Suggestions for Easy-to-Play and Easy-to-Build Mid-Op Epic-Level Gestalt Character

[P.F.]

So my high-school gaming group wants to revive a campaign from way back when. Somewhere in the 25th-to-30th level gestalt. I literally don't even know where to start (I'm a solid mostly-core level-thirteen-minus I-know-a-spell-for-that kinda guy). As much as possible, I want to limit my options. I figure I'll get to use two, maybe three gimmicks per session, and I doubt I will play more than one or two sessions. A reliable schtick with a couple of situational gambits would be perfect.

Ideally I would like a build as close to straight (X//Y) as possible, but 3.5 being what it is, I expect the best I can hope for is one-side single-class or perhaps (base+prestige X//base+prestige Y). I'm open to anything workable that ends up with a straightforward character. My min/max goal is minimal paperwork for maximum combat effectiveness.

The DM is the chief powergamer and rules-lawyer from my high school gaming clique. He likes high numbers, but he's open to creative solutions for difficult encounters. Anything too obviously game-breaky will get LOL'd off the table immediately, so any ridiculous abilities have to be both obscure and completely unambiguous. This means Nightsticking Clerks, Pun-Pun-esque Sorcs, Infinite-Wish Binders, &c are out. Otherwise, anything 3.5 is in. I need a character with strong quantitative optimization, options for killing large groups and/or powerful monsters, and some sort of out-of-combat utility.

As far as epic-level spells, we can safely assume that no spells with long casting times or requiring large groups will be approved. Honestly if I even want to fool with epic level spells they need to have the development modifier "ad hoc," which is consistently lower than anything chosen from the spell seed DC modifier table. But the potential to cast one or more epic level spells would be nice.

As far as my personal preferences go, I would like to have one side full-caster or bard, but I'm open to all possibilities. And a final caveat, I don't want to play a psionic class, but I might need to be able to defend myself against psionics users, if such a thing is possible.

That's it, :smallbiggrin: hit me with your best shot!

[DarkSoul]

Is online material allowed? How about Dragon Magazine and/or Dragon Compendium?

[ExLibrisMortis]

Can you play a monster? I would suggest going straight up paladin 2/battle dancer 1/sorcerer 1/barbarian 1/warblade 20//loredrake wyrmling force dragon/abjurant champion 5 (that's an epic dragon, it's Huge sized). The end result is ECL 25, 11th-level sorcerer spellcasting, charisma to AC twice, charisma to all saves, pounce, and some nice class features from warblade and AC. It's also simple: most of your abilities are basically 'add this number to that number'.

You basically have two gimmicks:
1) High defence, including touch AC (should be ~35), high AC (~70), and saves (~50).
2) Powerful full attack, something like: bite/claw/claw/wing/wing/tail at +40/+38/+38/+38/+38/+38 for 4d8+6d6+90 damage, average of 129, without Power Attack, enhancements or Rapidstrike (which would increase the damage by quite a lot).


If you want a more powerful variant (at ECL 30), you can go with something like cloistered cleric 4/crusader 1/prestige paladin 2/ordained champion 5/ruby knight vindicator 7/dispassionate watcher of chronepsis 11//loredrake young force dragon. That gets you 34th-level cleric spellcasting (but you can houserule it to 30th-level, equal to HD), along with a ton of class features (including CHA to saves, the ability to channel spells, and the ability to detect lies and disguises). It's much more complicated, but really cool.


Make sure to use the Permanent Emanation epic feat, it's pretty great. I'm thinking greater consumptive field if you're nasty, or at least a selective antimagic field.

[Seppo87]

Crusader/Bard all the way up, use Song of the White Raven.

Add perhaps some dips for cha-to-stuff using the "x stat to y bonus" thread

It's simple, of course there is some book keeping but it's basically a cusader + a bard

[MisterKaws]

Well, if you want powerful, but simple to play builds, you'll most likely have to rely on mundanes, and your character sheet will be a mess, even if they're damn easy to play.

I'd suggest abusing the whole Monk/Warforged "body as weapon" and "body as armor" thing to do the usual Metalline shenanigans, netting a Hardness of over 100 post-buffs, but he would most likely just "nope" it the moment you showed him the build.

