Cleric with Shillelagh

[WielderofFlame]

Simple, I want my cleric to be able to cast shillelagh.

[Tiri]

Extra Spell?

[WielderofFlame]

Oh duh thanks

[Andezzar]

Oh duh thanksUnfortunately this is not an option by strict RAW. Extra Spell does not allow a character to learn a spell outside his spell list, like Expanded Knowledge does with powers.

So ask your DM whether he is willing to make a houserule.

[Troacctid]

Also, clerics don't normally have spells known, unless you're using the spontaneous variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm).

[Andezzar]

Something that does work: take a level of druid

[Ashtagon]

As a houserule, as long as you have plant domain (or similar), I'd let you swap out magic weapon (and its greater variant) for shilleagh in your spell list.

Alternately, homebrew a cleric domain with the spell.

Stuff in the DMG specifically allows for such DM-PC collaboration houserules.

[Eladrinblade]

Simple, I want my cleric to be able to cast shillelagh.

Why not just get a club or quarterstaff with a permanent shillelagh effect?

[SangoProduction]

Why not just get a club or quarterstaff with a permanent shillelagh effect?

If you're rich enough to have a cleric with Permanencied spells, you don't need Shilelagh.

[J-H]

It is available as a 50gp oil/potion. If you want it to be longer lasting, you can buy CL3 or CL5 potions.

[Eladrinblade]

If you're rich enough to have a cleric with Permanencied spells, you don't need Shilelagh.

A "permanent shillelagh" wouldn't actually require the permanency spell, it's just a regular club or quarterstaff with a "continuous or use-activated" shillelagh spell. Should be a 4000gp wondrous item. Doesn't need to be the actual weapon that gives it.

[SangoProduction]

Now that's much more specific.

[J-H]

A "permanent shillelagh" wouldn't actually require the permanency spell, it's just a regular club or quarterstaff with a "continuous or use-activated" shillelagh spell. Should be a 4000gp wondrous item. Doesn't need to be the actual weapon that gives it.

If your DM will allow that, you can also get a Vest of Mage Armor and walk around with Mage Armor all day for the low,low price of 2000-4000gp. No need for 16000gp Bracers of Armor +4!

[Eladrinblade]

If your DM will allow that, you can also get a Vest of Mage Armor and walk around with Mage Armor all day for the low,low price of 2000-4000gp. No need for 16000gp Bracers of Armor +4!

Right, because a +1 2d6 weapon that can never be any better is just so OP.

[Tiri]

Unfortunately this is not an option by strict RAW. Extra Spell does not allow a character to learn a spell outside his spell list, like Expanded Knowledge does with powers.

So ask your DM whether he is willing to make a houserule.

Really? Where in the rules is this stated?

[Eladrinblade]

Really? Where in the rules is this stated?

He's right and wrong. Tome and Blood originally had the feat, where it did not specify allowing you a spell outside your list, whereas the complete arcane version does.

[Tiri]

He's right and wrong. Tome and Blood originally had the feat, where it did not specify allowing you a spell outside your list, whereas the complete arcane version does.

Actually, he's still wrong. The Tome and Blood one doesn't prohibit learning a spell out-of-list, which, by RAW, would let the spellcaster taking it learn any spell that fit the criteria in the feat.

Besides, even if it did, the latest version is accurate. No being 'right and wrong' about it.

[Jay R]

It's a druid spell. Buy it as a magic item or take a level of druid.

[nedz]

Play a Druid

[Inevitability]

If dragon magazine is allowed, the Customize Domain (Magic) can get you Shillelagh as a 2nd-level spell, as well as some other neat spells.

[Zanos]

If your DM will allow that, you can also get a Vest of Mage Armor and walk around with Mage Armor all day for the low,low price of 2000-4000gp. No need for 16000gp Bracers of Armor +4!
Or you could just buy a mithral thistledown chainshirt, which has no penalties for anyone, and costs around 1200gp while giving +4 armor.

It's only a first level spell, so if you could pick up a wand if you pump your UMD. If not, Oils of 1st level spells are only 50gp.

[Andezzar]

Really? Where in the rules is this stated?Let me clear that up for you. Complete Arcane states:
You learn one additional spell at any level up to one lower than the highest level of spell you can currently cast.What spell level is Shilellagh on the cleric list? Right, it has no spell level on the cleric list, so it does not fit the quoted criterion.

While the rule is probably intended to allow learning spells from other spell lists, the following line does not allow explicitly it:
For classes such as wizard that have more options for learning spells, Extra Spell is generally used to learn a specifi c spell that the character lacks access to and would be unable to research.Not being able to otherwise research such a spell could just mean that the wizard does not have access to an arcane library or for some other reason is unable to do research.

