Enderal: A Skyrim Total Conversion Mod [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

veti

2016-08-25, 04:09 PM

Okay, you talked me into it.

First impressions:

Big. Took 3 hours to download. Then backing up the old folder took another half-hour on top of that. Sheesh, who knew there were 50,000 files in my Skyrim folder?
Nice launcher. It doesn't look any too slick and modern, but it does a great job installing and launching the game, better than Skyrim's own equivalent. Have yet to try uninstalling, but it's reassuring to see it there as an option.
First scene: gosh, this looks so much like Oblivion, right down to the oversaturated colour palette and the slightly grainy graphics quality. Without spoiling anything, though, there's a possible plot reason for those things.
Later scenes: a few bugs. I'm pretty sure I was supposed to be seeing a video, during that long-drawn-out black screen with stuttering sound. Also most of the loading screens are blank, which is a shame as I could really use some helpful tips on how the new game system works.
Overall: very professional effort. Quality voice acting, although accents are slightly inconsistent. Scenery is lovely - think of Oblivion's Cyradiil built with Skyrim's art assets, and that's approximately it.
Suggestion to the authors, if they should happen to see it: it'd be nice if someone would give me some directions for how to get where I'm meant to go, because neither the map nor the compass pointers are doing a very good job right now. In Morrowind people gave directions, including paths to follow and landmarks to watch out for; I know it'd take too long to record all that as dialogue, but you could write it to the journal, yesno?
Gripe: the user interface is changed just enough to be slightly confusing, without being noticeably better. The 'Skills' screen is gone, I get that, but instead of replacing it with some kind of character-sheet view, they've just cut the 'North' arrow off the compass completely, and instead you have to press 'H' to get your character sheet. That's - not an improvement, that's just change for its own sake, guys.

NRSASD

2016-08-25, 08:17 PM

First, the bad stuff I've run into so far:

*Since it uses a lot of character animation during cutscenes (walking, talking, praying etc, all outside of the normal conversation) sometimes it gets stuck. You have to bump them or give it 5-10 seconds to realize it needs to restart the animation. Nothing spoils a deep conversation with a friend like forgetting what you're saying part way through and staring blankly.

*Transitions during cutscenes (being knocked out, etc.) leads to the black loading screens. Most other loading scenes are fine though.

*Skyrim scripts (the white text that appears in the upper left) are still in German. As is the (extremely rare) piece of dialogue. Typos do exist, but not too many; I've only seen one case where the spoken english dialogue was wrong (he demented the gods' will...?)

*Occasionally ctds without warning. Thankfully it autosaves quite a lot so I've never lost more than 20 seconds of progress so far.

*The main quest dialogue options can be a little restrictive.

The big game mechanic changes:

* You no longer "learn-by-doing". All skills have to be raised through training books (which are easily found at stores), but it is the #1 expenditure for adventurers. I personally quite enjoy it, because I finally have a reason to scrounge for cash. I don't have oodles of money anymore, which makes the following point more intriguing.

* Regions, quests, and dungeons have a fixed difficulty. Stray off the beaten path and expect to get squished, but if you manage to survive you'll receive way more xp and treasure than you should be receiving at that level. Quests do come with a difficulty advisory and there is plenty of safer areas to level up in, so it's very feasible to level up regularly without ever facing a fight above your power level. I reeeaaally enjoy this, because it really drives the sense of exploration. Exploring is really quite dangerous, because you never know just what might be hiding around the next corner...

* You no longer heal outside of combat automatically. You have to eat food to regenerate health. I like it, but I loved the mods Frostfall and Realistic Needs and Diseases (because nothing says adventuring like dying of hypothermia and malnutrition :P) so your mileage may vary.

*No fast traveling, however teleportation spells and carriage transport exist and basically fulfill that role. With the spells Mark and Recall one can essentially fast travel.

The good stuff:
*Backs up all of your skyrim files so nothing gets deleted.

* The main storyline is vastly more complex than Skyrim's. It's got a deep psychological tone and very fleshed out characters. Can't really say more without spoilers, besides that it occasionally flirts with horror. It isn't horror, but it occasionally waves cheerily at the genre from across the divide.

*New everything. New lore, alchemical recipes, gear tiers, monsters, regions (including deserts and tropical rainforests), cities, races, etc. It's all out there and waiting to be found.

*Spell system is considerably more powerful and varied than Skyrim's. I'm still bitter about my purist mage who reached an unplayable state in skyrim due to magic balancing issues.

*Did I mention new cities? The capital of Ark rivals the Imperial City from Oblivion in size, and that's not counting the Undercity beneath it.

*Extremely good voice acting. Only really been disappointed with one actor so far, and there have been several that outclass skyrim's original cast. For that matter, one of Enderal's cast IS a former voice actor from Skyrim.

In summary:

I'm thoroughly enjoying Enderal. It feels like an entire new game instead of a mod.

NRSASD

2016-08-25, 08:20 PM

Corlindale

2016-08-26, 01:38 AM

I just played a bit yesterday, very impressed so far. I needed to adjust to the whole "there's no such thing as free healing", but I actually really, really like it. It makes the world feel much more real, somehow. Everything has a cost.

