (the planes), though i now realize that none of my classes actually have these as class skills.... so another problem i need to solve. Perhaps i should try to fit a cleric level into my build, though my wisdom is too low for spells :smallfrown: Or perhaps, if Exoticist is approved, I can use the free feat slot for Able learner.

Any advice on how else I might gain these class skills? Perhaps some sort of Rogue variant or Rogue like class that i can take instead? Im also considering dropping my strength to 14 and raising my intelligence to 14, but I dont know. I feel like I would miss the damage / bonus to trip attempts.

[Darrin]

I do have a question though.... what exactly is a Soulmeld? Is my character going to have this Wormtail belt growing out of his flesh or something?


A soulmeld is where you take part of your character's inner soul energy and sculpt it into something like a wearable magic item. When you shape it, it occupies a "chakra", which usually corresponds to a magic item slot (arms, hands, throat, etc.). They sort of work like clothing in that you can wear them over your current clothing/armor, but they don't have any weight and can't be removed/damaged/destroyed by normal means. Shaping the soulmeld is a little like studying spells: rest for 8 hours, then spend 1 hour meditating. After that, the soulmeld is permanent until you unshape it. Most soulmelds do three things:

1) The basic soulmeld provides a static benefit of some sort, usually an insight bonus to something, such as skills, AC, HP, etc. You have to assign it to a particular body location where it occupies the same slot a magic item would take. (Magic items and soulmelds can't occupy the same slot unless you get a special feat for that.)

2) You can invest essentia points into the soulmeld to get a higher bonus. (If you don't have any essentia, don't worry about it.)

3) You can "bind" the soulmeld to one of your chakras, which provides a much more interesting effect, similar to a feat, class ability, or special attack. Access to your chakra binds is usually restricted by class levels in some way, in that the more class levels you have, then you get access to more powerful chakras.

For the purposes of taking the Wormtail Belt soulmeld, you don't really have to worry about 2) or 3), you're just using it for the +2 natural armor bonus. It looks like a wide belt of purple scales. So you can think of it more like, "Shape Soulmeld: Magic Belt of Natural Armor".



Unfortunately, Tome of Battle has been deemed too powerful for our campaign :smallfrown: I am however, looking into two weapon rend, trying to figure out how i might fit it into my build at level 12.


Hmmm. I'll take a closer look at that after lunch.



I wont have too many skill points unfortunately, probably try to get between 4-7 points in the important Knowledge skills.


Just put 1-2 points in each monster category. That guarantees you a +1 attack/damage bonus regardless of what you roll. If you have extra skill points you can spare, then specialize in something you know your DM will use a lot of.



Or perhaps, if Exoticist is approved, I can use the free feat slot for Able learner.

Meh... you're already tight on feats. I'd recommend against it.

Cloistered Cleric 1 dip can get you three feats: Knowledge Devotion, Travel Devotion, and possibly EWP/WF whip, if we can dig up a deity with all that in their portfolio. (I usually take the Magic Domain so I can activate wands.) It also gives you at least six skill points for that level. However, it tends to run afoul of multiclass penalties, unless that's not a thing your group uses.

[Eldariel]

There are few classes that could help you save a lot of feats and levels.

The first is Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric): You get Knowledge-domain for free allowing you to trade it for Knowledge Devotion, and you get other two Domains (which can grant feat-equivalent effects). This handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3927) goes in detail on various domain options. I'll just mention that you'd have Turn Undead to fuel Travel Devotion too giving you an alternative way to move and full attack for when you don't have room for Pounce. If you got War-domain in an appropriate deity (Al-Ishtus from Sandstorm for instance offers War-domain and has Whips as a favored weapon), you could even get Weapon Focus off that to later qualify for other stuff (e.g. Pious Templar [Complete Divine] grants Weapon Specialization in 3 levels enabling you to pick up Melee Weapon Mastery). Note that to make the most out of Knowledge Devotion, you should favor high skill classes.

The other is Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm). Bards get natural proficiency in the Whip, which would save you some trouble. They get a couple of other cool things too, though no direct feats like with Cleric. If you run by Fractional Saves & BAB (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20060303a), you'd only lose 1 BAB for taking a level in both.


And yeah, Barbarian is good. Pounce, some feats, etc. You should take the second level of Barbarian in Wolf Totem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wolfTotemClassFeatures ) for easy Improved Trip access. If you do trip your target, you can easily Power Attack for fairly significant damage. And yeah, Exotic Weapon Master is pretty nice too, though you also have 3.0 options like Weapon Master (good for crit stacking though Whip/Whip-Dagger isn't that amazing for crits). There are Gloves of the Balanced Hand [Magic Item Compendium] to save a feat/postpone having to take Improved Two-Weapon Fighting. They're relatively cheap.