[LTwerewolf]

Extra spell is pretty solidly in "ask your dm" territory. I read it as "choose a spell" and not "choose a spell on your list" which then goes on to talk about how it's intended to get spells you don't normally have access to.

[Andezzar]

So is Shilellagh of low enough level to be learned by a 3rd level cleric? I don't know. I cannot compare druid 1 to the casting of a cleric.

Not being able to research a spell can have multiple reasons, not just being on the wrong spell list.

[Zanos]

So is Shilellagh of low enough level to be learned by a 3rd level cleric? I don't know. I cannot compare druid 1 to the casting of a cleric.

Not being able to research a spell can have multiple reasons, not just being on the wrong spell list.
A spell level is not an entirely independent concept when you cross spell lists. It is standardized. 1 is less than 2.

[LTwerewolf]

So is Shilellagh of low enough level to be learned by a 3rd level cleric? I don't know. I cannot compare druid 1 to the casting of a cleric.

Not being able to research a spell can have multiple reasons, not just being on the wrong spell list.

This is why you're welcome to interpret it differently at your tables and is in the "ask your dm" territory. Your argument doesn't hold water at my tables, as I disagree with you. I'm sure at your table, my argument wouldn't hold either in return. That's ok and doesn't mean anyone is having fun wrong. It's just something that needs interpretation.

[ahenobarbi]

A spell level is not an entirely independent concept when you cross spell lists. It is a standardized. 1 is less than 2.

Yet many spells have different levels on different lista (eg. Haste is level 3 fot Wizard, level 1 for trapsmith, Planeshift is level 5 for Clerics, level 6 for Wizards). So there is a case for adjusting spell level (for balance or thematic reasons).

[AnachroNinja]

I don't see shillelagh as a significantly different spell then brambles/spikes so no reason not to let you get it if you really want it.

[Tiri]

Let me clear that up for you. Complete Arcane states:What spell level is Shilellagh on the cleric list? Right, it has no spell level on the cleric list, so it does not fit the quoted criterion.

All spells have levels, regardless of whose list they are on, and they all use the same levels for determining level-based effects relative to one another. Since the criteria in Extra Spell are based solely on levels, it shouldn't matter whose list the spells concerned are on.

[Andezzar]

All spells have levels, regardless of whose list they are on, and they all use the same levels for determining level-based effects relative to one another. Since the criteria in Extra Spell are based solely on levels, it shouldn't matter whose list the spells concerned are on.As ahenobarbi already pointed out, some spells have different levels for different classes. So which spell level should you use for the comparison? Haste as 1st level spell would be a lot more valuable than as a 3rd level spell in most cases.


A spell level is not an entirely independent concept when you cross spell lists. It is standardized. 1 is less than 2.No it is not. Spell level is a property that is not just an integer, it is a class name and an integer. You cannot compare druid 1 to cleric 2.

Let's take bite of the werewolf (druid 3, sorcerer/wizard 4) for example, when would a cleric be allowed to gain access to that spell through extra spell?

[LTwerewolf]

Let's take bite of the werewolf (druid 3, sorcerer/wizard 4) for example, when would a cleric be allowed to gain access to that spell through extra spell?

Given that clerics tend to get these type of buffing spells early, cleric 3 would be more appropriate than cleric 4.

[Andezzar]

Given that clerics tend to get these type of buffing spells early, cleric 3 would be more appropriate than cleric 4.Of course you can decide that as a houserule, but the rules support neither cleric 3 nor 4.

[LTwerewolf]

Of course you can decide that as a houserule, but the rules support neither cleric 3 nor 4.

No, actually it supports both 3 and 4. You're welcome to houserule otherwise.

[Andezzar]

No, actually it supports both 3 and 4. You're welcome to houserule otherwise.Then please show me the rule saying that extra spell allows you to take a spell outside your spell list, or how spell levels of different classes are supposed to be compared.

The feat Expanded Knowledge has this line:
You can choose any power, including powers from another discipline’s list or even from another class’s list.This should at least make the intention clear, for that feat. The lack of such a line on Extra Apell could mean that the intention is not to give the character access to spells form other lists. At the very least Extra Spell does not explicitly allow gaining access to spells from other lists.

I am not aware whether there are psionic powers that have different power levels for different classes, so I cannot say whether this is still an issue with the psionic feat and requires houseruling.

[LTwerewolf]

Then please show me the rule saying that extra spell allows you to take a spell outside your spell list, or how spell levels of different classes are supposed to be compared.

The feat Expanded Knowledge has this line:This should at least make the intention clear, for that feat. The lack of such a line on Extra Apell could mean that the intention is not to give the character access to spells form other lists. At the very least Extra Spell does not explicitly allow gaining access to spells from other lists.

I am not aware whether there are psionic powers that have different power levels for different classes, so I cannot say whether this is still an issue with the psionic feat and requires houseruling.


