Should the curse of lycanthropy end with death, or should there be werezombies?

[Vegan Squirrel]

How would you run it in your games?

In my campaign world, there's a region under an apocalyptic magical effect that raises all corpses as undead beings. Human inhabitants died out centuries ago, except possibly for a small cell here or there that's managed to survive and reproduce. I'm planning on having a tribe of wererats that took over one of the cities, because hey there's no one to keep them in hiding any more. Their corpses could come back as humanoid zombies or as wererat zombies that can still change form. Or maybe they stay in whatever form they died in. Rule of cool works for that, but I haven't made up my mind yet.

It's an interesting interaction, though, and I'm curious to hear what other creative DMs would do with the idea of animating lycanthrope corpses. I'm not so much looking for advice as just opening an interesting discussion, but of course I'm hoping it will inspire me along the way. What would you do?

[pwykersotz]

You answered your own question by using the term "werezombies"!

These could be an excuse to use the more hyper-aggressive zombies from I Am Legend or such. Zombies who not only hate the living and hold sinister cravings, but also who are incredibly fast, strong, and capable of seeking them out. They might be capable of pack tactics and have a hierarchy of sorts, and it might be twisted based on the capabilities of the undead. The blood drinkers might not get along well with the flesh eaters.

Sounds like horrible, horrible fun!

[AuraTwilight]

It's worth noting that in the original folklore, a dead werewolf just becomes a vampire.

[Temperjoke]

I'd say they should be stuck as hybrid form zombies, a more powerful form of zombie, but still driven by the same base functions like other zombies.

[RickAllison]

IIRC, the curse does not end with death. A raised person who was a lycanthrope remains so (else you could just heal a natural by killing and raising rather than using Wish). Ordinarily, reviving as a zombie would have no impact.

But who cares what RAW says? I would make them a unique kind of undead, with some kind of infectious bite.

[Erys]

I think keeping the form they were in when they died and unable to change makes the most sense; while having a lingering, albeit diminished, lycanthropy curse present that they can still pass on.

[RickAllison]

I think keeping the form they were in when they died and unable to change makes the most sense; while having a lingering, albeit diminished, lycanthropy curse present that they can still pass on.

When a lycanthrope dies, they revert to their humanoid form.

[Erys]

When a lycanthrope dies, they revert to their humanoid form.

But there is a wild card in play, an "apocalyptic magical effect that raises all corpses as undead beings", whose to say that doesn't act immediately (even if they don't technically rise till later?) and prevents them from changing form?

All up to the OP on that one.

[uraniumrooster]

There are two ways people can get the Lycanthropy curse - by having it inflicted up on them by a bite or magical means (Afflicted), or if one or both of their parents are Lycanthropes (Natural). Afflicted Lycanthropes can be cured by a Remove Curse spell (Greater Restoration and True Resurrection also remove curses), but Natural Lycanthropes can only be cured by a Wish. Notably, Revivify, Raise Dead and Resurrection do not remove curses, which suggests that Lycanthropy and other similar curses can linger for quite a long time after death (the time limit on Resurrection is a century).

It's harder to say how Lycanthropy would interact with undeath. I would probably have them reanimate in their hybrid form so werezombies would be immediately recognizable. Lycanthropes usually have enhanced ability scores and movement options depending on their type - Str & Con for werebears and -boars, Dex for wererats, etc. I would keep the physical ability scores and the enhanced movement for werezombies - basically Lycanthropy and Zombism combine to make something closer to the "fast zombies" from 28 Days Later instead of the classic "slow zombies". Of course, Lycanthropes are most well-known for their immunity to non-silvered weapons, so I would definitely keep that on my werezombies. I'd also let the werezombies keep any natural armor they had as Lycanthropes, and they would still be able to use their Multiattcks as well as any Bite/Claw/Tusk/etc attacks, which would continue to spread Lycanthropy, even in undeath.

