Priority order for Paladin options

[Aegis013]

I may get to play 5e for the first time soon. I've decided to play a Paladin. Feats and Vhuman have been allowed, and we're using Standard Array for stats.

Right now I'm leaning towards Vhuman with Sentinel feat and a halberd. At level 2, I'll get Tunnel Fighting (approved, other UA on a case-by-case basis).
So I have 16 Str, 15 Cha, 13 Con. Other stats are less relevant.
I was thinking at level 4 I'd grab Polearm Master.

I figured this would let me lock down any enemies in my threatened zone so that my allies can move around and do whatever they need. A classic battle-field control tank type character.

However, I've been advised that the optimal way to go would be Vhuman with Polearm Master, max out Str, then grab Sentinel at 12. Doesn't this mean I can only lock down a single enemy until 12th level?

Fellow playgrounders, please share with me your wisdom. :smallbiggrin:

[Rusvul]

Well... Sentinel is important for locking things down, but Polearm Master is a significant increase to your damage. I would suggest PAM as your Vhuman feat, then take Sentinel at 4- either way works, though. After that, you should be fine with spending your ASIs, well, increasing your ability scores. Maxxing Str before your build comes online is probably not a good idea.

On ability scores: Your 15 CHA is not helping you at all. I would recommend putting the second Vhuman +1 into Con, for 16 Str, 14 Cha, and 14 Con.

[uraniumrooster]

PAM plus Tunnel Fighter is going to be amazing. You probably won't get much use from the Bonus Action attack, since you'll need to use the BA to enter your defensive stance, but you will get tons of opportunity attacks. Any time an enemy enters your reach or moves 5' within your reach, you get an opportunity attack. Since you'll probably be wielding a glaive or halberd with reach, that means an enemy has to provoke twice just to get into standard melee range with you.

I would actually advise against Sentinel for this build. Since you can get opportunity attacks without using your reaction, and enemy movement while within your reach provokes opportunity attacks, you actually benefit from allowing them to move. If you had Sentinel then your opportunity attacks would reduce your target's speed to 0, and you'd be losing out on more potential attacks. I might recommend Mobile instead, so you can attack and withdraw on your turn without provoking, setting yourself up so enemies have to approach you again.

If you're planning on sticking with Paladin up to at least level 7, I'd also recommend going Oath of Vengeance for the ability to move as part of your reaction when you make an opportunity attack. You'll be a master of killing enemies before they ever get a chance to touch you.

[Aegis013]

Well... Sentinel is important for locking things down, but Polearm Master is a significant increase to your damage. I would suggest PAM as your Vhuman feat, then take Sentinel at 4- either way works, though. After that, you should be fine with spending your ASIs, well, increasing your ability scores. Maxxing Str before your build comes online is probably not a good idea.

On ability scores: Your 15 CHA is not helping you at all. I would recommend putting the second Vhuman +1 into Con, for 16 Str, 14 Cha, and 14 Con.

That makes a lot of sense on ability scores, I'll be swapping that Vhuman bonus into Con.


PAM plus Tunnel Fighter is going to be amazing. You probably won't get much use from the Bonus Action attack, since you'll need to use the BA to enter your defensive stance, but you will get tons of opportunity attacks. Any time an enemy enters your reach or moves 5' within your reach, you get an opportunity attack. Since you'll probably be wielding a glaive or halberd with reach, that means an enemy has to provoke twice just to get into standard melee range with you.

I would actually advise against Sentinel for this build. Since you can get opportunity attacks without using your reaction, and enemy movement while within your reach provokes opportunity attacks, you actually benefit from allowing them to move. If you had Sentinel then your opportunity attacks would reduce your target's speed to 0, and you'd be losing out on more potential attacks. I might recommend Mobile instead, so you can attack and withdraw on your turn without provoking, setting yourself up so enemies have to approach you again.

If you're planning on sticking with Paladin up to at least level 7, I'd also recommend going Oath of Vengeance for the ability to move as part of your reaction when you make an opportunity attack. You'll be a master of killing enemies before they ever get a chance to touch you.

Hmm, am I not understanding Sentinel or is my 3.5 knowledge causing me to make incorrect assumptions?

