Is focusing on poison a viable strategy?

[Britsky]

I've been wanting to make a melee character who focuses on dealing damage and debuffing using poison.
But is this actually worth doing? or any kind of poisoner in fact, especially when there are so many enemies that might just be immune.

Pathfinder or 3.5.

[Troacctid]

The short answer is no.

The long answer is that poison is prohibitively expensive at low levels, ineffective at high levels (thanks to flat DCs), and mostly useless in general due to like half the Monster Manual being immune to it. It's too unwieldy and unreliable to be the focus of a build.

Edit: Which isn't to say that it's impossible, because there is support for it as a strategy. Just don't get your expectations up, because if you're expecting poison to be relevant as your primary combat strategy, you're going to be disappointed. It will do nothing at all in a significant percentage (quite possibly above 50%) of combats.

[Gensuru]

I'd say it also depends on your GM and your group. If they are fine with it you might be able to work something out.

[Seppo87]

IMHO poison is primarily intended for enemy NPCs.

It seems the designers are afraid that a poisoner character might trivialize battles with mundane means, which is apparently absolutely forbidden in 3.5 and Pathfinder

[FearlessGnome]

What Troacctid said, mostly, though there are ways to get around the price problem at lower levels. Take the feat Hidden Talent to get access to a single first level Power, in this case Psionic Minor Creation. Allows you to create huge quantities of poison, although it only lasts an hour.

This trick is also likely to annoy some DMs, or at least invite realistic consequences. In a game I'm running right now, for example, high level NPC clerics use divinations every day to ask if anyone within the borders of their kingdom has mass produced poison in the last 24 hours, then home in on anyone who has. So while the party haven't tried this yet, if they do they will be visited by a big ol' Green Dragon who has come to inform them that their names are now on a shortlist the diviners go through when searching for poison killers.

They can use it against monsters and when in unclaimed territory of course, but one of my players in particular seems to think that the other party members are the only thing keeping him from assassinating 'annoying' NPCs.

[ace rooster]

Short answer is definitely no, as has been said. You would either require some homebrew to make poisons more effective (like introducing magic poisons), or just fluff a rogue wizard with a spell storing weapon. At high levels you would probably still have to homebrew some sort of greater spell storing weapon.

Magic poisons are really not much of a stretch, and frankly a staple of the fantasy genre that really should be included. A needle with a bestow curse on it for example. When that curse is spent, the party should not be left with a +1 spell storing needle! I like this approach, because it gives you access to a huge system that already exists, and ignores the problems of immunity to poison. The down side is that it means you play just like any other caster, only worse. Still better than simply wielding an axe though.

As a DM I would shoot down the minor creation thing, because it simply doesn't work. Plants are not poisons, and poisonous plants still need to be crafted into poisons before they qualify. If a player wanted to play a poison focused character, I would work something out, but stretching the rules for minor creation is a very bad solution for everyone.

[Âmesang]

It shouldn't be too difficult to homebrew improved and greater spell storing weapons; if a +1 holds up to 3rd-level, then I imagine +3 holds up to 5th and +5 holds up to 7th.

There are magic poisons, actually, but they don't work exactly like the spells they're based off of. Drow of the Underdark had "the calling," "creeping nullscourge," "slowswarming," "slow taint," and "swarming spiderbite." "The calling" is a d6-weaker, ingestible black lotus extract, "creeping nullscourge" damages spell resistance on injury, and "slow taint" …slows you.

A web supplement for the Book of Vile Darkness also introduced epic, "antimagic poisons" that are extraordinarily expensive but ignore all magical and supernatural resistances and immunities to poison, including magical bonuses to saves and magical bonuses to Constitution scores.

This is why I really like the fabricate spell… and after rereading minor creation, I imagine anyone attempting to conjure black lotus extract from nothing would have to succeed on a DC 35† Craft (poisonmaking) or Craft (alchemy) check (at a –4 penalty‡ for the latter) to be successful; otherwise you just dumped lots of black lotus flowers all over your target. Groovy?

Drow of the Underdark also has the toxic and virulent weapon properties to allow poison to be used for two hits and for the secondary damage to occur half as quickly.

† Arms & Equipment Guide, p.37
‡ Book of Vile Darkness, p.45

[mabriss lethe]

Poison use isn't a viable strategy to build a character around. However, it's a really good tactic that can be added to many characters' arsenals with very little work. It's not hard to stockpile a small collection of various poisons and poison analogs (ravages, positoxins, drow magic poisons, drugs, etc) even without going through magical mass production strategies, and at most you'll want to snag the Master of Poisons feat and maybe the poison sprayer for more combat uses of other poison types. Just treat the ability to poison an enemy as icing on the cake: Delicious when you get it, but the cake is still perfectly edible without.

