Kubo and the Two Strings

[huttj509]

It's out in the US. It's good, and I highly recommend it.

First trailer is here. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4-6qJzeb3A) And after watching that trailer you're likely sold one way or the other. It is a good representation of the film, and is not one of the "mutter mutter lying trailers" we've encountered recently.

[tomwalker154]

OMG! I am really looking forward to this movie!!!!!
I love this kind of animation!

[Lacuna Caster]

I saw a much more kid-friendly trailer about 2 months' back in CA, and the reviews have been promising. I'll try to catch it, though I don't think it's showing yet overseas.

[Ravian]

Just came back from it.

Jesus Christ that was absolutely gorgeous.

Animation was amazing, Music was beautiful as well.

Very emotional movie as well, I tend to be an easy sell for that, but this was still something else.

Thank god that I didn't end the Summer with Suicide Squad being the last movie I saw.

[Razade]

The story was kinda weak at the end but the animation was really dang good. The faces moved a little weird at times though. Saw it in Dolby Surround Sound and high def and I'd recommend it that way. All the colors popped. Laika is doing some good work with more mature themes in kid movies.

[huttj509]

The story was kinda weak at the end but the animation was really dang good. The faces moved a little weird at times though. Saw it in Dolby Surround Sound and high def and I'd recommend it that way. All the colors popped. Laika is doing some good work with more mature themes in kid movies.

I think the one thing that bugged me about the animation was it was inconsistent. Sometimes it was really smooth, and sometimes it was jerky (understandable with stop motion). I found it most noticeable in lips and mouths sometimes.

Loved everything else though.

[Razade]

I think the one thing that bugged me about the animation was it was inconsistent. Sometimes it was really smooth, and sometimes it was jerky (understandable with stop motion). I found it most noticeable in lips and mouths sometimes.

Loved everything else though.

Yeah, I'd agree over all. I think it struck out to me more because everything else was so smooth. You can really see the weird mouth movements in the first scene in town with the old woman.


Also, since no one has mentioned, the cover of My Guitar Gently Weeps was really impressive. I really dislike the Beatles over all but it's my favorite song of theirs and the cover was pretty great with the shamisen.

[Blackhawk748]

I've seen the other two trailers and between all of that i am going to see this movie.

[Ruslan]

One of the best movies this year. Animation was absolutely beautiful. The story ... well, the basic skeleton "special boy in search of his destiny", it's like we've already seen this in Harry Potter and Luke Skywalker, but they put their own very cool twists on it. Recommendation: see it.

[cobaltstarfire]

We're going to see it next weekend, it looks good and I've heard good things about it.

Woulda gone this past weekend but we thought about it too late, and there were only 3D showings available at the nearest theaters.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Yeah, that's a problem here too. The 2D showing is at 4:30, both the evening slots are for the 3D.

[Cheesegear]

So, after complaining in another thread about meaningless action scenes, it was extremely satisfying to see a fight done completely right...

During Monkey's fight with Aunt #1, we learn that Monkey is actually Kubo's mother. Suddenly, the fight on the surface takes on a whole new meaning. Monkey is not only fighting for her son, but also fighting against her sister and family. With Monkey ending said fight with possibly one of the best lines in the whole movie, because we're invested now. Monkey's fight with Aunt #1 is not only satisfying to watch, but it's charged with emotion, too.

Stakes are placed on the table, which gets us invested in the fight.

[DoctorFaust]

Just got back from seeing it, and I'd pretty much agree with Razade. If you go in thinking it's just going to be a kids film, I'm sure you'd be pleasantly surprised by the writing, but since I went in thinking (rather dumbly, I will say) that it would be as well written as Coraline was, I was not. That said, the animation and art was pretty damn good throughout, especially during the scene with the giant skeleton, as was the score. And Monkey was probably my favorite part of it, proving once again that Monkey is best girl.


Also, since no one has mentioned, the cover of My Guitar Gently Weeps was really impressive. I really dislike the Beatles over all but it's my favorite song of theirs and the cover was pretty great with the shamisen.

If Rolling Girls taught me anything, it's that everything is improved through the liberal application of shamisen.

[Thialfi]

I'm not sure if I should take the whole family or not. They seem very interested, but their track record with this studio is not very good. They hated boxtrolls, thought Paranorman was cute but nothing special, and they hated Coraline. Of course the Coraline hate has a whole lot to do with them being younger and that movie freaked them out. They're 12 and 7 now.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I disliked Boxtrolls, didn't find Paranorman cute at all and have never seen Coraline. But given the ages, I think they'd enjoy Kubo.

[Blackhawk748]

I just got back from it and this movie is delightful. I have 0 actual complaints about it

[ThePhantom]

It is a good film. Yes, there are some cliches in it, but it does then well and that shows why those things are cliches. In other words, good story telling elements.

[Razade]

I felt the ending was kinda weak, I think it'd have been stronger

If the Moon King was slain. They killed the mom and dad and both aunts.

But I still loved the movie.

[Blackhawk748]

I felt the ending was kinda weak, I think it'd have been stronger

If the Moon King was slain. They killed the mom and dad and both aunts.

But I still loved the movie.


Honestly i like the ending. In those other instances he didnt get a choice, when he was given the choice of Life or Death, he chose to spare his grandfather, who will hopefully become a good person now.

[Razade]

Honestly i like the ending. In those other instances he didnt get a choice, when he was given the choice of Life or Death, he chose to spare his grandfather, who will hopefully become a good person now.


Oh sure, and at least Kubo will live with some family. I'd have liked to see him end up with the crazy grandma at the end after he triumphs honestly. That would have felt right. Because it's clear the village loves him. Which is also a nice change of pace. Most of the the time the orphan isn't liked by the nearby village. Kubo is clearly loved and appreciated for his stories and just for being him.

[BlueHerring]

Something interesting I noticed about the end

If anyone was paying careful attention at the end, you'll notice that the Moon King has sight in his left eye - the same one that Kubo is missing. While the film itself is ambiguous about this, I'm pretty sure that it is his eye, since all prior appearances of the MK portray him with white pupils.

