Questions for Stat Stacking! (Also for PF)

[Xar Zarath]

So a few questions here...

1) I know that bonuses for a similar stat don't stack right? Like say casting Permanency Cat's Grace on yourself and then wearing a DEX boosting item, the only stat boost that counts is the one that is higher, yes?

2) If say you were to use Wish to boost the stat permanently and then cast a stat booster, would that stat boost stack? Example use Wish to +5 (this is the max, yes?) to Con permanently and then casting Permanency Bear's Endurance...the only one that is counted is the +5 right?

2a) Just in case no 2 questions allows for the stacking, if the Con character is now +9 (5 from Wish, 4 from Bear's Endurance) then wearing a Con boosting item, would that increase further or would it just take the highest score?

*Also I would just like to state out that there are epic items like Bracers of Relentless Might where the stat boost is +12 to Str and Con...cost wise vs spells available is it economically wise to use/afford such an item even when you're epic?

[martixy]

Bonuses have different types. Same types, except circumstance bonuses from different sources and dodge bonuses do not stack.
Different types, circumstance bonuses from different sources, dodge or untyped bonuses always stack.

Items and spells mostly give "enhancement" bonuses. Wish grants "inherent" bonuses.
This means they will stack.

For abilities specifically, you usually see inherent and enhancement types. Occasionally you can come across profane or holy bonuses. There are other types, but those are very rare, so you'd have to do book diving if you wish to stack abilities further.

[Necroticplague]

I preface answering this question by quoting the rules for stacking effects, which could probably solve all these problems if you had read it.

In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best bonus and worst penalty applies. Dodge bonuses and circumstance bonuses however, do stack with one another unless otherwise specified.



1) I know that bonuses for a similar stat don't stack right? Like say casting Permanency Cat's Grace on yourself and then wearing a DEX boosting item, the only stat boost that counts is the one that is higher, yes?
Depends on the type of bonus. Since most bonuses to stats are enhancement bonuses, this is a 'no'. But if you can find a DEX boosting item that doesn't give an enhancement bonus, then they would.



2) If say you were to use Wish to boost the stat permanently and then cast a stat booster, would that stat boost stack? Example use Wish to +5 (this is the max, yes?) to Con permanently and then casting Permanency Bear's Endurance...the only one that is counted is the +5 right? Again, depends on the type of the stat booster. Wish is an inherent bonus, so as long as the stat booster isn't an inherint bonus, you're goof. For that specific example, it would stack, since Bear's Endurance is an enhancement bonus, and Wish is an inherit bonus. Side note: Bear's Endurance isn't on the list of spells you can effect by Permanency.



2a) Just in case no 2 questions allows for the stacking, if the Con character is now +9 (5 from Wish, 4 from Bear's Endurance) then wearing a Con boosting item, would that increase further or would it just take the highest score? Again, it depends on the type of the stat-boosting item.


*Also I would just like to state out that there are epic items like Bracers of Relentless Might where the stat boost is +12 to Str and Con...cost wise vs spells available is it economically wise to use/afford such an item even when you're epic?Not really. those things are ridiculously expensive.

[Serafina]

For Pathfinder, there is a FAQ that basically goes "can't add the same stat twice to the same thing". That is in addition to the different bonuses, such as Enhancement, Size, Dodge etc.

Say you are an Enlightened Paladin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/enlightened-paladin-paladin-archetype), adding your Charisma to your Dexterity for adding it to AC. This is just your normal "Dex to AC", just bigger.
You also dip into Lore-Oracle (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/mysteries/paizo---oracle-mysteries/lore) for Sidestep Secret - which lets you add Charisma in place of your Dexterity to your AC. This would bring your addition to "Charisma + Charisma"
You then take a dip into Scaled Fist Monk (not yet on the SRD, basically Monk that uses Charisma for everything that uses Wisdom) and run around unarmored - now you also add your Charisma to your AC as a non-typed bonus. Your armor class would now be (Charisma (untyped) + ((Charisma + Charisma (Dexterity-bonus) + whatever else you get + 10).
Suppose you also have Celestial Obedience (Arshea (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/DeityDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Arshea)) and get Flawless Form - this gives you an armor-bonus (like you'd get from armor) while you're not wearing armor. It's equal to your Charisma.
This would end up adding your charisma four times to you AC, so with a Charisma of, say, 26, you'd get a bonus of +32.