Here's how I thought Tunnel Fighter and Sentinel would work together: I use a bonus action to go into defensive stance. If any enemy tries to move, even to Disengage, I get an OA that doesn't use my reaction (Tunnel Fighter) and if I land my hit (or shove them if I so choose), I can reduce their speed to 0 via Sentinel, meaning if they simply can't move, on top of possibly being prone if I thought that was better than just dealing damage.

Polearm Master would make it so anything entering my threatened area or passing through would let me attack it for every square they go through, but it wouldn't stop anything from just eating all the hits and nuking my squishy caster friend in the back line unless I dealt enough to kill it. Or I guess I could shove it as the OA? That might stop it from getting to the back line.

[RSP]

Unfortunately, RAW, you cannot shove as an opportunity attack. PHB states you can swap out an attack as part of the Attack action on your turn to shove or grapple. No rule I'm aware of allows you to swap an opportunity attack for a shove or grapple.

Designers have stated this was the intent, too, I believe.

[uraniumrooster]

That makes a lot of sense on ability scores, I'll be swapping that Vhuman bonus into Con.



Hmm, am I not understanding Sentinel or is my 3.5 knowledge causing me to make incorrect assumptions?

Here's how I thought Tunnel Fighter and Sentinel would work together: I use a bonus action to go into defensive stance. If any enemy tries to move, even to Disengage, I get an OA that doesn't use my reaction (Tunnel Fighter) and if I land my hit (or shove them if I so choose), I can reduce their speed to 0 via Sentinel, meaning if they simply can't move, on top of possibly being prone if I thought that was better than just dealing damage.

Polearm Master would make it so anything entering my threatened area or passing through would let me attack it for every square they go through, but it wouldn't stop anything from just eating all the hits and nuking my squishy caster friend in the back line unless I dealt enough to kill it. Or I guess I could shove it as the OA? That might stop it from getting to the back line.

That's mostly right, and each of the options gives you extra options for making Opportunity Attacks. Tunnel Fighter (after using your BA to enter defensive stance) allows you to make OAs without using your reaction, and also causes enemies to provoke if they move more than 5' inside your range. PAM allows you to make an OA whenever an enemy enters your reach as long as you're using an approved weapon. Sentinel allows you to make OAs even when enemies disengage, or whenever an enemy attacks an ally of yours within 5', but it also reduces an enemy's speed to 0 whenever you hit them.

So, in the scenario of a Baddie trying to run through your reach to attack a squishy party-mate...

You're right that Sentinel would lock enemies down by reducing their speed to 0. That's definitely useful, but you lose out on the potential for additional attacks from Tunnel Fighter if you had allowed them to keep moving. Since you threaten 10' in all directions, an enemy trying to run past you could potentially provoke 5 times if they travel in a straight line through your reach, as early as level 2 (assuming PAM from Vhuman, and Tunnel Fighter at level 2). That could easily allow you to simply kill a lot of enemies, especially that early on. Remember, Paladins in 5e max out at 2 attacks per turn, maybe 3 if they have a way to attack as a Bonus Action, and non-Tunnel Fighters only get one opportunity attack every round, so I'd try to milk PAM + Tunnel Fighter for all the free attacks you can get.

I guess it's a matter of preference, and neither is a bad option. I just tend to favor the ability to get even more free attacks.

[MaxBoguely]

That makes a lot of sense on ability scores, I'll be swapping that Vhuman bonus into Con.



Hmm, am I not understanding Sentinel or is my 3.5 knowledge causing me to make incorrect assumptions?

Here's how I thought Tunnel Fighter and Sentinel would work together: I use a bonus action to go into defensive stance. If any enemy tries to move, even to Disengage, I get an OA that doesn't use my reaction (Tunnel Fighter) and if I land my hit (or shove them if I so choose), I can reduce their speed to 0 via Sentinel, meaning if they simply can't move, on top of possibly being prone if I thought that was better than just dealing damage.

Polearm Master would make it so anything entering my threatened area or passing through would let me attack it for every square they go through, but it wouldn't stop anything from just eating all the hits and nuking my squishy caster friend in the back line unless I dealt enough to kill it. Or I guess I could shove it as the OA? That might stop it from getting to the back line.

Polearm Master just gives you the opportunity attack when they first enter your reach, not one for each square they move through. With all three features you'd effectively get two opportunity attacks for an enemy trying to dash past you - one when it enters your reach via PAM, and one via normal rules when it leaves your reach. You'd get a third attack, which by RAW is not an "opportunity attack," and DOES use up your reaction. So you could get 3 attacks on someone bum-rushing past you, but only two that would stop their movement. If two or more enemies try to bum-rush you, you can make your two opportunity attacks on all of them, but only get the "tunnel fighter attack" (for lack of a better descriptor) on the one, because it uses your reaction and you only get one reaction per round.