[Ruslan]

Since the Moon King's goal was to make Kubo cold and unfeeling like himself, it's only appropriate that Kubo's triumph was to make the Moon King a human person with emotions. Like himself.

[Fawkes]

Since the Moon King's goal was to make Kubo cold and unfeeling like himself, it's only appropriate that Kubo's triumph was to make the Moon King a human person with emotions. Like himself.


Agreed. I just saw the movie today, and the ending was pretty much perfect.

[Cheesegear]

the ending was pretty much perfect.

Strongly disagree.

[Fralex]

If this were a tabletop RPG, Monkey's player would be one of those people who takes the game story super-seriously and has to make sure everything is safe when exploring a dungeon. Beetle was created by the sort of player who thinks being reckless is really funny. Their primary goal is to annoy Monkey's player.

DM: You enter a large, open chamber. In the center is a gigantic hand, palm facing upward, with a sword in the center.
KUBO'S PLAYER: The Sword Unbreakable...
MONKEY'S PLAYER: Wait! I search the room for traps!
DM: OK, make an Investigation check--
BEETLE'S PLAYER: Hey, I bet we could just take it if we're sneaky enough.
MONKEY'S PLAYER: What? No, that is such an obvious trap. Do you want to win this game or not?
BEETLE'S PLAYER: I make a Stealth check and approach the hand thingy!
MONKEY'S PLAYER: Let me just check the hand statue for traps first!
BEETLE'S PLAYER: Haha, I got an 18!
DM: As far as you can tell, you have approached the hand unnoticed.
MONKEY'S PLAYER: Rrrrrgh, what are you doing!? It might grab whoever takes the sword!
BEETLE'S PLAYER: I climb up onto the hand, so I'm standing directly on its palm.
MONKEY'S PLAYER: DON'T DO IT.
BEETLE'S PLAYER: :D
MONKEY'S PLAYER: You're gonna get us all KILLED! Especially you!
BEETLE'S PLAYER: I pull out the sword!
DM: OK. You are now holding the sword.
MONKEY'S PLAYER: Alright, now just quietly get off that thi--
BEETLE'S PLAYER: I shout, "HAHAHA! THE MIGHTY BEETLE IS VICTORIOUS!!"
DM: The hand creaks to life.
MONKEY'S PLAYER: Goddammit.
DM: Make a Dex save.
BEETLE'S PLAYER: 14?
DM: You jump off the hand before it can grab you. It, along with dozens of other massive, discarded bones, whirl around the room and fly up into the dark shadows at the top. Two burning eyes appear and glare down at you. Roll initiative.

[Razade]

Strongly disagree.

Not...going to expand on that? Just a "nope" and have done with it?

[Cheesegear]

Not...going to expand on that? Just a "nope" and have done with it?

At the beginning of the film, Kubo's mother narrates her vision of her husband; The greatest warrior who ever lived, who was also a gentleman. Through her, we were given an image of Kubo's father. Through Kubo, himself, his final vision of his mother - not including Monkey - is her using her magic to first, save his life, slap some wings on his back, and then run head first into her sisters, to protect her son, and then Kubo's own experiences on the boat, where he would see his 'true' mother come out every so often, is genuinely touching.

Our image of Hanzo is then shattered, when we meet Beetle. He is comic relief, and every single one of his attacks that he makes on every opponent literally does nothing. His Bow is useless every step of the way. I am not okay with Beetle being a remnant of Kubo's father, because Beetle is so utterly ineffectual - except as comic relief. I suppose that the implication that he is a great warrior, is a joke. A cruel joke on the audience that has no payoff. Beetle is not a great warrior. He is not Hanzo. If he had been simply a servant of Hanzo, fine. But not Hanzo. That's stupid. If Hanzo was the greatest warrior who ever lived...Beetle should not have acted how he did. But he did, 'cause it's a movie for children.

At the climax of the movie, the fight against Aunt #2 the garbage fight against the Moon King who turns into a Dragon...Thing for no reason, we know that at least one of Moon King's daughters actively rejected him, and his other two daughters turned out to be terrible, terrible people. We are then told that memories of our loved ones give us strength. The Moon King distances himself from both his wife and his daughters, and is an embittered, distant old man. Of course, Kubo's mother was redeemed by Hanzo's love...Or something. She met Hanzo, fell in love, stopped being evil. Certainly, if Kubo's mother was anything like her sisters, she was also a horrible person who killed people based on her father's whims...But we'll not expand on that, because it's a movie for children.

The power of friendship, by the townspeople...Who have no business being there. Their town was destroyed a week ago, there is no sign of rebuilding, there is no sign of anything, but, suddenly, Kubo gets the Helmet and suddenly they're all there. Why? What for?

The end of the movie should have been one of the following;
Kubo using his origami paper magic. As soon as I saw Kubo make a little paper Hanzo with a sword that could move around, I thought of 'Death by a Thousand Paper Cuts', said "Of course, it's so obvious." to myself, and immediately decided that Kubo would defeat the bad guy using the paper magic. Instead, his paper magic has no payoff whatsoever. Certainly, once I saw Kubo ditch the Armour and retrieve his shamisen, I was convinced that I had called the ending from the start. The Armour was awkward and unfamiliar to Kubo, while Monkey could use the Sword quite skilled.

Note, that I had also thought that Monkey would use the Sword, Kubo would use the Armour, and Beetle would use the Helmet in the final fight. Instead, the Armour is used as a plot device and serves as nothing more than a fetch quest and plays no role whatsoever in the final fight. If the intent was to have a grand adventure with Monkey and Beetle, why include the Armour at all, if it serves no purpose to the story?

Or, what I came up with after the movie, having seen the ending, which I didn't like, because I felt like the movie quite literally lost its plot in the last ten minutes;
Kubo, using his magic to summon the ghostly memories of first; His mother's memory of his father - combined with some mixed in references to Beetle - and his own memory of his mother, combined with elements of Monkey, of course. Kubo would then use his 'paper magic' on two ghosts, who are actually made of energy, and quite real, and given life and power based on the strength of his love and his memory strings (familial ties?). The lesson being that our parents can die, but they live on forever, in us. Just like Beetle said. Kubo, at the start of the movie, couldn't get his father's spirit to answer him (because we find out that he's not actually dead). Kubo ends the movie in the graveyard, now, with his father actually being dead now, would be the perfect time for his Dad to show up and completely trounce the bad guy.