Ultimately, Lasher isn't a horrible place to be at though you'll have trouble proccing Sneak Attack reliably; perhaps get Ring of Blinking eventually or something? Though flanking does help too. To that end, getting 3 levels of standard Rogue for Penetrating Strike [Dungeonscape] plus Craven [Champions of Ruin] would be ideal as that'd allow you to deal sneak attack damage vs. almost anything (Darkstalker [Lords of Madness] would also cut away enemies that have all-round vision making the list of things you can't Sneak Attack very short indeed).


Could consider something like Rogue 1/Cloistered Cleric 1/Bard 1/Barbarian 1/Rogue +2/Lasher -> (though sadly, Lasher has poor skill points). If you don't run fractional BAB, that's a no-go though. Might want to go more martial then.

[Flint21]

Cloistered Cleric sounds amazing. Though the 0 BAB is a bit problematic if i want to get to lasher 3 by level 9. Perhaps ill ditch rogue and take a level in urban ranger instead to get the class skills i desire (hide, move silently, gather information) Though i will miss some of the goodies from rogue.... Thinking something like Cloistered Cleric 1/Urban Ranger 1(or Rogue?)/Barbarian 1/Fighter 4/Lasher 2.... I wouldnt get my extra attack from Lasher till level 10 which makes me kind of sad... but CC seems more then worth it. Since i would have travel devotion, would I be better off getting my extra attack from Lasher at level 9, and waiting till level 10 to take my Barbarian level? It may not seem like a big deal but we will probably be at level 9 for a good couple of months.

Also, since im gonna be taking Cloistered Cleric, would it still be okay to dump Wis/Cha? I feel like I've already stretched my ability scores so thin just trying to make my fighter into a good combatant.

[Andezzar]

If you wait till level 10 to take your barbarian level, you won't have pounce for levels 1-9.

Unless you want to actually cleric cast spells you can dump WIS. Dumping CHA might not be such a good idea as CHA can be used for extra Turn Undead Attempts which in turn can be used to fuel devotion feats.

[Flint21]

I see. I guess I will stick with rogue instead of ranger then.

[Darrin]

I see. I guess I will stick with rogue instead of ranger then.

What's your build look like now? I'm not sure what changes you've made.

[Kelvarius]

A kind of cheesy build I saw someone else post on these boards not too long ago (But I can't remember where, so I have no idea where to find it in order to give credit) is Swashbuckler 3/Sneak Attack and Hit and Run Fighter variants 3/Feat Rogue variant 14.

Swashbuckler 3 and Sneak Attack Fighter 3 qualifies you for Daring Outlaw, which lets Swashbuckler and Rogue levels stack for determining Sneak Attack dice.

Hit and Run Fighter variant adds +2 to initiative and allows you to add Dex to damage against flat footed opponents. This allows you to dump Strength and pump Intelligence for more damage (Thanks to Swashbuckler 3) and skill points. The cost is Heavy Armor and Tower Shield proficiency.

Finish off your levels with Feat Rogue to get all those tasty feats, and thanks to Daring Outlaw, add Sneak Attack to the mix.

You could easily drop a couple Rogue levels to fit in other things, such as the Barbarian pounce.

End result is 8 bonus fighter feats, 11d6 Sneak Attack, free Weapon Finesse, Intelligence to damage, Dexterity to damage against flat footed, two Special Rogue abilities, and a couple other minor bonuses.

[Andezzar]

Nice rule bending to use the sneak attack fighter to qualify for daring outlaw and the feat rogue to get extra sneak attack dice

[Flint21]

What's your build look like now? I'm not sure what changes you've made.

Well, with all the new feats being freed up from Cloistered Cleric and Exoticist, im not exactly sure what feats i should take. Im gonna actually have to take ranger levels rather then rogue if i want to qualify for Melee Weapon Mastery by level 9. Right now im looking like:

Urban Ranger 1/SLT Barbarian 1/Fighter 4/Lasher 2/Cloistered Cleric 1

Ability Scores: 16 Strength, 16 Dex, 14 Con, 10 Int, 8 Wis, 8 Cha

Feats are:
1st level Urban Ranger 1
1)Power Attack
2)Two weapon fighting
3)Weapon Finesse
4)????(Wild Cohort? Or perhaps Quick draw so i can use some of the exotic WPF from Exoticist to use some throwing weapons?)
2nd level Urban Ranger 1/SLT Barbarian 1
3rd level Urban Ranger 1/SLT Barbarian 1/Fighter 1
5)Oversized Two Weapon fighting
6)Shape Soulmeld: Wormtail Belt
4th level Urban Ranger 1/SLT Barbarian 1/Fighter 2
7) Weapon Focus (Whip)
5th level Urban Ranger 1/SLT Barbarian 1/Fighter 3
6th level, Urban Ranger 1/SLT Barbarian 1/Fighter 3/Lasher 1
8)Improved Two Weapon Fighting
7th level Urban Ranger 1/SLT Barbarian 1/Fighter 3/Lasher 1/Cloistered Cleric 1
8th level Urban Ranger 1/SLT Barbarian 1/Fighter 4/Lasher 1/Cloistered Cleric 1
9)Weapon Specialization
9th level Urban Ranger 1/SLT Barbarian 1/Fighter 4/Lasher 2/Cloistered Cleric 1
10)Melee Weapon Mastery (Slashing)

I could use some help with my 4th feat slot. Also, how might i go about getting Weapon focus with my whip from Cloistered Cleric? I know Al-Ishtus was mentioned, but i havent been able to find much about him. He does seem quite evil though, which might conflict with my characters role of a Cult hunter (I am aiming for Chaotic good, would not mind being some form of Neutral if necessary though)If i could do that, I might consider trying to get the prereq feats for Tempest, though those feats are definitely not very useful...

[Nando]

Also, how might i go about getting Weapon focus with my whip from Cloistered Cleric?

Nephthys, Sharindlar and Sune favor whips and are CG, Lolth is CE, Azul LE and, as mentioned Al-Ishtus is NE.
None of those do have War as a domain, though.

[Darrin]

Nephthys, Sharindlar and Sune favor whips and are CG, Lolth is CE, Azul LE and, as mentioned Al-Ishtus is NE.
None of those do have War as a domain, though.

Unfortunately, I can't find any deity with Travel, War, and favored weapon: whip. So that's a wash.

For your third domain, you'll want something useful. I like magic for sor/wiz wands, but you've got plenty of wand choices with ranger and cleric available. Wis isn't high enough for spellcasting, though... I'd be tempted to drop Str to 14 and maybe bump up Wis to 12. You get two 1st level cleric spells, and can use spell-trigger items. Notably, instant of power (Forge of War) and blades of fire (Spell Compendium). For your cleric spells, I'd prepare blade of blood (PHBII) and protective interposition (Forge of War). If Forge of War isn't available, then consider impeding stones (Cityscape, Rgr 1) or ice slick (Frostburn, Clr 1).

Animal: flight for 1 min (Procan CN)
Celerity: +10' speed (Fharlanghn N, )
Luck: reroll 1/day (Aasterinian CN, Fharlanghn N, Procan CN, Taiia CG)
Strength: slam attack (Io N)
Time: Improved Initiative bonus feat (Cyndor LN)

Undeath would also be good (gain Extra Turning as a bonus feat), but I can't find any deities that have both Travel and Undeath in their portfolio. You could make one up or worship an ideal, though.

[Flint21]

Just want to thank everyone again for all the help! My character has improved quite alot. I believe ill be taking Io as my deity, with Strength and Travel devotion feats. I like Io because originally my character wasnt gonna be very religious, and Io doesnt demand worship correct? (Hes the overgod right, doesnt really care much about what mortals do in the world?) This will be great because my characters RP is gonna be that he hates how gods like to meddle with the world, and seeks to eliminate these meddlers and their cults due to him being a victim of some sort of ritual at an early age.

Seems like ill be taking Wild Cohort as my 4th feat since i cant really think of anything really cool to take instead, and i like the idea of having a badass dog to aid me in my hunts. Any advice on how i might make my riding dog good at Moving Silently/Hiding? Would love to be able to take him with me for some back up on my scouting missions, but im not sure how class skills work with animals. Also any advice on how i should spec him to make him into a decent combatant would be great...

[Canine]

Unfortunately, I can't find any deity with Travel, War, and favored weapon: whip. So that's a wash.

I believe Henry the Lesser, called Indiana by some worshipers, is a minor deity with with Travel, Knowledge, War, and favored weapon: whip.

[Khedrac]

Hes the overgod right, doesnt really care much about what mortals do in the world?
Umm, yes and no.

Ao is the Overgod of Realmspace - the world of the Forgotten Realms and its environs.

