The Mount Problem

[Albonor]

Hi all,

Since one of my players is going for the classic Noble Knight (Straight fighter, Monster Hunter from UA) and would love to have the faithful steed thing going on, I am looking for a tweak or house rule to allow the horse to have more than 19hp. Of course giving said mount 22str and 24 con is a start (42hp if 10 for the first hd) because no way a strong warhorse has less stamina and power than a human but it still does not make it last very far.

Now, I read the argument that knights did lose horses in battle very often but we are talking about a mediaval fantasy story with level 10 fighters with 100hp here, not a realistic story (I'd play Warhammer or a reworked version of WoD for that). Do I just give the horse levels in the Expert class as the fighter levels up? That could replace a magic item...

I know: griffins and wyverns. But....no? I mean maybe but otherwise maybe a unicorn at higher levels but...horsie please?

Anyway, did you guys come up with good house rules for this?

[NNescio]

Take the Mounted Combatant feat.

[gfishfunk]

To elaborate on the prior poster's point of taking the Mounted Combatant feat:

The feat allows the rider to redirect incoming (melee attacks or all attacks?) from the mount to the rider, giving the mount a much greater livability. It addresses a lot of concerns, except for area of affect type of things.

Alternatively, you can require the player to level in Ranger to get the Beastmaster subclass and allow the warhorse. The trick is that having a very powerful ally like this is a significant thing.

Alternatively-Alternatively, you can give him access to the faithful steed spell.

[Gastronomie]

Just friggin' ignore the mount in combat and don't have your goblins attack it. Pretend as though it never existed.

I think this is enough.

That said, Mounted Combatant is a feat the knight should take anyway, but it does have a nice bonus that sorta justifies your goblins' actions.

[Giant2005]

I agree that Mounted Combatant takes care of a lot of the problems, but not all of them. Any AOE that the character is caught in will destroy his mount. I you don't want the mount to end up as collateral damage, arrange for him to encounter some kind of legendary horse that is immune to magical damage. That should take care of aoes and Mounted Combatant will take care of the rest.

[DivisibleByZero]

The feat also gives your mount evasion. So AoE effects aren't as much of a concern as they seem.
Or table houseruled that if either the mount or the rider make their save, then the mount's evasion kicks in for both of them. That, in combination with the rider taking the damage for the mount, was literally all it took to keep a mount's puny HP as a non-issue. The mounted player hasn't lost his simple horse yet through 13 levels of play.

[gfishfunk]

Another idea!

The Horse is granted through a magical item, which gives the bearer access to summon mount.

Bonus Points: the horse is the spirit of the PC's childhood sweetheart who died.

Extra Bonus Points: the horse is very, very jealous, and hates all members of the opposite sex PCs and NPCs that the PC interacts with.

[Demonslayer666]

Mounts give plenty of benefit, so I don't agree with completely ignoring the mount. That benefit should come with it's inherent risk and not just be free monk speed. You should certainly avoid picking on it because it is weaker, but if it is in the radius of the fireball, so be it.

I would just advance it slowly, give it some extra hit points. There's really nothing wrong with making it tougher. Just don't go overboard and make it another PC.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The feat also gives your mount evasion. So AoE effects aren't as much of a concern as they seem.
Or table houseruled that if either the mount or the rider make their save, then the mount's evasion kicks in for both of them. That, in combination with the rider taking the damage for the mount, was literally all it took to keep a mount's puny HP as a non-issue. The mounted player hasn't lost his simple horse yet through 13 levels of play.
This sounds pretty good to me, to be honest. I could also see allowing downtime training to boost the horse-- say, one month for a skill or save proficiency (maximum 2 or each), one week for a bonus hit die (maximum equal to your level), both costing 1-2 gold a day.

EDIT: Or perhaps trade Hunter's Mysticism for Beastmaster-style benefits? Say, they get the Proficiency to attacks, damage, and saves, your superiority dice as bonus hit die, and you can give up one of your attacks to allow your mount to use one of its. That plus some nice barding should make for a pretty nice mounted knight. You might also look at the Cavalier subclass in the Kits of Old UA, though it's rather crappier than the excellent Monster Hunter and I recommend giving it the aforementioned benefit on top of everything else.

[Bubzors]

As others have stated, I do not think it is as a problem you think it is. If having mounted combatant isn't enough just give the horse some extra HP and call it a day. No need to get super complicated with it with levels and such

[NNescio]

Another idea!

The Horse is granted through a magical item, which gives the bearer access to summon mount.

Bonus Points: the horse is the spirit of the PC's childhood sweetheart who died.

Extra Bonus Points: the horse is very, very jealous, and hates all members of the opposite sex PCs and NPCs that the PC interacts with.

