What happens if a Sorcerer actually studies their magic?

[Invisifly2]

From what I understand Wizards earn their magic through effort and study. This is why they come out ahead with free metamagic feats, arbitrary spells known (as many as you can cram on the books you can carry), faster spell progression, more skill points (int based casters have high int) etc... and with the right setup can wind up casting a decent number of spontaneous spells per day anyway.

Sorcerers meanwhile just coast on their own latent magical abilities and don't put the effort in to understand it better and wind up worse off.

So, if after a few levels, a sorcerer decides to actually put some serious study into their magic, how would you represent this in game? Would they just become a wizard at that point? Maybe gain access to spellbooks? Or would they just get stuck with a high rank in the flavorful but useful knowledge(Arcana) skill?

Taking levels of wizard after a few levels of sorcerer just doesn't work very well, and a gestalt winds up with a lot of redundancy and is pretty bad compared to other options (but hey a ton of spells per day).

[Aldrakan]

Well in Pathfinder you might say they're retraining as an arcanist.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Hm. Ultimate Magus, maybe, and there's the Arcane Preparation feat. Levels in more academia-oriented PrCs might fit: Mage of the Arcane Order, for example.

[SethoMarkus]

I would say the training is representative of knowledge (arcana) and spellcraft. I would also say that all sorcerers are expected to study their magic at some point. That, to me, is the difference between a Sorcerer1/Rogue3 (for example) and a Sorcerer4. Sorcerers just manipulate magic through inborn ability, where as a wizard manipulates magic through precise formulas. Both need to look into the nature of (their) magic to advance further.

[Âmesang]

That doesn't quite explain why wizards get bonus feats and every Knowledge skill, though. :smalltongue:

I actually incorporated a concept like this into a sorceress' backstory… sort of. She descends from a long line of "arcanists" and was sent to the University of Magical Arts in Greyhawk to study, but due to the spontaneous nature of her spellcasting she dropped out. After all, as she came to realize, she didn't need to prepare her spells ahead of time. She didn't need to record them in spellbooks. Initially she might have been seen as a budding wizard with Spell Mastery, but eventually the truth of her power came out and that truth led her to believe that she was so much better than her peers (she has a Wisdom of 9, mind you), so why waste her time surrounding herself with such inept casters?

…so she leaves the University and hooks up with the local Thieve's Guild and, from them, gains Bluff as a class skill and obtains proficiency with all simple weapons (as opposed to the handful of weapons that wizards are proficient with). It was also a convenient explanation for the "manufacture poisons with Craft (alchemy)" rule found in the Book of Vile Darkness, and helped to cement her vain, conceited, proud, and self-centered attitude.

"A wizard may know magic… I am magic!"

[Necroticplague]

A sorceror does study their magic. That's how they improve it. Their magic comes from a different source than the wizard, but it's still a skill that they have to get better at. If they have more sorceror levels, they've studied there own magic more and practiced it. Just like an athlete must both exercise to improve their body to increase performance, they also have to study and drill proper technique if they want to win. So too must a sorceror both simply sling more spells to improve their reservoir, and refine their casting techniques if they want to get better at casting (or figure out new spells. they don't just pop into your head when you level, it's an abstraction of you trying things until you figure out a new trick). If they spent time boning up on arcane magic theory, take K(arcane) or spellcraft. If they've spent time learning how to formulate their own energies like a wizard, than they take either Arcane Preparation or Scribe Scroll feats.

[SethoMarkus]

Thank you, Necroticplague, you said it much more eloquently than I could.

[Telok]

I've occasionally played around with the "I fart magic" sorcerer idea. Still Spell, a metamagic reducer, and Eschew Materials. Fart and a spell goes off. Add Silent Spell for 'silent but deadly'.

But as an answer to the question, probably a PrC and the feat to prepare some spells.

[Jay R]

If the player wants his character to approach magic like a wizard, and get the perks of a wizard, then the rules can handle that just fine. He simply starts taking levels of wizard.