Maybe just Duskblade 9/Warblade 1/Duskblade +4/Warblade+11//Wizard 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Archmage 5? It's pretty damn good, and just a basic "hit things until they die" gish build, but it packs quite a punch.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Maybe just Duskblade 9/Warblade 1/Duskblade +4/Warblade+11//Wizard 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/Archmage 5? It's pretty damn good, and just a basic "hit things until they die" gish build, but it packs quite a punch.
This build doesn't qualify for Ruby Knight Vindicator, because it can't cast divine spells or turn undead, and it doesn't have a Devoted Spirit stance and maneuver. As minor point, Spellsword 1 is inferior to wizard 5, when gestalted with duskblade.

If you're doing a duskblade/wizard/warblade gish, which is a good option, I'd go with Ultimate Magus, something like duskblade 13/warblade 12//wizard 5/Ultimate Magus 10/Abjurant Champion 5/Archmage 5 (or Incantatrix 3-4/Archmage 1-2, extend to taste for ECL past 25). You end up with 21st-level duskblade casting and 24th-level wizard casting.

[P.F.]

Is online material allowed? How about Dragon Magazine and/or Dragon Compendium?

Probably, but wierdly specific oddballs like Hank's Energy Bow will probably be denied. Otherwise, as long as it's 1st-party published, available for DM review, unambiguously worded, and not obviously game-breakingly overpowered, it should be fine.


Can you play a monster? I would suggest going straight up paladin 2/battle dancer 1/sorcerer 1/barbarian 1/warblade 20//loredrake wyrmling force dragon/abjurant champion 5 (that's an epic dragon, it's Huge sized). The end result is ECL 25, 11th-level sorcerer spellcasting, charisma to AC twice, charisma to all saves, pounce, and some nice class features from warblade and AC. It's also simple: most of your abilities are basically 'add this number to that number'.

You basically have two gimmicks:
1) High defence, including touch AC (should be ~35), high AC (~70), and saves (~50).
2) Powerful full attack, something like: bite/claw/claw/wing/wing/tail at +40/+38/+38/+38/+38/+38 for 4d8+6d6+90 damage, average of 129, without Power Attack, enhancements or Rapidstrike (which would increase the damage by quite a lot).

That's the kind of build I'm looking for, but I'm not sure how Dragon translates into ECL, or how LA is supposed to work with gestalt characters :smallconfused:. Presumably I could assume human form for social purposes, and argue that it's no more broken than starting out in human form and using shapechange to become a huge dragon though, so it can stay on the shortlist for sure :smallwink:.


I'd suggest abusing the whole Monk/Warforged "body as weapon" and "body as armor" thing to do the usual Metalline shenanigans, netting a Hardness of over 100 post-buffs, but he would most likely just "nope" it the moment you showed him the build.

I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand, as it doesn't rely on plot-level supremacy, and the DM likes big numbers. Basically winning individual combats through min/max superiority is fine, it's protracted preparations, minionmancy, pocket-plane abuse, &c, that are likely to unexpectedly not work or stop working if my build is based on them.

I'm curious what the build for this beast would look like, besides Warforged Monk and I assume Warforged Juggernaut in there somewhere?

[MisterKaws]

This build doesn't qualify for Ruby Knight Vindicator, because it can't cast divine spells or turn undead, and it doesn't have a Devoted Spirit stance and maneuver. As minor point, Spellsword 1 is inferior to wizard 5, when gestalted with duskblade.

If you're doing a duskblade/wizard/warblade gish, which is a good option, I'd go with Ultimate Magus, something like duskblade 13/warblade 12//wizard 5/Ultimate Magus 10/Abjurant Champion 5/Archmage 5 (or Incantatrix 3-4/Archmage 1-2, extend to taste for ECL past 25). You end up with 21st-level duskblade casting and 24th-level wizard casting.

Sorry, forgot how to brain there. I meant Jade Phoenix Mage.


I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand, as it doesn't rely on plot-level supremacy, and the DM likes big numbers. Basically winning individual combats through min/max superiority is fine, it's protracted preparations, minionmancy, pocket-plane abuse, &c, that are likely to unexpectedly not work or stop working if my build is based on them.

I'm curious what the build for this beast would look like, besides Warforged Monk and I assume Warforged Juggernaut in there somewhere?

Something like Monk 1/Warforged Fighter 1/Fighter +5(Dungeoncrasher)/Stoneblessed(Goliath) 3/Barbarian(Mountain Rage+Spirit Lion Totem) 1/Crusader 4/Warhulk 10//Somecasterhere 10/Abj. Champ 5/Warblade 5/Somecasterhere+5 would be okay. Chaos Crusader might have your DM on their toes, but as long as you don't start picking up needles for no reason, you should be okay. Two Maneuver classes give you a lot of stuff to do when you really want, but you can also just buff yourself up the wazoo, then charge happily.