I advise Sentinel at level 1 and PAM at level 4. People saying that PAM ups your damage are saying so because it gives you a d4 bonus action attack, and that's true. But the reality of Sentinel is that it all but guarantees you will get an opportunity attack on every turn (because enemies are hitting your friends, and if they're not, then you're winning as a tank!), and that reaction d10 attack is worth more than the bonus action d4 attack, especially if you'll be a Tunnel Fighter and you can potentially get multiple opportunity attacks per round. The reducing speed to 0 is also important for battlefield control.

Upping your strength earlier will make you more reliably land your movement-crippling opportunity attacks, which is good, but not having PAM would mean you can't stop things before they reach you, which is what really makes you a strong controller, especially with Tunnel Fighter. Both approaches are valid, but having played the PAM/Sentinel style, my opinion is that getting both feats online is the more important thing.

[uraniumrooster]

... but only get the "tunnel fighter attack" (for lack of a better descriptor) on the one, because it uses your reaction and you only get one reaction per round.

Ah, this is true. I had mis-remembered Tunnel Fighter and though its extra attack triggered by an enemy's movement also counted as an opportunity attack without requiring a reaction. My mistake.


People saying that PAM ups your damage are saying so because it gives you a d4 bonus action attack, and that's true.

My PAM recommendation was for the ability to get a free opportunity attack whenever a target enters your reach, since Tunnel Fighter's defensive stance already uses up your bonus action. With a 10' reach weapon, that seems like a more consistent source of OAs than Sentinel.


Upping your strength earlier will make you more reliably land your movement-crippling opportunity attacks, which is good, but not having PAM would mean you can't stop things before they reach you, which is what really makes you a strong controller, especially with Tunnel Fighter. Both approaches are valid, but having played the PAM/Sentinel style, my opinion is that getting both feats online is the more important thing.

Now that I realize my mistake regarding the Tunnel Fighter non-opportunity attack, this makes sense. I still think I'd pick PAM at 1, then Sentinel at 4, but that's more down to play style preference.

I also think a PAM+Mobile Tunnel Fighting Vengeance Paladin would be a solid build.

[MaxBoguely]

My PAM recommendation was for the ability to get a free opportunity attack whenever a target enters your reach, since Tunnel Fighter's defensive stance already uses up your bonus action. With a 10' reach weapon, that seems like a more consistent source of OAs than Sentinel.

Maybe it varies by table more than I imagine, but my experience has been that you only get the "extra" chance for an opportunity attack once per enemy from PAM - usually things that enter your reach stay there until they die or some other similar circumstance occurs in which you are no longer interested in attacking them. With Sentinel, you usually won't "lose" that opportunity attack chance (because even though you don't get one when the enemy enters your reach, you instead get one when he inevitably attacks your friend after moving in). On top of that, you continue to get opportunity attacks on that same creature as long as he stays in your reach and as long as he keeps attacking your friends. I have gotten exponentially more opportunity attacks off the Sentinel trigger than I have off the PAM trigger.

Also, to your last sentence, I'm not sure that the reach weapon is going to increase your frequency of opportunity attacks triggered by PAM without Sentinel. Without Sentinel, you don't stop enemies in their tracks, and while they take your opportunity attack for entering your reach, they still make it into melee range with you and presumably don't leave unless they don't plan on re-entering your reach.

[Specter]

At level 4 you will grab +1 CHA and +1 CON. To be immune to most effects, CON gives you HP and +1 save (and concentration). +1 CHA will apply to all saves and to skills AND to spells. +1 to those major stats will change your game.

Another feat can wait.

[Aegis013]

OK. So I'm thinking I'll stick with Sentinel as my Vhuman feat. I like the idea of keeping the enemies away from the squishy guys in the back more than I like obliterating them with damage.

I think my confusion on the Shove as an OA option came from the option to use a Shove for the reaction attack option from Sentinel Tunnel Fighter. Which isn't an OA.


At level 4 you will grab +1 CHA and +1 CON. To be immune to most effects, CON gives you HP and +1 save (and concentration). +1 CHA will apply to all saves and to skills and spells. +1 to those major stats will change your game.