There was a moment when I was really low on health and happened upon a peaceful goat standing on the road. I actually caught myself mouthing "sorry", as I reluctantly used magic to drain its life to replenish my own.

NRSASD

2016-08-26, 03:20 AM

Welp, that was one hell of a twist. I previously wanted to discuss spoilers, but now I don't. It's far better to go in blind like I did. All I got to say is Enderal just surpassed Skyrim tenfold in my opinion. They both do open world stuff great, but Enderal has one insanely gripping story. Not for the faint of heart either.

ArlEammon

2016-08-26, 11:19 PM

For the people who are playing the game, where are you in the main quest line? I'd love to talk theories about the characters and the plot! I'm currently looking for the black stones, which is a fair bit after you reach Ark.

I am trying with all my might to get past Yeroll's house, but those wooden sticks always break before I can get through, can I get past it?

Yael

2016-08-27, 01:55 AM

I saw MMOXReview play it a couple of days ago, and it caught my eye.

I shall try it soon, and will sure share my experiences, here :smallbiggrin:

veti

2016-08-27, 03:51 AM

I am trying with all my might to get past Yeroll's house, but those wooden sticks always break before I can get through, can I get past it?

I found that completely doable. You just need to take time to plan your route around the holes.

The good:

The storyline - indeed, the whole world and lore - are excellent. (I haven't got very far in the storyline yet - trying to scrounge up some money and XP in Ark before moving on to the next stage - but loving it so far.)

Edit: also, the "no auto-healing" and "no fast travel" features? Loving those too. Would be happy to port them both to a Skyrim mod. And the "arcane fever" concept - nice touch, it really cuts down the appeal of magical self-healing.

I really like the revised "perk" trees. Three super-trees? - fantastic concept, I'd honestly like to see that as a standalone mod for Skyrim proper (it'd be a big enterprise because it would mean re-statting every NPC in the game, although there are shortcuts for most of them). Decoupling perks from skill levels? - not so sure about that. And that brings me to my main gripe:

The bad:

I'm hating the whole "skill books" thing. Hating it with a passion. It batters away constantly at my immersion. Why is it that no matter how much I sneak, I never get any better at sneaking, unless I can find someone shifty enough to sell me a library of books about it? Not a cheap library, either - it costs 800 GP to get any skill from its starting point of 15 up to 25 (top of Apprentice level) - at level 6, I haven't gotten any of them there yet. Above "Apprentice" level, it starts to get expensive.

And why are apparently-respectable, Path-abiding merchants willing to sell me skills and spells that are described as "forbidden"?

NRSASD

2016-08-27, 02:38 PM

I am trying with all my might to get past Yeroll's house, but those wooden sticks always break before I can get through, can I get past it?

I found that starting from the top was easier, cause then you just drop down to the lower floor instead of running up the ramp in the back.

@veti If you're short on cash the catacombs in Ark (entered through the Barracks quarter) are a great source. So are the Farmer's Coast and bounty quests.

Anteros

2016-08-27, 08:26 PM

Do I need the expansions for this to work? And does if effect the base game or will I still be able to play? Some people have posted theories about it, but it'd be nice to have confirmation.

veti

2016-08-27, 09:07 PM

Do I need the expansions for this to work? And does if effect the base game or will I still be able to play? Some people have posted theories about it, but it'd be nice to have confirmation.

Expansions are completely irrelevant, it throws away the whole world of Skyrim and starts over from a blank slate. You don't need anything except the base game (up to date version).

As far as I can tell, the installation process backs up your old folders and then replaces them with its own materials. So you can't have both Skyrim and Enderal installed side by side. Switching between the two means (back up the one) and (restore the other), which is always likely to take a good several minutes - actual time probably depends on how many mods you've got in Skyrim.

Anteros

2016-08-27, 09:48 PM

Thanks. It seems pretty interesting. I wish I'd have known about this a week or so ago when I actually had free time.

Malacronious

2016-08-27, 11:37 PM

Yeah I actually just heard about this last night. Looks pretty cool. My current issue is that despite owning two past copies of the game for PS3 and one copy on PC along with countless gameplay hours played, I have never actually finished the game. :O

I have modded that crap out of Skyrim though and although I would love to get to Enderal, I need to at least get through the main quest line and probably tackle Moonpath to Elsweyr before that. Oh I also need to get through the Dragonborn DLC. So needless to say I've got my work cut out for me and little time / motivation.

Corlindale

2016-08-28, 12:50 AM

Why do you need to finish base Skyrim first? This is a completely alternate story with a completely new player character.

I never finished Skyrim (in fact I've never finished a Scrolls game period), but I'm really enjoying this mod. I'm also way more invested in this storyline so far.

Anteros

2016-08-28, 01:52 AM

I was enjoying it, but after about an hour I started getting a lot of missing textures. The game is playable, but it's annoying enough to make me not want to bother. I'm going to try uninstalling, verifying skyrim, and reinstalling but if that doesn't fix it I'll have to drop it.

veti

2016-08-28, 05:34 AM

NRSASD

2016-08-28, 09:03 AM

So, I've found - enough bugs to annoy me. Not enough to stop me playing, but still...