For classes such as wizard that have more options for learning spells, Extra Spell is generally used to learn a specific spell that the character lacks access to and would be unable to research.

To me this is clear intention that it's used to learn spells you lack access to. You know, since it says it. You can argue expanded knowledge is more clear all you want. I see extra spell as being as clear as it is. And yes, there are psionic powers on more than one list that are different levels (especially when the ardent is thrown in). It is silent as to how to treat them. Example: hustle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hustle.htm).



I see the difference in wording solely due to the difference between the psion and the disciplines and the other casters. Specialist wizards for example, still cannot cast a banned spell, regardless of extra spell. A psion is free to gain a power from another list. This is an important distinction.

[Andezzar]

I see the difference in wording solely due to the difference between the psion and the disciplines and the other casters. Specialist wizards for example, still cannot cast a banned spell, regardless of extra spell. A psion is free to gain a power from another list. This is an important distinction.Where do you get that from? According to your interpretation a character can use extra spell to gain a spell to which he "lacks access to and would be unable to research". This also applies to spells from a banned school for the specialist wizard. Either this line allows you to access any spell to which you lack access because they are not on your spell list or it does not, since you still cannot make a judgement whether such a spell is of sufficiently low level and you can lack access to a spells even from your own list.

[LTwerewolf]

Where do you get that from? According to your interpretation a character can use extra spell to gain a spell to which he "lacks access to and would be unable to research". This also applies to spells from a banned school for the specialist wizard. Either this line allows you to access any spell to which you lack access because they are not on your spell list or it does not, since you still cannot make a judgement whether such a spell is of sufficiently low level and you can lack access to a spells even from your own list.

Because prestige classes such as incantatrix tell us that even if the spell is in the spellbook (or as the wizard class tells us on a scroll or wand) it still cannot be cast.

[Tiri]

I think that in the case of a spell existing at different levels for different classes, by RAW Extra Spell would let you learn it at any of the levels it existed. It may be broken, but that holds true with many other RAW things in 3.5.

[Fizban]

Ask your DM nicely. It's a fun and thematic spell, so unless you're trying to break something there's no harm in allowing it. Unless you're specifically trying to layer a bunch of size increases or make up for Vow of Poverty taking away your weapons or something like that.

[Thurbane]

Even though the official FAQ is usually viewed with much disdain in these parts, here's what it has to say about the Extra Spell feat and spells not already on your class list:

Can the warmage (Complete Arcane) benefit from the Extra Spell feat?
No. Extra Spell lets you add one spell to your list of spells known, but the spell must be taken from your class spell list. Since the warmage already knows all the spells on his class spell list, this feat has no effect.

[Inevitability]

Even though the official FAQ is usually viewed with much disdain in these parts, here's what it has to say about the Extra Spell feat and spells not already on your class list:

If we're using the FAQ, I believe there are answers that directly forbid using extra spell to pick something not on your class list.

[Willie the Duck]

The Faq often did/does a good job of highlighting how the designers thought the rule worked, despite how they ended up wording it, so it's a good insight into RAI.

[Jay R]

This is somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but as long as we are discussing at what level a cleric could cast Shillelagh, there is an actual answer, by RAW.

The 9th level clerical spell Miracle can duplicate any spell, from any list, up to 7th level. This obviously includes Shillelagh. So by RAW, when a cleric can cast 9th level spells, she can cast Shillelagh.

Do what you like with that fact.

[Inevitability]

You can also look for a bunch of scrolls of Arcane Shillelagh (written by druids with Southern Magician) and use Anyspell to prepare and subsequently cast them.

[A.A.King]

Extra Spell is generally used to learn a specific spell that the character lacks access to and would be unable to research
To me this is clear intention that it's used to learn spells you lack access to. You know, since it says it.
I see the difference in wording solely due to the difference between the psion and the disciplines and the other casters. Specialist wizards for example, still cannot cast a banned spell, regardless of extra spell. A psion is free to gain a power from another list. This is an important distinction.

To you this may be clear but 'lack access' doesn't have to refer to a spell not on the wizard list. The full sentence is:

For classes such as wizard that have more options for learning spells, Extra Spell is generally used to learn a specific spell that the character lacks access to and would be unable to research.
The more options that they are referring to is the wizards ability to learn spells from scrolls and other wizard's their spell book. In theory a wizard can fill his spell books with every spell on the wizard list, but only if he has access to the right scrolls and the right wizards. I would argue that the "lack of access" Extra spell referrers to is simply lacking access to the right scrolls or wizards. The idea is that a Wizard who when he levels really wants to learn 3 very specific spells which he doesn't seem to be able to find in the campaign world can take Extra Spell for the final spell.

[Thurbane]

If we're using the FAQ, I believe there are answers that directly forbid using extra spell to pick something not on your class list.

I thought so too, but the above quote was all I could find?