Subtle spell questions

[mymindilost]

How does subtle spell work on spells like friends, charm person, and suggestion? Do the targets still know it was you if it wasn't obvious you cast the spell?

[Quintessence]

How does subtle spell work on spells like friends, charm person, and suggestion? Do the targets still know it was you if it wasn't obvious you cast the spell?

Personally I would simply rule that they know they were charmed but have no idea by who.

[famousringo]

This really depends on the DM. And probably varies by spell.

For example, Friends explicitly states that the target realizes you enchanted it and becomes hostile. There's no indication that this realization is in any way dependent on sight or sound of you casting.

Suggestion on the other hand, has no indication that the target ever realizes it was enchanted. If nobody sees you cast, there's no indication that you're the source of the target's aberrant behavior.

[Officer Joy]

Hope it's okay to ask this question here. But does subtle spell make something immune to Counterspell?

[NNescio]

Hope it's okay to ask this question here. But does subtle spell make something immune to Counterspell?

They don't see you casting a spell, they don't get to use Counterspell (because the necessary trigger "1 reaction, which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell" never happens). This applies even if the Counterspeller can read your mind, since they still don't get to see anything.

With pure V/S/VS spells it is clear they don't see anything (no lip movements and no visible gestures when Subtle'd). With M components it becomes less clear-cut, because now there's something to see (even if it's just the caster holding a focus or retrieving something from his components pouch).

[R.Shackleford]

They don't see you casting a spell, they don't get to use Counterspell (because the necessary trigger "1 reaction, which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell" never happens). This applies even if the Counterspeller can read your mind, since they still don't get to see anything.

With pure V/S/VS spells it is clear they don't see anything (no lip movements and no visible gestures when Subtle'd). With M components it becomes less clear-cut, because now there's something to see (even if it's just the caster holding a focus or retrieving something from his components pouch).

They see you pointing a wand but nothing happens (at first) so they start to laugh at you... However the spell then takes effect.

Essentially by the time they realize you actually did cast a spell it's too late for them to use their reaction because you are done casting the spell.

[Dalebert]

Pointing the wand is a somatic component and thus not required when you use Subtle Spell. You just have to have the material component or focus in your hand. Most casters will have a focus in hand all the time, particularly if they own a magic wand or staff that can be used as one. Subtle Spell thus consistently gets around Counterspell in the same way that invisibility gets around any spell that requires you to be able to see your target. As was said, the description reads as "when you see someone casting".

Charm spells that says someone realizes they were charmed after--they feel charmed toward a specific creature and their attitude changes after, so they know which creature charmed them. Where ambiguity emerges is when the creature looks completely different, e.g. you cast Disguise Self, Friends, go in a shop and buy something with advantage on haggling, then step out before it ends and cast Disguise Self again to look different. Now when Friends ends, the shopkeeper runs out angrily seeking the original person whom he knows charmed him. That person is not in sight. Some DMs will say he can still sense who charmed him but I personally think that's a stretch. He knows he was charmed a lovely young lady but she's nowhere in sight.

[R.Shackleford]

Pointing the wand is a somatic component and thus not required when you use Subtle Spell. You just have to have the material component or focus in your hand. Most casters will have a focus in hand all the time, particularly if they own a magic wand or staff that can be used as one. Subtle Spell thus consistently gets around Counterspell in the same way that invisibility gets around any spell that requires you to be able to see your target. As was said, the description reads as "when you see someone casting".

Charm spells that says someone realizes they were charmed after--they feel charmed toward a specific creature and their attitude changes after, so they know which creature charmed them. Where ambiguity emerges is when the creature looks completely different, e.g. you cast Disguise Self, Friends, go in a shop and buy something with advantage on haggling, then step out before it ends and cast Disguise Self again to look different. Now when Friends ends, the shopkeeper runs out angrily seeking the original person whom he knows charmed him. That person is not in sight. Some DMs will say he can still sense who charmed him but I personally think that's a stretch. He knows he was charmed a lovely young lady but she's nowhere in sight.

Well, by using context, one will see that the wand is being used as a material component (and for humor sake). You.could change it to bat poo, cricket legs, or whatever else.

"Somatic (S)

Spellcasting gestures might include a forceful gesticulation or an intricate set of gestures. If a spell requires a somatic component, the caster must have free use of at least one hand to perform these gestures."

"Material (M)

Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry. A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in “Equipment”) in place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell.

If a spell states that a material component is consumed by the spell, the caster must provide this component for each casting of the spell.

A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell’s material components—or to hold a spellcasting focus—but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components."

Sorry but the wand isn't a somatic component. Gesturing may be, but presenting a wand isnt.

If weapons can be material components so can wands.

[Dalebert]

Reaching into a pouch and retrieving something is not spellcasting. It still doesn't give someone a clear indication that you're casting a spell. You could be reaching into a pouch to grab a potion to save for drinking later. You could be grabbing some ball bearings to scatter on the ground. The point remains. You don't have to do any somatic components. You just have to have the material component in hand (if it has one), or a focus when a focus is allowed. A wand can remain down at your side. A staff can just be held as if you're leaning on it. Even if a component gets used up, then it just vanishes from your grasp. None of this changes the fact that no one sees you casting anything when you use Subtle Spell. Hence the name.

We don't seem to disagree that it can't be countered but your version involves overt signals that a spell is being cast when the point of Subtle Spell is to be able to cast a spell and have no one the wiser. A sorcerer could assassinate someone in a busy tavern with Phantasmal Force and just be sitting there holding his staff and drinking an ale when it happens. That's a primary benefit of the metamagic that gets defeated if he has to flagrantly wave a wand in the direction of the target--a somatic component.

[MaxBoguely]

First:

They see you pointing a wand but nothing happens ...

Then:

Well, by using context, one will see that the wand is being used as a material component

BUT THEN:

Sorry but the wand isn't a somatic component. Gesturing may be, but presenting a wand isnt.


Next:

We have always been at war with Eastasia.