The Moon King, having done terrible things to his family, doesn't have that inner strength, and therefore loses the fight. Instead...The townspeople come out of nowhere, and using the power of friendship, and other people's memories, Kubo wins the fight, in basically the exact way that the movie has never been at all about up until that point.

It's our memories that give us strength;
Kubo's mother has brain damage, and 'truly' comes out when she can remember things.
Beetle has his memories wiped...But this has no payoff at all, and one of my major complaints of the movie.
After the Moon King is defeated, he loses all his memories.

But Kubo, the main character...His memories have no impact. Even though he's the main character... What? :smallconfused:

7/10.
Beetle not even being remotely similar to what we're told, because we're given onscreen information of him being totally ineffectual.
The last ten minutes of the film basically losing the plot, and Kubo's victory over the Moon King basically having no relation to anything we've been told during the movie, and the Armour (and therefore the fetch quest) being entirely pointless.

[DoctorFaust]

Having gone and read up a bit on Japanese mythology, I think it would've been a much more interesting ending to have an Amaterasu sort of character show up in response to the Moon King's actions. No idea how they would've introduced her (maybe have the old beggar be her in disguise?), or how they could've done so without having the ending be a major deus ex machina, but I would've preferred it to the power of love and/or friendship that they used to resolve the conflict in the movie.

[Razade]

*Snips*

I mean, I agree with a good deal of this, I've said the ending was rather weak. There's some cultural context regarding the Obon Festival you've missed however, especially in the context of familial ancestor stuff and how it related to the end fight. The reason that the villagers working together to beat the Moon King . The whole point of the story is familial remembrance and the letting go of one's memories so they can pass on. The Moon King rules over his family and refuses to pass on, he's standing against tradition. It's not "The Power of Friendship" in so much as it's a deeply rooted aspect of Japanese society.

I'd also like to know how you figured out it was a week, everything seems to point to the fact that it takes place over the course of three days. Considering the Bon Festival is a three day event started by going to the graves of the dead and lighting a flame on the first night and ending with putting their torches into the water on the third. We only ever see three nights. The first after they're whisked away to Hokkaido, the second as they're returning to Honshu and the third in which the Moon King is defeated. It syncs up with the entire framing of the Bon Festival that kicks the whole thing off in the first place.

One other thing. Kubo needed all three pieces of the quest to beat the King. He needed the armor because without it he wouldn't have found the Helmet and the helmet and the sword wouldn't work.


Having gone and read up a bit on Japanese mythology, I think it would've been a much more interesting ending to have an Amaterasu sort of character show up in response to the Moon King's actions. No idea how they would've introduced her (maybe have the old beggar be her in disguise?), or how they could've done so without having the ending be a major deus ex machina, but I would've preferred it to the power of love and/or friendship that they used to resolve the conflict in the movie.

Considering the Moon King isn't Tsukiyomi I don't understand in what context it'd even make sense. The daughter of a people of the Moon is more closely related to The Bamboo Cutter's Daughter than anything else, with a lot of artistic liceanse taken granted.

[Cheesegear]

There's some cultural context regarding the Obon Festival you've missed however, especially in the context of familial ancestor stuff and how it related to the end fight.

If it wasn't explained in the movie, then it reflects poorly on the movie. If a movie is complicated because you haven't read the book, then it's a bad movie.


The whole point of the story is familial remembrance and the letting go of one's memories so they can pass on.

But...It's not. Because all the ghosts come back to fight the Moon King...For some reason.
Kubo held onto his memories in the form of the titular two strings. He kept his parents around until he needed them.


The Moon King rules over his family and refuses to pass on, he's standing against tradition.

I heard 'Give up your emotions and become perfect [like me].' It's not the line exactly, but I think I'm remembering pretty close.


It's not "The Power of Friendship" in so much as it's a deeply rooted aspect of Japanese society.

If there's background information that I don't have, that I need to understand the movie, that isn't explained at some point in the movie, then it's a bad movie.


I'd also like to know how you figured out it was a week, everything seems to point to the fact that it takes place over the course of three days.

Tomato, potato.


One other thing. Kubo needed all three pieces of the quest to beat the King. He needed the armor because without it he wouldn't have found the Helmet and the helmet and the sword wouldn't work.

But the Armour didn't work at all. Kubo ditched it in favour of his father's robe and mother's shamisen (which he'd had all along), because the Armour didn't work, and he had all three pieces. Which means the whole middle hour of the movie wasn't relevant to the ending. So what was the point? :smallyuk:
The point was to have a grand adventure with Monkey and Beetle, to get to know his real parents (except not really in Beetle's case). I've seen that movie. You can have that movie, but the McGuffin's don't need to exist, especially if they don't actually play a role at the end of the movie. The McGuffins were pointless and irrelevant to the story.

[Razade]

If it wasn't explained in the movie, then it reflects poorly on the movie. If a movie is complicated because you haven't read the book, then it's a bad movie.

The movie isn't based off a book. What are you talking about? :smallconfused:


But...It's not. Because all the ghosts come back to fight the Moon King...For some reason.
Kubo held onto his memories in the form of the titular two strings. He kept his parents around until he needed them.

The strings represent the bonds of family. The spirits represent the same thing. It ties into "the helm is where you call home". Kubo incorrectly interprets the Moon King to mean his ancestral home when in fact it's the village he lived in with his mother. The village is Kubo's family. It's all part of the narrative with the Obon Festival that the whole story is told within.


I heard 'Give up your emotions and become perfect [like me].' It's not the line exactly, but I think I'm remembering pretty close.

The Moon King is a Spirit, he's asking Kubo to give up his humanity to join him in the Heavens as part of his Celestial Family.


If there's background information that I don't have, that I need to understand the movie, that isn't explained at some point in the movie, then it's a bad movie.