Poison crafting is also a rather nice way to make money provided that you can find a place to sell it in game without too much in-game consequence

[mabriss lethe]

As a DM I would shoot down the minor creation thing, because it simply doesn't work. Plants are not poisons, and poisonous plants still need to be crafted into poisons before they qualify. If a player wanted to play a poison focused character, I would work something out, but stretching the rules for minor creation is a very bad solution for everyone.

Your main objections are already covered by the the spell description. (though as a DM it's your prerogative to nix it regardless)

1. some poisons are explicitly described as being derived from plants and the spell doesn't just make plants, it makes items derived from plant matter.
2. complex items require a craft check as a part of the spell, and a poison is almost definitely a complex item, so while a character still needs the skill to support the tactic the spell still does the heavy lifting.
3.All the spell really does for a poisoner is trade expedience for permanence.

[Inevitability]

Amusingly enough, a very high-level, high-op game might see the return of poison as a viable strategy. If you bind an Aspect of Sertrous, you can suppress poison immunity in a large area, no matter its source.

[LudicSavant]

I've been wanting to make a melee character who focuses on dealing damage and debuffing using poison.
But is this actually worth doing? or any kind of poisoner in fact, especially when there are so many enemies that might just be immune.

Pathfinder or 3.5.

The answer is most definitely yes at low-mid levels. You can mass produce poison for cheap with psionic minor creation (which you can get 1/day for any class on a cheap drow house insignia, which works with psionic stuff thanks to the MiC errata), and get Poison Use (or just poison immunity) through a wide variety of means. Also don't forget to use the Complete Adventurer poison crafting rules, which are more powerful in every way than the original.

At low levels this is an easy way to upgrade your attacks with nasty save effects (which can be tacked onto almost any build). Adding Black Lotus Extract to every attack is no laughing matter at low-mid levels, especially when that's combined with the fact that you're a Crusader or something too. Running into a poison-immune enemy is no big deal, since there's no need for you to be a one trick pony here.

If you want to invest even further in poison, consider taking a look at this: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2714.0

[BioCharge]

Since OP mentioned Pathfinder, I'll put in my two-cents. Pathfinder, unlike 3.5, has poisons that do damage per round, rather than upon exposure and then one minute later. The damage per "hit" is lower, but it has the potential to add up, especially if they keep failing saves. They are often treated like disease where a number of saves cures the character and they no longer have to make a save. In my games, I remove the "cure" stat, and just require a creature to keep making saves until the duration runs out. This makes spells like Neutralize Poison and mundane objects like Antitoxin much more useful, the same applies to the heal skill.

If you don't mind going third party, Dreamscarred Press' Path of War has a discipline called Steel Serpent that has all sorts of bonuses for using poisons during combat. Couple with the "Blight Fight" and "Silver Fang Initiate" feats from Path of War: Expanded, and some judicious use of Mithral Current, you can potentially really rack up ability damage, all in mundane fashion. Pathfinder itself has several decent feats for poisoning, like Powerful Poisoning and Treacherous Toxin.

I'll admit that I haven't played around with poison too much, I'm more for hulking and armored brutes than sneaky types, though the potential is there.

[CharonsHelper]

In 3.5 or Pathfinder the only at all viable way I know of is the poisoner rogue archetype. That's because while contact & injury poisons are WAY too expensive to be viable to use consistently, there are several ingested ones which aren't crazily expensive. The poisoner archetype can change a poison's type, so they can turn ingested poisons into injury/contact ones at level 3. (oil of taggit can be nice/cheap) It also probably works better with archery or thrown weapons so that you can apply multiple doses to get the DC higher.

It's still not a good primary tactic, but the poisoner makes it not prohibitively expensive to use in combat at all.

[Âmesang]

So here's an idea that'll get some books thrown at your head. :smalltongue:

Ever hear of the Squirt Gun Wars (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnPM7I49fj8)? All you have to do is shadow walk/plane shift/gate to Earth (via d20 Modern/Urban Arcana), pick up a "super watergun (http://dmreference.com/MRD/Arcana/Equipment/Weapons/Ranged_Weapons.htm#B_SuperWatergun)" for $20/1 gp, and load it up with contact poison. :smallamused:

"They have squirt guns! Flee!"

