Wish twin repeat

[Dyslexic]

Can I cast a wish with the metamagic feat Twin and Repeat?
If I do this, I have 3 or 4 wish? (In the second round the repeat spell repeat the base spell or the twin spell?)

In both the interpretation is so cheap: Ok, is an epic spell, but I use only 5000 PE for 3 (or 4) wish spells.

Thank you.

[OldTrees1]

Is an Empowered Maximized Fireball 15*6 or 10*6+(10d6)/2? The rules explicitly say it is the latter.

Is Empower & Maximize a good analogy for Repeat & Twin? Only the DM can decide.

[Bakkan]

I rule that you can "chain" metamagic, that is, a metamagic feat can be applied to an already-metamagicked spell, using the modified properties. For instance, I rule that Searing Spell can be applied to an Energy Substitution (Fire) lightning bolt, since after the application of Energy Substitution, the spell does fire damage and hence qualifies for Searing Spell.

Using this ruling, either a Repeat (Twin wish) or a Twin (Repeat wish) gives you the same result: 2 wishes this round and 2 wishes the next.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Using this ruling, either a Repeat (Twin wish) or a Twin (Repeat wish) gives you the same result: 2 wishes this round and 4 wishes the next.
I have trouble seeing where you get the four future wishes from. Two this round, because Twin, sure. But four in the next, because...? It should be two this round, and then another two, because the first round is repeated.

[Bakkan]

Sorry, typo. I was thinking 2 next round for 4 total.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Sorry, typo. I was thinking 2 next round for 4 total.
Gotcha, I was 51% sure it was meant to be 2+2=4, but you never know, rules can be strange.

[nedz]

Do they have to have the same wording though ?

[Âmesang]

If so, it could prove handy for granting oneself inherit bonuses… quicker than normal? Like, a +4 over two rounds instead of four…

[LTwerewolf]

I'd rule you get three. The precedent that is set (mentioned by oldtrees) is that metamagics use additive effect stacking rather than multiplicative. Your repeat spell is repeating the original spell only because it's tied to the original spell. The fact that it was twinned the previous round is not pertinent. Repeat spell makes mention of casting the spell a second time the next round. It makes no mention whatsoever of working with other metamagics, treating the spell as a second casting, not a second modified casting. Due to this, even if it were a maximized spell the first round, it would not be in the second.

[Crake]

I'd rule you get three. The precedent that is set (mentioned by oldtrees) is that metamagics use additive effect stacking rather than multiplicative. Your repeat spell is repeating the original spell only because it's tied to the original spell. The fact that it was twinned the previous round is not pertinent. Repeat spell makes mention of casting the spell a second time the next round. It makes no mention whatsoever of working with other metamagics, treating the spell as a second casting, not a second modified casting. Due to this, even if it were a maximized spell the first round, it would not be in the second.

Honestly, the fact that it is explicitly stated in empower, and not a general rule elsewhere, would lead me to believe that empower+maximize is an exception, not a rule. Consider this: If you cast an empowered, energy substitution (Cold), repeat fireball, what happens? Do you get a 100% cold damage, 50% fire damage fireball followed by a 100% fire damage fireball? Or do you get two 150% cold damage fireballs? Because if all metamagics are explicitly separate from one another, the first circumstance would hold true, but I cannot imagine a single person who would rule it that way.

If you would say that an empowered, energy sub (cold) repeat fireball gives two 150% cold damage fireballs, then naturally a twin repeat wish should give 4 wishes.

[VisitingDaGulag]

I would. Unless you have a way to force an ordering, all metamagic is applied simultaneously.

Nice /thread OldTrees

[Calthropstu]

You get cheesed by the gm for trying to get too many wishes.

"I wish for this magic item to have these properties..." "Ok, it now has those properties. And is animated and tries to eat you. Roll initiative."

Wishes are fun, but once your players decide to start playing "let's all make tons of wishes!" it's time to put the brakes in. 4 may be ok. If all you're trying to do is get a stat bump or duplicate spells etc.