I mean. It's just knowing culture?


Tomato, potato.

Well no, because three days isn't a week.


But the Armour didn't work at all. Kubo ditched it in favour of his father's robe and shamisen, because the Armour didn't work, and he had all three pieces. Which means the whole middle hour of the movie wasn't relevant to the ending. So what was the point? :smallyuk:

The destination isn't important, it's the journey. We're also told that the yukata of his family is important at the start. The armor did shield him from getting skewered a few times though. It's part of a wider narrative however.

[Cheesegear]

The movie isn't based off a book. What are you talking about? :smallconfused:
[...]
I mean. It's just knowing culture?

Correct. Since I don't give a crap about Japanese culture since it has no bearing on my life whatsoever, I need it explained to me. If you're going to use culture as a plot device, you need to explain said culture, especially if your audience isn't from the culture.


The village is Kubo's family.

No, it's not. I understand how you got there. But that's not part of the movie. Like I said, that only happens at the end, because the movie lost the plot.
If there was any foreshadowing at all, about how you can find new families if your real one dies or sucks, then I'd be fine with it. Unfortunately, what I got, was Beetle on the Boat telling Monkey that it will be okay because she'll live forever inside Kubo. Then I got Kubo making a wristband out of his mother's hair and Beetle's bowstring. Kubo's family, is Kubo's family. Basically every line in the movie reinforces that. Kubo yearns to know his father, he loves his mother. He keeps them around. They live on forever, in him.

Moon King and daughters are mad because their sister 'betrayed' them, and left their family, to start her own one.

Every step of the way, we're told that Family Is Important. If you want to pull a 'You Can Choose Your Family', you have to actually reinforce that several times throughout the movie; Fast and the Furious style. FatF drops the difference between the Family You Have and the Family You Can Make every five seconds, and the climax of every movie usually involves a quote with the word 'Family' in it.


The destination isn't important, it's the journey.

Like I said, I've seen that movie. There's nothing wrong with that movie. What's wrong with this movie, is that there are McGuffins in the story that don't mean anything, that only serve as a plot device, and it annoys me when I think about it.

[Razade]

Correct. Since I don't give a crap about Japanese culture since it has no bearing on my life whatsoever, I need it explained to me. If you're going to use culture as a plot device, you need to explain said culture, especially if your audience isn't from the culture.

Generally if I know a movie is set in a culture I'm unfamiliar with I do some research. Especially since I'm not the target audience and the finer points of the influences of the film are more important to me. It's fine that you don't but it's not the movie's fault. The entire movie screams Japanese Cultural Influences. Hell, I know the Obon because I've experienced it, not studied it.


No, it's not. I understand how you got there. But that's not part of the movie. Like I said, that only happens at the end, because the movie lost the plot.
If there was any foreshadowing at all, about how you can find new families if your real one dies or sucks, then I'd be fine with it. Unfortunately, what I got, was Beetle on the Boat telling Monkey that it will be okay because she'll live forever inside Kubo. Then I got Kubo making a wristband out of his mother's hair and Beetle's bowstring. Kubo's family, is Kubo's family. Basically every line in the movie reinforces that. Kubo yearns to know his father, he loves his mother. He keeps them around. They live on forever, in him.

Yeah it is. He spends his days there, his mother is only lucid at night. He's spent his entire life in that village and this is rural feudal Japan. There's about 20 people in the village and Kubo knows all of them. They give him food (we never see them give him money) for his stories and every character we see speaks to him not as an outsider but as a member of the village. Considering feudal Japan's villages were made up of one or two large families...I'm not making a stretch. I'm using the context of the film and the influence Laika went into the movie with.


Moon King and daughters are mad because their sister 'betrayed' them, and left their family, to start her own one.

Specifically with a mortal. That's important.


Every step of the way, we're told that Family Is Important. If you want to pull a 'You Can Choose Your Family', you have to actually reinforce that several times throughout the movie; Fast and the Furious style. FatF drops the difference between friends and family every five seconds.

Kubo only learns that Monkey and Beetle are his family near the end. They're a family before that, hence the scene with them eating together. Just because it turns out they're actually his family doesn't mean that the bonds he made with them before he knew that weren't honest or compromised.


Like I said, I've seen that movie. There's nothing wrong with that movie. What's wrong with this movie, is that there are McGuffins in the story that don't mean anything, that only serve as a plot device, and it annoys me when I think about it.

I've said I agree that the ending is weak. I'm merely pointing out you're missing context, context that the movie was more than upfront in its influence.

[Cheesegear]

It's fine that you don't but it's not the movie's fault.

Yes, it is. If I need to read the book to understand the movie, it's a bad movie. If I have questions about the movie, the movie didn't explain them. If it's actually important for me to understand the background information, and it isn't explained in the movie, then it's a bad movie.

If I have to do research, on my own time, something's gone horribly wrong with the movie's narrative. Generally, 'culture' in any movie can be explained in a minute or two. Someone in the story to tell the fish out of water (e.g; Kubo) what's going on. It takes like, five sentences to give out context. If I'm missing context (as I obviously am), then that's the movie's fault.


Hell, I know the Obon because I've experienced it, not studied it.

Good for you? :smallconfused:


Yeah it is. He spends his days there, his mother is only lucid at night.

Only from what we saw. From the story Kubo told on the boat, his mother was lucid more in the past, and has gotten worse only recently.

[Razade]

Yes, it is. If I need to read the book to understand the movie, it's a bad movie. If I have questions about the movie, the movie didn't explain them. If it's actually important for me to understand the background information, and it isn't explained in the movie, then it's a bad movie.

If I have to do research, on my own time, something's gone horribly wrong with the movie's narrative. Generally, 'culture' in any movie can be explained in a minute or two. Someone in the story to tell the fish out of water (e.g; Kubo) what's going on. It takes like, five sentences to give out context. If I'm missing context (as I obviously am), then that's the movie's fault.

The Obon Festival is a well known thing, the fact you don't know it simply by being a member of the internet age...or just by being on the planet is more surprising. The rest is all just fluff really.