[Tvtyrant]

It depends on how far you want to take it. Poison Immunity is not impossible to get around, but it will take high level magic.

The demon-Elder Evil Sertrous removes immunity to poison in a sphere around itself, and if bound makes for a decent high level companion. It does require you to bind an Elder Evil, which is a good way to find yourself at war with everyone on the planet your character is on.

[Starbuck_II]

25g: Sleep-Smoke (Waterdeep, City of Splendors Pg. 152. Unconsciousness/Unconsciousness!)
40g: Tiny Centipede poison (Core; 1 dex woo!)
40g: Stun Gas (A&EG 37, Stuns!)
50g: Roach paste (DoTU 94; Nauseates!)
50g: Darkeye (Sharn, City of Towers; Paralysis!)
75g: Drow poison (Core; Unconsciousness!)
75g: Snowflake Lichen PowderFrostburn (1 Dex/1 Str!)
90g: Oil of Taggit (Core; 0/Unconsciousness and ingested

1. Blasphemix (Injury): it's got a DC of 22 and is only 750gp, but forces divine spellcasters to make a stiff CL check for 10 rounds! (DC 15+spell level) Requires Knowledge (Religion) to make.
2. Elemental Rime (Injury): At 200g, this is cheap to make, and though the save DC is low at 16, forcing a creature to gain Fire Vulnerability can set up some awesome combos with a blaster mage. A duskblade, for example, can hit his opponent with Elemental Rime poison, and then swift action cast a Scorching Ray at the opponent. Also requires Knowledge (the Planes) to make.
3. Goodbye Kiss (Ingested/Injury): The initial effect is fatigued, and the secondary Exhausted is a great effect! Since it's both injury and ingested, it has decent applications in a fight and in roleplay situations.
4. Siren's Breath (Inhaled): gives -5 penalty to saves against enchantment spells. A little pricey at 300g though.
5. Salvo (Injury): Notable for the incredibly low Craft DC of 12. The effect isn't particularly good, but this could be a potent money-making poison to create in drow cities or large metropolises. Thanks telehax!
Crystal scorpion venom: made from normal monstrous scorpions, this is an excellent poison. Contact DC 19, -/Helpless 1d4 hours, entangled 1d4 days. DC 25 Alchemy or DC 21 Craft (Poison) to create, 1,500 gp base cost. Terrific for those who can reduce or ignore the cost with Vermin Trainer.

[The Glyphstone]

So here's an idea that'll get some books thrown at your head. :smalltongue:

Ever hear of the Squirt Gun Wars (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnPM7I49fj8)? All you have to do is shadow walk/plane shift/gate to Earth (via d20 Modern/Urban Arcana), pick up a "super watergun (http://dmreference.com/MRD/Arcana/Equipment/Weapons/Ranged_Weapons.htm#B_SuperWatergun)" for $20/1 gp, and load it up with contact poison. :smallamused:

"They have squirt guns! Flee!"

I'm not sure that actually solves the problem. Delivering your poison is almost never the problem, particular for contact poison that just needs to hit touch AC anyways. It's either the cost to make in volume, or the lack of strong effect. It's funny though.

[LudicSavant]

Pay 620g for an insignia, make all the Black Lotus Extract you want for the rest of your life.

[Venger]

great resources (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.0) on all things poison.

[Afgncaap5]

It's a little bit easier to use in Pathfinder. I forget which book points it out in 3.5 (I wanna say Unearthed Arcana, but it might also be something like the Rules Compendium), but there's a book where a designer reminds us that most poisons get their secondary effect after a straight minute, by which time most encounters have ended, effectively making it only half as useful to players as it is to NPCs. Pathfinder, at least, has a lot more poisons with multiple effects that get measured in rounds instead of minutes, which is why I tend to use Pathfinder poisons in my 3.5 games.

There's a lot of ways to make it work as a great force multiplier, but I think it's better as a supplement to other strategies than as a single thing on its own. (I'd also recommend looking into some other things that aren't poisons per se but can fill the same niche, like the blinding sand from Secrets Of Xen'Drik. Might not be poison, but a 15 foot cone that can blind anyone who fails a (sadly middling-to-lowish) save followed by a penalty on searching, spotting, and ranged attacks for an hour ain't bad. A generous GM might houserule such things as being boostable by things that also boost poison if there's a semi-reasonable reason for it to work in the same manner.

Speaking of generous GMs, a whole world opens up if homebrew's an option. Figure out ways to add rider effects to poisons, for starters (the nauseated or sickened condition would make a lot of sense on some of them, though possibly at greater prices).