Extra Bonus Doubleplusgood Points: The horse calls the PC "senpai".

[RulesJD]

I mean, the easiest solution is to just have the PC be a Paladin instead of a Fighter. Problem solved between Mounted Combatant Feat + Find Steed spell + Spell sharing with the horse.

[uraniumrooster]

I have a player who uses a warhorse as a Champion Fighter, and I allowed him to purchase a superior steed from a renowned horse breeder (maximized the HP from each hit die, increased cost). I also allow the horse to fall unconscious and make death saves as a result of falling to 0HP, rather than immediately dying, which makes it a bit more durable.

Between those adjustments and Mounted Combatant, the horse has survived for quite a long time now (the campaign has been running for about a year, with sessions every other week). There have been a few close calls, but I think the player enjoys the added element of having to protect their horse in combat.

The Saddle of the Cavalier also helps a bit, and it's a nice low-power magic item you can include early on.

[HunterMarked]

I mean, the easiest solution is to just have the PC be a Paladin instead of a Fighter. Problem solved between Mounted Combatant Feat + Find Steed spell + Spell sharing with the horse.

It's true. Usually the knight in shiny armor tends to be a paladin. The class was even designed to support a steed via his aura (adds CHA on nearby allies save throws), his heal, his find steed spell etc.

As for that specific PC I think it is worth counting the mount as an "important NPC" for the purpose of d-saving throws. Also the above mentioned Mounted Combatant can help and to add my ideas don't forget the following three things

1. You can bard mounts
2. You can modify it's HP (max hp die, increase the hp dice or the con mod)
3. You can "awaken" the mount (have a druid cast awaken on it) and make it use some kind of magical items. It can also be the target for temp hp giving spells.

[Slipperychicken]

Now, I read the argument that knights did lose horses in battle very often but we are talking about a mediaval fantasy story with level 10 fighters with 100hp here, not a realistic story (I'd play

Heroes' mounts die or fall all the time in heroic fiction too. Members of Arthur's court chewed through a staggering number of horses. Like half the time when they had a duel that started mounted, the participants ended up killing each others' horses or grievously injuring them before fighting on foot.

[ZX6Rob]

Don't track hit points for the horse at all. Instead, the purpose of attacking the horse is to get the knight to fall off. If a particularly crafty goblin wants to remove a knight from his mount, he spears the beast in the flank. The rider then makes a Handle Animal check, with a DC at least somewhat based on how hard the animal was hit, to see if he can maintain control of his mount, and if he fails, he falls off. If he does, the horse is spooked and high-tails it out of Dodge, to be recovered later.

It's not RAW, but RAW for mounted combat is slim, anyway. This is pretty simple, leaves the player with only a single Boolean variable to track at the table (amOnHorse = true), and requires little to no additional work for you as the DM.

[MrStabby]

Another idea!

The Horse is granted through a magical item, which gives the bearer access to summon mount.

Bonus Points: the horse is the spirit of the PC's childhood sweetheart who died.

Extra Bonus Points: the horse is very, very jealous, and hates all members of the opposite sex PCs and NPCs that the PC interacts with.

Yeah... "I mount my dead girlfriend" just doesn't seem quite right for the whole knight thing? Good for a roll in the hay though.

[gfishfunk]

Yeah... "I mount my dead girlfriend" just doesn't seem quite right for the whole knight thing? Good for a roll in the hay though.

Oooh, I wasn't even thinking of the puns......

[Gastronomie]

Extra Bonus Doubleplusgood Points: The horse calls the PC "senpai".And have her turn into a beautiful girl with a CHA of 20 every now and then

And you become a Mounted Combatant on her

[quinron]

I'd just let them spend some time and/or money to "level up" the horse and give it more hit dice. On top of giving it longer single-fight livability by granting more HP, it gains more long-term livability by letting it spend more hit dice on a short rest. This also gives the player a meaningful-yet-simple resource to manage for the player, making them feel like they're really taking care of the horse both in and out of character.

[Vogonjeltz]

Now, I read the argument that knights did lose horses in battle very often but we are talking about a mediaval fantasy story with level 10 fighters with 100hp here, not a realistic story (I'd play Warhammer or a reworked version of WoD for that).

Hit points aren't meat, they're just a measurement of how difficult something is to kill.

Horses in reality are extremely fragile creatures despite being large animals. If they fall wrong they can shatter their legs which proves lethal because they must walk to help circulate their blood.
http://www.livescience.com/32151-why-are-broken-bones-lethal-to-horses.html

If you want some kind of special mount, have them play a Paladin for Find Steed (the mount that always comes back) or pick up Mounted Combatant and magical barding for extra durability, or play a Beastmaster for 4x level hit points on the mount and a significant boost to AC.

