Warlock without Eldritch Blast

[EroGaki]

Can it be done with seriously hampering the character? Has anyone played such a character? It would seem to me that if you picked up, say, Chill touch, it would free up a few invocations that would have been used to buff up eldritch blast.

[Yuki Akuma]

Maybe not Chill Touch, but Green Flame Blade is pretty nifty. Or you can just go full bladelock and not even bother with cantrips for damage - you've got a sword to stab people with.

[JellyPooga]

Yes, it can.

Your typical Bladelock will take EB for ranged capability, but doesn't actually need it, if they're doing their job right.

Tomelocks usually go for EB, but the plethora of Cantrips they get don't necessitate it.

Chainlocks...well Chainlocks are an odd niche anyway. Who knows?

Eldritch Blast is a great combat cantrip, no doubt, but not every character needs to be focused around combat (even Fighters) and Warlocks are no exception.

A Warlock with Friends, Mage Hand, Minor Illusion and Prestidigitation for cantrips will be perfectly adequate both in and out of a fight if he's creative. He'll have to rely on a weapon to deal at-will damage, but that's no big deal. At the levels where that weapon damage fails to be significant, he's got Big Guns (i.e. lvl.4+ spells) to get him through a fight.

[jas61292]

Yes, this can be done. Its not even that hard. Most optimization threads treat Warlocks as if they are archers. The reality is though that they are full casters, and they have tons of tricks up their sleeves. As was already mentioned, bladelocks do not need it at all since they can just use a weapon. But even that is not necessary. You do not even need to focus on damage at all to be functional.

My last campaign I played with a warlock who started out without eldritch blast. While he did eventually grab it, he never used Agonizing Blast or Repelling Blast. And no, he didn't have Hex either. Because of the lack of focus on Eldritch Blast, he was able to pick up a bunch of other invocations and spells that made him much better at support in battle, and way, way better at non-combat situations. And in combat, he went Pact of the Tome and picked up Ray of Frost as one of his cantrips, which at the lower levels could often have a very similar effect to Repelling Blast without needing to waste an invocation.

I'm not going to go into all the specifics, since it was not my character and I don't fully remember, but the point is that they had absolutely no focus on pure damage dealing and they were still one of the most important members of the party. There is far more to D&D than straight up DPR, and Warlocks have tons of ways to do things.

[R.Shackleford]

Can it be done with seriously hampering the character? Has anyone played such a character? It would seem to me that if you picked up, say, Chill touch, it would free up a few invocations that would have been used to buff up eldritch blast.

Even before the new cantrips I saw this done.

Chill Touch isn't exactly a nice cantrip but it can work.

Vhuman Warlock with Magic Initiate and some sorcerer cantrips (shocking grasp + Fiend Chainlock) was a build I've seen a few times.

[MrStabby]

So the question to ask yourself is, What other invocations would you take instead?

Are those invocations better than the battlefield control from multiple repelling blasts AND the damage from agonising blast d10 based cantrips? With hex it only gets better at level 5+. This is a very significant part of the warlocks power so you have to work out what you are choosing instead.

How else will you be useful? How else are you going to contribute with your two spells between rests? If there are only two combat turns between rests then the warlock is doing fine; if you need some at-will abilities (before level 11 anyway) then you want to make sure that is effective.

Some warlocks are less hit by this than others - bladelocks as an obvious example. Otherwise you may need a Fey pact warlock - their level 1 ability isn't at will, but should be enough to give you useful things to do when you are not casting your very limited spells.

[Grod_The_Giant]

For Bladelocks, I honestly wouldn't waste space on either blast invocation, or even Eldrich Blast if I'm going Dex-based-- weapon damage is fine. I'd probably do similar if I was a Tome/Chainlock using the melee cantrips.

[Giant2005]

A non EB using Bladelock can pull off some ridiculous DPR if he can get his hands on a magic Crossbow (or just has an ally that can cast Magic Weapon).

[JeffreyGator]

The Undying Light (https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/02_UA_Underdark_Characters.pdf) warlock has much less need for eldritch blast since there is another way to add CHA to damage.

As for what else you can take - there is more room for at-will abilities other than EB without taking those two invocations. The default might go from blasting to casting false life/attacking (bladelock) or casting silent image to control the battlefield possibly.

[Yuki Akuma]

The Undying Light (https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/02_UA_Underdark_Characters.pdf) warlock has much less need for eldritch blast since there is another way to add CHA to damage.