Io is the overgod of the draconic pantheon and accepts worshippers (and technically priests) of all alignments (his alignment is unknown). In 2nd Ed the draconic deities where statted as significantly more powerful than human and demi-human deities (similar relationship as dragons to humans and demi-humans).
For 3rd Ed he was reduced to a Lesser god. It probably isn't correct to say he doesn't care what mortals do (that would be Ao or Boccob) but he isn't known for acting so what he thinks of mortal's actions isn't well known. One exception - dragons - he is the overgod of dragons so you don't want to do things like this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0639.html).

What is also important is which pantheon(s) your DM is permitting (i.e. where the campaign is set). If the Faerun pantheon is not available then Ao is not an option (he's also not an option before the Time of Troubles). Io should be an option everywhere, thut there will be exceptions if your DM's campaign world is special (e.g. Athas [Dark Sun]).

[Ortesk]

I was always partial to a Wild ELf Barbarian 1/Swashbucker 3/Fighter 1/Revenant Blade 5/ Warblade 1/Eternal Blade 10, Personally.

Pounce+whirling Frenzy+ Ferocity rage, adding in the +1.5str damage from both ends of the scimitar, then Intelligence on top of that, The feats for Revenant aren't terrible, I mean you get 3 freebies (more than that if you pick up things like great cleave) With belt of battle, and a high init, you *should* end a battle before the enemy can blink, 3 full rounds of attacks are pretty sweet.

Another playgrounder may be able to make shadowblade work into that build, but I can't.

[Andezzar]

What's the wild elf for in that build?

[Eladrinblade]

What's the wild elf for in that build?

I think I can answer that. You need elf for eternal blade, and he chose wild elf because they have an int penalty rather than con.

Anyway, to make a dog sneaky, the simplest way is probably to just have invisibility/hide from whatever and silence cast on it. Or, give it a mithral breastplate barding with silent moves and shadow enhancements.

[Ortesk]

I think I can answer that. You need elf for eternal blade, and he chose wild elf because they have an int penalty rather than con.


Correct you are, also you need elf for revenant blade, I just picked a non squishy elf. If you go the finesse route, (no idea how tho) it also nets you extra +1 to hit

And OP, about your riding dog. How cheesy do you want? :P I like Exalted Companion + Natural Bond (on me) Sacred Vow + Vow of Poverty + Vow of non violence + vow of peace on my animal companions, should make him competent

[Andezzar]

I'm not so sure an INT penalty is so great on a character that uses INT for damage, but then again that is one HP in total whereas the CON penalty removes 1 HP per level.

[Ortesk]

I'm not so sure an INT penalty is so great on a character that uses INT for damage, but then again that is one HP in total whereas the CON penalty removes 1 HP per level.

True, a snow elf would probably be best then. The charisma is a dump stat on that build anyhow

[Flint21]

Correct you are, also you need elf for revenant blade, I just picked a non squishy elf. If you go the finesse route, (no idea how tho) it also nets you extra +1 to hit

And OP, about your riding dog. How cheesy do you want? :P I like Exalted Companion + Natural Bond (on me) Sacred Vow + Vow of Poverty + Vow of non violence + vow of peace on my animal companions, should make him competent

hehe definitely dont want to be too cheesy just on my dog :smallbiggrin: Was hoping for something like take X feat to gain said class skills XD He'll have a high dex so i guess i can just put in 2 points to have it trained and try to rely on that.... might get a bit messy though lol.



Anyway, to make a dog sneaky, the simplest way is probably to just have invisibility/hide from whatever and silence cast on it. Or, give it a mithral breastplate barding with silent moves and shadow enhancements.



As to casting spells on him... are any of those cleric/ranger spells? Might be able to buy a wand for those if thats the case... otherwise im out of luck lol.


Umm, yes and no.

Ao is the Overgod of Realmspace - the world of the Forgotten Realms and its environs.

Io is the overgod of the draconic pantheon and accepts worshippers (and technically priests) of all alignments (his alignment is unknown). In 2nd Ed the draconic deities where statted as significantly more powerful than human and demi-human deities (similar relationship as dragons to humans and demi-humans).
For 3rd Ed he was reduced to a Lesser god. It probably isn't correct to say he doesn't care what mortals do (that would be Ao or Boccob) but he isn't known for acting so what he thinks of mortal's actions isn't well known.

What is also important is which pantheon(s) your DM is permitting (i.e. where the campaign is set). If the Faerun pantheon is not available then Ao is not an option (he's also not an option before the Time of Troubles). Io should be an option everywhere, thut there will be exceptions if your DM's campaign world is special (e.g. Athas [Dark Sun]).

Well were currently playing in a world created by the DM, so im pretty sure any deity/pantheon is fair game. Does Ao have a set of domains? I was quite excited about making him my deity.... If i have to choose Io however things change quite a bit if hes the god of dragons.....

