Tell me what you think of this for a book series

[Traab]

I was thinking to myself while reading a few fanfics and came up with an idea that, if done correctly, could be very interesting. The basic gist of it is a fairly standard heroes journey/shounen style adventure. There is a great evil to fight, the hero gets stomped early on but survives and as the story progresses becomes stronger and stronger until he can fulfill his destiny. The difference is, shortly after winning the day and being the big damn hero, something occurs, he either realizes this has all been an illusion or he wakes up when he reaches the "end" and THEN figures it out. Turns out the big bad put him under during the epic butt stomping our hero took at the start. Him waking up back around chapter 5 and realizing this, is actually the end of book 1.

Book 2 is him going on the adventure for real this time. He keeps stumbling though because a surprising amount of events match closely to his imaginary trip but its always at least a bit off, and often greatly divergent. This time it plays out as far less of a shounen anime style story where he keeps hitting new levels of power and ability and far more of a long painful slog with friends and allies he makes picking up the slack along the way.

I figured book one should be stuffed full of hindsight clues. Ones that dont give away the game by any means, but when you look back knowing it all took place in the mind of the hero, you understand why things worked out the way they did, and what was a subtle sign of him basically creating this world. As an example, make a throwaway line or two early on in his first story about how he loves anime and fantasy novels, and then it becomes clear that the real reason the first book seemed fairly formulaic was because it was being "written" by a fan of those exact conventions. Meanwhile the second book is done in a more "realistic" fashion. He can no longer win fights just by being ultra mega determined this time and unlocking a new level of power by screaming really loudly, or having his love interest cry over his chest stabbed body. That sort of thing. A lot of the second story will be about him coming to terms with that fact. That just because he is involved with a very fantasy/shounen type of adventure, the "real" world doesnt work that way.

[MLai]

So you want to write a book series... where the first book is intentionally written to suck really badly? :smalleek:

[An Enemy Spy]

Got to agree with MLai here. If people get to the end of your book only to find out the whole thing was a big tease, they're going to throw it at the wall and not buy the second one.

[Traab]

It wouldnt be written terribly. Just because it HAS the standard genre conventions doesnt mean it cant be well written. After all, there is a reason those conventions exist. Just as there is a reason animes like bleach naruto one piece, and standard fantasy novels like the belgariad series and others like them do quite well despite checking off every trope on the list. Im aware that its threading a needle to try and strike the right balance, but I think it could be done in a way that makes the reader want to see how the story goes when its not inside this guys head. Maybe with a teaser at the end to show how the next book is written very differently.

[cobaltstarfire]

It might work better to have that big reveal somewhere other than at the end of the book?

But a whole story that's just in the guys head? It kind of strikes me as really pointless unless somehow the guys dreams are meaningful further in the story.

Needs more information, based on what you have given there's not much room to judge since it's basically. "I want to tell the hero's journey, except the first time around it's just a dream."

Since fanfiction kicked it off, why is fanfiction so fixated on this "it was all a dream/character is actually in a comma" thing anyway?

[Traab]

It might work better to have that big reveal somewhere other than at the end of the book?

But a whole story that's just in the guys head? It kind of strikes me as really pointless unless somehow the guys dreams are meaningful further in the story.

Needs more information, based on what you have given there's not much room to judge since it's basically. "I want to tell the hero's journey, except the first time around it's just a dream."

Since fanfiction kicked it off, why is fanfiction so fixated on this "it was all a dream/character is actually in a comma" thing anyway?

I actually dont read much of that type of fanfic, what I got this from was, in naruto, itachi could put you into an illusion that lasted for what seemed like 3 days. The infinite version of that basically let people live a lifetime in their minds. So it made me think, how could it have changed the story if everything after a certain point turned out to be in his head?

I didnt give much detail because I honestly dont have much in the way of detail. Just a general idea of an unusual hook that is often screwed up, and how it could be made to work. I know I initially said it goes back to chapter 5, but honestly, it could happen at any point. It would probably work better taking place some time during the second act or into the third really. Thats enough time to establish the story and whats going on and giving people enough to invest them in seeing how the story will really end now that the hero has broken the spell or otherwise come out of it. The next book would likely have to go the whole "But it turns out someone was in charge of him and is the REAL bad guy" type of thing to keep the story moving since it was fairly close to the end before the illusion thing came up. Or just be something like the bad guy wounded the hero but had to escape because his friends were coming or whatever, and now he has to figure out how to deal with this new twist on what he is capable of.