As for what else you can take - there is more room for at-will abilities other than EB without taking those two invocations. The default might go from blasting to casting false life/attacking (bladelock) or casting silent image to control the battlefield possibly.

Undying Light is great. You can end up adding your Charisma to damage multiple times with that.

[R.Shackleford]

Undying Light is great. You can end up adding your Charisma to damage multiple times with that.

I don't know any DM that will allow that.

Essentially all "add X to damage" abilities don't stack no matter where they comes from.

Sorcerer/Wizard/Warlock could add their Int or Cha to damage, not both or Int + Cha + Cha.

[Tanarii]

First a question: Do you consider a Warlock without the Agonizing Blast Invocation to be seriously hampering the character?

Anyhow:
Warlock with a 16 Dex (ie +2 Dex race that put 14 in Dex) is better off using Light Crossbow until 2nd, and until 5th if she doesn't want to spend a feat on Agonizing Blast. If she also has access to Longbow (Elf) then she also has a range advantage over Eldritch Blast, unless another Invocation is spent on it.

Dual-wield Daggers is also superior to Eldritch Blast until 5th, even with Agonizing Blast. Except for, y'know, range of 20 instead of 120. :smallwink:

After level 5 you need Extra Attack, Bladelock /w Invocation, or any cantrip to keep up. And of course the latter doesn't keep up with Agonizing Blast at all.

[Yuki Akuma]

I don't know any DM that will allow that.

Essentially all "add X to damage" abilities don't stack no matter where they comes from.

Sorcerer/Wizard/Warlock could add their Int or Cha to damage, not both or Int + Cha + Cha.

Is this actually a rule laid out anywhere?

Radiant Soul and Lifedrinker should both apply to attacks made with Green Flame Blade. Why wouldn't they?

I also don't see why the secondary target of Green Flame Blade shouldn't be taking twice your Charisma modifier in fire damage (or 1d8+Cha+Cha at level 5).

[MrStabby]

Is this actually a rule laid out anywhere?

Radiant Soul and Lifedrinker should both apply to attacks made with Green Flame Blade. Why wouldn't they?

I also don't see why the secondary target of Green Flame Blade shouldn't be taking twice your Charisma modifier in fire damage (or 1d8+Cha+Cha at level 5).

Where does the second +cha come from at level 5? I can see one at level 1 and another by level 12 but I am missing what gives more cha to damage at level 5?

[GlenSmash!]

Is this actually a rule laid out anywhere?

Radiant Soul and Lifedrinker should both apply to attacks made with Green Flame Blade. Why wouldn't they?

I also don't see why the secondary target of Green Flame Blade shouldn't be taking twice your Charisma modifier in fire damage (or 1d8+Cha+Cha at level 5).

If we ever see the Undying light warlock in official (not UA) form I doubt it will be able to double stack CHA mod to damage. In fact I think most UA classes are a little over powered. WotC expects us to cry foul at that kind of stuff.

[Yuki Akuma]

Where does the second +cha come from at level 5? I can see one at level 1 and another by level 12 but I am missing what gives more cha to damage at level 5?

The Warlock Undying Light pact grants the Radiant Soul class ability which, among other things, adds +Charisma to damage from spells that deal fire or radiant damage. Green Flame Blade itself already does 1d8+Charisma fire damage to the second target at level 5, so adding that class ability in would end up adding your Charisma bonus twice.


If we ever see the Undying light warlock in official (not UA) form I doubt it will be able to double stack CHA mod to damage. In fact I think most UA classes are a little over powered. WotC expects us to cry foul at that kind of stuff.

I dunno - the game already includes ways to add your spellcasting modifier to spell damage. They wrote Green-Flame Blade without mentioning you can't stack your spellcasting modifier on its damage twice, despite it coming out after the Player's Handbook had already been finalised.

[RickAllison]

I am assuming we are talking a viable warlock for combat?

Tomelocks can rip up melee using GFB or BB combined with a poached Shillelagh. Undying Light can do great with Firebolt or Sacred Flame, though any warlock can do fairly decent with those. Same if they have a good attack stat and can take the melee cantrips. Shocking Touch from Magic Initiate would be great for a Chainlock; the familiar doesn't have to even worry about OAs!

Without relying on cantrips, the options become more limited. Bladelocks can do fairly decent with attacks, though not great. Misty Visions could be an interesting one for it...

[Yuki Akuma]

Note: Warlocks don't get Firebolt natively, so you'd need to take Magic Initiate (Sorcerer) to get it on an Undying Light Warlock. Or, well, multiclass Sorcerer.