Good for you? :smallconfused:

The point was that you don't need to sit in a study and look over culture to learn of it from osmosis.


Only from what we saw. From the story Kubo told on the boat, his mother was lucid more in the past, and has gotten worse only recently.

Yet he still spent his time in the village. Really has nothing to do with anything.

[Fawkes]

Beetle... is comic relief, and every single one of his attacks that he makes on every opponent literally does nothing. His Bow is useless every step of the way.

There was a lot in your post that I have quibbles with, but this is flat out wrong. Beetle and Monkey are unable to hurt the skeleton monster, and Beetle is outmatched by the Sister, but it's Beetle and his bow that save Kubo from the eyes underwater.


I am not okay with [SPOILERS] because Beetle is so utterly ineffectual - except as comic relief. I suppose that the implication that he is a great warrior, is a joke.

Was a great warrior. Was. He's been cursed and wiped of all his memories. Wouldn't be much of a curse if he wasn't reduced somehow.


A cruel joke on the audience that has no payoff.

The payoff is that he's Kubo's dad. That Kubo's dad has been looking out for him the whole time. That's major emotional payoff and central to the theme of the movie.

[Cheesegear]

The Obon Festival is a well known thing, the fact you don't know it simply by being a member of the internet age...or just by being on the planet is more surprising. The rest is all just fluff really.

I live in rural Australia. Spiders in the toilet, wallabies on the road, and if I go 5kms out of town, I'll find a kangaroo. Wikipedia tells me that Obon is not celebrated in Australia, let alone where I live. So, thanks for your condescension. The only way I would know about the Obon Festival is if I went out of my way to look for it, since I don't know it exists, how would I know to look for it?


The point was that you don't need to sit in a study and look over culture to learn of it from osmosis.

So I'd need to go out and actively look for it and/or be exposed to it in my everyday life at some point. Which, as I've just pointed out, isn't likely to happen anytime soon.

[Razade]

I live in rural Australia. Spiders in the toilet, wallabies on the road, and if I go 5kms out of town, I'll find a kangaroo. Wikipedia tells me that Obon is not celebrated in Australia, let alone where I live. So, thanks for your condescension. The only way I would know about the Obon Festival is if I went out of my way to look for it, since I don't know it exists, how would I know to look for it?

I lived in Rural Farmville Ohio, I still went out to experience other cultures. It's the most famous festival in Japan and China. It's not like this is some obscure small village festivity we're talking about. It's kind of a big deal. It's not condescension it's...utter bafflement how someone in the 21st century doesn't have passing knowledge on something celebrated by more than a quarter of the Earth's population.


So I'd need to go out and actively look for it and/or be exposed to it in my everyday life at some point. Which, as I've just pointed out, isn't likely to happen anytime soon.

No. See above. The Bon Festival isn't some obscure thing. It's a massive holiday, celebrated by more people than celebrate Christmas under various names. Bon is just the Japanese style of the practice. It's practiced in your own country even. A simple Google Search shows Melbourne and Carins and Brisban are doing one this year. That's just three seconds of googling.

[Cheesegear]

A simple Google Search shows Melbourne and Carins and Brisban are doing one this year. That's just three seconds of googling.

None of which I can go to. So, that's done.

Essentially, the movie is pretty deep, and I didn't understand it, because I'm an uncultured swine, and not because almost every line of dialogue was telling me one thing and not another thing. Got it.

[BlueHerring]

Like I said, I've seen that movie. There's nothing wrong with that movie. What's wrong with this movie, is that there are McGuffins in the story that don't mean anything, that only serve as a plot device, and it annoys me when I think about it. I kinda get the feeling that the movie is trying to say that the bonds forged with others are stronger than something like a legendary sword. It certainly doesn't make the ending feel any less weak, but that's the impression that I got.

Also, here's a thought:

Did Hanzo ever actually use the three artifacts? His study seemed to show that he definitely knew where they were, but there's nothing that actually suggests he ever obtained them. And even if he did, how would they have gotten to where they were after he was defeated by the Moon King?

[DoctorFaust]

Razade, I think you may have taken me a bit too literally, especially since I specifically say "sort of character". Would calling the theoretical character a Sun Queen have made my point clearer to you?

And by the way, I've been to Japan, and I've learned about Obon. And I would still say that the burden of exposition doesn't lie with the viewer.

[Ruslan]

Cheesegear, dude, whoa! Spoiler tags! Use them! [upon further read, EVERYONE needs to use them in this thread!]


Our image of Hanzo is then shattered, when we meet Beetle. He is comic relief, and every single one of his attacks that he makes on every opponent literally does nothing. His Bow is useless every step of the way. I am not okay with Beetle being a remnant of Kubo's father, because Beetle is so utterly ineffectual.Not true. He does an amazing job shooting out the underwater eyes and saving Kubo. He also saves Kubo from a deadly falls during the fight with the skeleton TWICE. Once by shooting his clothing with an arrow and nailing it to the wall, and second time by flying Kubo (and Monkey) out of the cave as it collapses.

So, yes, he is less-than-effective due to the curse laid on him, but nonetheless he does save Kubo at least 3 times that I could recall off-hand.

[BlueHerring]

Cheesegear, dude, whoa! Spoiler tags! Use them! [upon further read, EVERYONE needs to use them in this thread!]
Not true. He does an amazing job shooting out the underwater eyes and saving Kubo. He also saves Kubo from a deadly falls during the fight with the skeleton TWICE. Once by shooting his clothing with an arrow and nailing it to the wall, and second time by flying Kubo (and Monkey) out of the cave as it collapses.

So, yes, he is less-than-effective due to the curse laid on him, but nonetheless he does save Kubo at least 3 times that I could recall off-hand.


And

He impales Aunt #2 from a distance with either a sword or a halberd. I couldn't really tell what it was, but that's my best guess.

[cobaltstarfire]

I didn't even know the background of the Obon festival, but the movie conveys the ideas related to it just fine.

George Takei explains it.

Then Monkey explains it.

Then it comes together again in the end using the visual cues we were shown earlier.