Im just not sure if you could do the style switch idea that I thought would make for an interesting twist that way. I suppose you could, and then the next book has readers wondering if every time a trope related to shounen comes up if he is back under an illusion again, but I dunno. The main idea is the hero learning some significant portion of the story only happened in his head and then having to go out and do it for real this time and having significantly more trouble because this is "real life" not some anime. But you could even do away with the anime part entirely and just have it be that things dont work out as well as you might choose to imagine them.

[cobaltstarfire]

It does sound like if you do it right it could be interesting? But it'd definitely have to keep tying back to the "dream" or whatever in some weird way to keep me personally engaged. Otherwise the initial hook just feels like pointless extra fluff.

In this case, the premise isn't drawing me in, I'm not even sure if it's the premise that hooks me in most cases, so much as the setting, aesthetic, and characters. So it's quite easy to imagine feeling cheated or annoyed at time wasted by the "twist" hook if it happens too late in the story.


I feel like there are anime that make fun of Shounen archetypes in a way like this (expecting what would happen in a shounen thing, but getting a more real world kind of thing happening). Like...a scene from Chuunibyou where one of the characters isn't playing along or something...

[Keltest]

If youre determined to have a large portion of the story pass in what is essentially a dream, you should at least endeavor to make it so that what happens in the dream is important. Not just "heres a parallel to what will actually happen" important, but "character learns something about himself/his enemy/his friends that leads to development" important.

[Kitten Champion]

In the first episodes of the Tower of Druaga anime, the protagonist goes through a series of JRPG-esque big heroic events - albeit played in a tongue-in-cheek fashion - only to wake up at the conclusion to his actual reality as some level one adventurer scrub who was knocked out after having just been defeated in his first battle.

I liked it, it was a good introduction. A clever way to set the tone for the mostly comedic series to put its cards on the table with regards to the melodramatic and power-fantasy aspects of the genre it's (somewhat) satirizing while giving us insight into the character through his embarrassing daydreams and how it contrasts to his current standing, as well as establish that this isn't a story about the Chosen Heroes of Destiny but rather the inglorious nobodies who populate a world which is flippant with the conventions of the genre.

The problem with your scenario is it seems like a pointless meta-trick to play on the reader, saying "you thought it was that type of story, but it's actually this type of story!" What does the reader get out of this illusory world that they're tricked into believing is real? What purpose would it serve beyond a gotcha at the end (or whenever you pull the rug out under the reader) that the whole narrative has been unreliable from the beginning? You need some reason why you shouldn't just start at book two (or whenever) beyond possible foreshadowing and what would turn out to be dramatic irony, like any fantasy book which uses vague prophecies to intentionally toy with readers' expectations.

[Dienekes]

You interested in a writer named Sanderson, and enjoy listening to lectures? Cuz your plot reminded me of this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ovtiazIzJA&t=19m10s)

[Douglas]

You interested in a writer named Sanderson, and enjoy listening to lectures? Cuz your plot reminded me of this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ovtiazIzJA&t=19m10s)
Yeah, that's a pretty good description of the main problem with this sort of thing. If your dramatic surprising changes-everything plot twist comes too far into the story, the people who get there won't like it and the people who would like it will give up on your story before getting there. You need to craft your story in such a way that the type of story is consistent, even if the specifics contain dramatic surprises - that mostly the same people will like your big plot twist as will like your first three chapters and everything in between.

Fundamentally, if the big special thing that makes your book stand out doesn't come up until someone's pretty much already committed to reading the whole book, then it will fail. You have to make your story stand out in the introduction phase, because that's what most people will base their decision on whether to read it on.

[Hopeless]

You could provide some clues to what is actually going to happen by revealing there's some foe leaving their opponents in a coma so when your protagonist wakes up its actually a big deal so it doesn't disregard the events of your first book only shows they're remarkable and when their true adventure starts you use call backs to the first book to explain why they've become so much better.

Maybe all the people they met during that coma are the other victims and one goal of your protagonist is to find a way to free them?