If you were me, how would you feel about spell compendium?

[Albions_Angel]

Hi all

This is a tricky one. I will be treading the fine line between potential power level, actual power level and power level/book keeping efficiency. PLEASE READ VERY CAREFULLY!

After long deliberation, I have settled on my set books, where they apply in the world, which ones the players will likely encounter, which ones my players can be, and even which ones I as a DM can pull stuff from. The list is as follows:


DM only books:

DMG
DMG2
MMII (updated) -> MMV
Monster Compendium I and II


Player and DM free use books:

PHB I
PHB II
MM I
Complete X (excluding Psionics)
Races of X (the four core ones)
Frostburn
Stormwrack
Sandstorm (the region of play is cold, this is mostly for my players to use)
Magic of Incarnum
Dragon Magic
Tome of Magic


Classes (inc variants), Feats and Spells only

Unearthed Arcana
Eberron Campaign Setting


Races on request (players only)

Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting




My games are low op, mid tier games. Most people play Tier 3 or 4, tier 5 isnt uncommon, most people dont play wizards or caster clerics (beyond healing and buffing spells) because of book keeping issues. You know, your standard, casual game.

Now, up until recently, my group has banned Spell Compendium. Their reasoning is that the new spells introduced in SC (or compiled from books we dont usually have access to) are too powerful and game breaking.

I UNDERSTAND THAT POLYMORPH, SUMMON MONSTER X AND WISH ARE SOME OF THE MOST POWERFUL, MOST GAME BREAKING SPELLS IN ALL THE BOOKS, AND ARE IN THE SRD, BUT THEY ALL REQUIRE MORE BOOKWORK THAN MY PLAYERS TEND TO WANT TO DO!

There are a lot of spells in the SC. Many of them are pulled from the other books I have listed, but some are not. I half remember something about orb or sphere spells being stupidly powerful in some very easy builds. Mailman? I cant remember it all right now.

So my question to you is this. In a game where my players tend to either be too inexperienced to take game breaking spells, or where they actively choose not to in order not to break the game, will allowing SC lead to situations where a player selects a fire and forget spell that ends in game breaking levels of power? I am not talking about intentional game breaking, but accidental "Oh, that spell is way more powerful than most blasting spells at this level, I just killed the BBEG in one hit at level 5" situations.

Thanks. Happy to answer questions on what my group has done in the past, but please, if I come back and say "my group doesnt do that", dont argue and tell me what they SHOULD be doing to break my games.

[Troacctid]

I'm pretty sure the Spell Compendium is 100% reprints, with some renamed spells but none that are actually new. And a ton of the spells in the book—including most of the "powerful" ones like the orb spells—are reprints from books you've already allowed. I wouldn't expect any problems. Nerveskitter is a bit strong, but that's the only one I can think of that you don't already have.

[Beheld]

Zero of the spells in the Spell Compendium are broken under any circumstance. It's literally a reprint compilation that nerfs a bunch of spells from the Completes and other sources.

Like, if you absolutely put a gun to my head and said "Which spells will ever even slightly bother anyone who was okay with Flesh to Stone or Glitterdust or Cloudkill?" I would say Avasculate and Glass Strike (if your DM really loves specifically undead).

[Seppo87]

afaik "Bite of the were..." line and Superior Resistance aren't found anywhere else

[eggynack]

I don't think SpC is entirely reprints. It's got a lot of reprints, sure, but it's not just those. I mean, Troacctid, you literally just named nerveskitter. Was that in another book before, cause it doesn't seem like it was. Enhance wild shape too, which I'ma probably bring up below. Really a counterexample to both claims, that one, that the book is only reprints and that the book has nothing broken.

