PF Wizard 20 VS China Army?

[Xar Zarath]

So there have been tons of threads about a Wizard 20 going up against the US army and such.

But now I want to see what happens if a PF Wizard 20 can go up against the army of the People's Republic of China....

Also no shenanigans and rules abuses, please and thank you.

[GreyBlack]

The Chinese military has no way to hit incorporeal objects, nor is it capable of extradimensional travel. The Wizard wins.

[icefractal]

Define "go up against?" What is the Wizard trying to accomplish?

Because, for example if the goal was for the army to stop existing, then the easiest way would probably be to hole up and gather info for a few days, then take control of China's government using mind-control, illusions, disguise, and divinations. At that point, you can disband the army or whatever.

Alternately, if the army were all gathered in one place and you had to destroy them quickly, then you could teleport to the nearest nuclear submarine and use mind control to make them launch.

So, pretty much like a Wizard vs any modern army.

[Malroth]

and of course a Chain Spell: War (chain Lightning) can kill up to 200,000 targets per casting without any caster level boosting if you feel like just blasting instead of being smart.

[khadgar567]

and of course a Chain Spell: War (chain Lightning) can kill up to 200,000 targets per casting without any caster level boosting if you feel like just blasting instead of being smart.
I prefer nuke the capital after disbanding arm then maybe ICBM the washington DC so they can invade

[GreyBlack]

I prefer nuke the capital after disbanding arm then maybe ICBM the washington DC so they can invade

Let's be fair. What works actually happen is Time Stop > Greater Invisibility > Greater Teleport without error > Dominate Person on the Chinese President, force him to issue the nuclear orders vs... anyone, which sets off Mutually Assured Destruction. Then, Plane Shift to your personal demiplane and go back to reading books.

[Xar Zarath]

Define "go up against?" What is the Wizard trying to accomplish?

Hmm basically up front total war...although I don't think the armies of today work like that anymore but then again China has way more manpower to throw against the enemy Wizard.


and of course a Chain Spell: War (chain Lightning) can kill up to 200,000 targets per casting without any caster level boosting if you feel like just blasting instead of being smart.

Really? War spells have that much raw power without any boosting?! Is this RAW or really how it is RAI?

[Malroth]

When you stack a template that affects 25 targets per caster lv onto a spell that targets one person per caster level with a metamagic feat that replicates the spell once per caster level the math gets pretty stupid pretty quickly.

[Extra Anchovies]

Hmm basically up front total war...although I don't think the armies of today work like that anymore but then again China has way more manpower to throw against the enemy Wizard.

Cast Gate to pull in your favorite calling-capable outsider, command them to call in more buddies and have the new arrivals all do the same, send the chain-summoned army off to battle, hide in a Magnificent Mansion for a day and a half, then come back to claim victory.


Really? War spells have that much raw power without any boosting?! Is this RAW or really how it is RAI?

Chain Spell A) doesn't exist in Pathfinder, and B) doesn't work with Chain Lightning:

Any spell that specifies a single target and has a range greater than touch can be chained so as to affect that primary target normally, then arc to a number of secondary targets equal to your caster level (maximum 20).
Targets: One primary target, plus one secondary target/level (each of which must be within 30 ft. of the primary target)
The War Spell template is 3.5, caps the number of targets at 25*CL, and increases the casting time to at least 1 minute, so it's not of much use to our hypothetical China-conquering wizard.

[BWR]

Short answer, unless the wizard is almost criminally negligent about protection, Contingencies and back-up plans, there is no way the Chinese can win. With the right protection the wizard could kill every one of his opponents with a knife if he wanted to. China has about 3.5 million soldiers (including reservists and paramilitaries) so it might take a while to do it that way, but he probably has time.

[Calthropstu]

A D&D caster would mop the floor with a modern army.

For a while.

Unless epicly careful to make sure no one found out about his existence, eventually someone would figure out a way to combat him, maybe even figure out planar travel in the process. Then we would be invading planes with tractors and mining for masses of metal and oil.

[BWR]

A D&D caster would mop the floor with a modern army.

For a while.