For instance, about Mayor Featherwall... when I tell him his wife was bonking his brother, he makes a completely reasonable speech about how he can't process it all right now but he's glad she's better. And just sits there. The quest arrow continues to point to him, there's no update to the journal.

It looks for all the world like a script that's failed to fire. But what? Anyone know what's supposed to happen here? And how I can get my XP for completing the quest?

I had the same problem, and yeah, the script forgot to fire. He's supposed to give you a key and tell you to go loot his lockbox downstairs. Reloading ought to trigger the missing script this time. Unlocking and looting the lockbox via console might finish the quest too. I couldn't start the quest initially because the mayor was trapped inside a bookcase and I couldn't talk to him, but thankfully they've patched that.

Missing textures? That's very odd, cause I have yet to see one.

Anteros

2016-08-28, 10:56 AM

I'm going to delete everything and try a clean skyrim install to see if it fixes. Quite a few people online seem to be having the problem but no clear answer yet. I'll find out if it's fixed tonight after work. It seems to happen mostly around smoke, dust, and water.

NRSASD

2016-08-28, 10:59 PM

Welp, I finished it. Even though the poor Skyrim engine was crying by the end of it, it was absolutely worth it. Bugs and all. It's rather embarrassing to say it, but the main questline is up there in the lofty heights of best stories ever in my book. EVERYTHING is there for a reason, every single story element and even most of the gameplay mechanics. It's almost unreal just how stupendous a game this is, especially considering it's essentially a love letter to Skyrim. Now excuse me, I need to go curl up into the fetal position and rock back and forth while I try to comprehend what I just played.

veti

2016-08-29, 07:44 PM

I had the same problem, and yeah, the script forgot to fire. He's supposed to give you a key and tell you to go loot his lockbox downstairs. Reloading ought to trigger the missing script this time. Unlocking and looting the lockbox via console might finish the quest too. I couldn't start the quest initially because the mayor was trapped inside a bookcase and I couldn't talk to him, but thankfully they've patched that.

Thanks for the suggestions, but no dice.

Reloading doesn't work. I've tried: having the same conversation over and over, taking different conversational branches, reloading, reloading again, going and doing a whole other quest and coming back... Nothing helps.

As for unlocking and looting his lockbox: what lockbox? I've rummaged pretty thoroughly downstairs, there's nothing that looks at all like a lockbox. Maybe that's the problem.

As a last resort, can you by any chance tell me how to get the quest out of my journal?

NRSASD

2016-08-29, 08:31 PM

The lockbox (also known as a jewelry box) should be sitting on the table downstairs, the one he's using as a desk. It's quite small. Another thing you could try is to open the console, select the mayor, type recycleactor, and press enter. Do this as a last resort! As for just completing the quest via console, I know it can be done but we need the quest id number and the end stage number, which I'm not sure how to find.

veti

2016-08-29, 10:27 PM

Thanks, I'll look again.

For messing with the quest in the console, it looks like the commands I need are 'sqt' and 'sqs'. There's also 'completequest', which means I don't even have to know the final stage. I'll try some combination of these.

Anteros

2016-08-30, 12:24 AM

Updating my drivers seems to have fixed the texture issue I was having. Which is strange since vanilla skyrim never had these problems, but oh well.

Welp, I finished it. Even though the poor Skyrim engine was crying by the end of it, it was absolutely worth it. Bugs and all. It's rather embarrassing to say it, but the main questline is up there in the lofty heights of best stories ever in my book. EVERYTHING is there for a reason, every single story element and even most of the gameplay mechanics. It's almost unreal just how stupendous a game this is, especially considering it's essentially a love letter to Skyrim. Now excuse me, I need to go curl up into the fetal position and rock back and forth while I try to comprehend what I just played.

So how long would you say the whole thing is? I just got to Yerrol's house, and I'm wondering how much gameplay is ahead of me.

I have to say that I'm impressed with the mod so far. It feels more like an official expansion than a mod, and even most of the voice acting is well done. The intro was pretty cliche and it's frustrating you can't skip through the dialogue there, but I'm enjoying it a lot more now that I'm out in the world.

Corlindale

2016-08-30, 01:58 AM

Downloading the latest couple of updates fixed a couple of minor quest glitches for me - I haven't been back to Riverville to check if it worked for the Mayor quest, though.

I really like the mod so far. I'm just hanging around Ark doing various bounties and sidequest right now, it really seems they put a lot of effort into quest design and world-building.

As for Ark, I really like what they did with the Undercity. It would have been so easy to make it the fantasy cliché of the "cool and edgy" rogue fortress, but instead it's just a really, really sad place full of poverty, drunkards, beggars and disease victims. The way they did the music and the lightning really supports this atmosphere too. Very well designed!

I agree that most of the voice-acting is really good quality (with the main exception being the unbelievably annoying child voices they sometimes use).

What builds is everyone playing?