You don't need to know about Japanese culture to have followed that particular string in the movie, for those who somehow missed it I'm inclined to believe that you simply weren't paying attention closely enough, and didn't the movie flat out say from the start to pay attention? :smallwink:

edit:

Also just got back from watching it, I thought it was pretty good. Sure it was a simple story, but I don't feel that simplicity or happening to use basic archetypes is a detriment. It was well told for the most part, and there was for me (and the guy) something kind of magical about it.

[Thialfi]

I took the whole family on Saturday and they all enjoyed it. I thought it was well done.

I like how the title of the film tells you exactly what the entire movie is about without spoiling it.

I didn't mind that the McGuffins ended up not helping at all. I think that was the entire point. Things don't matter. Family and the bonds that we forge are everything.

I can't think of a movie where the BBEG guy got owned in a more thorough way.

[Leewei]

Fun, gorgeous movie. The Aunts are terrifying. If you're seeing this with a child, be prepared to hold or comfort them during some scenes. The wit, emotional appeal, and art involved in the movie are all quite great. Laika is now being favorably compared to Studio Ghibli, with good reason.

[Ruslan]

I didn't mind that the McGuffins ended up not helping at all. I think that was the entire point. Things don't matter. Family and the bonds that we forge are everything.
I agree. "The magic was inside you all along" is a time-honored genre trope for a reason.


I can't think of a movie where the BBEG guy got owned in a more thorough way.*thumbsup*

[Fawkes]

Laika is now being favorably compared to Studio Ghibli, with good reason.

They certainly do seem to be the heir apparent. Not ready to put them on the same level yet, but I'm looking forward to seeing what comes next.

[Grey Watcher]

For what little it's worth, I really loved this movie: yes the plot is very much a stock plot, but it's told well and, especially with the parallels drawn between Kubo's street-corner storytelling (in an age before the printing press) and the story of the film itself, I found the simple, straightforward approach to be entirely appropriate. To wax a little glib on the subject, it's not the tale, it's the telling that's really important.


Something interesting I noticed about the end

If anyone was paying careful attention at the end, you'll notice that the Moon King has sight in his left eye - the same one that Kubo is missing. While the film itself is ambiguous about this, I'm pretty sure that it is his eye, since all prior appearances of the MK portray him with white pupils.

Glad someone else noticed that. :smallsmile:

As for the ending, I personally liked it, though it was not without its flaws. The only thing I'll say about the debate over it in this thread is

I think Kubo defeating The Moon King as Kubo rather than trying to be Hanzo 2.0, despite having no training in swordplay, archery, and other samurai skills is important.

My major complaint about the ending is that the whole film has a very earnest air about it, so it was somewhat jarring that the plot gets resolved by the entire village lying to Kubo's Grandfather about who he is and what he's like. I mean, up until that point, everything that's been told is true. Really the only other instance of outright deception I can think of is the Moon King using Kubo's dream to lure him to the ruins of Hanzo's Castle.

Yes, the point of the ending is for the Moon King to learn, first hand just what it is about mortal life that's worth living and fighting for by having him live as a mortal for at least a little while, but, I dunno. :smallconfused:

[huttj509]

For what little it's worth, I really loved this movie: yes the plot is very much a stock plot, but it's told well and, especially with the parallels drawn between Kubo's street-corner storytelling (in an age before the printing press) and the story of the film itself, I found the simple, straightforward approach to be entirely appropriate. To wax a little glib on the subject, it's not the tale, it's the telling that's really important.



Glad someone else noticed that. :smallsmile:

As for the ending, I personally liked it, though it was not without its flaws. The only thing I'll say about the debate over it in this thread is

I think Kubo defeating The Moon King as Kubo rather than trying to be Hanzo 2.0, despite having no training in swordplay, archery, and other samurai skills is important.

My major complaint about the ending is that the whole film has a very earnest air about it, so it was somewhat jarring that the plot gets resolved by the entire village lying to Kubo's Grandfather about who he is and what he's like. I mean, up until that point, everything that's been told is true. Really the only other instance of outright deception I can think of is the Moon King using Kubo's dream to lure him to the ruins of Hanzo's Castle.

Yes, the point of the ending is for the Moon King to learn, first hand just what it is about mortal life that's worth living and fighting for by having him live as a mortal for at least a little while, but, I dunno. :smallconfused:

First off, I agree with you that the lying is a bit of a broken aesop (unintended anti-moral).

What I think is more prominent is that the villagers are welcoming him into their (extended) family. He's Kubo's grandfather, after all. Not only that, but in their deception they're treating him as if he already *were* part of the village. Not just "this will become your home" but "welcome home" sort of feel.

[Fiery Diamond]

Essentially, the movie is pretty deep, and I didn't understand it, because I'm an uncultured swine, and not because almost every line of dialogue was telling me one thing and not another thing. Got it.

I'm glad you understand. Being an ethnocentric #$% is something you should be ashamed of, not treating as the default. And besides...


I didn't even know the background of the Obon festival, but the movie conveys the ideas related to it just fine.

George Takei explains it.

Then Monkey explains it.

Then it comes together again in the end using the visual cues we were shown earlier.


You don't need to know about Japanese culture to have followed that particular string in the movie, for those who somehow missed it I'm inclined to believe that you simply weren't paying attention closely enough, and didn't the movie flat out say from the start to pay attention? :smallwink:

...there's this fact, too.

[Cheesegear]

Saw the movie again, because nothing good came out this week that I really wanted to see, so I saw 'Kubo again, for free. Now I know how the Bon Festival works (thanks to condescending people in the thread), I can definitely say that there are two Themes running through the movie;

1. Death - of yourself - isn't that bad, just accept it. As long as you've left a legacy/had a life worth living, you're fine. And,
2. Death - of others, specifically, of a loved ones - isn't that bad, because they live forever, in your memories.

Ultimately, there is a running theme of Death and Memories.