Unless epicly careful to make sure no one found out about his existence, eventually someone would figure out a way to combat him, maybe even figure out planar travel in the process. Then we would be invading planes with tractors and mining for masses of metal and oil.

http://i64.tinypic.com/mwz90h.png

[Barstro]

eventually someone would figure out a way to combat him, maybe even figure out planar travel in the process.

Given that the original question was Wizard vs. Army, I think that "eventually" will not have enough time to occur.

However, Wizard vs. "whatever secret society is left of the government those many years after said battle", then I'll put it at "plausible".

[weckar]

Frankly, math is on the Army's side. Yes, the Wizard can take out many of them at once. However, even at 1000 victims a spell it would take several months to take out the whole army. Plenty to time for any sort of advanced intelligence network to catch up.

[Aharon]

Given that the original question was Wizard vs. Army, I think that "eventually" will not have enough time to occur.

However, Wizard vs. "whatever secret society is left of the government those many years after said battle", then I'll put it at "plausible".

Of course, that's all under the assumption that the fight takes place on Earth, and Earth happens to have natural magic. The closest approximation to "real" physics that DnD can offer would have Earth be on a dead magic plane. That's a difficulty for 3.5 wizards, but not impossible (there are several methods for casting in dead magic zones). I don't know if, and if which, methods to do so were ported over to PF. Without magic, the Wizard is still pretty superhuman (superhuman intelligence, better at combat than most combat specialists,...) but won't be able to beat a whole 3.5 million person army.

[khadgar567]

1. chain gating solars work
2. mind rape fest( aka mind rape until you meet president of china) works
3air mepid simulacra chain not powerful as chain gate solar but still gives infinite man power plus you can replace any one important with it
1 you have enough manpower to open war to army ,
2 you are basicly ilumunati to anyone means silent coup success
3 still works as you can constantly send enough soldiers to field that you win by zerg rush methods

[Eldariel]

Frankly, math is on the Army's side. Yes, the Wizard can take out many of them at once. However, even at 1000 victims a spell it would take several months to take out the whole army. Plenty to time for any sort of advanced intelligence network to catch up.

The deal is, it seems like nothing in existence can meaningfully affect her though. So, what good is intelligence? Particularly if all the people at the top of the chain of command are already dominated, mindraped or worse.

[BWR]

Of course, that's all under the assumption that the fight takes place on Earth, and Earth happens to have natural magic. The closest approximation to "real" physics that DnD can offer would have Earth be on a dead magic plane. That's a difficulty for 3.5 wizards, but not impossible (there are several methods for casting in dead magic zones). I don't know if, and if which, methods to do so were ported over to PF. Without magic, the Wizard is still pretty superhuman (superhuman intelligence, better at combat than most combat specialists,...) but won't be able to beat a whole 3.5 million person army.

So you are interpreting this as 'not-a-wizard' vs. the PRC armed forces?
Wasn't the whole point of the thread an actual PF wizard 20?
Or am I missing something?



1. chain gating solars work
2. mind rape fest( aka mind rape until you meet president of china) works
3air mepid simulacra chain not powerful as chain gate solar but still gives infinite man power plus you can replace any one important with it
1 you have enough manpower to open war to army ,
2 you are basicly ilumunati to anyone means silent coup success
3 still works as you can constantly send enough soldiers to field that you win by zerg rush methods


1. Don't think chain gating will work for a number of reasons (not in the least how you will explain to pinnacles of good why you feel the need to kill 3.5 million people)
2. Pretty sure Mind Rape doesn't exist in PF. Dominate does and you can do some nifty stuff with it
3. 1. I'm pretty sure you can't 'clone' a 'clone', and even if you could it would be infinitely expensive to create an infinite army and merely prohibitively so to make lots of people

[weckar]

Pretty sure wizards have no immunity to nukes - or radioactivity in general... basically, throw a 'damage type' at them that the D&D rule set doesn't provide for.

[Eldariel]

Pretty sure wizards have no immunity to nukes - or radioactivity in general... basically, throw a 'damage type' at them that the D&D rule set doesn't provide for.