Anyway, the spell compendium has some pretty strong spells, but those spells tend to be more on the practical optimization side of power. Yes, orb spells can be good, but they're mostly just your standard damage spells with a rider. The mailman is a very complex build, and the broken elements are really the metamagic and reducers rather than the base spell itself. As I noted above, enhance wild shape is crazy, and broken under certain circumstances, but that's the exception rather than the rule. The higher end stuff in that book tends to look a lot more like kelpstrand. Really good spell, there's no doubting that, but you're ultimately just getting an above average debuff rather than something that'll actively break the game. You mentioned the thing about core being the source of most brokenness, but the important thing is that spell compendium spells are mostly just not like those broken spells. So, the book has its moments, and it has its wholly new stuff, and some spells fit in the intersection of that venn diagram (nerveskitter is great, as was noted), but you can probably safely add the book to your game, and maybe ban the few corner case great stuff when it comes up.

[Troacctid]

All of those are reprints too.



Spell
Original appearance


Bite of the were...
Web articles (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20020608a)


Enhance wild shape
Dragon #292 (as enhance wildshape)


Nerveskitter
Magic of Faerun (as Kaupaer's skittish nerves)


Superior resistance
Savage Species

[nedz]

The main advantage of the SpC is the support it gives to the half-casters - but, as others have said, it's all available elsewhere; though many of the sources are obscure.

Also, many of the reprints are tidied up with quite a few changes.

[Beheld]

Also, many of the reprints are tidied up with quite a few changes.

I think for the most part, they are positive changes. Obviously I have not read every spell in every source to compare them, but for example, I cannot possibly imagine anyone in the world who would willingly choose to use Wall of Water from Sandstorm rather than the spell Compendium:

Wall of Water from the SpC: Makes a wall 10ft thick in 10ft squares. You are in water when you are in the wall, and you are not in water when you are not in the wall. Provides cover. Ref save to move to one side if you have the movement.

Sandstorm: No save puts people in water. Makes 1ft wall of water in 10ft Blocks ????? HUH? What even is that? Then creates a weird swim check DC based on CL (unclear if swim speed creatures need to make the check) then can be frozen or melted to make fog cloud or wall of ice. Also has a variable attack penalty for ranged attacks that may or may not stack with regular water penalty attacks. Blocks line of effect for fire spells.

Or even worse, Slime Wave form the Fiendish Codex:

"In addition, one patch of green slime adheres to each creature in the area for every 5 feet of its face." Is a Medium Creature 4 faces? 6? 8 because height? 10 because height and top and bottom? And then repeat all those questions for Large, Huge, ect.

[ace rooster]

If book keeping is a concern, you could maybe insist on only the PH and spell compendium for spells, with specific requested exceptions (that have to be marked as such whenever recorded). That way you should always be able to find spells quickly. You can use it to consolidate book-keeping, and speed up the game.

[OldTrees1]

So my question to you is this. In a game where my players tend to either be too inexperienced to take game breaking spells, or where they actively choose not to in order not to break the game, will allowing SC lead to situations where a player selects a fire and forget spell that ends in game breaking levels of power? I am not talking about intentional game breaking, but accidental "Oh, that spell is way more powerful than most blasting spells at this level, I just killed the BBEG in one hit at level 5" situations.

Thanks. Happy to answer questions on what my group has done in the past, but please, if I come back and say "my group doesnt do that", dont argue and tell me what they SHOULD be doing to break my games.

For the most part, SC will be fine for your group. Most of its spells are balanced or underpowered even for your group. Even Orb spells should be fine for your group (Mailman abuses Arcane Fusion which is in Complete Mage). However there are probably a handful of spells in the Spell Compendium that might result in accidental overpowered situations. The one that jumps to mind is Celerity however despite being overpowered for your group, it would only lend itself to accidentally doing double the blasting damage so I don't think it would result in killing the BBEG in one hit.

So as far as your balance concerns are concerned, an incident is technically possible but unlikely. The vast majority of the book should be fine for your group.

As far as book keeping efficiency, from my reading of your post your group tends to not be casters. Spell Compendium is a book for caster PCs.
Edit: Not that kind of book keeping

[Albions_Angel]

So a note on the book keeping I mentioned.

From a DMs perspective, I have 0 issues with new spells, classes, races, etc. Frankly, while I have built a fairly good knowledge of the typical stuff we play with, I dont mind not knowing what a player uses. If anything, I will ask what a spell does as they cast it. If I need to, I have resources that I can quickly turn to.