[RickAllison]

Note: Warlocks don't get Firebolt natively, so you'd need to take Magic Initiate (Sorcerer) to get it on an Undying Light Warlock. Or, well, multiclass Sorcerer.

We do what we must. Sacred Flame also needs the same.

[Yuki Akuma]

We do what we must. Sacred Flame also needs the same.

Nope, Undying Light Warlocks get Sacred Flames from their Radiant Soul class feature. That class feature really does a lot of work.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Note: Warlocks don't get Firebolt natively, so you'd need to take Magic Initiate (Sorcerer) to get it on an Undying Light Warlock. Or, well, multiclass Sorcerer.
Or, you know, Pact of the Tome.

[Yuki Akuma]

Or, you know, Pact of the Tome.

...I always forget about that one. Mostly because I always go Chain or Blade.

:smallredface: My bad.

[RickAllison]

Nope, Undying Light Warlocks get Sacred Flames from their Radiant Soul class feature. That class feature really does a lot of work.

I was just thinking in general. Sacred Flame is a good spell for a lot of warlocks.

[Gastronomie]

My Bladelock has Eldritch Blast as a secondary option. And I've used it several times, especially after I've happened to kill everything within 30 feet of me. I don't have Agonizing or Repelling, though, so I suppose it could be substituted by other spells if I wanted to.

[R.Shackleford]

Is this actually a rule laid out anywhere?

Radiant Soul and Lifedrinker should both apply to attacks made with Green Flame Blade. Why wouldn't they?

I also don't see why the secondary target of Green Flame Blade shouldn't be taking twice your Charisma modifier in fire damage (or 1d8+Cha+Cha at level 5).

First, UA isn't playtested at all.

Secondly, it doesn't matter what any rules say, I don't know a single DM that would allow the same feature (+additional modifier to damage) to stack, it doesn't matter if they are called the same thing or come from the different places or not.

At least not until we start getting features that allows Barbarians, Fighters, and Rogues to stack Strength, Constitution, and/or Dexterity on their weapon attacks.

Green Flame Blade isn't the issue. All the other spells and cantrips are.

This game already lacks consistency and devs that don't understand their own game, we don't need to tack on more inconsistencies in the rules.

[ad_hoc]

So the question to ask yourself is, What other invocations would you take instead?

Are those invocations better than the battlefield control from multiple repelling blasts AND the damage from agonising blast d10 based cantrips? With hex it only gets better at level 5+. This is a very significant part of the warlocks power so you have to work out what you are choosing instead.

How else will you be useful? How else are you going to contribute with your two spells between rests? If there are only two combat turns between rests then the warlock is doing fine; if you need some at-will abilities (before level 11 anyway) then you want to make sure that is effective.

Some warlocks are less hit by this than others - bladelocks as an obvious example. Otherwise you may need a Fey pact warlock - their level 1 ability isn't at will, but should be enough to give you useful things to do when you are not casting your very limited spells.

I think the real question is; how will you be useful to the party for the 2/3 of the game that takes place outside of combat?

[Daishain]

There's a reason Warlocks can build up to by far the best offensive cantrip in the game. Aside from EB being their classic attack, in 5E it is their primary action. Other full casters can spend a lot more turns in a combat casting a spell, as such they aren't relying on cantrips to make an impact. But asking Warlocks to go without EB is a lot like walking up to a greatsword fighter and giving them a longsword to twohand instead. They can make it work, but to call it anything but a notable nerf would be a lie.

Even if one discounts the bladelocks, I'm not going to say a lack of EB will cripple a warlock. 5E is generous in that sense and lesser cantrips capable of the same basic job do exist. But I would seriously question why you're doing it in the first place.

[R.Shackleford]

I think the real question is; how will you be useful to the party for the 2/3 of the game that takes place outside of combat?

Cha based skills and Cha based caster...

[Tanarii]

I think the real question is; how will you be useful to the party for the 2/3 of the game that takes place outside of combat?

That's why I asked if the OP considers a Warlock without Agonizing Blast etc, but with just plain vanilla Eldritch Blast, to be 'seriously hampered'?

An extension of that is, what about Eldritch Blast cantrip, without innovations invocations, and also without Hex? Is that seriously hampered?

[EroGaki]

That's why I asked if the OP considers a Warlock without Agonizing Blast etc, but with just plain vanilla Eldritch Blast, to be 'seriously hampered'?