This is like asking, "What if the Rogue studies his weapon as constantly as a Fighter because he wants the faster BAB progression?" No problem. That's represented in the rules as taking a level of Fighter.

If you want options and advancement not allowed to your class, you know how to get them.

[If a player really wants to get those advantages while staying a sorcerer, I'd say, "OK, you want sorcerer levels that give advantages they normally don't give. That's cool. Variant levels are allowed in the system. What power or ability do you want to give up to gain these other abilities?" If he isn't willing to give up anything, then he can't get something extra. He can't just get extra power for free.]

[Calthropstu]

A sorcerer should never study their magic too closely. When they suddenly find their power comes from a greater demon of khorne bent on invading 3.5 and pathfinder, suicide is the only possible outcome.

[Sayt]

A sorcerer should never study their magic too closely. When they suddenly find their power comes from a greater demon of khorne bent on invading 3.5 and pathfinder, suicide is the only possible outcome.

Except Khorne doesn't ever, ever grant casting. His demons don't do magic, they don't grant magic. The closest they grant to magive is Ex Spell Resistance. And why are you punising a sorcerer for investigating his background and engaging with the setting?

[Serafina]

Okay, what sort of study are we talking about?
If the Sorcerer studies magic in general - that's ranks in Spellcraft (and possibly Knowledge (Arcane) or (Religion), or maybe Use Magic Device).
If the Sorcerer studies their own magic specifically? Well, the magic of a Sorcerer is different in one way than that of a Wizard - it's spontaneous. You don't have to worry about the Sorcerer becoming a Wizard or anything like that - because they specifically study "arcane magic that is inherent to someone and used spontaneously by them", as opposed to "carefully memorized spells".

You represent the former by just having the character spend their skill ranks right.
You can represent the latter with something similar - or you just use it as a roleplaying device, and there's no need to have it impact a characters sheet at all.
If you want it to impact the sheet - well, there's several ways to do that. In 3.5 you can go into a prestige class that fits with their knowledge-theme. In Pathfinder, you can just straight-up build an Arcanist, go with the Sage-Bloodline, have them unlock a second bloodline via Eldritch Heritage or use the Seeker-Archetype.

[khadgar567]

personal opinion I give him few metamagic feats representing her study to improve her opinions and maybe more spell slots cuz she hones what she does in methodical way

[Fri]

Except Khorne doesn't ever, ever grant casting. His demons don't do magic, they don't grant magic. The closest they grant to magive is Ex Spell Resistance. And why are you punising a sorcerer for investigating his background and engaging with the setting?

Because he's making a tongue-in-cheek joke.

[squiggit]

Honestly I'd just call it taking more levels in sorcerer, maybe grabbing some thematic feats like a lot of metamagic and scribe scroll and throwing skill points into spellcraft and/or know(arcane) if you really want to emphasize it, but a sorcerer putting a lot of effort into studying his or her sorcerous powers honestly just sounds like... a better sorcerer.

A sorcerer who 'just coasts' on what they have and never tries to improve sounds like a sorcerer who stays at level 1 to me.

[Calthropstu]

Except Khorne doesn't ever, ever grant casting. His demons don't do magic, they don't grant magic. The closest they grant to magive is Ex Spell Resistance. And why are you punising a sorcerer for investigating his background and engaging with the setting?

Alas, that is the problem of trying to invade another system. Khorne abhors magic, but when his disciples try to invade, they get turned into fuel for magical energy which sorcerers then use. Khorne is furious, but eh... when you start invading other game systems, **** happens.


Edit @Fri: yes, that is exactly what I am doing.

[Calthropstu]

Honestly I'd just call it taking more levels in sorcerer, maybe grabbing some thematic feats like a lot of metamagic and scribe scroll and throwing skill points into spellcraft and/or know(arcane) if you really want to emphasize it, but a sorcerer putting a lot of effort into studying his or her sorcerous powers honestly just sounds like... a better sorcerer.

A sorcerer who 'just coasts' on what they have and never tries to improve sounds like a sorcerer who stays at level 1 to me.