From the players perspective, well they do play casters. I would say a good half the party is usually a caster of some sort, but they arnt optimized casters, and their strength is usually in buffing or crowd control. Our group uses in combat healing an awful lot (which the playground hates, probably due to action economy, but screw the action economy, if the fighter falls over, that player becomes a spectator for however many rounds and may die and thats not very fun). And we use gishes and odd caster classes. One of my favorite campaigns was me as a duskblade, with a battle cleric, battle sorc, beguiler and one barbarian. Adding a few more spells wouldnt hurt that.

What I meant by they dont like book keeping was in reference to things like polymorph or summon monster x. Both of those require you to have lists of stat blocks for things you want to turn into or summon, for any possible situation. You are lucky in our games if the DRUID turns into more than one creature per wildshape category. My party doesnt abuse those spells because its too much prework.

Anyway, hope thats cleared up. Looks like its fine to use. I will probably use the "specific trumps general" rule, so unless my group specifically requests to use the SC version, if their spell comes from an allowed book, I will use that one. Then all SC will do is add the spells from other books.

[J-H]

One disadvantage to the Spell Compendium is that it doesn't explicitly add spells to the casting list for most of the non-PHB major casters: Warmages, Beguilers, Duskblades, DNs, Hexblades, etc.

[Albions_Angel]

I was thinking about that. It adds to Assassin (for some odd reason, that class exists in this weird limbo and they went and stuck it in the DMG rather than the PHB) which almost nothing else does, but then doesnt add to any of the classes from the books it pulls spells from. Not totally sure how to handle that. Or even if I should.

[DarkSoul]

In my opinion the first spell you ban isn't anything from the Compendium. It's Shivering Touch and the lesser version from Frostburn. It was the first, and so far only, spell I've outright banned.

The orb spells are strong because they're no spell resistance and hit hard with save to avoid a debuff. There's no save against the damage because they're conjuration spells and rely on a touch attack. As has been mentioned though it's the metamagic the Mailman stacks on it and other tricks of the build that makes it so good. The spells themselves are just there for guaranteed damage.

[mabriss lethe]

As a DM, I think the Spell compendium is wonderful. It makes consolidating and quick referencing much easier, since you'll be going back to that single book 90% of the time instead of pouring through your entire library every time someone needs to look up a spell reference. As others have said, most of the edits to existing spells in SC significantly improve game balance. in most of my games you have to give me a really good reason to use an earlier version of a spell that appears in the SC.

[Fizban]

I feel compelled to point out that the standard DnD party is in fact half spellcasters, with a Wizard and a Cleric. So I would rather hope they're bringing at least that much.

The Warmage is already lacking on spells simply because the two books it draws from, PHB and Complete Arcane, are severely lacking in the sort of spells it wants. There's a clear theme going on in the early levels that just stops, but SpC gives you plenty of spells to fill it back in. Dug this up from an old thread:
spell compendium (+PHB)
1: +corrosive grasp, ice dagger, wall of smoke, scatterspray, blades of fire (SpC dropped to 1st)
2: +scorch, snowball swarm, snake's swiftness? (flame blade)
3: +acid breath, icelance, chain missile, rust ray
4: +(dispel magic), defenestrating sphere? ("divine" power?)
5: +(waves of fatigue), vitriolic sphere, earth reaver
6: +(greater dispel magic), +acid storm,
7: +radiant assault
8: +bombardment, avasculate (and -incendiary cloud and polar ray because they suck and I hate them)
9: +black blade of disaster

That most of what you need for a Warmage fix right there, calibrated against the Beguiler, ignoring Orb duplicates and Beguiler spells with HD caps. Note how the Beguiler is rolling in fun low level spells while the Warmage is lame, so there's a ton there. Dispel Magic makes more sense on the Warmage than either the Beguiler or Dread Necro so it definitely ought to show up, and I have no idea why Waves of Fatigue was missing in the first place.