I'm doing a combination of Thaumaturge and Sinistrope so far, focusing on Light Magic and Entropy. It feels very thematic for a Necromancer-style character to burn off life force to power offensive Entropy spells and then leech that life force right back with Light Magic. Dimensional Rift is also amazingly good so far. It instakills ordinary mages, and even against non-mages it's really potent crowd control. I have yet to meet anything that resisted it.

veti

2016-08-30, 02:53 AM

For anyone else who gets stuck at the very end of the Mayor's quest, the console command you need is:

setstage NQ15 250

That gives you the XP award for finishing, the mayor's key, and it causes the mayor's strongbox - which didn't exist until I did that - to materialise on his desk.

Build-wise, I started initially with an elementalist/conjurer. That was very powerful, but then I realised that what I really wanted to be playing was the character I pretty much always play on my first run through any game, a fighter/rogue. So I restarted from a save just after meeting Jespar for the first time.

And now I'm worried about balance issues with the perk - sorry, I mean 'memory' - trees. Because before I got 'Fire Arrow', I was really struggling to kill routine enemies like trolls and spiders without getting pummelled and having to quaff a couple of potions. But with Fire Arrow, even at Tier 1, it feels way overpowered. I'll see how it goes once I re-reach Ark.

NRSASD

2016-08-30, 07:41 AM

@Anteros: You've got a lot of story to pursue : ). Honestly, if you sprint through the main quest line and do nothing else, I'd say you have at least 25 hours ahead of you. I spent about 70 wandering around the mod altogether.

@Corlindale: Yeah, that's my favorite part of Ark too. And the more you learn about it the more screwed up you realize it is.

@veti: Thanks! I might need to use that on my next playthrough, once I've recovered from my first one. Yeah, fire arrow is extremely good because it adds 5 damage on top of whatever arrow you were already using, not to mention the burn over time. If it gets too easy you might want to up the difficulty. For me expert difficulty hit the sweet spot.

I ran a light armor sword and shield guy, with archery as a back up. Basically spent my career dashing in, flailing at enemies, and running before they could retaliate. My girlfriend played as an elementarist and electrocuted her way through everything because shock nova is an insane perk haha.

veti

2016-09-07, 02:43 AM

I want to like Enderal, I truly do. There's a lot to like in it. But also a lot to put me off.

I haven't finished the main quest yet, partly for reasons touched on below, but my impressions are:

The Good:
The Enderal crew have done what Bethesda never managed - made a world that feels large, and a city that feels like a city. Simply taking out the option of regular fast travel transforms the game. Ark is far bigger and more populated than any city in any Bethesda game I've seen.

Worldbuilding is lovely. The depth of lore is impressive, and I appreciate the time someone's been to to write all these books.

With one notable exception, I'm also a fan of the game-mechanics changes. Blueprints. Requiring a variety of materials to make weapons. Using food to regain health. The much-lower bonuses from enchanting, alchemy, spells and perks. The travel system, with particular reference to the lack of fast travel. And I really like the perk overhaul. I'd love to see all of these as standalone mods for Skyrim.

The voice acting - for adults, at least - is excellent. So is the music.

The social and political worldbuilding is - OK. I mean, it's good, but it's a bit two-dimensional. Could use more factions.

The Bad:
I've never been much of a fan of experience points, and even less of skill books. From what I gather, XP was inserted mostly as a means of rewarding the player for visiting locations, reading books, following obviously-dumb dialogue options... in other words, railroading. That's boring on a first playthrough, and I imagine will make replaying pretty much unendurable.

Loading screens. Dear Malphas, the loading screens. Why? If I have to spend more than 15 seconds looking at a loading screen, it's too slow. Some of these last a good couple of minutes.

The Ugly:
Why are all the people of Ark so glum? When one person says "I just don't see the f-wording point", I wonder at first if it's a cue for a plot hook. When the 30th person says it within the space of half an hour, it's just f-wording depressing.

Why can't I look at a blueprint and see what materials I need to make something? Instead of taking it all the way to a forge, and only then finding out that I don't have what I need.

I get that making navigation harder is part of making the world feel larger. But it also highlights the deficiencies of Skyrim's map. It's generally quite impossible to tell, from the map, how you can approach any given target. That's gratuitously annoying, because surely the questgiver could have just told me that sort of thing, if I had the option to ask them.

I was genuinely shocked and upset at the death of whats-her-name, the Nehrimese chick who cast the ritual to cure my arcane fever (which seemed to make no difference whatsoever, by the way). I would much rather conduct a liaison with her than that tiresome Mary Sue who's been cast in the female-romance role, but... that seems pretty unlikely at this point.

Anteros

2016-09-07, 01:31 PM

I think I've only had one loading screen that took that long, and I'm pretty sure it was a bug. It may be related to your settings.

I personally like the experience system, but the skill trees need major refinement. The vast majority of the skill unlocks are pointless. It also doesn't make sense to pd things like pigeonhole you into being an archer if you want to pick locks.

Also, rhetoric seems a million times better than every other crafting option. I like that it's harder to break the game with crafting now though.

The main thing that I'm enjoying is that it actually feels enjoyable to explore again. You never know if you're about to wander into something completely crazy, and you can often be rewarded for your risk taking. The level scaling in Skyrim and Oblivion completely ruined exploration.