They can get overall immunity to damage (e.g. shapechange into a regenerating form, cast favor of the martyr). They can also act while incorporeal, ethereal or such. It's unlikely that a nuke would be holy watery or magical enough to bypass those. Also, d20 nukes only deal like 20d6 damage IIRC (avg. 70); even with nothing she can easily facetank some.

While also being invisible, inaudible and intangible (e.g. Superior Invisibility), so targeting her is also difficult. And even if you do kill one body, a clone will activate elsewhere; unless we can planar travel, there's no way to get to them.

[Eldaran]

War Spell, Favor of the Martyr, Superior Invis, Mind Rape. So much great Pathfinder content...

It's tagged with Patfinder, says PF in the title and main post. How do people mess this up so bad?

[Inevitability]

Let's be fair. What works actually happen is Time Stop > Greater Invisibility > Greater Teleport without error > Dominate Person on the Chinese President, force him to issue the nuclear orders vs... anyone, which sets off Mutually Assured Destruction. Then, Plane Shift to your personal demiplane and go back to reading books.

Reading books? Haven't you heard of use-activated items of Twinned Scholar's Touch?

[Extra Anchovies]

1. Don't think chain gating will work for a number of reasons (not in the least how you will explain to pinnacles of good why you feel the need to kill 3.5 million people)

The Fomorian Titan (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/titan/titan-fomorian) is an 18 HD CE juggernaut with (among other things) CL 20 Wish as a SLA - Gate one of them in, command it to Wish in twenty of its friends, then let the madness commence as the growing horde of murder-giants sweeps the globe.

[Segev]

The truth is that any wizard with sufficient intelligence to be casting 9th level spells is not going to bother taking on, in some sort of full-frontal assault/all-out-war fashion, any major modern military on an Earth sufficiently like the real world as to be recognizable. It would be stupid, profitless, and risky.

No, not because they can't win. They absolutely can. But one freak accident or single slip-up in a moment of distraction, and the wizard could have a defense bypassed, and he still only has mortal levels of hp. Even if he's really lucky (as represented by high-level hp).

But the real reason they wouldn't is because it costs too much, and returns too little. It buys trouble, and little else.

No. A high-level wizard would use his power to take over quietly. The most overt he'd be is to slip in to the heights of power, remove key people to create vacancies, and use his magic to make himself the most obvious person to fill them. Enchantment to earn trust. Evocation to frighten personal armies (the thug-factions within larger organizations). Divination to know what his rivals plan and to plan actions which make him look good with great success. Transmutations to build wealth for bribes and to privately eliminate those who offend him (baleful polymorph would terrify most high-placed bureaucrats, if demonstrated even once).

And that's still being unsubtle.

A subtle wizard would rely more on divination and enchantment than anything else, and would have everybody love and trust him and know all his foes' plans.

In any event, the wizard would be running China, either as the Chairman (if he wanted overt power), or as an "adviser" who always seems to get his way, no matter who sits in the big chair.

And, of course, he could simply use Illusions to replace key figures directly, disguising himself or undead dummies or even just using illusory people, to give orders and speeches and what-have-you.



In short: a 20th level wizard would not BOTHER going to war with a modern military when he could simply insert himself into the power structure that controls it.

[awa]

and if all he's interested in is breaking things, not running things that what self replicating undead is for. Send a couple to all the major cities and they will take care of the rest.

[Segev]

and if all he's interested in is breaking things, not running things that what self replicating undead is for. Send a couple to all the major cities and they will take care of the rest.

Indeed. Create (greater) undead even one Shadow and let it loose in a military base or a major city, and it will cause terror.

Give it explicit orders to create as many spawn as possible (and have them make as many spawn as possible), perhaps via command undead, and it will bring a modern non-magical city to its knees in a couple of days.

[Aharon]

So you are interpreting this as 'not-a-wizard' vs. the PRC armed forces?
Wasn't the whole point of the thread an actual PF wizard 20?
Or am I missing something?


Well, I don't know what ways there are in PF to cast in dead magic areas, as I said. In 3.5, it would result in a somewhat limited, but by no means powerless wizard (depending on interpretation, dead magic might be a subset of limited magic, so that rings of free casting work, there's invoke magic, etc....)
Maybe there are similar methods in PF. Such a scenario would be more interesting than full-powered wizard 20 against the PRC, because he wins, hands down, anyway.