As for the general question, well there are definitely some spells in SpC that could rock your low-op world. While a lot of the spells are updated versions of those on your allowed list, there are also lots of spells from Forgotten Realms books or web articles. Regardless of original source, something like Assay Spell Resistance is a nasty surprise if you expect casters to actually worry about spell resistance. Spell Matrix lets you Quicken spells without Quicken Spell. Cloud of Bewilderment is in fact Stinking Cloud at level 2 instead of 3. Summon Undead can get you Shadows and Allips. Bite of the Were-X gives you huge numbers on par with Wild Shape or Polymorph, without the bookkeeping (and stack with them if they decide to go for it). Energy Transformation Field is the kind of thing you can use to break open a setting, with less DM regulation than there is on Planar Binding or infinite traps. Rhino's Rush and Lion's Pounce provide charge bonuses you're probably not expecting. The (Something) Pact line appears in Races of Destiny with exorbitant xp costs, but in SpC they have quite minimal gp costs. Heroics just laughs in the face of feats in general. Oh, and Wraithstrike, how could I forget about Wraithstrike?

On the whole though, I'd say you should allow it, or at least consider requests. There are a ton of great effects in there that I just can't see character building without, it's a massive pile of fun stuff. I'd say the worst problems are the meta-caster effects, the spells where someone went "hey, this restriction on casters is annoying, I'm gonna write a spell to get rid of it!" Assay Spell Resistance, Spell Matrix, Spell Engine, Energy Transformation Field, Nerveskitter, and Heroics are some of the most egregious (screw SR, screw feats, screw preparing spells, screw everything, screw initiative, and screw feats again), even if most of those aren't usually mentioned. Just going spell by spell and axing whatever seems too strong for too little would do the job: Nerveskitter and Assay Resistance require little or no effort and Wraithstrike works on any simple gish, for examples, so they're probably right out. Spell Matrix and Anyspell on the other hand, require some bookkeeping, which seems to work as a balance for your group so you can allow them alongside Polymorph and Artificers.

Oh, and I remembered I have an expanded Hexblade list, it's pretty long though:

Add from PHB: Grease, Remove Curse
Updated in SpC: Augment Familiar, Phantom Threat, Cursed Blade

Spell Compendium
1st
Augment Familiar
Backbiter
Blood Wind
Critical Strike
Cheat
Distract Assailant
Distort Speech
Know Greatest Enemy
Net of Shadows
Phantom Threat
Shadow Mask
Swift Expeditious Retreat
Swift Invisibility
Weapon Shift

2nd
Bladeweave
Cloud of Bewilderment
Curse of Impending Blades
Earthbind
Entice Gift
Enhance Familiar
Fortify Familiar
Death Armor
Know Vulnerabilities
Greater Alarm
Mesmerizing Glare
Mindless Rage
Miser's Envy
Nightmare Lullaby
Phantasmal Assailants
Phantom Foe
Reflective Disguise
Shadow Spray
Slapping Hand
Surefooted Stride
Wall of Gloom
Wraithstrike
Whirling Blade

3rd
Anticipate Teleportation
Blacklight
Corpse Candle
Know Opponent
Love's Lament
Mass Curse of Impending Blades
Mind Poison
Puppeteer
Regal Procession
Reverse Arrows
Servant Horde
Shadow Binding
Shadow Cache
Spider Poison
Spectral Weapon

4th
Cursed Blade
Corporeal Instability
Draconic Might
Forceward
Ray Deflection
Ruin Delver's Fortune
Sensory Deprivation
The key for adding spells to the Hexblade list is that they've got (very) limited spells known, so harshly limiting their class list is dumb. The main restriction is that you don't want any spells which stack with/step on the toes of Hexblade's Curse in the save or screwed department, but other than that any spell that feels spooky/dark/mean/etc is perfectly okay. They're also supposed to be gishy, so they should get the gishy spells. Master's Touch and Weapon Shift are useless on people without high BAB, but a Hexblade could actually maybe use them, so throw it on, etc. And I threw in a couple actually *good* spells like Blacklight as a stealth buff.

[AnachroNinja]

I'd recommend ALWAYS using the spell compendium versions of spells over the originally printed versions. It across the board does a much better job of balancing the spells and gives everyone the same source in one place.