I just got to this point in the story as well.

I was actually somewhat relieved that she died. Her voice acting is probably the worst of all the adult characters.

NRSASD

2016-09-07, 04:55 PM

Regarding xp, you also get experience for crafting, finding magic symbols, and fighting, which covers all of the actions in the game...? Not sure how that supports railroading (anymore so than access to higher tier treasure), but to each their own. I liked it.

Yeah, some of the skill unlocks are placed in odd places on the tree. Thankfully though, there aren't many adept+ locks outside of cities, and there are always Ondusi's scrolls of unlocking for emergencies. I really liked the blademaster tree myself. The Qyranian battle stance made a lightly armored swordmaster waaaay more viable than it has ever been in Skyrim.

As far as voice acting is concerned, the only person I really wanted to throttle was a merchant out in the wilderness near Riverville, but some of the voice actors are spot on. Exhibit A: Tealor.

I agree completely with what Anteros says about exploring, although I also agree, Skyrim's map is awful.

Poor Lushishi will live forever on in our hearts, even though we might never remember her actual name. I liked her and she was fun, but her swearing was a little tiresome. I get it, you're angry. Take a deep breath and chill out for a moment...

If you guys are about to start the trio of Black Stone quests, my suggestion is to save the "Song of Silence" for last. The other two have followup quests that should be done before the Song of Silence in my opinion, though the followups aren't main plot relevant.

Also, the Song of Silence has, and I do not say this lightly, the worst designed section of the game. You have to do a stealth mission (thankfully short) where you can't CROSS a guard's cone of vision. Not be detected by, just move in the general vicinity of. Invisibility will not help. If you guys want help, please ask, cause it took me about 30 minutes to figure out what the heck they wanted me to do and I love the original Thief games. Once that stealth mission is over the rest of the quest is great, but that stealth segment is abysmal.

Anteros

2016-09-07, 09:00 PM

The Qyranian battle stance made a lightly armored swordmaster waaaay more viable than it has ever been in Skyrim.

Are you sure this actually works for you? I have 3 points in it, but there's no noticeable difference when I activate it, and the tooltip says it's only giving me a 1% increase.

I even checked with and without it with a stopwatch and it's the same speed.

veti

2016-09-07, 10:25 PM

Yep, I've been playing with the Qyranian stance thing, and I don't really feel the difference either. But it's kinda hard to tell for sure in the general confusion of a melee. I wish there were some visible indicator of when I was in the stance, so I'd know when the effect "switches off" - pretty sure it does when the melee ends, but how about "when your immediate opponents are dead but there are more enemies some distance away who are either moving toward you or shooting at you" - does that cancel it? Seems to, but I'm really not sure.

About the loading screens: does anyone else have a problem with these? In Skyrim they're of the order of 10-15 seconds, but in Enderal they're between 5 and 10 times longer. If anyone can suggest any settings I can change that might affect that, I'm agog, because it's my single biggest gripe with this game right now. I've taken to planning travel routes with the sole object of minimising loading screens, and at this point it's seriously intrusive.

And for "annoying voice", I vote for "every merchant who says 'No, I just put them out for you to look at'." That got old real fast.

Anteros

2016-09-07, 11:09 PM

I'm like 99% sure the stance does nothing, at least in my version of the game. There's a bug fix for it on the nexus site, but I don't care enough to install it.

I agree that line is annoying. It's not bad voice acting, but it gets old hearing it every time you want to sell something. I started avoiding those merchants.

As far as load times go, I'm not sure exactly what you can change. I can tell you that I'm personally playing on a slightly less than optimal resolution because I found the game performed much better that way for me. Maybe try lowering yours a bit if you can stand it. I also play with grass turned off out of personal preference, so that probably helps too.

Cozzer

2016-09-08, 02:39 AM

Hmm... I have Skyrim, but I never did much with it because the game became very boring for me after a while, especially storywise. This "mod" might make the game worth the money I've spent on it. :P It looks very interesting, especially after reading your previous comments about how good the story is.

Or, even better, I could wait and play other games in my backlog while the devs fix the worst bugs and then play this.

veti

2016-09-08, 03:34 AM

Or, even better, I could wait and play other games in my backlog while the devs fix the worst bugs and then play this.

As you like, obviously, but keep in mind the mod is non-commercial and there's no telling when the devs are going to be pulled off bugfixing and set to work on something that might pay a few bills...

It's playable now, it just got a new patch last night, but I wouldn't expect the patches to keep coming much longer.

Temotei

2016-09-08, 04:51 AM

About the loading screens: does anyone else have a problem with these? In Skyrim they're of the order of 10-15 seconds, but in Enderal they're between 5 and 10 times longer. If anyone can suggest any settings I can change that might affect that, I'm agog, because it's my single biggest gripe with this game right now. I've taken to planning travel routes with the sole object of minimising loading screens, and at this point it's seriously intrusive.

The loading screen upon loading for the first time in Skyrim is 10-15 seconds for me, everything else is probably 5 or less.