Of course, one of the defining characteristics of zombies is that they're stupid, mindless bodies that don't stop to observe their surroundings or consider tactics, but just want to eat brains. So, I'd give werezombies the same low mental ability scores of a standard zombie. I would also give them a slight Con boost, and keep the Undead Fortitude ability. Since zombies are, IMO, too stupid to use weapons, I'd take away any weapons listed under their Lycanthrope stat block and replace it with a basic zombie slam if they don't have some kind of claw attack in their hybrid form.

[JellyPooga]

(Awesome post)

This. This is how to do it.

[Vegan Squirrel]

Interesting perspectives! I never would have thought to equate lycanthropy with an incredibly fast ultra-zombie form, but a number of people have suggested that and it seems fun.


It's worth noting that in the original folklore, a dead werewolf just becomes a vampire.

Thank you! I had not heard that bit of folklore. I was going to use vampires in a different area, but it's an intriguing thought.

It would be interesting to treat lycanthropy and vampirism as the same affliction—one is its effect on the living, the other its effect on the dead.


"(Awesome post)"

Good analysis, I'm on the same page with all of that. I'll probably do just that for this campaign, in fact. I'd already made a number of other creatures into zombies, but I can easily adapt that with a higher Dex (especially for the wererats) and higher speed. I'll post the stat block here when I write it up.

[MrStabby]

It's worth noting that in the original folklore, a dead werewolf just becomes a vampire.

Oh? Where is this from - I haven't come across this one before? I actually thought they were different legends that got grouped together in Gothic fiction - but keen to know more.

[Vegan Squirrel]

Here's the stat block of the wererat werezombie, or at least its current incarnation. A few notes. I decided to reduce the nonsilvered weapon immunity to a resistance, figuring that the lycanthropy is not as effective at protecting the body now that it is dead and rotting. However, I added silvered weapons as an exception to Undead Fortitude (yes, it bothers me a little to make it different than the normal Undead Fortitude, but I like it anyway). I'm torn on the challenge rating, because they didn't include lycanthropy in the DMG's list of monster features, and there's room for a judgment call. CR 2 (the same as the wererat) seems reasonable, with the higher HP and Undead Fortitude balancing the drop from weapon immunity to weapon resistance. Also, the slam is somewhat less effective than the wererat's weapon attacks, and the werezombie lacks the wererat's keen senses and skills.

WEREZOMBIE (WERERAT)
Medium undead, neutral evil

Armor Class 12
Hit Points 46 (7d8 + 15)
Speed 30 ft.

Str 10 (+0) Dex 15 (+2) Con 15 (+2) Int 3 (-4) Wis 6 (-2) Cha 5 (-3)

Saving Throws Wis +0
Damage Resistances bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage from nonmagical weapons that aren’t silvered
Damage Immunities poison
Condition Immunities poisoned
Senses darkvision 60 ft., passive Perception 8
Languages understands Common but can’t speak
Challenge 2 (450 XP)

Undead Fortitude. If damage reduces the werezombie to 0 hit points, it must make a Constitution saving throw with a DC of 5 + the damage taken, unless the damage is radiant, from a silvered weapon, or from a critical hit. On a success, the werezombie drops to 1 hit point instead.

ACTIONS

Multiattack. The werezombie makes two attacks, one with its bite and one with its slam.

Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 4 (1d4 + 2) piercing damage. If the target is a humanoid, it must succeed on a DC 12 Constitution saving throw or be cursed with wererat lycanthropy.

Slam. Melee Weapon Attack: +2 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 3 (1d6) bludgeoning damage.

[Sigreid]

I would only allow zombie werewolves if they were also pirates. The dreaded zombie-werewolf-pirate is the true terror of the seas.

[RickAllison]

I would only allow zombie werewolves if they were also pirates. The dreaded zombie-werewolf-pirate is the true terror of the seas.

No need to breathe and able to withstand the terrors of ocean fauna.

[DragonSorcererX]

How would you run it in your games?

