Does Moradin still love me?

[TrollinOtter]

I was playing with some friends a while ago. I was killed by a monster. Luckily my party has a druid who casted reincarnate. I was a level 7(I think so but I dont think it matters) dwarf cleric. I worshipped moradin. My friend rolled and I was turned into a water Orc. And as we all know Moradin dosent like orcs. My question is Can I still be a cleric and worship Moradin? My Dm says that I cant because I am now in the body of a orc. But Reincarnate lets me keep all my mental stats. My question is, Can I still worship moradin in an orc body?

[Pugwampy]

You are a dwarf soul stuck inside an orc body . If Moradin cannot tell the difference , then he is no God .

[Inevitability]

It's like being a transgendered person: just like a man might have a woman's genitals while still being a man, your dwarf may have the body of an orc while still being a dwarf.

There's sahuagin that look like sea elves: it's not like those get shunned by their elf-hating deities, do they?

[MuddlingThrough]

You can certainly still worship him and, as mentioned, he should understand the circumstances and not deny cleric abilities (if that's even a thing gods do in RAW; I'm not sure).

If your DM is dead set on being an orc making Moradrin refuse to recognize you, it seems like a good hook for a side quest (since, if you were level 7, I'm guessing no one in the party will have access for a while) to get Polymorph Any Object cast on your character to return to being a dwarf. It would probably be affordable to just go to a city and have someone cast it on your character (if your DM would follow the spellcaster services rules), or you could suggest a proper quest for it (if he wouldn't). He might rule that Moradrin would be down with supporting you as a orcish cleric so long as you're actively working to fix the "orcish" part.

[Inevitability]

You can certainly still worship him and, as mentioned, he should understand the circumstances and not deny cleric abilities (if that's even a thing gods do in RAW; I'm not sure).

The DM is probably interpreting the following rule:


Ex-Clerics
A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. He cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until he atones (see the atonement spell description).

Apparently 'having an orc body' counts as a violation of Moradin's code.

[Extra Anchovies]

Moradin himself has an Intelligence of 24 and a Wisdom of 28, which is well more than enough to know that there are exceptions to the norm in any group. His opposition to orcs is not because they are orcs; it's because of the long history of war between orcs and Dwarves, and because of Gruumsh's dogma of violent orcish superiority. An orc who chose to follow Moradin's principles could well be held in higher regard by Moradin than an average dwarven worshipper, because some dwarves may offer prayers because it's just what dwarves (as a culture) do, but the orc's decision to openly serve a deity hated by their native culture and by the god that created their species would be testament to the veracity of the orc's belief. Moradin might even favor an orcish cleric over some of the dwarven clergy, because the orc is in a rare position to spread Moradin's teachings to orcish communities who would kill or drive out any dwarves who tried the same.

The dwarves, however, are a different matter. Many of them have likely internalized Moradin's disdain for specific elements of orcish culture and religion into a larger bigotry against orcs in general, so a dwarf reincarnated as an orc would likely face a lot of trouble even if they could readily prove their past life as a dwarf. It's not hard to imagine some dwarves, even fellow clerics of Moradin, thinking of the reincarnation into an orc as either a judgement and rejection by Moradin or a reflection of immorality or orcish sympathizing on the part of the reincarnated dwarf. The dwarf who was reincarnated may also have some internal struggles with their new body, like Dire_Stirge suggested above, especially if they held anti-orc prejudices themselves.

So I don't think you have much reason to worry about Moradin turning his back on you, but it's likely that you'll have a hard time interacting with other dwarves. Given time to prove your continued devotion through service to the Soul-Forger, however, your continued worship of Moradin in spite of your new form could turn from a mark of shame to a badge of honor, proof of tenacity in the face of challenges to your faith.

[weckar]

By the way you phrase your question, your DM seems to be saying 'no' to you even worshipping Moradin. This seems strange to me, as any sentient creature can in theory worship whomever they wish...

[FearlessGnome]

Like the others are saying, talk to your DM. He is being unreasonable. Any god who lets their clerics fall because they rolled poorly on the Reincarnate table is a pretty ****ty god. If your DM wants to play it like that, fine, roleplay being angry with Moradin and embracing your new place in life as a cleric of Gruumsh. Any real cleric of Gruumsh will be more than happy to cast Atone on you, allowing you (explicitly, in the rules) to go from fallen cleric of Moradin to full fledged cleric of Gruumsh. The level loss sucks, but hey, you got a stat boost out of it.

[SangoProduction]

Considering Clerics are fueled from their devotion, rather than a god(s) directly (however the cleric may view it), just have your Cleric worship an effigy that's like Moradin in every way, except that he accepts orcs.

From a roleplay perspective, if this wasn't a DM-issue, I would say the problem would be more related to your character's own prejudices than the diety's, and your character not being able to reconcile their belief with their new form.

For your specific issue, if you don't use the effigy option...well, just talk to the GM.

[TrollinOtter]

Thanks y'all. Ill show this to my DM and see what he says.

[Zanos]

Considering Clerics are fueled from their devotion, rather than a god(s) directly (however the cleric may view it), just have your Cleric worship an effigy that's like Moradin in every way, except that he accepts orcs.

From a roleplay perspective, if this wasn't a DM-issue, I would say the problem would be more related to your character's own prejudices than the diety's, and your character not being able to reconcile their belief with their new form.

For your specific issue, if you don't use the effigy option...well, just talk to the GM.
Pretty sure Moradin is a Faerun deity, a setting which specifically bans clerics of ideals. Divine magic does come directly from gods in Faerun.

And yeah a dwarf in an orc body shouldn't lose their clerical powers.

[digiman619]

Pretty sure Moradin is a Faerun deity, a setting which specifically bans clerics of ideals. Divine magic does come directly from gods in Faerun.

And yeah a dwarf in an orc body shouldn't lose their clerical powers.

Actually, Moradin was in the list of default deities in the PHB, which explicitly said that clerics of ideals were viable.

[Inevitability]

Pretty sure Moradin is a Faerun deity, a setting which specifically bans clerics of ideals. Divine magic does come directly from gods in Faerun.

And yeah a dwarf in an orc body shouldn't lose their clerical powers.

Moradin appears in Greyhawk too. AFAIK, it is possible to worship an ideal in that setting.

[Zanos]

Fair enough. Been playing too much Faerun recently.

[nyjastul69]

This is an obvious blessing from Moradin. He has given you this fine new orc form so that you will go out and start showing all orcs the majesty of Moradin. They are far more likely to listen to another orc than a dwarf.

This definitely seems like a golden role play opportunity on several levels. I don't see any reason why you would want to stop, or Moradin would want you to stop, worshiping him.

[SirNMN]

I would say pick a different Dwarven god if the DM the argument the others gave doesn't work

[TrollinOtter]

Thanks again all I was able to convince my DM

[Inevitability]

Thanks again all I was able to convince my DM

We did it, GitP!

[GreyBlack]

We did it, GitP!

GitP. Resolving matters of tabletop, one DM at a time.