[Albions_Angel]

So I think I will add SpC, and suggest my players use its duplicates over those in older books. I have also used the expanded lists for Warmage and Hexblade provided. I havnt expanded Beguiler because the consensus seems to be that their list isnt the problem. I am also using Fax's Duskblade list given here, which adds SpC, MoI and a few other spells. I am not using Rolands list because I am not including those books. I dont think those spells show up in SpC either.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=2416523&postcount=4

Does that feel right for duskblade? I do so love the class.

Any other lists I should look at updating?

[Andezzar]

I was thinking about that. It adds to Assassin (for some odd reason, that class exists in this weird limbo and they went and stuck it in the DMG rather than the PHB) which almost nothing else does, but then doesnt add to any of the classes from the books it pulls spells from. Not totally sure how to handle that. Or even if I should.Assassin is in the DMG because no PrCs are in the PHB. Initially PrCs were thought as something the DM could give out, not something that the players train their characters for.

It adds to the assassin spell list because that is the one class in a mandatory book besides the PHB that gets its own casting. Bard, cleric, druid, ranger sorcerer and wizard also get their spell lists expanded.

The other casting classes like warmage are from optional books. There usually isn't much support for such classes outside the book they are in. I guess the reasoning behind that decision is not wanting to fill a book with lots of potentially useless stuff.

[Beheld]

Cloud of Bewilderment is in fact Stinking Cloud at level 2 instead of 3.

And yet, still weaker than Glitterdust. Which, aside from Save DC (and even has that equal if you use the houserule everyone should us, Save DCs equal 10+1/2 character level+Stat mod) Glitterdust is just better than Stinking Cloud.

[nedz]

So I think I will add SpC, and suggest my players use its duplicates over those in older books.
Well that's the RAW - newer publication takes precedent - you would have to houserule it differently.


Any other lists I should look at updating?

Healer FWIW. Probably not worth the effort.

[Troacctid]

I'd update the wu jen and shugenja with elemental-themed spells too.

[Big Fau]

Zero of the spells in the Spell Compendium are broken under any circumstance.

Spell Matrix and Greater Consumptive Field are seriously dangerous spells. There's a bunch of others, but I'm AFB and can't check them.

[Requiem_Jeer]

It adds to the assassin spell list because that is the one class in a mandatory book besides the PHB that gets its own casting. Bard, cleric, druid, ranger sorcerer and wizard also get their spell lists expanded.

*coughblackguardcough*

[AnachroNinja]

Spell matrix is a reasonable work around for sorcerers without using a bunch of extras. Greater consumptive field is really only broken for DMM clerics. I think in his circumstance they will be fine.

[Beheld]

Spell Matrix and Greater Consumptive Field are seriously dangerous spells. There's a bunch of others, but I'm AFB and can't check them.

Okay Fine, if you voltron together DMM Persist, there are problems, but I think that comes down to DMM Persist, not the spells that are broken when you persist them.

[Crake]

I'd recommend ALWAYS using the spell compendium versions of spells over the originally printed versions. It across the board does a much better job of balancing the spells and gives everyone the same source in one place.

Pretty much this, a lot of the versions of spells OUTSIDE of the spell compendium are hilariously broken, the spell compendium recompiled them, adjusted them and made them much nicer. If someone's using a spell that appears in another book and the spell compendium, I always use the spell compendium version.

[Fizban]

So I think I will add SpC, and suggest my players use its duplicates over those in older books. I have also used the expanded lists for Warmage and Hexblade provided.
That actually makes me really happy, I'm glad you like them :smallbiggrin:

I am also using Fax's Duskblade list given here, which adds SpC, MoI and a few other spells.
The Duskblade list seems very liberal to me, plenty of spells that I don't think are actually in line with what the PHB2 has at all, but are there because they're spells a Duskblade would want. There is no hint of bodily transformation in PHB2 for example, but they have Displacer Form and Girallon's Blessing on there. No "create a weapon" effects but there's the entire SpC family of them. If we're just expanding the Duskblade list, what about other PHB spells like normal Expeditious Retreat? If we're allowing Moon Blade despite it's cleric domain only status, why not Aspect of the Wolf from Druid to go with Displacer Form and Flame Blade instead of Flame Dagger? And I can't say I agree with pushing Frost Breath and Lion's Charge so far back: if you think they're too good then don't use them, but nerfing them for one class doesn't help and only ensures they'll use a wand of Lion's Charge instead.