In my campaign world, there's a region under an apocalyptic magical effect that raises all corpses as undead beings. Human inhabitants died out centuries ago, except possibly for a small cell here or there that's managed to survive and reproduce. I'm planning on having a tribe of wererats that took over one of the cities, because hey there's no one to keep them in hiding any more. Their corpses could come back as humanoid zombies or as wererat zombies that can still change form. Or maybe they stay in whatever form they died in. Rule of cool works for that, but I haven't made up my mind yet.

It's an interesting interaction, though, and I'm curious to hear what other creative DMs would do with the idea of animating lycanthrope corpses. I'm not so much looking for advice as just opening an interesting discussion, but of course I'm hoping it will inspire me along the way. What would you do?

This is something called "Rulling", if you are playing on your own world you can set the rules, if you are playing on a official campaign setting you can search for it, or look for it on D&D 3.5, if it could happen there it can happen now, and if you find nothing... DO IT!

[AuraTwilight]

Oh? Where is this from - I haven't come across this one before? I actually thought they were different legends that got grouped together in Gothic fiction - but keen to know more.

It comes from Greece. Gothic literature separated them into different creatures in the 19th century. Many other countries had them separate in the first place, but most of these depictions are so different from the modern form that it's clear that the Gothic literature is based on the Greco-roman ideas.

[JellyPooga]

WEREZOMBIE (WERERAT)
Medium undead, neutral evil

Armor Class 12
Hit Points 46 (7d8 + 15)
Speed 30 ft.

Str 10 (+0) Dex 15 (+2) Con 15 (+2) Int 3 (-4) Wis 6 (-2) Cha 5 (-3)

Saving Throws Wis +0
Damage Resistances bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage from nonmagical weapons that aren’t silvered
Damage Immunities poison
Condition Immunities poisoned
Senses darkvision 60 ft., passive Perception 8
Languages understands Common but can’t speak
Challenge 2 (450 XP)

Undead Fortitude. If damage reduces the werezombie to 0 hit points, it must make a Constitution saving throw with a DC of 5 + the damage taken, unless the damage is radiant, from a silvered weapon, or from a critical hit. On a success, the werezombie drops to 1 hit point instead.

ACTIONS

Multiattack. The werezombie makes two attacks, one with its bite and one with its slam.

Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 4 (1d4 + 2) piercing damage. If the target is a humanoid, it must succeed on a DC 12 Constitution saving throw or be cursed with wererat lycanthropy.

Slam. Melee Weapon Attack: +2 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 3 (1d6) bludgeoning damage.

Looks ok to me. Some changes I'd make;

1) Use the Ability Score modifications from the DMG (pg.282). This gives you;

Str:11 (+0), Dex:15 (+2), Con:14 (+2), Int:5 (-3), Wis:6 (-2), Cha:4 (-3)

This is only superficially different to the stat-block you've got, but they're smarter than your average zombie (which you can represent with "animal" cunning, including basic pack-tactics). Perhaps open up the possibility of basic weapon use.

2) Remove the Radiant damage by-pass on Undead Fortitude. I think it could make for an interesting scenario where the players are all, like "Zombies! Break out the Radiant damage!" and then "It's not working! What do we do now!?!" when their Sacred Flames and Divine Smites aren't doing the job they expected.

By having Silver as both a bypass to their damage Resistance and Undead Fortitude, I think you can get away with a swap-out for Radiant instead of an addition-to. Fluff it as a weird by-product of the curses interacting.

3) Switch the "standard Zombie Slam" for a Claw attack using Dex. I'd go for;

Claw; Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5ft, one target. Hit: 4 (1d4+2) slashing damage

Reasoning? I dunno really; I've got this image of Were-zomb-rats being fast and vicous (for a zombie); all teeth and claws. A very bad slam attack doesn't really fit that image.

4) Optional Variants. There's some wiggle-room for some nasty extras for this idea.

Natural vs. Afflicted: Differentiating between natural and afflicted Were-zomb-rats is an idea, with the above stat-block representing afflicted lycanthropes. Giving natural ones full Immunity to B/P/S and slightly higher stats, would be a subtle but significant boost for a slightly harder challenge.