There's no need for Warforged Juggernaut, because caster, and you can always cast Greater Luminous Armor and take a book to the head for the 0-penalty +17 AC bonus(+13 Armor, -4 to enemy attacks).

[ExLibrisMortis]

That's the kind of build I'm looking for, but I'm not sure how Dragon translates into ECL, or how LA is supposed to work with gestalt characters :smallconfused:. Presumably I could assume human form for social purposes, and argue that it's no more broken than starting out in human form and using shapechange to become a huge dragon though, so it can stay on the shortlist for sure :smallwink:.
Well, the problem is that there is no listed LA for wyrmling force dragons. It's not in the original ELH, which is 3.0, and it was not added in the 3.5 update booklet. Adult force dragons, however, are LA +0, and dragon LA typically only goes up with age, so wyrmlings must be that or lower. It makes sense to put the wyrmlings at ECL 20, and the very young at ECL 25, young at ECL 30 and so on (epic dragons get 5 RHD per age category, not 3, like regular dragons).

Force dragons do not have Alternate Form by default, but they can pick it up with a feat in Dragons of Eberron, also called Alternate Form. Alternatively, you can cast reduce monster to become a Large dragon, if you want to interact with tiny scaredy humanoids (but why bother, right? humanoids, tsk!). Personally, I wouldn't play a force dragon without rubbing it in everyone's faces all the time - dragon form or bust.


Sorry, forgot how to brain there. I meant Jade Phoenix Mage.
Right, that makes a lot more sense. Yeah, that's a good build, just with the Spellsword level switched with wizard 5 for a feat, or Spontaneous Divination. Maybe add two wizard levels opposite the no-casting JPM levels.

[MisterKaws]

Whew, took me half an hour just to get a decent build order for that Warforged Monk.

Also, I still keep forgetting that there's no need for Spellsword in Gestalt, since you're usually getting a +1 BBA from something else at that level.

Quick edit: The trick is adding Metalline to both your body as a weapon(Monk, with that amulet I always forget) and as an armor(warforged, just enhance your armor with +1/+9 specials), which would supposedly give you 40 base Hardness if going dual-Adamantine. After that, you get a Greater Crystal of Adamant Weaponry, and a Greater Crystal of Adamant Armor, for 60 Hardness. Then you do the buff madness.

The full thing is somewhere here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?285801-Tippy-s-Terrifically-Terrible-Trial), but I'm kinda too tired ATM to search.

[DEMON]

Duskblade 13 / Warblade 12 // Warmage 10 / Rainbow Servant 10 / Abjurant Champion 5
*suggests Warmage (for Epic even), runs away Zoidberg style*

Seriously though, think about it for a while, before dismissing it completely.

The book keeping really isn't that much of a pain, methinks.

[Kaje]

Dwarf Rogue 2 / monk 2 / duskblade 13 / warblade 3 / bloodstorm blade 2 // wizard 5 / runesmith 1 / enlightened fist 7 / spellwarp sniper 5 / wizard 2 is a great 20 level Gish. For epic you'll want 2 more levels of bloodstorm blade and then some legacy champion progressing 4 more levels of spellwarp sniper. Add in some more warblade to fill the gaps. It looks complicated but it's really just a souped up duskblade.

[J-H]

Use Warlock as your 'other side' chassis. It gets tons of passive always-on utility abilities, a reliable ranged damage source (even when mediocre), and handles all of your crafting and UMD needs. It synergizes will with Bard, any melee class (flight/see invisibility/hideous blow/etc), or...well, just about anything.

Eldritch Blast is a 1st-level SLA. You can use the "Monster Feats" on the SRD to quicken it and shoot it as a free action 3 times per day. There's a reasonable case to be made for using a metamagic rod to maximize it as well, in which case you're doing around 96 damage as a free action 3 times per day.

[MisterKaws]

Use Warlock as your 'other side' chassis. It gets tons of passive always-on utility abilities, a reliable ranged damage source (even when mediocre), and handles all of your crafting and UMD needs. It synergizes will with Bard, any melee class (flight/see invisibility/hideous blow/etc), or...well, just about anything.

Eldritch Blast is a 1st-level SLA. You can use the "Monster Feats" on the SRD to quicken it and shoot it as a free action 3 times per day. There's a reasonable case to be made for using a metamagic rod to maximize it as well, in which case you're doing around 96 damage as a free action 3 times per day.

Well, Epic Warlock is indeed kinda ridiculous, with that at-will Shadow Wish and the ridiculous minionmancy potential. But, well, their DM doesn't really like this kind of stuff, so it might get messy.