But once you start trying to break or cheese the game system, it's on.

[LTwerewolf]

You get cheesed by the gm for trying to get too many wishes.

"I wish for this magic item to have these properties..." "Ok, it now has those properties. And is animated and tries to eat you. Roll initiative."

Magic items are on the list of things wish can do without any backlash. If a dm tries this, the dm is being a prick. If they have a problem with players having multiple wishes, they can just tell the player without any of this ever happening.

[eggynack]

You get cheesed by the gm for trying to get too many wishes.

"I wish for this magic item to have these properties..." "Ok, it now has those properties. And is animated and tries to eat you. Roll initiative."

You do realize that it's breaking the explicit rules of the game to subvert such a wish, because said wish is one of the listed safe wishes, right? You must also realize that this situation doesn't even reach that level of plausible DM screwery, because the scope of the individual wishes, rather than your wish quantity, determines how unsafe a wish is, yeah? So, this hypothetical DM is just kinda baselessly screwing with players who are fully in the right. If the DM doesn't want all these wishes, they should just say, "While that maneuver is technically legal, performing it would break the game, which isn't worth the cost of keeping in line with the game rules. Make a wish that isn't like that." They shouldn't arbitrarily break the rules themselves, attacking players who rightfully assumed that the game works by the rules unless explicitly stated otherwise.

Edit: Also, to the OP, metamagic reduction means that you can probably pull this off with a standard 9th level slot. Lessee. Twin spell is a +4, and repeat spell is a +3. Toss on arcane thesis and that goes down to +3 and +2. Add practical metamagic and you're down to a total of +4. Add invisible spell for a +3, easy metamagic for +2, incantatrix for +1, and then you just need one more point of reduction. Not sure the ideal way to get rid of that last point, but I'm sure there's something out there. I guess miser with magic from kingdoms of kalamar is technically a metamagic and has no adjustment, so that could work.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Edit: Also, to the OP, metamagic reduction means that you can probably pull this off with a standard 9th level slot. Lessee. Twin spell is a +4, and repeat spell is a +3. Toss on arcane thesis and that goes down to +3 and +2. Add practical metamagic and you're down to a total of +4. Add invisible spell for a +3, easy metamagic for +2, incantatrix for +1, and then you just need one more point of reduction. Not sure the ideal way to get rid of that last point, but I'm sure there's something out there. I guess miser with magic from kingdoms of kalamar is technically a metamagic and has no adjustment, so that could work.
With Incantatrix 10, Arcane Thesis, and two Practical Metamagics, you're already down to a 10th-level slot - both Twin and Repeat are affected by the Incantatrix ability. Easy Metamagic is all you need at that point, but if you qualify, Halruaan Elder is better - metamagic reduction and Circle Magic, very nice.

If you have a second Incantatrix, such as with body outside body, you can use Cooperative Metamagic to apply Twin Spell, which saves you a feat on Practical Metamagic and gets rid of the last point.

[eggynack]

With Incantatrix 10, Arcane Thesis, and two Practical Metamagics, you're already down to a 10th-level slot - both Twin and Repeat are affected by the Incantatrix ability. Easy Metamagic is all you need at that point, but if you qualify, Halruaan Elder is better - metamagic reduction and Circle Magic, very nice.
Yeah, I'd always read that as a -1 to the spell, but rereading it makes it look a whole lot more like an arcane thesis.

[Anthrowhale]

Yeah, I'd always read that as a -1 to the spell, but rereading it makes it look a whole lot more like an arcane thesis.

Easy Metamagic + Arcane Thesis provides -2, one from easy metamagic itself and one from arcane thesis (because Easy Metamagic is metamagic). Hence Dweomerkeeper 10 + Arcane thesis + Easy Metamagic + Practical Metamagic makes it an L9 slot, and supernatural spell makes it cost no XP.