Enderal's loading screens are all about 15-20 seconds. So, yeah, they're a little long. I don't mind them too much but it does get kind of annoying in Ark, for example (though they tend to be somewhat shorter there, mercifully).

veti

2016-09-17, 02:27 AM

Well, I finally finished this thing.

Bummer.

But the good news is, there's really no reason to finish the main quest at all. Just like in Skyrim, you can have a lot of fun bumming around the world completing minor quests, and there's no real downside to just ignoring the main plot completely.

Apart from the need to Know What Happens, I guess. But now I know that, it shouldn't bother me too much.

The plot makes a lot more sense than Skyrim's, not that that's a very high bar to clear. I love that the ending up and frankly tells me "you've been maliciously railroaded" - I was thinking "You're telling me, I've been feeling that for 40 levels". I like the acting and storytelling. There are only three major plot holes - sorry, I mean "unexplained plot points" - that really bug me at this point:

One: who is the veiled woman? If she was with the High Ones, why did she help me at the end? If she wasn't, why did she appear at the beginning and put the whole thing in motion to start with?

Two: same question about the aged man. Who he? What he? Why he?

Three: everything about Yuslin, or whatever his name was. His motivation doesn't make sense. Even allowing for his motivation, his actions don't make sense. And how was he able to kill a resourceful, decently-levelled mage - who must have been looking out for him - in a crowded inn, without anyone even noticing?

Compared with Skyrim, that's a pretty clean slate.

My feelings about the changes to the game system are the same as they were when I last wrote on the subject. I like everything except the levelling/skills system and the "skill books" thing. I mean, I get that they make it harder to max out your skills (because high-level books are obscenely expensive and also moderately rare, so you have to hunt around for them even if you've got the cash). But that doesn't justify the awkwardness of the whole mechanic.

However: I don't think I'm going to replay Enderal anytime soon. First, because the whole world - irrespective of the plot - is just so damn' depressing. I wasn't surprised to see, in the end credits, that they'd borrowed a lot of assets from the Witcher series - that explains a lot about the atmosphere of the world. And second, because the main quest - which is the only way to get any meaningful character development and interaction - is an agonisingly long and sometimes tedious slog, punctuated by the frequent deaths of everyone you've come to give a damn about.

Storytelling-wise, it's streets ahead of Skyrim. But in the "feel good about yourself" stakes, not so much. The sense of railroading is (for me, at least) much stronger than in Skyrim (with one or two exceptions, like the guild questlines in that game), and now I know the railroad doesn't go to my happy place, so frankly I'd rather not board it again.

NRSASD

2016-09-17, 08:55 AM

Glad you liked it! I agree, the world is really dark, but I enjoy that. It wasn't the needlessly stupidly "dark" of some settings *cough40kcough*, and I personally thought the endings were honestly quite hopeful, in admittedly different ways.

I also concur though, I'm not replaying Enderal anytime soon either. I need to let a year or two elapse before diving back in, and hopefully they'll have fleshed out more of the world by that point. The devs have stated they want to add at least one, maybe two guild storylines; one of which is focused on the Undercity. Probably more dark stories, but I'm not complaining : ).

I'm a tremendous sucker for self-fulfilling prophecies, and this one managed to avoid having a contrived ending, which is fantastic. The good guys lost, like they always do, by letting their judgement be hampered by their pride. If they only knew just one more piece of info (the blast radius of the beacon), the Cycle would end forever. But they don't quite get it, and the Cycle endures. We reap, you sow.

Also, the amount of foreshadowing in this game is blatantly insane. For example, remember that creepy mannequin that shows up on the table when the High Ones first talk to you? How would you describe it? A mangled human figure lifting itself up, or should I say, uplifting itself? It's a literal description of what the High Ones are waaaaay before anyone else knows about it, but disguised in such a way that the player doesn't realize it at the time. I'm so impressed that the devs pulled that off, especially considering this is a 5-10 person team in Germany who built this in their spare time.

First, a question of my own. What ending did you choose and why?

As to your questions:
1. The veiled woman is almost certainly a literal manifestation of Fate, although a better name for her might be Destiny. The whole plot of the previous game, Nehrim, was about killing the Lightborn cause they were jerks. Once you kill them though, you learn that this kicks off the Cycle, and so to avoid the unknown-yet-presumably-bad Cleansing, you hunt down and kill the actual physical manifestation of Fate. At the end of Nehrim this seems to work, but in Enderal two years later everything seems to be back on track.

Why is the Cycle back on course after the thing holding it together died? Because the Universe generated a new one, since the Veiled Woman is a literal force of nature. This time though, whether she glitched or is so new, she has emotion, and that lets your character tweak the ending.

If you've read Book 1 of the Butcher of Ark, she shows up in that one as well over 200 years before the game starts. Not to mention she is the spitting image of Fate in Nehrim. This is my theory at least, but it seems to fit so far.