Actually, it sounds like someone who believes "I have power because I am AWESOME" or because "I have power because the universe wills it to be" or something along those lines. I see nothing wrong with a sorcerer not wanting to know or caring where their power comes from. My earlier joke aside, sometimes it is best if they don't. "I gained power because my great grandfather dabbled in demonology and consorted with a succubus" is something most don't want to know.

Even if the source is celestial or draconic, it is still something best left unpursued in most cases. My summoner sorcerer that I have posted about DOES know the source of his bloodline powers, and his ultimate goal is find the Draconal (his heritage is that of an agothian, he is an aasimar, and his fire powers come from the fact that the draconal was red) responsible for the "corruption" in his blood, and bring "justice down upon him." To that end he summons more and more powerful celestials, until the point where he has enough power to bring his celestial progenitor to him. By force.

But I digress. Most of the time, the source of a sorcerer's powers is best left unexamined because of the sheer impact it could have on the campaign.

Though it could be fun to find out the demon you are trying to stop from entering this world was in fact involved in granting your powers in the first place.

[PaucaTerrorem]

Necroticplague has the right idea but can I try a simple analogy?

There are natural athletes and those that have to work for their skill. Both have to work to improve upon what they have, but the naturals tend to have a smaller toolbox than those that have to study for it. Let's say Brett Favre vs. Peyton Manning for those that know football.

[khadgar567]

Necroticplague has the right idea but can I try a simple analogy?

There are natural athletes and those that have to work for their skill. Both have to work to improve upon what they have, but the naturals tend to have a smaller toolbox than those that have to study for it. Let's say Brett Favre vs. Peyton Manning for those that know football.
for those who don't know football example pls

[Jormengand]

So, if after a few levels, a sorcerer decides to actually put some serious study into their magic, how would you represent this in game?

Well, a sorcerer is allowed to learn nonsorcerer spells which they gain an understanding of through study, so that's a good use of their time if they want a few extra spells.

[digiman619]

Well in Pathfinder you might say they're retraining as an arcanist.

Seconded. Judging on what it sounds like you want, the arcanist class (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/arcanist) will provide you with the mix of wizard and sorcerer you desire.

[quzar]

My table has often used the idea of devoting downtime to study/training being a method to gain skill points or feats. By this reasoning, the 'study' that they may be doing may be in order to apply metamagic into their spellcasting or similar. Have them spend X hours of in-game time dedicated to the study to learn a pre-determined feat. I'd done this as 500 hours for self-study, with something like one-month in a training camp with tutors/masters as an alternative. In most cases the former ends up never being accomplished, but the player feels strongly like they're getting something for it and they have to be mindful of it and incorporate it into their RP. The latter option I've used typically for story/plot things, and in a narrow setting (for instance you join up with a dwarven militia who are understaffed, you undergo rigorous training and choose a fighter bonus feat to gain at the end of it).

[GreyBlack]

From what I understand Wizards earn their magic through effort and study. This is why they come out ahead with free metamagic feats, arbitrary spells known (as many as you can cram on the books you can carry), faster spell progression, more skill points (int based casters have high int) etc... and with the right setup can wind up casting a decent number of spontaneous spells per day anyway.

Sorcerers meanwhile just coast on their own latent magical abilities and don't put the effort in to understand it better and wind up worse off.

So, if after a few levels, a sorcerer decides to actually put some serious study into their magic, how would you represent this in game? Would they just become a wizard at that point? Maybe gain access to spellbooks? Or would they just get stuck with a high rank in the flavorful but useful knowledge(Arcana) skill?

Taking levels of wizard after a few levels of sorcerer just doesn't work very well, and a gestalt winds up with a lot of redundancy and is pretty bad compared to other options (but hey a ton of spells per day).

Depends on the model you use! How is magic modeled in your campaign setting? As such, I'll relate how magic is modeled in my campaign.

For my personal setting, how you produce magic is tied to how you create a conduit for magic. Wizards create that conduit by studying the ways of the universe in intense study, documenting their experiments, and using their intellect. By comparison, sorcerers create that conduit to the world by imposing their force of will upon the world, using that to create the necessary conduit to the world.