Another feat can wait.

If I take Rusvul's advice and swap to Str 16, Con 14, Cha 14, that won't be the case. Which, since it seem the priority according to most people is to go ahead and shoot for 20 Str, I see his advise as sound.

I'll probably go Sentinel at 1, PAM at 4, +2 Str at 8 and 12.
If I get to level 16 I'll either consider +2 Cha or another feat. Possibly Resilient Con, but by that time, I'll have more an idea where I want to go hopefully.

[bid]

If I take Rusvul's advice and swap to Str 16, Con 14, Cha 14, that won't be the case. Which, since it seem the priority according to most people is to go ahead and shoot for 20 Str, I see his advise as sound.
If you plan on tank, getting Str20 is not necessary. I would aim for Str18 Cha18. Your aura is that important to others.

You haven't said which oath you will take, but ancient is best for tanking.

[MaxBoguely]

If you plan on tank, getting Str20 is not necessary. I would aim for Str18 Cha18. Your aura is that important to others.

You haven't said which oath you will take, but ancient is best for tanking.

Just curious...but why is 20 str necessary?


I think my confusion on the Shove as an OA option came from the option to use a Shove for the reaction attack option from Sentinel. Which isn't an OA.

Err, I don't think this is still quite correct. Sentinel DOES trigger opportunity attacks; it's Tunnel Fighter that doesn't. I don't think you get the opportunity to shove for either opportunity attacks or the reaction attack you get from Tunnel Fighter, at least not according to RAW.

[Rusvul]

At level 4 you will grab +1 CHA and +1 CON. To be immune to most effects, CON gives you HP and +1 save (and concentration). +1 CHA will apply to all saves and to skills AND to spells. +1 to those major stats will change your game.

Another feat can wait.

I disagree with this. Firstly, there's no sense in going 15/13 from the start- Going 14/14 is slightly better at the start (an additional +1 Con) and exactly the same whenever you choose to up Cha. Secondly, a feat like Sentinel or PAM is usually a more significant boost to combat capabilities than +2 to Cha- as useful as Cha is for Paladins. Besides, you don't want to wait too long for your build to come online- playing a half-built character can be a little frustrating.

[bid]

Just curious...but why is 20 str necessary?
Why indeed.

[Aegis013]

If you plan on tank, getting Str20 is not necessary. I would aim for Str18 Cha18. Your aura is that important to others.

You haven't said which oath you will take, but ancient is best for tanking.

Ancients is my leaning, but I'll see how the game goes, my build doesn't necessarily have to be perfect. I'll consider raising Cha to 18 over Str to 20 more seriously if we end up with more than two players (what it's looking like now, but I know the other guy is going full arcane caster, likely warlock). The aura's effect feels less dramatic when it's affecting fewer people.



Just curious...but why is 20 str necessary?



Err, I don't think this is still quite correct. Sentinel DOES trigger opportunity attacks; it's Tunnel Fighter that doesn't. I don't think you get the opportunity to shove for either opportunity attacks or the reaction attack you get from Tunnel Fighter, at least not according to RAW.

Sorry, I meant the reaction attack on Tunnel Fighter. I got the idea from T.G. Oskar's Paladin Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?373592-A-Guide-to-the-D-amp-D-5th-Edition-Paladin-through-the-eyes-of-a-3-5-Player). Under the lockdown strategy synopsis it says:

"Its signature fighting style, Tunnel Fighter, sets you on a defensive stance where you can make opportunity attacks without using reactions; ...spending your reaction to knock the target prone via Shove is a viable strategy."

I figured, Shove is a melee attack, albeit a special one (Basic Rules pg. 74) which replaces a regular attack when you use the attack action. If I get an attack action from another source, e.g. Tunnel Fighter, it's probably eligible to be a shove. I'll ask my DM, since the Tunnel Fighter reaction attack would probably be considered to be distinct from the attack action, but I could see it going either way.


Why indeed.

I assumed for accuracy. If I whiff an attack that's a pretty substantial loss in damage, plus potentially putting my squishy buddy at risk.

[Klorox]

Why indeed.

LOL.

Priceless.

[djreynolds]

Sentinel and PAM are both great and even better in combination with each other.

Who is next to you getting beat up that you need sentinel?

PAM/Sentinel is nice because as an enemy approaches you get an AoO with PAM and can shut down his movement with sentinel.