[Sir cryosin]

Hit points aren't meat, they're just a measurement of how difficult something is to kill.

Horses in reality are extremely fragile creatures despite being large animals. If they fall wrong they can shatter their legs which proves lethal because they must walk to help circulate their blood.
http://www.livescience.com/32151-why-are-broken-bones-lethal-to-horses.html

If you want some kind of special mount, have them play a Paladin for Find Steed (the mount that always comes back) or pick up Mounted Combatant and magical barding for extra durability, or play a Beastmaster for 4x level hit points on the mount and a significant boost to AC.

Um horses can be fragile. But I work on a horse breeding farm and I've seen many horses get hurt. Just this year we had a horse run through a fence and had a 2×4 sticking out of its chest. The wound was so big I could stick my head inside. It alive and well to this day. I also go hunting and I seen deer run for miles and hours with one side if there body missing.

[djreynolds]

Okay help me out with this.

A paladin gets find steed and it is a celestial mount and allows for shared spell and it is possible that is can understand you like Lassie.

But the paladin can only have one beast at a time, so he can't have one for his buddy.

But the HP are like 20 or so, and ELK maxes out at 22. So unless you are fighting mooks, a couple of hits is going to dismount you.

Is there anything in the DMG about what can serve as a mount?

[pwykersotz]

Um horses can be fragile. But I work on a horse breeding farm and I've seen many horses get hurt. Just this year we had a horse run through a fence and had a 2×4 sticking out of its chest. The wound was so big I could stick my head inside. It alive and well to this day. I also go hunting and I seen deer run for miles and hours with one side if there body missing.

That's pretty hardcore.

[uraniumrooster]

Is there anything in the DMG about what can serve as a mount?

I'm AFB, but as far as I can recall, the only restriction is that the mount must be at least a size larger than the rider. It's the DM's judgement as to whether or not it can realistically be ridden and whether it requires any specialized equipment (an Exotic Saddle, for instance) to do so.

[Laurefindel]

(...) Of course giving said mount 22str and 24 con is a start (42hp if 10 for the first hd) because no way a strong warhorse has less stamina and power than a human but (...)

I'm not sure about humans having much less stamina than horses. Horses are pretty fragile animals in many respects, especially when it comes to nutrition, and humans can beat horses in endurance running.

That being said, I agree that 13 CON is a bit weak; I would set it more around 16-18 personally, but not beyond that of a fit human.

[Xetheral]

If the rider does take mounted combatant, consider at some point giving the mount the Sentinel feat as a special reward. Sure, controlled mounts can't take the attack action, but nothing stops them from using their feat-granted special attack whenever the rider redirects an attack to himself.

Normally this trick only works with Wildshaped Druids as the mount (and in that case is partially counter-productive unless the rider is as tanky as the druid) but since you're the DM there's no reason you couldn't let it work with a warhorse in your own game.

[Slipperychicken]

I'm not sure about humans having much less stamina than horses. Horses are pretty fragile animals in many respects, especially when it comes to nutrition, and humans can beat horses in endurance running.

Even just walking, humans could move much farther in a day than many animals. That's one theory for how prehistorical humans hunted their prey, just chasing them until the animal wears itself out and is too tired to defend itself. Also, I've heard arguments for humans in antiquity (and especially prehistorical hunter-gatherers) being much more physically robust than modern people.


I believe it has something to do with bipedal movement being more efficient than four-legged movement, even though the latter can achieve much faster short-term bursts. Also our ability to carry and eat food while moving helps our endurance tremendously: An animal has to stop to hunt or forage if it gets hungry, while a prepared person can keep moving with only relatively short stops to munch on food that was gathered earlier.

[djreynolds]

I'm confused, you can ride a horse for 30 miles a day. And some say they can move up to 60 miles a day, if properly trained and nourished and given breaks and walking not running.

20 miles, forced marched by a human is a long day indeed. And that might be all you are doing that day.

Yes there are extreme marathoners running and walking much further, but these are trained professionals or soldiers and they are beat afterwards.

D&D is a crazy world, but a real person walking 20 miles, is going to suffer from levels of exhaustion for sure.

[Sharur]

And have her turn into a beautiful girl with a CHA of 20 every now and then

And you become a Mounted Combatant on her

Or your mount could be a druid...who's a horse. Not wildshaped into a horse, actually a horse. That occasionaly wildshapes into human. This works as druids can't cast when wildshaped, and Druids don't get any spells that lack verbal and somatic components (that I'm aware of anyway).

Also, this helps with the HP problem: Wildshaped Moon Druids can expend spell slots as a bonus action to heal themselves.

[Goober4473]

My Companion System (see signature) also handles mounts in a more playable manner.