So, what would happen if a sorcerer studied their powers? Depends. If they continue to create that conduit for magic by their raw force of will, then they remain sorcerers with extra skill points in spellcraft and knowledge (arcana). By comparison, if they stop using their force of will to forge that conduit and, instead, create that conduit through their intellect and knowledge of their powers, they would become a wizard or arcanist.

[Jay R]

personal opinion I give him few metamagic feats representing her study to improve her opinions and maybe more spell slots cuz she hones what she does in methodical way

This is exactly what I'd be trying to avoid. A player should not be able to use mere talk and fluff to get more mechanical powers for his character than the rules allow.

It should be assumed that every PC is using their spare time to develop their current skills and abilities, and can get more at the standard rate, according to the rules.


So, what would happen if a sorcerer studied their powers? Depends. If they continue to create that conduit for magic by their raw force of will, then they remain sorcerers with extra skill points in spellcraft and knowledge (arcana). By comparison, if they stop using their force of will to forge that conduit and, instead, create that conduit through their intellect and knowledge of their powers, they would become a wizard or arcanist.

Exactly. That extra study is modeled within the rules, either by assigning skill points to spellcraft and knowledge (arcana), or by taking levels of wizard.

That way, the cost of these skill points is fewer points in other skills, or the cost of developing that level is the level of sorcerer that he could have taken instead.

Any PC can develop new skills, abilities, and powers - according to the advancement rules.

[Grytorm]

I'd use it as in setting justification for choosing which spells he knows. So by studying magic a Sorcerer could get a better control over what he could do.

[Psyren]

Well in Pathfinder you might say they're retraining as an arcanist.

+1 to this. Not that Sorcerers can't study their magic too, I just think the method of doing so is very different than it is for Wizards. Sorcerers who study like wizards become Arcanists, or at the very least Wizards with Eldritch Heritage.

[Afgncaap5]

I'd use feats and skills to represent a sorcerer's attempts to study things, personally. If a saxophone player is naturally good at playing the saxophone but never studies or practices, they're not gonna get better after a while. If a saxophone player decides to take some time to say "Okay, so the air shifts *this* way when I blow into it like *that*, but what happens if I blow this other way and try a reed that's been carved differently..." then you can start to see the development of some talents. Before they started adding keys to alto saxophones expressly to do so, the only way to hit a "Triple F" note was to learn more about how different mouth positions could allow the notes to be different for different keys; a practicing sorcerer is likely going to be similar, probably picking up metamagic feats instead of just supernatural powers or generic competency feats.


for those who don't know football example pls

Imagine the difference between Mike and Sully in Monsters University. Mike puts in tireless hours and studies endlessly, Sully was born with natural talent and an inherent "scariness" that gives him a leg up. Mike is the wizard, Sully the sorcerer, and both of their outlooks on life have some validity to how they try scaring people.

[khadgar567]

Imagine the difference between Mike and Sully in Monsters University. Mike puts in tireless hours and studies endlessly, Sully was born with natural talent and an inherent "scariness" that gives him a leg up. Mike is the wizard, Sully the sorcerer, and both of their outlooks on life have some validity to how they try scaring people.
thanks mate but you dont need kingdom hearts reference

[SirNMN]

thanks mate but you dont need kingdom hearts reference
What kingdom hearts reference did he make?

[PaucaTerrorem]

for those who don't know football example pls

Favre is a pure natural athlete who was born to be a quarterback with a laser guided rocket for an arm.
Manning is a very intelligent player who studied his opponents and picked them apart.

Kind of like how sorcerers tend to be better blasters and wizards are better at buffing/debuffing.

[GreyBlack]

Necroticplague has the right idea but can I try a simple analogy?

There are natural athletes and those that have to work for their skill. Both have to work to improve upon what they have, but the naturals tend to have a smaller toolbox than those that have to study for it. Let's say Brett Favre vs. Peyton Manning for those that know football.