Infectious Zombies: For a really nasty surprise, perhaps replace the Curse of Lycanthropy inflicted with a bite with something akin to Mummy Rot that instead of turning the victim to dust, raises them as a Were-zomb-rat themselves.

[Vegan Squirrel]

Looks ok to me. Some changes I'd make;

I'll address these in turn.


1) Use the Ability Score modifications from the DMG (pg.282). This gives you;

Str:11 (+0), Dex:15 (+2), Con:14 (+2), Int:5 (-3), Wis:6 (-2), Cha:4 (-3)

This is only superficially different to the stat-block you've got, but they're smarter than your average zombie (which you can represent with "animal" cunning, including basic pack-tactics). Perhaps open up the possibility of basic weapon use.

I didn't do that because the zombies in the Monster Manual don't follow those NPC suggestions, and so I've tried to adhere more closely to the zombies in the monster manual as I've added more zombie creatures. I also get where you're going with the "smarter than the average zombie," but since wererats only have Int 10, I don't see lycanthropy really having that effect. Anyway, no need to bicker over 2 points of Int. I agree it's a cool idea.


2) Remove the Radiant damage by-pass on Undead Fortitude. I think it could make for an interesting scenario where the players are all, like "Zombies! Break out the Radiant damage!" and then "It's not working! What do we do now!?!" when their Sacred Flames and Divine Smites aren't doing the job they expected.

By having Silver as both a bypass to their damage Resistance and Undead Fortitude, I think you can get away with a swap-out for Radiant instead of an addition-to. Fluff it as a weird by-product of the curses interacting.

Very interesting suggestion. I'll mull it over, but then again I don't see it making much difference since the zombies have rarely made their Undead Fortitude saves anyway.


3) Switch the "standard Zombie Slam" for a Claw attack using Dex. I'd go for;

Claw; Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5ft, one target. Hit: 4 (1d4+2) slashing damage

Reasoning? I dunno really; I've got this image of Were-zomb-rats being fast and vicous (for a zombie); all teeth and claws. A very bad slam attack doesn't really fit that image.

Yeah, I was thinking about that. The crawling claw gets a similar attack, and it's supposed to represent merely a human hand, not a rat claw (though to be fair, a claw attack and a slam attack are kind of the same thing for a disembodied hand). So I think I might switch it out for that.


4) Optional Variants. There's some wiggle-room for some nasty extras for this idea.

Natural vs. Afflicted: Differentiating between natural and afflicted Were-zomb-rats is an idea, with the above stat-block representing afflicted lycanthropes. Giving natural ones full Immunity to B/P/S and slightly higher stats, would be a subtle but significant boost for a slightly harder challenge.

In my case, almost all of the werezombies will be natural because there aren't many living humanoids to be found in this region. At least until the PCs' expedition enters the arena. But I might work out a tougher variant all the same. Sounds like good gameplay.


Infectious Zombies: For a really nasty surprise, perhaps replace the Curse of Lycanthropy inflicted with a bite with something akin to Mummy Rot that instead of turning the victim to dust, raises them as a Were-zomb-rat themselves.

I thought about that a little, but then there will be vampires later, and they'll turn were-zomb-rat if the bite kills them anyway. I think that's enough for me.


PS, I'm making choices for my campaign, but everyone has interesting ideas and I hope someone else gets use out of these concepts with their own choices!

[uraniumrooster]

That looks great, nice job! It should be sufficiently more challenging than a standard zombie, and a bit tougher than a standard wererat. I think CR2 is about right.

I like the idea of replacing the slam attack with a dex-based claw attack. I'm surprised wererats don't have claw attacks on their default stat block, actually.

[Vegan Squirrel]

That looks great, nice job! It should be sufficiently more challenging than a standard zombie, and a bit tougher than a standard wererat. I think CR2 is about right.

I like the idea of replacing the slam attack with a dex-based claw attack. I'm surprised wererats don't have claw attacks on their default stat block, actually.

Thanks!

Even the giant rat has no claw attack; they're biters. I could've seen them adding one to the wererat, but then wererats are expected to use weapons instead of their claws.