The movie can't decide on which Theme to pick, so ends with a confusing/underwhelming/asspull/lost plot ending. The first time I saw the movie, I was definitely focussed on the second Theme, which is basically dropped almost immediately after the fight with Aunt #2. Since I can't really relate to Theme #1 because I'm nowhere near death, and the time that I did almost die I was KO'd for so never had to panic/accept anything. Theme #2, I can very directly relate to, and that's very obviously why that portion of the movie spoke to me, more. But, that's the part that was dropped for the ending.

Once again, the Bon Festival had no meaning for me, so I didn't care, mostly because it wasn't explained well (I know it was explained three times, it's still badly explained. I'm a smart guy, I've seen the movie twice, the second time I was specifically paying attention to that one scene, and I still don't care. If you're into world building, great. But, the Bon Festival has no real meaning for Kubo, since his Memories or Loved Ones play no part in the finale, and he's the protagonist, the one guy I'm supposed to care about...And the ending is worse because of it).

So, yeah.
You can stop complaining about the Bon Festival now. I don't care. It's not relevant to the protagonist. It serves as world-building, and that's fine. I get it. I understand why it's in the movie. I know what it's about. It doesn't help the story. The Bon Festival does not need to be in the story / take up screen time. But, I couldn't tell you what to replace it with.

I only care about character development and plot. I've already come under fire from when I said I don't particularly like Brandon Sanderson's Mistborn, because I don't care at all about world-building and I only care about the protagonists and their direct loved ones (i.e; People important to the plot).

That's where I'm at. Seen it twice, now.
Still gets a 7/10 from me. My opinion didn't change at all, even with a greater understanding of the Bon Festival. So you can stop now.

[Blackhawk748]

Ill be honest, i had no idea what this Obon Festival is either, until this thread. I just assumed the ending was a "memories have power thing"

[Flickerdart]

I didn't know about the Obon Festival beyond "there's a thing they do in Japan with lanterns that's about dead people," but that didn't stop me from following the events of the movie (which was a great movie).


It was a little disappointing that the heavily foreshadowed magic gear came to naught in the end, but it made sense. After all, the armour is a mortal's only way to defeat the Moon King, but Kubo is a moon wizard too, so he could pull it off. I didn't like the Moon King turning into a dragon though, nor the sword-based fights with the aunts. They're all wizards! They should use magic, just like Kubo's mother.

Amusingly, Hanzo's curse made him unable to use the three pieces of armour - the helmet would never fit on his head, even if the armour reshaped itself around his weird beetly body.

[Grey Watcher]

I didn't know about the Obon Festival beyond "there's a thing they do in Japan with lanterns that's about dead people," but that didn't stop me from following the events of the movie (which was a great movie).


It was a little disappointing that the heavily foreshadowed magic gear came to naught in the end, but it made sense. After all, the armour is a mortal's only way to defeat the Moon King, but Kubo is a moon wizard too, so he could pull it off. I didn't like the Moon King turning into a dragon though, nor the sword-based fights with the aunts. They're all wizards! They should use magic, just like Kubo's mother.

Amusingly, Hanzo's curse made him unable to use the three pieces of armour - the helmet would never fit on his head, even if the armour reshaped itself around his weird beetly body.



I think the thing is that there isn't the hard line that we, in the era of tabletop and video game RPGs, are used to between warrior and magic-user. Kubo's Mother and her Sisters fight with what they have, which is apparently flight, super-human reflexes, and, for the Sisters, magical smoke (for Kubo's Mother, the musical shockwave) as well as more mundane looking weapons. The only instance of someone being directly harmed by magic that I can think of is when Kubo uses the shamisen to kill the second Sister.

[Flickerdart]

I think the thing is that there isn't the hard line that we, in the era of tabletop and video game RPGs, are used to between warrior and magic-user. Kubo's Mother and her Sisters fight with what they have, which is apparently flight, super-human reflexes, and, for the Sisters, magical smoke (for Kubo's Mother, the musical shockwave) as well as more mundane looking weapons. The only instance of someone being directly harmed by magic that I can think of is when Kubo uses the shamisen to kill the second Sister.


The two sisters used their mists to destroy the entire village.

[cobaltstarfire]

The two sisters used their mists to destroy the entire village.



And the Mother used "the last of her magic" protecting Kubo, with several things being pre-emptively created in case Kubo is ever found by the sisters. There might be a limit to just how much they can do in a given period of time or something?

Though they did still use magic in their fights, there was a lot of flying around and hovering being done.

I do agree that the grandfather turning into a dragon/fish/shrimp abomination was somewhat out of left field.

[Ruslan]

And the Mother used "the last of her magic" protecting Kubo, with several things being pre-emptively created in case Kubo is ever found by the sisters. There might be a limit to just how much they can do in a given period of time or something?

It's almost like ...

It's a Vancian-system RPG!

[Ashen Lilies]

And the Mother used "the last of her magic" protecting Kubo, with several things being pre-emptively created in case Kubo is ever found by the sisters. There might be a limit to just how much they can do in a given period of time or something?

Though they did still use magic in their fights, there was a lot of flying around and hovering being done.

I do agree that the grandfather turning into a dragon/fish/shrimp abomination was somewhat out of left field.


Personally, I just ascribe the grandfather turning into a giant dragon to be just an excuse for the animators to show off more. Because, you know, the giant waves, flying origami, and 16-foot tall skeleton puppet weren't quite enough. :smallamused:

Does it need to exist? No. Does it even make sense to exist? Maybe not. Is it awesome? Yeah.

[cobaltstarfire]

Personally, I just ascribe the grandfather turning into a giant dragon to be just an excuse for the animators to show off more. Because, you know, the giant waves, flying origami, and 16-foot tall skeleton puppet weren't quite enough. :smallamused:

Does it need to exist? No. Does it even make sense to exist? Maybe not. Is it awesome? Yeah.

That is quite true



The origami magic in particular was my favorite thing about the movie. I found myself really being swept away by Kubo's story telling in the beginning.

My brain does want to find a rationalization for Grandpa moon though...the best it could manage is.

a. Celestial people are all eldritch abominations
-----what kind of form would mom and the sisters have? Demon Monkey, and Monstrous Crows?
b. Turning into a creepy dragon/fish/shrimp monster is just a manifestation of how powerful grandpa moon is, which he uses because a human form can't contain and direct it.