[P.F.]

Dwarf Rogue 2 / monk 2 / duskblade 13 / warblade 3 / bloodstorm blade 2 // wizard 5 / runesmith 1 / enlightened fist 7 / spellwarp sniper 5 / wizard 2 is a great 20 level Gish. For epic you'll want 2 more levels of bloodstorm blade and then some legacy champion progressing 4 more levels of spellwarp sniper. Add in some more warblade to fill the gaps. It looks complicated but it's really just a souped up duskblade.

I've never liked duskblade before, but gestalted with a real caster it gets a whole lot better.


Use Warlock as your 'other side' chassis. It gets tons of passive always-on utility abilities, a reliable ranged damage source (even when mediocre), and handles all of your crafting and UMD needs. It synergizes will with Bard, any melee class (flight/see invisibility/hideous blow/etc), or...well, just about anything.

Eldritch Blast is a 1st-level SLA. You can use the "Monster Feats" on the SRD to quicken it and shoot it as a free action 3 times per day. There's a reasonable case to be made for using a metamagic rod to maximize it as well, in which case you're doing around 96 damage as a free action 3 times per day.


Well, Epic Warlock is indeed kinda ridiculous, with that at-will Shadow Wish and the ridiculous minionmancy potential. But, well, their DM doesn't really like this kind of stuff, so it might get messy.

I'm not above eating the meat and leaving the most egregiously banhammerable options on the side of my plate, but to be honest I'm underwhelmed by the warlock's class features and invocation list. Perhaps I'm missing something?

[J-H]

It gives you a ton of always-on easy-to-use buffs that basically take care of 100% of your mobility and sense needs, plus some skill bonuses and neat tricks. If you're a melee build, Eldritch Blast lets you make a ranged attack (if needed) without having to invest a bunch of WBL in a ranged weapon. If you have CHA to boost your DC, that ranged attack (which, as I mentioned, can be a free action a few times per day) can inflict level drain or a few other debuffs.

DR /cold iron is nice, although the amount is small. Fast Healing 25 is pretty good. So is a 50% miss chance with no stated duration and free at-will access to 8th-level and below wizard shadow casting.

The biggest advantage is that you get pretty much all of these benefits without expending actions in combat, so that you can start doing whatever you do right away. Is it as powerful as ??//Wizard or //Psion? No.

Epic Warlock feats (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20061027a).

final edit: I've edited this post 4 times to add stuff while reading through the Epic Warlock feats. My next Epic build is going to be a Warlock.

[vasilidor]

I was moderately effective with a straight warlock//rogue 30//30 build once... got sneak attack to eldritch blast, and had feats that allowed for sneak attack against darn near everything. Don't remember where or what they were though.

[DarkSoul]

I was moderately effective with a straight warlock//rogue 30//30 build once... got sneak attack to eldritch blast, and had feats that allowed for sneak attack against darn near everything. Don't remember where or what they were though.Throw in Craven for +level on sneak attack, maybe some ambush feats for other effects.

@OP: Gestalt works well with one passive side and one active side, because while you have the abilities of two characters, you only have the actions per round of one. Rogue being the passive side works well because it gives you the skills to have something to do in non-combat situations, but still gives you a ton of sneak attack dice on eldritch blasts for your warlock. Warlock 30 (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20061027a) gives 15d6 eldritch blasts, and rogue 30 gives 15d6 sneak attacks. Some careful feat selection from that link could increase your effectiveness quite a bit.

[MisterKaws]

I'm not above eating the meat and leaving the most egregiously banhammerable options on the side of my plate, but to be honest I'm underwhelmed by the warlock's class features and invocation list. Perhaps I'm missing something?

The problem is in the epic Warlock feats already linked. Some of them are copied straight from Deity abilities, others give ridiculous minionmancy power, one of which also pretty much trivializes all the H.I.V.E optimization, and another of these, combined with Shadowcraft Mage, results in an at-will Shadow Wish.

You could also do a 30-ish d6 Hellfire Glaive with those feats if you really wanted, but it's not like damage does much at that level, unless you make a full Mailman.

[Naez]

As far as simplicity goes I've always been a fan of Druid|Monk or Paladin|Sorcerer. I did play a fun Deadly Hunter Druid|WS Ranger/Master of many forms build once though and that's pretty similar.

[Calthropstu]

Lvl 30 druid. Short simple, ultimately customizable.