2. I think I know who the Aged Man is, and if I'm right I'm very sad. Let's talk about who he is and what he has:

a. He's absurdly powerful, but spends his time chilling in his manor and making creepy mannequins.
b. The Order was warned by the Lightborn themselves to stay away from him and never acknowledge his existence.
c. One of the rooms of his house has three sets of statues, all corresponding to the three Blackstone quests. A disfigured child with a weird face and leg; a man and a child sitting at a table together, but the child has a hole in her heart; a man being knocked prone by a woman who is about to kill him.
d. He has a creepy preserved lady in a cryo tube who believes very strongly in something good and hopeful.
e. He has the Word of the Dead, an arguably pivotal artifact in the Cleansing.
f. He knows a lot about the Cleansing, but doesn't lift a finger to stop it (besides giving you the Word of the Dead).
G.The Aged Man describes himself as "a Fleshless eye".

I hope like anything I'm wrong, but I think he's a Prophet who escaped the Cycle. One who took the option the Black Guardian proposed before the Black Guardian was even a thing. One who watched the Cycle happen again and again and again. One who took his lady love and tried to reshape humanity into something better, but failed.

3. I think Yuslin's motives are sound, because it drives home Tealor's flaws. Tealor tells you at one point that his greatest regret was that massacre in Qyra, not because he was sad all the innocent people died, but because he failed as a commander. The fear of failure is why this round of the Cleansing happens, and Yuslin is the product of the singleminded pursuit of that fear. If Tealor had helped the survivors, or donated lots of money, or become a pacifist, or even apologized, Yuslin wouldn't have a motive anymore. But he never did.

Yuslin understood that the fear of failure was Tealor's greatest flaw (probably cause the High Ones told him) and wanted to get back at him in the most thorough way possible: by making Tealor fail at his life's mission, right on the cusp of victory.

What he did to the Numinos, I'm not really sure. And how he got the drop on Lushishi, who by rights should have made one hell of a racket at the very least, I have absolutely no idea. Magic maybe...? : ) *shrug

veti

2016-09-17, 05:02 PM

I'm less impressed with the foreshadowing. That sort of thing isn't hard if you just stick to the script you've written, and a small team is actually a lot easier to keep on track for that sort of enterprise than a larger one. Particularly if there are no immediate economic pressures to finish on a strict schedule.

Also, the first time the High Ones were supposed to be speaking to me? I think that must be the scene that glitched out when I played it. All I got was a prolonged black screen, with a heavily stuttering soundtrack. Went on for ages. I saw the mannequin you mention in lots of online shots, and kept wondering when it was going to appear.

I chose the Sacrifice ending, for all sorts of reasons.

First: the Black Guardian's alternative suggestion seemed incredibly weak to me. "Become a god and guide humanity such that they don't suffer from ambition and hubris" struck me as - well, isn't that pretty much what the Lightborn, and Malphas in particular, tried to do? Yeah, why should I imagine I could pull that off? His suggestion was basically synonymous with "giving up", at which point - what the heck had I been sweating my guts out all this time for?

Second, even if it did work, it would mean - at best - several centuries of hanging around bored out of my immortal skull, with nothing to do but bicker with Calia, assuming she was immortal too, and frankly I'm not sure which prospect - her being immortal, or her promptly dying on me - sounded more depressing.

Third, I'm conditioned by generations of games to believe firmly that self-sacrifice is always the "correct" ending. And quite often you end up surviving it anyway. (Broken Steel, I'm looking at you.) It seemed to me there was quite a reasonable chance that the BG was either lying, or just plain wrong, when he said there was no way I could survive it. Even now I'm quite disappointed that I didn't.

The veiled woman - you may be right. I never played Nehrim.

The aged man - if you're right, then he's another reason I made the right choice. But now you've drawn the connection, it occurs to me that he could also have been a projection/manifestation of the Black Guardian. Didn't he say something about having ways to see into the world?

Yuslin - we'll just have to agree to differ on that. To me he has by far the weakest characterisation of any main character.

Anteros

2016-09-17, 05:40 PM

I'm pretty close to the ending myself, so I'm not opening those spoiler boxes. I think I'm right up against the point of no return though, and I'm looking for suggestions on things to do before I finish the game.

I'm gonna put these in spoilers just in case anyone is reading who doesn't want to spoil potential dungeons and things, but there's no plot spoilers here.

So I've already done
The dragon. Honestly, this was the most fun I had the entire game. It probably had something to do with being extremely low level and unexpected.

Thalgard. The Sunborn actually surprised me with how tough they are compared to every other enemy in the game.

Some of the myths and legends. I'm not really sure if hunting them down is worth it honestly. You don't seem to get anything, and the fights aren't even difficult or fun. Do you guys think I should bother finishing it?

The Myrad. I'm actually hunting this guy down next, but I'll have it done soon.

Edit: Well the Myrad was disappointing. The 2 boneclaws by the nest were tougher than him. Plus, he doesn't drop anything.

Can you guys think of any "can't miss" dungeons or quests I should hit up before the end? I know I could just load a save and go back, but I also know myself and that I won't bother doing that once I get to the ending.

Anteros

2016-09-24, 03:23 AM

So I finally got around to finishing this. Here's my thoughts on the ending if anyone still cares.