[Inevitability]

To the people suggesting a shadopocalypse, remember that incorporeal creatures must remain within 5 feet of open space at all times. This means a reasonably thick wall can still contain them, meaning humanity could hide in underground shelters and such.

[Segev]

To the people suggesting a shadopocalypse, remember that incorporeal creatures must remain within 5 feet of open space at all times. This means a reasonably thick wall can still contain them, meaning humanity could hide in underground shelters and such.

Sure. But I think that qualifies as "bringing a city to its knees" if you've forced the populace to cower in underground shelters.

[Hecuba]

So there have been tons of threads about a Wizard 20 going up against the US army and such.

But now I want to see what happens if a PF Wizard 20 can go up against the army of the People's Republic of China....

Also no shenanigans and rules abuses, please and thank you.

There are a couple of blatant attack vectors that absolutely, positively require magic to counter. The most blatant is being incorporeal and not subject to holy water (thus bypassing any question of whether real-world holy water is transparent with D&D/PF holy water). Unless they changed it somewhere else, the rules for incorporeality in PF come from the Universal Monster Rules: it explicitly calls out that incorporeal creatures are "immune to all non-magical attack forms."

That means that even the most exotic real-world weapons fall flat. Since a Wizard 20 can both become Incorporeal (for a bit, at least) and introduce other incorporeal foes (and then retreat to safety), the wizard wins even if this comes to a question of main-force (which, for the wizard is unquestionably doing things the hard way).

[Eldan]

To the people suggesting a shadopocalypse, remember that incorporeal creatures must remain within 5 feet of open space at all times. This means a reasonably thick wall can still contain them, meaning humanity could hide in underground shelters and such.

Under ground shelters with doors five feet thick and no air vents, that is.

[dj543210]

People! People! You're overthinking this. A wizard doesn't destroy the army. He subjugates them to his will. And if that doesn't work, then he destroys them!

[BWR]

The Fomorian Titan (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/titan/titan-fomorian) is an 18 HD CE juggernaut with (among other things) CL 20 Wish as a SLA - Gate one of them in, command it to Wish in twenty of its friends, then let the madness commence as the growing horde of murder-giants sweeps the globe.

I think that violates the OP's stipulation about rules abuses.


Well, I don't know what ways there are in PF to cast in dead magic areas, as I said. In 3.5, it would result in a somewhat limited, but by no means powerless wizard (depending on interpretation, dead magic might be a subset of limited magic, so that rings of free casting work, there's invoke magic, etc....)
Maybe there are similar methods in PF. Such a scenario would be more interesting than full-powered wizard 20 against the PRC, because he wins, hands down, anyway.

Ah, so you just went intentionally off topic and I missed it. Sorry, thought either you or I had missed something in the OP.

[Hecuba]

People! People! You're overthinking this.
I don't know about overthinking, but I certainly am choosing the most difficult scenario for the wizard - main-force combat. I'm not doing so because I think it most likely; rather if we can demonstrate that the Wizard wins in the case least favorable to it, then the question is answered fairly definitively.


Ah, so you just went intentionally off topic and I missed it. Sorry, thought either you or I had missed something in the OP.

They do have a point: as he mentioned, there's a fairly good case for assuming that magic shouldn't work normally in our world. But you're right - that changes the question very significantly (though the wizard can probably still get the job done).

[icefractal]

I don't know about overthinking, but I certainly am choosing the most difficult scenario for the wizard - main-force combat. I'm not doing so because I think it most likely; rather if we can demonstrate that the Wizard wins in the case least favorable to it, then the question is answered fairly definitively.That does sound like an interesting question to answer. If trying to destroy the army personally, I think mind-control would still be the way to go, because why waste Fireballs (and tanks would soak up quite a few), when there are tons of weapons free for the taking? Just find whoever's got the highest firepower, Dominate Person to have them turn it on their allies, and repeat.