[icefractal]

Lvl 30 druid. Short simple, ultimately customizable.A perfect example of "easy to build" and "easy to play" being often opposed. :smalltongue: Druid is a lot of complexity even at 10th level.

Although I guess Summons being largely obsolete at that level would simplify things a bit.

[P.F.]

The problem is in the epic Warlock feats already linked. Some of them are copied straight from Deity abilities, others give ridiculous minionmancy power, one of which also pretty much trivializes all the H.I.V.E optimization, and another of these, combined with Shadowcraft Mage, results in an at-will Shadow Wish.

You could also do a 30-ish d6 Hellfire Glaive with those feats if you really wanted, but it's not like damage does much at that level, unless you make a full Mailman.

Yeah, couple of those epic feats take severely meh invocations and turn them into outright awesome (Visionary, Transient), and I would guess that Shadowmaster is the one which pairs with Shadowcraft Mage. But those three have prerequisites of 11 invocations total, most of which are admittedly okay, but their effects are subsumed by the feats which require them. That leaves me with only 1 elective invocation. Also I see a handful of references scattered around the web to "Shadow Wish" but it doesn't seem to exist, as shadow spells are 8th-level and lower and wish is a 9th level spell. Although, even limited wish as an at-will ability is nothing to scoff at. I'll probably skip being a gnome, though.

Insofar as optimized eldritch blasts go, I feel like the charms of "let's add up the pips on 60 dice" will wear off pretty quickly, so I'd fall off pretty sharply after I use up my allotment of maximized blasts.

Still, warlock is another class that I had little interest in on its own but which offers a lot more as half of a gestalt.

[J-H]

If this is for tabletop instead of online play, I'd ask the DM if you could use the electronic dice roller of his choice (there are several free apps) to roll your tens of d6s faster.

[MisterKaws]

"Shadow Wish" is just a nickname for the Shadowcraft Mage's ability to do a Wish-like spell duplication effect, which is pretty ridiculous. A Warlock/Shadowcraft Mage can basically cast any Conjuration spell of up to 8th level at-will as an SLA. If you don't see how broken this can become, I think you standards are a bit too high.

[icefractal]

Although to be confusing, Shadow Miracle does literally mean the Miracle spell. Which is obtained by using Earth Spell to make a Heightened illusion count as a 10th level spell, thus allowing 9th level spells to be emulated (and the fact that Miracle is Evocation).

[MisterKaws]

Although to be confusing, Shadow Miracle does literally mean the Miracle spell. Which is obtained by using Earth Spell to make a Heightened illusion count as a 10th level spell, thus allowing 9th level spells to be emulated (and the fact that Miracle is Evocation).

So there are different terms for each of the two, or did I just misunderstand the technique for this long? Wouldn't be surprising, I still don't know what's the trend with using Orcus as a counter to munchkin behavior.

Also, I still don't know why the hell they thought making Miracle an Evocation spell was a good idea...

[ExLibrisMortis]

Also, I still don't know why the hell they thought making Miracle an Evocation spell was a good idea...
Well, you see, just like healers and truenamers get gate, to make up for their general low power, warmages needed access to a nice evocation spell. It's just that miracle was unfortunately put on the wrong spell list :smallfrown:.

[P.F.]

If this is for tabletop instead of online play, I'd ask the DM if you could use the electronic dice roller of his choice (there are several free apps) to roll your tens of d6s faster.

Well, last session included the banning of dice apps by the DM's brother (who was the DM at the time). But, in the event that we do end up playing protracted games of "count the pips," I think the precedent could be overturned, at least for d6's.


"Shadow Wish" is just a nickname for the Shadowcraft Mage's ability to do a Wish-like spell duplication effect, which is pretty ridiculous. A Warlock/Shadowcraft Mage can basically cast any Conjuration spell of up to 8th level at-will as an SLA. If you don't see how broken this can become, I think you standards are a bit too high.

Yeah, you won't catch me disputing the utility of shades at +20% as an at-will spell-like ability :smallwink:


Although to be confusing, Shadow Miracle does literally mean the Miracle spell. Which is obtained by using Earth Spell to make a Heightened illusion count as a 10th level spell, thus allowing 9th level spells to be emulated (and the fact that Miracle is Evocation).

I'm intrigued as to how exactly that is supposed to work ... what spell are we casting here?

[icefractal]

I'm intrigued as to how exactly that is supposed to work ... what spell are we casting here?Usually Silent Image, but it's the Shadowcraft Mage class ability that makes it work. It lets you use any illusion spell as a variant Shadow Conjuration/Evocation, emulating anything up to one level below the spell used.