So here's a list from me. Duskblade is already considered good, or at least better than Hexblade (the spell list was one of multiple upgrades for Hex), so it doesn't need buffing via spell access, though some spells do need to be moved. The goal here is to add spells while sticking closely to the super restricted list given in PHB2, which includes not using anything from non-Sor/Wiz lists.
PHB/PHB 2
1st
Expeditious Retreat
Feather Fall

2nd
False Life
Spectral Hand

3rd
Arcane Sight
Contagion
Dispel Magic*

4th
Blight
Slashing Dispel*
Sonic Shield*

5th
Etherealness, Swift
Dispel Magic, Greater

*Reduced from original level

Spell Compendium
0th
Electric Jolt
Launch Bolt
Launch Item

1st
Benign Transposition
Blades of Fire
Buzzing Bee
Corrosive Grasp
Deep Breath
Dispel Ward
Fist of Stone
Hail of Stone
Ice Dagger
Incite
Inhibit
Low-Light Vision
Ray of Clumsiness
Ray of Flame
Spell Flower
Wings of the Sea

2nd
Baleful Transposition
Battering Ram
Body of the Sun
Combust**
Daggerspell Stance
Death Armor
Fireburst
Rainbow Beam
Ray of Ice
Ray of Stupidity**
Scorch
Weapon of Energy

3rd
Belker Claws
Disrupt Undead, Greater
Dolorous Blow**
False Gravity
Hailstones
Ray of Dizzyness**
Sound Lance
Weapon of Impact

4th
Corporeal Instability
Rainbow Blast
Ray of Deanimation

5th
Acid Sheath
Dimension Door, Greater
Dragonsight
Fireburst, Greater
Moonbow
Night's Caress
Prismatic Ray
Ray Deflection
Reciprocal Gyre

**Combust is a dramatic increase in damage over Shocking Grasp/Vampiric Touch.
Dolorous Blow auto-confirms crits, watch out.
Ray of Dizzyness is quite strong, especially with full BAB and Quick Cast.
Ray of Stupidity is stupid strong, similar to Shivering Touch.
Jump has a 1 min/level duration, so I see good reason to lack Expeditious Retreat. On the other hand, Obscuring Mist without Fog Cloud strongly implies that straight duration upgrades are ignored, and spell series are not guaranteed to fill out. False Life is appropriate because brawler, and Spectral Hand fits with the later Bigby spells and the expectation of lots of touch spells.

Arcane Sight is added because they do have access to Detect Magic, and reading enemy buffs is crucial tactical information while staying similar to Darkvision and See Invisibility. Contagion for more touch options.

Dispel Magic: as a 4th level spell, Duskblades don't gain this until 13th level, making them quite terrible at dispelling. They would get it at 9th if it were 3rd, still a level later than Beguilers and Warmages, and Greater would be delayed further.

Buzzing Bee goes along with the derpy low level Bigby spells. Deep Breath goes along with Feather Fall and Stand. Fist of Stone is a body change, but a minor and very bashy one that works perfectly. Incite/Inhibit are like the SpC's Cause Fear. If Spell Flower exists, it should be available on every touch spell class, because that's the point, and Wings of the Sea is Expeditious Retreat for swimming.

Benign/Baleful Transposition fit well with Regroup and Duskblade talents in general. Daggerspell Stance is meant to be widely available, Bladeweave must be allowed on all full BAB/casters to elicit any chance of use, both are obvious inclusions.

Scorch isn't a bad idea as an upgrade from Burning Hands, so I'll allow it, and agree with Snowball Swarm staying out since it's more Firebally than PHB2 is aiming for. I also like Body of the Sun from Fax's list, so it can stay, and I agree with Belker Claws pushed back to 3rd.