And then there's Eli, who's the bard. XD

[khadgar567]

What kingdom hearts reference did he make?
the whole monster univercity thing I just use kingdom hearts as unified exemple for disney universe

[bahamut920]

If you're talking about a sorcerer who studies magic academically in the same manner as a wizard, then I'm going to agree with the people saying "arcanist retrain" or "ultimate magus". Those classes model the result of a sorcerer blending his natural arcane talent with academic study.

I picture a sorcerer developing his powers as being sort of like how anime martial artists develop theirs; by pushing their limits. A sorcerer goes out and shoots trees with scorching ray or puts on a play for all his buddies with major image; stuff like that. Through that testing of their limits and practice of their abilities, the sorcerer gains a deeper understanding of magic in general.

Another analogy would be that a wizard is a musician who learned to play at Julliard, while the sorcerer is a musician born with perfect pitch and the ability to "play by ear". Both had to learn how to actually play their instrument(s) of choice, but the wizard took the methodical route with lots of book learning, whereas the sorcerer just picked up a guitar and plunked around until he started making music. He might have listened to music on the radio and imitated the songs for his first bits of music, but he's still putting in the effort and learning things about music. They're just not the same things as the wizard, or learned in the same way.

[Andreaz]

Sorcerers meanwhile just coast on their own latent magical abilities and don't put the effort in to understand it better and wind up worse off.

You might want to rethink this stance. Their latent magical talent doesn't necessarily come without effort, or at least not always.
My view of it has always been that they naturally develop magic, but making any real use of it requires intensive training. It just isn't formal arcane training like a wiz's.

[Grim Reader]

The wizard is the engineer, the sorcerer the artist. A Sorcerer powers come naturally and to delve deeper into the nature of them, he does no more study than a painter learns differential equations to expand his art.

If a Sorcerer does want to investigate his powers in a methodical manner and studies the laws of the arcane, he has to go back to basics, learn the fundamentals of what was always instinct before. I.e. take a level of Wizard. From there on, its Ultimate magus.

That's my take on it anyway.

[Afgncaap5]

If a Sorcerer does want to investigate his powers in a methodical manner and studies the laws of the arcane, he has to go back to basics, learn the fundamentals of what was always instinct before. I.e. take a level of Wizard. From there on, its Ultimate magus.

That's my take on it anyway.

I could see a person going about it that way for a character, though a part of me dislikes the notion that academic study of an intrinsic practice necessarily requires a shift to the mechanics of how it works. Ultimate Magus feels right only if the sorcerer is also practicing a different kind of magic that's unrelated to the weird built-in magic that the sorcerer automatically has (or at least a different way of making it work, sort of like turning the same turbine but choosing whether to turn it with water power or geothermal power.)

Granted, that's just for me. It's a good solution, even if it's one I'd steer clear of.


the whole monster univercity thing I just use kingdom hearts as unified exemple for disney universe

Never played Kingdom Hearts myself. Do they have Pixar elements included, then? I'd never heard of them, but I could see it since there's a lot of interplay between Disney and Pixar.

[Secret Wizard]

My take on this: the Sorcerer gets ranks in Spellcraft. These are useful in several ways, besides the usual uses of the skill, as they allow the Sorcerer to access to feats that only a seasoned student of magic could do, such as Spell Perfection.

[GreyBlack]

thanks mate but you dont need kingdom hearts reference

Wait. Since when was Monsters Inc. Or University included in the Kingdom Hearts worlds? Did I miss this?

[khadgar567]

Wait. Since when was Monsters Inc. Or University included in the Kingdom Hearts worlds? Did I miss this?
Gonna be inculuded on newest game

[Psyren]

In addition to the "retrain as Arcanist" or "Ultimate Magus" ideas, Pathfinder has a third option for being a sorc/wiz hybrid - variant multiclassing. You could have a Sorcerer with arcane school powers and wizard discoveries that way, or a wizard with a sorcerous bloodline, either of which could be used to represent a hybrid without the deleterious effects of splitting your levels between two base casting classes.