But if you don't mind having a possibly world-threatening environmental hazard left over, you could lead off with the Shadow trick; that should take care of most of them.

I think it goes without saying that you'd want to be incorporeal or ethereal while doing this. Invisible is not protection enough, with the giant AoE ranges that grenades and missiles have.

[Inevitability]

I think that violates the OP's stipulation about rules abuses.

How is this 'rules abuse'?

[Grollub]

To the people suggesting a shadopocalypse, remember that incorporeal creatures must remain within 5 feet of open space at all times. This means a reasonably thick wall can still contain them, meaning humanity could hide in underground shelters and such.

So basically you've contained the populace to a 10ft wall thick bunker... even if it was FULLY contained/setup.. you've now doomed whoever is in there to being there forever, while you rule the rest of the planet..

And if they do ever come out (which happens in every movie), boom, shadowpocalyse restarts/gets in.

[Inevitability]

Under ground shelters with doors five feet thick and no air vents, that is.


So basically you've contained the populace to a 10ft wall thick bunker... even if it was FULLY contained/setup.. you've now doomed whoever is in there to being there forever, while you rule the rest of the planet..

And if they do ever come out (which happens in every movie), boom, shadowpocalyse restarts/gets in.

I said it was possible, not that it was viable. :smalltongue:

[awa]

you don't really need shadows just wights, they reproduce so fast that in a crowded population center they could get overwhelming numbers to fast for you to do anything about it.
There intelligent ninja zombies

[Âmesang]

I just have one thing to say towards the wizard:

Do not pursue Lü Bu.

Either that or China calls upon Lo Pan and the Three Storms.

[Segev]

I just have one thing to say towards the wizard:

Do not pursue Lü Bu.

Either that or China calls upon Lo Pan and the Three Storms.

Bah. There's no need to pursue Lu Bu. That's what the Invisible Stalker or Ice Assassin is for.

[Inevitability]

you don't really need shadows just wights, they reproduce so fast that in a crowded population center they could get overwhelming numbers to fast for you to do anything about it.
There intelligent ninja zombies

Not sure: wights are basically movie zombies. If there's any fictional apocalypse we're prepared for, it's that one.

A single city may fall, and half a million undead will indeed be problematic, but an apocalypse that can be stopped with a few nukes is no apocalypse at all.

I guess if you somehow wight-infect all population centers of all nuclear powers, you might have a chance, but otherwise modern communications will inform the people with big guns of the wights before they can grow to massive numbers.

[Xar Zarath]

Well, I don't know what ways there are in PF to cast in dead magic areas, as I said. In 3.5, it would result in a somewhat limited, but by no means powerless wizard (depending on interpretation, dead magic might be a subset of limited magic, so that rings of free casting work, there's invoke magic, etc....)
Maybe there are similar methods in PF. Such a scenario would be more interesting than full-powered wizard 20 against the PRC, because he wins, hands down, anyway.

Technically I would consider Earth and the universe its in to have magic. And as for the scenario in this thread, then yes Earth operates normally regarding to magic similar to Golarion in PF for all intents and purposes.

And I will say that although it is not impossible for China's scientists and army RND to figure out magic and specifically wizardry, I would say it would take them a long time as we here on Earth do not know the first thing about wizardry. Think of it as trying to explain an IPhone to someone from the stone age. The mechanical engine to a wooden wheel and all that comparisons.

[awa]

Not sure: wights are basically movie zombies. If there's any fictional apocalypse we're prepared for, it's that one.

A single city may fall, and half a million undead will indeed be problematic, but an apocalypse that can be stopped with a few nukes is no apocalypse at all.

I guess if you somehow wight-infect all population centers of all nuclear powers, you might have a chance, but otherwise modern communications will inform the people with big guns of the wights before they can grow to massive numbers.

you forget Wight's are intelligent and have a +16 modifier to stealth, a 15 charisma and a good intimidate score.