[Razade]

The two sisters used their mists to destroy the entire village.


Did they? The mist covered the city. Not only that, only the sister with the Pipe had power over mist. The other one doesn't display such a power outside being able to move around.

[Grey Watcher]

The two sisters used their mists to destroy the entire village.


I meant harm to a person, rather than property damage. The Sisters, for example, are only pushed back by the Mother's shockwave.

[Rodin]

The strings represent the bonds of family. The spirits represent the same thing. It ties into "the helm is where you call home". Kubo incorrectly interprets the Moon King to mean his ancestral home when in fact it's the village he lived in with his mother. The village is Kubo's family. It's all part of the narrative with the Obon Festival that the whole story is told within.




Actually, Kubo didn't mis-interpret the Moon King. His ancestral home was a trap, a way to get him to where his second aunt could ambush him. The Moon King explicitly tells him how to find his ancestral home (follow the setting sun), and when we wakes up he stuffs "Hanzo" into his bag...as "Hanzo" is frantically pointing in the opposite direction.

Remember kids, nothing good ever comes from following directions given to you by the Big Bad.

[Ravian]

Actually, Kubo didn't mis-interpret the Moon King. His ancestral home was a trap, a way to get him to where his second aunt could ambush him. The Moon King explicitly tells him how to find his ancestral home (follow the setting sun), and when we wakes up he stuffs "Hanzo" into his bag...as "Hanzo" is frantically pointing in the opposite direction.

Remember kids, nothing good ever comes from following directions given to you by the Big Bad.

To be fair, he didn't realize it was the moon king when they met. We the audience can make the connection based on narrative tropes (you don't just introduce a spirit guy that's blind over half way through the movie and not expect him to be the villain we've heard so much about.

I also really liked the bit with "Hanzo" pointing, it's a nice bit of foreshadowing that's just hard enough to notice that the target audience can reasonably spot it and feel smart for doing so without it being too obvious.

[Flickerdart]

Did they? The mist covered the city. Not only that, only the sister with the Pipe had power over mist. The other one doesn't display such a power outside being able to move around.

When Kubo comes back for the Helm, the village is in ruins. It didn't happen that way by itself, I would think.

[Rodin]

To be fair, he didn't realize it was the moon king when they met. We the audience can make the connection based on narrative tropes (you don't just introduce a spirit guy that's blind over half way through the movie and not expect him to be the villain we've heard so much about.

I also really liked the bit with "Hanzo" pointing, it's a nice bit of foreshadowing that's just hard enough to notice that the target audience can reasonably spot it and feel smart for doing so without it being too obvious.

It still felt a little bit weak to me. Kubo accepted it really fast, and didn't have any indication that it was a prophetic dream rather than a regular one. I can just about accept that the prospect of seeing his ancestral home robbed him of common sense, and Beetle/Hanzo is such a happy-go-lucky guy that he wouldn't question it either.

No, the person I was disappointed in is Monkey. She was shown throughout being very cautious, and she of all people would know the Moon King's abilities. I was very surprised that she raised no objection, and didn't ask to confirm that the helmet was there using the Dragon Radar origami puppet. A little scene of her questioning the dream and being overridden by the others would have gone a long way, I think.

Still, it's a super minor complaint. Definitely one of the best movies I've seen all year, either #1 or #2, with Civil War being the other contender.

[Ranxerox]

I went to see this movie today. Loved the movie and loved the ending.


The usefulness or lack thereof of the sword, breastplate and helmet. These items are Macguffins, and while Macguffins sometimes can do stuff, there real purpose is drive the plot forward. By giving Kubo something to search after, and keeping him from just hiding in a cave somewhere, they fulfilled this purpose nicely. Also at the end they gave him a choice. All three of them were with him when he sat down to string his shamisen. He could have elected to go on fighting, and hoped that through courage, ingenuity and luck to beat the big bad like the overmatched protagonist in countless movies before. Instead he made a conscious choice to face his grandfather as the storyteller that he was and not the warrior that he dreamed about. Without the items he would not have had a choice and would have had to gone with his magic and storytelling because the plot left him no other options.

The Moon King's dragon form. The Moon King could have faced Kubo in any form that he desired, and only chose the monstrous dragon form because he felt that Kubo wanted an monster to fight. For that reason, he turned himself into the living version of the dragon that Kubo had Hanzo fight in the in the puppet show that he put on for the villagers.

The villagers lying to the Moon King at the end. This was the payoff of one of the movies big themes, the power of storytelling. Kubo and the villagers elected to change the narrative from something horrible into to something good. A practice that is morally quite debatable when done in real life, but in the context of mythic beings who are as much story as anything else it's completely kosher.

[Ruslan]

Here's something I just realized - every single Laika movie was nominated for Oscar. (Corpse Bride, Coraline, Paranorman, Boxtrolls). And Kubo probably will too. An admirable consistency which even Pixar can't boast...

[cobaltstarfire]

I've been thinking about the design of the two sisters...and there's been something bugging me.

Not in a bad way, more in a ahh- dejavu kind of way. Like I've seen this kind of two cold evil magic sisters, with horse hair hats, doing wire-fu....

But I can't for the life of me figure out what is causing it, I talked to the guy about it, and he had a similar feeling but also couldn't put his finger on what it was, other than that there being two was just as important as the other parts.

Did anyone else get this feeling? Any ideas what they might be reminding us of?

[Fawkes]

Here's something I just realized - every single Laika movie was nominated for Oscar. (Corpse Bride, Coraline, Paranorman, Boxtrolls). And Kubo probably will too. An admirable consistency which even Pixar can't boast...

This has been a good year for animation. Kubo, Finding Dory, and Zootopia are all likely Oscar contenders. I imagine Moana may be, too. Sausage Party may also factor in. There's also dark horses like Magik, and festival darlings like The Girl Without Hands and My Life as a Courgette. If Breadwinner gets a 2016 release it'll also be one to watch.

Of course, it can be difficult to predict the animation Oscars sometimes because of how many Oscar voters don't take the category seriously.