An extension of that is, what about Eldritch Blast cantrip, without innovations invocations, and also without Hex? Is that seriously hampered?

I was specifically referring to combat; exploration and social are pretty much covered by skills, from the class and backgrounds.

The warlock, more than they other primary casters, rely heavily on their cantrips; their paltry spell slots will either be unused or expended until a short rest. Strangely, they have so few to lean on, and the one that does the bulk of the work is eldritch blast.

[Tanarii]

I was specifically referring to combat; exploration and social are pretty much covered by skills, from the class and backgrounds.

The warlock, more than they other primary casters, rely heavily on their cantrips; their paltry spell slots will either be unused or expended until a short rest. Strangely, they have so few to lean on, and the one that does the bulk of the work is eldritch blast.okay but that doesn't answer my question, which I'll rephrase: Do you consider a Warlock built with Eldritch Blast but without the supporting invocations and/or Hex, to be seriously hampered in combat? In your personal opinion. Not asking for a technical DPR treatise to back up your opinion or anything, just how you personally feel about it, for context.



But asking Warlocks to go without EB is a lot like walking up to a greatsword fighter and giving them a longsword to twohand instead. They can make it work, but to call it anything but a notable nerf would be a lie.
Except for Small Fighters, or especially Small Barbarians. Since that's their two-handing option. :smallwink:

[MeeposFire]

okay but that doesn't answer my question, which I'll rephrase: Do you consider a Warlock built with Eldritch Blast but without the supporting invocations and/or Hex, to be seriously hampered in combat? In your personal opinion. Not asking for a technical DPR treatise to back up your opinion or anything, just how you personally feel about it, for context.



Except for Small Fighters, or especially Small Barbarians. Since that's their two-handing option. :smallwink:

Of course a small race using a two handed weapon rather than sword with a shield is really hampering themselves considering that a small race using a longsword still cannot use the greatweapon fighting feat for its bonus damage which is really the entire point for using a two handed weapon in an optimization discussion.

[RickAllison]

Of course a small race using a two handed weapon rather than sword with a shield is really hampering themselves considering that a small race using a longsword still cannot use the greatweapon fighting feat for its bonus damage which is really the entire point for using a two handed weapon in an optimization discussion.

I think you are misremembering GWF and GWM. The fighting style only needs to wield a weapon in two hands, it is GWM that needs an actual heavy weapon.

[uraniumrooster]

I've been playing a Swashbuckler/Bladelock who uses Spell Sniper and a Whip to cast Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade with a 10' reach, then runs away and hides. It's been pretty fun and effective, and I don't even know EB.

[MeeposFire]

I think you are misremembering GWF and GWM. The fighting style only needs to wield a weapon in two hands, it is GWM that needs an actual heavy weapon.

Sorry I actually meant the feat. The fighting style isn't worth much to a barbarian anyway. I just confuse heir names often for some reason.

[ad_hoc]

That's why I asked if the OP considers a Warlock without Agonizing Blast etc, but with just plain vanilla Eldritch Blast, to be 'seriously hampered'?

An extension of that is, what about Eldritch Blast cantrip, without innovations invocations, and also without Hex? Is that seriously hampered?

Yeah, I think it is an important question.

We can talk about optimization of specific aspects of the game, but when optimizing a character in general we should look at spotlight time.

The character should be optimized to contribute during the entire game time, not just the 1/3 of the game that is combat.

For most character archetypes that means sacrificing one of the pillars, but there is usually little need to sacrifice 2 of them.

Invocations such as Beast Speech, Beguiling Influence, Eldritch Sight, Mask of Many Faces, and Misty Visions are all quite good.

[RickAllison]

Sorry I actually meant the feat. The fighting style isn't worth much to a barbarian anyway. I just confuse heir names often for some reason.

I figured since you were mentioning it with optimization, who talks about GWF with optimization? :smallwink:

[EroGaki]

okay but that doesn't answer my question, which I'll rephrase: Do you consider a Warlock built with Eldritch Blast but without the supporting invocations and/or Hex, to be seriously hampered in combat?




Disclaimer: I haven't actually played a warlock yet, so my answer could be very flawed.

I won't say seriously hampered, but yes. Without the invocations, he's doing a fairly solid amount of damage, on par with a wizard's firebolt. The issue is that the wizard (or sorcerer) has higher level spells to produce more damage, while the warlock doesn't. It seems to me that the ability to modify the eldritch blast is what helps level the playing field, and without those invocations, the warlock lags behind.

Again, just my untested opinion. I could very well be wrong.