Weapon of Energy appears at a reduced level, it shouldn't break anything and it saves room everywhere. Speaking of energy, the Energy Surge line from PHB2 is garbage, and they should at least be buffed to last the whole round or something.

Hailstones is there for more single target blasting: Icelance would fit with high BAB, but Warmage took that one special and Duskblades are not about value added spells. Hailstones also scales to 20th, which is valuable for a caster with few spells known and little chance to change them. Sound Lance is the other side of reliable, no attack rolls just sonic+fort save.

False Gravity is a thrown bone, not too far from Spider Climb but still only worth it since they don't get Fly. Better than nothing and should make for some fun times.

Corporeal Instability is a touch spell, fort or lose mostly that fits with the other 4ths. Rainbow Blast is another thrown bone, with better damage than Channeled Pyroburst on standard cast and with a line, but at the cost of a different gimmick.

I also agree with kicking up Ray Deflection to 5th. The rest went a little nuts, along the lines I've been seeing: swift action spells means Swift Etherealness. Dimension Hop into Door into Greater Door. Moonbow and Prismatic Ray for single target blasting. Reciprocal Gyre for buff hate since we moved Slashing Dispel down, Dragonsight because arcane vision spells stop until Dragonsight shows up, Night's Caress for just a strong touch spell (stupid [evil] evil tag).From the environment books for Duskblades, Ice Darts, Wave Blessing, Turbidity, Swim, Thalassemia, Parching Touch, and Choking Sands should be usable.

Nothing in the environment books stuck out as good for Hexblade, they could take some stuff from PHB2 though: Stand, Black Karma Curse, Bigby's Helpful/Tripping/Warding Hand, Animalistic Power, Blinding Color Surge, Vertigo, Ray of the Python, Legion of Sentinels, Vertigo Field, Crown of X, Greater Mirror Image, Phantom Battle, Baelful Blink, Call of Stone, Toxic Weapon, and Dancing Blade all more or less fit the Hexblade. Lots of overlap with Beguiler though, one of the main reasons I think I didn't already write it up.

Races of the Dragon has some messed up spells in it by the way. Power Word Pain kills anything CR2 or less no save, including low level players, at 1st level, Power Word Weaken/Maladroit don't undertand how ability damage works and are garbage either way. Sticky Floor is another SR:no Conjuration [Creation] spell that ignores all physics and makes your feet stick to the floor through your shoes such that you can't escape by ditching your glued shoes because non-magical magic. Greater Mighty Wallop is the most powerful weapon buff in the game thanks to size stacking, easily worth using a Maul or greathammer instead of a bladed weapon. Hexblade would gladly make use of the usable low-level power words, as well as Instant Diversion and Unfettered Grasp, and Duskblade could take the Mighty Wallop line if it doesn't bug you.

And yet, still weaker than Glitterdust. Which, aside from Save DC (and even has that equal if you use the houserule everyone should us, Save DCs equal 10+1/2 character level+Stat mod) Glitterdust is just better than Stinking Cloud.
For instant situations, Glitterdust is usually better, but Stinking Cloud puts the control in "battlefield control" by threatening an area for multiple turns in addition to the initial saving throws. Cloud of Bewilderment does the same thing at the same strength a whole level sooner, the only weakness being that unlike Glitterdust it's not easily abused with Sculpt Spell thanks to the Short range.

[ace rooster]

For instant situations, Glitterdust is usually better, but Stinking Cloud puts the control in "battlefield control" by threatening an area for multiple turns in addition to the initial saving throws. Cloud of Bewilderment does the same thing at the same strength a whole level sooner, the only weakness being that unlike Glitterdust it's not easily abused with Sculpt Spell thanks to the Short range.

Seconding this, but adding in the fact that stinking cloud obscures vision, and you can't cast at what you can't see. It can be a useful tactic for limiting casters even if they pass their saves. It also covers a larger area, which can be worth a spell level on it's own.