As per the FAQ, that's not allowed. You'd only get your Charisma to AC once, even if it's all different bonuses (untyped, dexterity, armor) from different sources (three classes and one feat) that should stack.

A lot of people ignore that FAQ because just going "different type, different source stacks, otherwise not" eliminates the worst abuses anyway.

[Extra Anchovies]

1. If you look at the full text for Cat's Grace and the Belt of Incredible Dexterity, you'll find that they both apply an enhancement bonus to Dexterity, so they do not stack with each other.

2. Using Wish to increase ability scores applies an inherent bonus, which would stack with an enhancement bonus from a spell or item because they would be of two different types.

2a. The character would have a +5 [inherent] bonus to Constitution from Wish, plus the higher of the two enhancement bonuses to Constitution between the spell and the item.

As an aside, I don't recommend permanency as a source of enhancement bonuses to ability scores, because permanent spells can still be dispelled.


For Pathfinder, there is a FAQ that basically goes "can't add the same stat twice to the same thing". That is in addition to the different bonuses, such as Enhancement, Size, Dodge etc.

Say you are an Enlightened Paladin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/enlightened-paladin-paladin-archetype), adding your Charisma to your Dexterity for adding it to AC. This is just your normal "Dex to AC", just bigger.
You also dip into Lore-Oracle (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/mysteries/paizo---oracle-mysteries/lore) for Sidestep Secret - which lets you add Charisma in place of your Dexterity to your AC. This would bring your addition to "Charisma + Charisma"
You then take a dip into Scaled Fist Monk (not yet on the SRD, basically Monk that uses Charisma for everything that uses Wisdom) and run around unarmored - now you also add your Charisma to your AC as a non-typed bonus. Your armor class would now be (Charisma (untyped) + ((Charisma + Charisma (Dexterity-bonus) + whatever else you get + 10).
Suppose you also have Celestial Obedience (Arshea (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/DeityDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Arshea)) and get Flawless Form - this gives you an armor-bonus (like you'd get from armor) while you're not wearing armor. It's equal to your Charisma.
This would end up adding your charisma four times to you AC, so with a Charisma of, say, 26, you'd get a bonus of +32.

As per the FAQ, that's not allowed. You'd only get your Charisma to AC once, even if it's all different bonuses (untyped, dexterity, armor) from different sources (three classes and one feat) that should stack.

That's not quite correct - the FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9sgk) gives an example of +Cha (deflection) stacking with +Cha (untyped). I find that the best way to understand and apply the ruling is to give all untyped +(ability modifier) bonuses a typing that matches the associated ability (e.g. Divine Grace applying a Charisma-type bonus to saving throws), and then applying the normal stacking rules.

OP, however, seems to be talking about applying bonuses to ability scores, rather than applying ability scores to other numbers.

[Xar Zarath]

Thanks for the replies. Cleared the bits up nicely.

[DeadMech]

As an aside, I don't recommend permanency as a source of enhancement bonuses to ability scores, because permanent spells can still be dispelled.

I'm mildly interested in hearing what would be advised. Aside from the stat buff spells not being on the permanency list so being of questionable validity to begin with.

A dispelled permanency is certainly annoying. You effectively lose out on the XP it cost to cast in the first place. While magic items are harder to destroy they take gold to obtain. And while I hear XP is a river I don't tend to hear that about gold so often. They also take up equipment slots which are limited. Or else they are slotless and even more expensive as a result.

I've been interested in 3.5 for a long time but my actual system mastery is quite lacking, I figure.