The wights are smart enough to spread out rapidly even if the wizard is to lazy to seed them himself. As they are undead they can travel underwater easily allowing them to reach multiple cities undetected and they can intimidate people into giving them rides in cars or just get on trains or busses wearing a surgical mask and hooded sweater, then once they get to new locations one Wight sneaks about killing people at night in an ever growing horde some of whom go off to visit new locations, and with there stealth and intellect they can choose to start out only attacking people on their own so with no bodies they can get a large force before people even know there's a problem much less one justifying nuclear weapons. Sure you can nuke a city but does that actually help you? Now you have to deal with radioactive fall out which does not harm the undead and remember our goal is not the world jut the Chinese army if they have to wipe most of their own cities off the map we still win.

All our plans for fighting zombies assume were smarter then they are but these guys have above average mental stats, they can use phones and spread disinformation, they can trick people into thinking they can be reasoned with, they can kidnap peoples families and intimidate (+9 modifier) them into acting against mankind hiding their true nature and goals, They can use stolen keys and id cards to gain stealthy access to buildings. They can read manuals, these are zombies that if you don't stop them soon enough might be launching nukes at you! And if the wights can launch one nuke at the usa or Russia that's a win for the wizard because our goal is destroying china not making undead.

[Quertus]

War Spell, Favor of the Martyr, Superior Invis, Mind Rape. So much great Pathfinder content...

It's tagged with Patfinder, says PF in the title and main post. How do people mess this up so bad?

Do Pathfinder wizards not have the option to invent new spells via spell research? Or are all PF wizards too dumb to research such useful spells?


So basically you've contained the populace to a 10ft wall thick bunker... even if it was FULLY contained/setup.. you've now doomed whoever is in there to being there forever, while you rule the rest of the planet..

And if they do ever come out (which happens in every movie), boom, shadowpocalyse restarts/gets in.

I'm not familiar with pf rules, but if they have to stay within 5' of open area, wouldn't the walls need to be 15' thick? Otherwise, the first 5' is within 5' of the outside, and the second 5' is within 5' of the inside. Or is that not how it works?

[Tohsaka Rin]

Wights are the Special Forces of undead, really.

...I was going to bed, but after that thought, a cup of coffee and some video games sounds like a better alternative. Thanks a lot, brain. :smallannoyed:

[Liquor Box]

And I will say that although it is not impossible for China's scientists and army RND to figure out magic and specifically wizardry, I would say it would take them a long time as we here on Earth do not know the first thing about wizardry. Think of it as trying to explain an IPhone to someone from the stone age. The mechanical engine to a wooden wheel and all that comparisons.

I don't even think it has to be magic. If the concepts of DnD existed in the real world (such as multiple planes) there is every chance that humanity would have found a technological way to exploit them.

After all, people are assuming that the wizard would be able to know about things that don't exist in a DnD world (like nuclear weapons, at least sufficient to commandeer them).

It's an impossible question to answer because of the lack of compatability between real world science and DnD magic.

[ryu]

I don't even think it has to be magic. If the concepts of DnD existed in the real world (such as multiple planes) there is every chance that humanity would have found a technological way to exploit them.

After all, people are assuming that the wizard would be able to know about things that don't exist in a DnD world (like nuclear weapons, at least sufficient to commandeer them).

It's an impossible question to answer because of the lack of compatability between real world science and DnD magic.

The wizard has divinations. Do we have divinations? That's what I thought.

[Liquor Box]

The wizard has divinations. Do we have divinations? That's what I thought.

How would divinations help him? If nuclear weapons existed in his universe, presumably he could learn about them from a book. Likewise if plane shifting existed in our universe presumable we could learn about it from a book, and quite possible develop a solution to it.

[awa]

How would divinations help him? If nuclear weapons existed in his universe, presumably he could learn about them from a book. Likewise if plane shifting existed in our universe presumable we could learn about it from a book, and quite possible develop a solution to it.

I don't think that's a fair comparison the wizard only needs to know nukes exist which is common knowledge on our world. While for china to do something with it they would need to figure out how it works something very few people in the wizards world can do. divination can also find out about stuff in other universe.

[ryu]

How would divinations help him? If nuclear weapons existed in his universe, presumably he could learn about them from a book. Likewise if plane shifting existed in our universe presumable we could learn about it from a book, and quite possible develop a solution to it.