Also, one of the few potions that is worth having is remove blindness. Coupled with the fact that a blind caster is not harmless, or easy to kill (obscuring mist is still a good 1st level defence, and summoners will barely care. Arcane sight may still function depending on DM, and is good enough to aim attack spells), and have good will saves, stinking cloud is often a far better choice. Not dismissing that Glitterdust is a great spell though, and offers huge utility.

[Troacctid]

On the other hand, Obscuring Mist without Fog Cloud strongly implies that straight duration upgrades are ignored, and spell series are not guaranteed to fill out.
Does anyone really care about fog cloud's duration? You're using it because of the range.

[Fizban]

Does anyone really care about fog cloud's duration? You're using it because of the range.
I've never really considered a tactical use for a benign fog covering the enemy. Without a hostile effect there's nothing keeping them there, and fogging yourself is just as good at stopping line of sight. If you think for a minute there are obvious advantages, but the massive duration increase was what always stuck out to me, followed by not being destroyed by fire.

I'd still leave if off the narrow Duskblade list though, an external/long-duration/non-hostile spell goes against their vibe in multiple ways. It's conspicuous absence still informs the intent there.

[Big Fau]

I've never really considered a tactical use for a benign fog covering the enemy. Without a hostile effect there's nothing keeping them there, and fogging yourself is just as good at stopping line of sight. If you think for a minute there are obvious advantages, but the massive duration increase was what always stuck out to me, followed by not being destroyed by fire.

I'd still leave if off the narrow Duskblade list though, an external/long-duration/non-hostile spell goes against their vibe in multiple ways. It's conspicuous absence still informs the intent there.

Line of Sight only matters if you are trying to attack them. If you just target them with AoEs or single-target spells that don't need attack rolls you're effectively giving yourself 50% concealment from them. You can also use a wand of Guided Shot (SpC) to negate the concealment if you need ranged attacks. Faerie Fire also works (and is low enough level to be Chained efficiently), and the Revealing weapon property and Greater Revealing weapon crystal both negate concealment.

[Âmesang]

If someone's using a spell that appears in another book and the spell compendium, I always use the spell compendium version.
I think the only exception I'd make would be the excavate spell, since the Spell Compendium changes the area from 5'×8' to 5'×5' for… some reason.

[Beheld]

I think the only exception I'd make would be the excavate spell, since the Spell Compendium changes the area from 5'×8' to 5'×5' for… some reason.

Presumably because they want it to fit well on the grid?

[Janthkin]

I've never really considered a tactical use for a benign fog covering the enemy. Without a hostile effect there's nothing keeping them there, and fogging yourself is just as good at stopping line of sight. Sometimes, enemy archers have been known to stand on battlements.

On the Duskblade: I've rarely hit a level and NOT had something on the Duskblade list that was worth snagging. Adding more options is useful if you want to change up the theme of the Duskblade a bit (e.g., a ranged version, or an elemental version, or a more "nature"-oriented version), but I'd do that as a per-character swap, rather than a "broader selection for everyone" fix. As-is, it's a decent off-the-shelf gish. If you wanted to improve it at all, maybe give it Use Magic Device as a class skill (but not in the same party as a Beguiler).

[Flickerdart]

I've never really considered a tactical use for a benign fog covering the enemy.
It's great for causing immediate disarray. Suddenly, a soldier can't see where his comrades are, or his commander. Are they marching forward? Are they falling back? Holding their ground? If the commander has stopped issuing orders, is it because he wants the men to hold, or because he was suddenly murdered by a sneaky enemy rogue?

[Âmesang]

Presumably because they want it to fit well on the grid?
But it was the vertical height that they changed, which would require most Medium creatures to duck down whilst using it. :smalltongue: Interestingly passwall, the spell it was based on, is still 5' wide and 8' high, so I'm intent to just chalk it up as a typo.

(Though I'll admit I'm in error for calling it an "area" when it's really an "effect" — a tunnel 5' wide, 5' high, and 1'-per-level deep.)

[Barbarian Horde]

I personally don't see a problem with it. What you really need to do is ask yourself is "will I become over powered if I use this ability?"

Just compare yourself to your fellow party members. If your stealing the spot light consistently then you might have a problem.