Possible Counter to Counterspell?

[ATHATH]

Inspired by a post from this thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?497998-Subtle-spell-questions

If I put a handkerchief, illusion, mask, etc. over my mouth and cast a spell that only has a verbal component, can someone (other than me) cast Counterspell on it?

[Drackolus]

Yes.
Because everyone would be wearing one and that's silly.

[Gastronomie]

Yes and no.

Meaning, I would allow it the first time, but from the second time then-on, I wouldn't allow it.

The rule of cool. People scream the names of their signature moves in manga because it looks cooler that way. Warlocks draw pentacles mid-air using a quill made of rainbow light, because it looks cooler that way (or, okay, maybe that's just my friend). Yes, you don't need to scream "KAMEHAMEHA", neither do you need to look badass, but it's just much cooler that way.

That said, I only give Counterspell to specific boss monsters, so this is not gonna happen many times.

[Klorox]

Yes and no.

Meaning, I would allow it the first time, but from the second time then-on, I wouldn't allow it.

The rule of cool. People scream the names of their signature moves in manga because it looks cooler that way. Warlocks draw pentacles mid-air using a quill made of rainbow light, because it looks cooler that way (or, okay, maybe that's just my friend). Yes, you don't need to scream "KAMEHAMEHA", neither do you need to look badass, but it's just much cooler that way.

That said, I only give Counterspell to specific boss monsters, so this is not gonna happen many times.

Unless you're Hawaiian, then you have to.

[famousringo]

Abracadab-COUNTERSPELLED.

Just because you're wearing a veil, doesn't mean they can't hear you speak. And speak up, boy! The spirits won't move for mumblers.

[NNescio]

Abracadab-COUNTERSPELLED.

Just because you're wearing a veil, doesn't mean they can't hear you speak. And speak up, boy! The spirits won't move for mumblers.

The issue is that Counterspell requires the counterspeller to "see" someone casting a spell, and not just "hear".

[Malifice]

The best defence to counterspell is:

1) Be invisible
2) Move more than 60' away from any caster with counterspell
3) Have a counterspell of your own prepared to counter the counterspell.

[Dalebert]

Oh good grief. It doesn't say they have to see your lips moving. It says they have to see you casting a spell. If they can see you and it's clear you're casting a spell (because they hear it), then they can see you casting a spell. Now all you have to do is somehow be out of sight and you can't be counterspelled, e.g. Greater Invisibility, being behind an illusory wall that you're already able to see through because you investigated or touched it, etc.

[MrStabby]

Then there are things like invoke duplicity. If you use that feature, YOU can cast a spell from a place where they can't see YOU.

[Dalebert]

Then there are things like invoke duplicity. If you use that feature, YOU can cast a spell from a place where they can't see YOU.

I loved that ability with my trickster cleric. It is incredibly useful. I didn't use it as much as you might think mostly because it took an action, but then that's true of many spells and effects.

[Malifice]

Subtle spell also works.

Really though. Just 'walk 30 feet backwards'. Its rare you'll start les than 30' away from an enemy spellcaster. DMs love to place those suckers miles back.

Once youre outside of 60' you cant be counterspelled. Door swings both ways then of course.

[TurboGhast]

Subtle spell also works.

Really though. Just 'walk 30 feet backwards'. Its rare you'll start les than 30' away from an enemy spellcaster. DMs love to place those suckers miles back.

Once you're outside of 60' you cant be counterspelled. Door swings both ways then of course.

Make sure the spell you want to use has enough range to hit your target if you do this. You couldn't hit the caster of Counterspell with Hold Person, for example.

[Mellack]

The issue is that Counterspell requires the counterspeller to "see" someone casting a spell, and not just "hear".

By a strict reading of that, if your group uses facing rules, would that mean counterspell only works from the front?

[famousringo]

The issue is that Counterspell requires the counterspeller to "see" someone casting a spell, and not just "hear".

I think you're taking Crawford's words too literally. He says "see" and "perceive", rather than "hear", but unless you're a lip reader, you can't tell somebody is using magic words by watching their lips move. You can tell they're using magic words because you can hear them saying magic words.

[Foxhound438]

I think you're taking Crawford's words too literally. He says "see" and "perceive", rather than "hear", but unless you're a lip reader, you can't tell somebody is using magic words by watching their lips move. You can tell they're using magic words because you can hear them saying magic words.

the other thing being "you know a spell is being cast because magic."

[Kornaki]

The best counter to counterspell is to ask your DM if you lose your spellslot, and then argue the opposite side per the thread on this forum. You will never see it get used again.

[RickAllison]

The best counter to counterspell is to ask your DM if you lose your spellslot, and then argue the opposite side per the thread on this forum. You will never see it get used again.

Hooray, being more trouble than it is worth!

[Malifice]

The best counter to counterspell is to ask your DM if you lose your spellslot, and then argue the opposite side per the thread on this forum. You will never see it get used again.

In my games:

DM: He counterspells. Cross off the slot.
Player: Cool.

Never understood DMs that tolerate player argumeents.

[RickAllison]

In my games:

DM: He counterspells. Cross off the slot.
Player: Cool.

Never understood DMs that tolerate player argumeents.

And anything that triggers off casting a spell goes. It is not as close to RAW, but (until we get a response from JC) is probably RAI. Makes it one of the most powerful spells per spell level, but it goes both ways.

I don't think this is a player argument, really. This is something that DMs are wondering about because it has a significant effect on NPC spellcasters. Those casters can be totally shut down by a party and, even if he manages to escape, still are ruined for the day. Party members can rely on other PCs, but those NPCs will quickly find themselves trampled.