PAM will give you a bonus attack also.

If you already have sentinel than grab PAM at 4th.

Who else is in your party is also important? Is there a cleric casting bless, or are you? What concentration spell do wish to have running?

Are you holding a smite spell with concentration? Is shield of faith up?

Ancient is good, but I like devotions sacred weapon as it recharges on a short rest, which a warlock needs to use also.

But if you already have sentinel than PAM is the next choice.

If you had taken PAM at 1, I would recommend GWM and devotion or OoV. And just churn out damage.

The other nice thing is sentinel and PAM are reaction attacks on "their" turn so you should be able to add in a smite there also.

[Specter]

If I take Rusvul's advice and swap to Str 16, Con 14, Cha 14, that won't be the case. Which, since it seem the priority according to most people is to go ahead and shoot for 20 Str, I see his advise as sound.

I'll probably go Sentinel at 1, PAM at 4, +2 Str at 8 and 12.
If I get to level 16 I'll either consider +2 Cha or another feat. Possibly Resilient Con, but by that time, I'll have more an idea where I want to go hopefully.

The way I see it, Charisna is just as important, if not more, than Strenght. It just fuels so much good stuff.

[Citan]

I may get to play 5e for the first time soon. I've decided to play a Paladin. Feats and Vhuman have been allowed, and we're using Standard Array for stats.

Right now I'm leaning towards Vhuman with Sentinel feat and a halberd. At level 2, I'll get Tunnel Fighting (approved, other UA on a case-by-case basis).
So I have 16 Str, 15 Cha, 13 Con. Other stats are less relevant.
I was thinking at level 4 I'd grab Polearm Master.

I figured this would let me lock down any enemies in my threatened zone so that my allies can move around and do whatever they need. A classic battle-field control tank type character.

However, I've been advised that the optimal way to go would be Vhuman with Polearm Master, max out Str, then grab Sentinel at 12. Doesn't this mean I can only lock down a single enemy until 12th level?

Fellow playgrounders, please share with me your wisdom. :smallbiggrin:
Ok, so for a build where you want to make as many attacks as you want, I was gonna suggest putting your 16 in CHA instead and going Oath of Devotion (since you actually get even better chance to hit on all attacks you make) rather than the common Oath of Vengeance but...


If you're planning on sticking with Paladin up to at least level 7, I'd also recommend going Oath of Vengeance for the ability to move as part of your reaction when you make an opportunity attack. You'll be a master of killing enemies before they ever get a chance to touch you.
This is a very good catch. Although, it is possible that your DM rule that it doesn't work at all, or it works once because you would use your reaction to make a normal opportunity attack: after all, the class feature says "you can move... as part of the reaction". So a ruling such as "you didn't take a reaction to make an opportunity atack (CQS feature) so you can't use the Paladin feature" doesn't seem far-stretched to me. And he will probably go with that. Because, otherwise, you could make a potentially huge number of attacks or completely lock of a zone.

So in this case, I'd say Vengeance and Devotion are on par: Hunter's Mark will be void most of the time since you will use bonus action on taking the defensive stance, and for attacks, it's either advantage against one enemy, or at least +3 against any enemy. Seems to me Devotion is still the better choice considering your focus, but well, to each his own (don't forget to take Oath spells in consideration when choosing).

[MaxBoguely]

I figured, Shove is a melee attack, albeit a special one (Basic Rules pg. 74) which replaces a regular attack when you use the attack action. If I get an attack action from another source, e.g. Tunnel Fighter, it's probably eligible to be a shove. I'll ask my DM, since the Tunnel Fighter reaction attack would probably be considered to be distinct from the attack action, but I could see it going either way.

Yeah I think "the attack action" is definitely distinct from opportunity attacks. I'm not sure it would break anything to let you shove in place of your melee attack on an opportunity attack, though...especially in a 2-person party where knocking an enemy prone is less advantageous numbers-wise.


Who is next to you getting beat up that you need sentinel?

Sentinel is also for (a) ensuring enemies can't rush past you with a disengage and (b) actually stopping their movement. PAM doesn't really do anything to help you "lock down" an area if you don't also have Sentinel.

Furthermore, there will always be another party member getting hit, you simply have to make sure you are positioned to strike that party member's attackers. If no enemies are attacking any other party member, then you've achieved the goal of effectively protecting your allies.