Really would just like a deity with both the Travel and Strength domains who isnt 100% evil. Would it be possible to not choose a deity and just worship the Travel/Strength domains?

[Andezzar]

Are you still making a human or other medium sized character? A medium creature cannot ride a medium mount like a riding dog. If you only want that animal as extra combatant and not as mount other creatures might be better.

[Eladrinblade]

Don't you have a wizard, cleric, and bard on your team? If so, buy them wands. If not, there's always UMD. Silence is a spell for all three, and invisibility is for the bard and wizard (and trickery clerics, but not greater invisibility, I don't think).

Also, as to the poster above, if you are reduced via reduced person, you can ride your dog.

[Flint21]

Are you still making a human or other medium sized character? A medium creature cannot ride a medium mount like a riding dog. If you only want that animal as extra combatant and not as mount other creatures might be better.

I am indeed human, not planning to ride the dog. I just chose the riding dog because i figured it would be the most appropriate animal for my character to have, seeing as he will be spending most of his time in a city, and i think a Ranger and his dog is a good looking pair. Any other suggestions? (Dont want anything too extreme, def needs to be a medium creature)


Don't you have a wizard, cleric, and bard on your team? If so, buy them wands. If not, there's always UMD. Silence is a spell for all three, and invisibility is for the bard and wizard (and trickery clerics, but not greater invisibility, I don't think).

Also, as to the poster above, if you are reduced via reduced person, you can ride your dog.

I do, though they tend to prepare whatever spells they think are cool (not paying much mind to what spells are necessarily the best) but i suppose i could buy them wands. What is UMD?

As to wands, do i need to have the wisdom prerequisite to use them? I dont really plan to be casting spells on my character so im thinking im gonna stick with Wis 8, unless of course i need higher wisdom to use wands. Also, can i use any wand on the cleric/ranger spell list, regardless of level?

[Eladrinblade]

I do, though they tend to prepare whatever spells they think are cool (not paying much mind to what spells are necessarily the best) but i suppose i could buy them wands. What is UMD?

As to wands, do i need to have the wisdom prerequisite to use them? I dont really plan to be casting spells on my character so im thinking im gonna stick with Wis 8, unless of course i need higher wisdom to use wands. Also, can i use any wand on the cleric/ranger spell list, regardless of level?

UMD = Use Magic Device, the skill

If it's on your class list, regardless if you can actually cast the spell or not (due to not being a 4th level or higher ranger, or from low wisdom), you can use the wand.
This is only true with spell-trigger items like wands.

[Andezzar]

I am indeed human, not planning to ride the dog. I just chose the riding dog because i figured it would be the most appropriate animal for my character to have, seeing as he will be spending most of his time in a city, and i think a Ranger and his dog is a good looking pair. Any other suggestions? (Dont want anything too extreme, def needs to be a medium creature)Under those circumstances the riding dog is fine. I wasn't aware that the riding dog stats also include larger breeds not intended for riding like collies and St. Bernards.

If you want something more exotic, try getting a Deinonychus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dinosaur.htm#deinonychus).


UMD = Use Magic Device, the skill

If it's on your class list, regardless if you can actually cast the spell or not (due to not being a 4th level or higher ranger, or from low wisdom), you can use the wand.
This is only true with spell-trigger items like wands.Correction, Rangers level 1-3 are not spellcasters, so they cannot use wands. At level 4, when they get spellcasting they can use wands regardless of wisdom score.

[Eladrinblade]

Correction, Rangers level 1-3 are not spellcasters, so they cannot use wands. At level 4, when they get spellcasting they can use wands regardless of wisdom score.

You better read the section on spell trigger, then.

[Andezzar]

You better read the section on spell trigger, then.Great, the part in parentheses contradicts the sentences preceding it. A third level paladin does not have a spell list, so the spell is not on his or her list.

[Eladrinblade]

He does have a spell list, he just can't access it yet.

[Andezzar]

He does have a spell list, he just can't access it yet.The paladin class has a spell list, the character does not. He only gets the spell list with the Spells class feature.
Beginning at 4th level, a paladin gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells, which are drawn from the paladin spell list

[BowStreetRunner]

If you’re a member of a class that has spellcasting ability, you can use any spell trigger item that stores a spell that’s on your class’s spell list, even when you don’t have the class level or the ability score to cast the stored spell. This even applies when you don’t have enough class levels to cast any spells at all. For example, a paladin of 1st, 2nd, or 3rd level has not yet gained any spellcasting ability, but she still can use spell trigger items that store spells on the paladin class list.
FWIW this is what the FAQ has to say about the issue here.