First off, the railroading is frustrating. I realized about 3 milliseconds after the beacon was mentioned the first time that it was going to be the cause of the cleansing. Every single generation builds it right before they are cleansed, and it's powered by super evil magic stones? Who actually thinks that's a good idea?? Why is everyone so stupid??

Tealor was a jerk and I wanted to tell him off all game, but never got the chance. His city is awful, and he does nothing to fix it. They even have a plan to genocide the Undercity if they ever get tired of living like slaves. Also, like 90% of the problems we have can be traced back to his stupidity. Destroying the Lightborn? Starting the war? Building the Beacon? It's all on him. Why is he so stupid?

The betrayal was incredibly predictable. The guy was literally at the scene when one of your closest companions got murdered! How is this not suspicious?? How are you going to trust him with the defense of the city? How are you going to trust him with the one item we need to save the world?? WHY IS EVERYONE SO STUPID???

The ending itself was fine. I did sacrifice as my "canon" ending, and then went back and did escape just to see it. I can't see sacrificing millions of people when it's avoidable.

The plan for escape is dumb anyway. Why would I go to the trouble of trying to mold humanity for thousands of years when I could just build a new beacon and use the proper target instead? It's not like I don't know exactly where to find everything I'd need to do it.

Final thoughts: The overall game was definitely worth playing. I'd even go so far as to say it was better than Skyrim itself. The world, plot (despite a few holes), voice acting, and companions were all miles ahead of anything Bethesda has ever done.

veti

2016-09-24, 05:00 AM

I can see where you're coming from, although I think you're a bit harsh. I didn't pre-guess as well as you.

Out of curiosity: what level were you when you finished?

Anteros

2016-09-24, 05:54 PM

I can see where you're coming from, although I think you're a bit harsh. I didn't pre-guess as well as you.

Out of curiosity: what level were you when you finished?

Either somewhere in the high 40s or low 50s. I know I eventually stopped using books and memory points because there was no point.

Edit: Just checked and I was 54.

Temotei

2016-09-24, 05:56 PM

Either somewhere in the high 40s or low 50s. I know I eventually stopped using books and memory points because there was no point.

Yeah, honestly, I had 27 One-Handed for a long time and went through some dungeons filled with equipment far above the stuff I found before. Like, three or four tiers above. Now I have 75 because of those dungeons giving me so much money, but I don't feel like it's necessary to have skill levels very high, let alone character level (which doesn't affect much).

Anteros

2016-09-24, 06:12 PM

Yeah, honestly, I had 27 One-Handed for a long time and went through some dungeons filled with equipment far above the stuff I found before. Like, three or four tiers above. Now I have 75 because of those dungeons giving me so much money, but I don't feel like it's necessary to have skill levels very high, let alone character level (which doesn't affect much).

It doesn't. You only get something like 1 point of damage or mitigation for every 10 points in the relevant skill. It can be somewhat meaningful if you consider things like sneak attack bonuses, but mostly useless outside of that. The most important things would be having enough mana to cast the spells you want, and enough health to survive one or two arrows/spells per fight.

There are plenty of optional dungeons towards the end that are way tougher than the main quest, if you're finding things too easy though.

Temotei

2016-09-24, 08:17 PM

It doesn't. You only get something like 1 point of damage or mitigation for every 10 points in the relevant skill. It can be somewhat meaningful if you consider things like sneak attack bonuses, but mostly useless outside of that. The most important things would be having enough mana to cast the spells you want, and enough health to survive one or two arrows/spells per fight.

There are plenty of optional dungeons towards the end that are way tougher than the main quest, if you're finding things too easy though.

I upped the difficulty to Master and some mages/monsters are threats so it's cool since they seem fairly common and magic resistance is far less common in Enderal than in Skyrim. Is it really only one point of damage per 10? Huh. Kind of sad.

I should probably do the main quest though. I feel like playing Skyrim proper again and when I installed Enderal the High Res Texture Packs got moved/uninstalled or something.

EDIT: How is light magic/thaumaturgy at higher levels? It seems right now to be mostly buffs, which is fine, but I was kind of hoping light magic would have some sort of offensive abilities eventually. Haven't seen any yet.

Anteros

2016-09-24, 09:13 PM

I upped the difficulty to Master and some mages/monsters are threats so it's cool since they seem fairly common and magic resistance is far less common in Enderal than in Skyrim. Is it really only one point of damage per 10? Huh. Kind of sad.

I should probably do the main quest though. I feel like playing Skyrim proper again and when I installed Enderal the High Res Texture Packs got moved/uninstalled or something.

EDIT: How is light magic/thaumaturgy at higher levels? It seems right now to be mostly buffs, which is fine, but I was kind of hoping light magic would have some sort of offensive abilities eventually. Haven't seen any yet.

I don't think there are any offensive light magic spells. I never ran across any at least. I did Elementism at lower levels and transitioned to sneak/dual wield fairly early. The light magic perks seem pretty sub-par except for the one that heals you and staggers everything when you're about to die.

The only magic that I felt stayed relevant all the way through the game was summoning, but that could just be because it synergized with my build. I may have had more luck with the other trees if I actually put points there.