The thing about books? They require someone who has already gained the information from something that isn't a non-existent book to write it down. For this reason, while they're rather astoundingly useful at preserving information, they're rather useless for discovering information the civilization itself doesn't have.

[Liquor Box]

The thing about books? They require someone who has already gained the information from something that isn't a non-existent book to write it down. For this reason, while they're rather astoundingly useful at preserving information, they're rather useless for discovering information the civilization itself doesn't have.

Thats not true. They are great for discovering information the civilisation does not have, so long as those books can be obtained from another civilisation.

If the scenario is that we are creating an intersection between the modern world and the DnD world, then it is reasonable to assume the wizard has knowledge of nuclear weapons (and all the other modern world things) and that the Chinese have knowledge of different planes (and other things inherent to DnD).

I suppose a different scenario might be proposed - where the Chinese discover a way to transfer their army to a DnD setting or vice versa.

[ryu]

Thats not true. They are great for discovering information the civilisation does not have, so long as those books can be obtained from another civilisation.

If the scenario is that we are creating an intersection between the modern world and the DnD world, then it is reasonable to assume the wizard has knowledge of nuclear weapons (and all the other modern world things) and that the Chinese have knowledge of different planes (and other things inherent to DnD).

I suppose a different scenario might be proposed - where the Chinese discover a way to transfer their army to a DnD setting or vice versa.

Intersection of worlds? What intersection of worlds? The wizard decided to shift worlds one day, then he did. Then he made a nice safe, undetectable haven and started divining. Books never enter the equation.

[Liquor Box]

I don't think that's a fair comparison the wizard only needs to know nukes exist which is common knowledge on our world. While for china to do something with it they would need to figure out how it works something very few people in the wizards world can do. divination can also find out about stuff in other universe.

I was assuming the existence of things (like nukes or planes etc) that are usually particular to the real world or DnD would actually be common knowledge to both. It is true that in this case the Chinese would have to take the extra step of figuring out a technological way of manipulating planes (or whatever), but in such circumstances I don't think it is unreasonable to think they may do so. Much like I don't think it unreasonable that wizards would have researched spells that could resist damage types that don't exist in DnD (like radiation).

Even if that were not the scenario I don't think it that different. Like the existence of nukes in our world, the existence of other planes is pretty common knowledge in DnD (at least I always considered it so). The knowledge of how to manipulate the planes (planeshift) is limited in DnD, but so is knowledge of how to activate and fire nukes in the real world.

[AvatarVecna]

I suppose a different scenario might be proposed - where the Chinese discover a way to transfer their army to a DnD setting or vice versa.

Like, think with portals type science? Or via a Gate spell? Because if we're assuming the Chinese government figured out magic, this fight gets a lot different: namely, it becomes "can a small army of wizards of varying level who have no cultural experience with high-tier combat defeat a Wizard 20 who is familiar with high-tier tactics due to having lived in a world with magic their entire life?", and the answer to that question is largely dependent on how much TO is acceptable and how much is going too far. The reason the original scenario is useful for discussion is because it's taking two vaguely-understood forces (the Chinese army, as it exists in our world, and a Wizard 20). Giving the Chinese army magic introduces a variable of "how would China react to the existence of magic, and what tactics/builds would they make use of upon discovering it?"

Alternatively, the scientific portal idea basically ends with an army of real-world people (so, level 6 at the highest, generally) assaulting the established fortress of a Wizard 20 (let's assume it's even on the wizard's private demiplane, and science accomplished what magic couldn't and got a portal there). What happens from here is largely dependent on what kind of technology the Chinese army can bring to bear without risk to their own troops (they could nuke the wizard's fortress, but they would probably prefer to nuke it when they don't have an army assaulting it), how those weapons translate into PF mechanics (what kind of damage does a nuke deal, what's the AoE, how might it affect/be affected by other mechanics, etc), and what defenses the Wizard has on his permanent stronghold. That could certainly be an interesting question, with the only really uncertain part being whether the mechanics ascribed to their weaponry are fair within the system. My general assumption would be that a Wizard's fortress would be able to endure quite a lengthy siege by an army of lvl 6 or lower characters, but if they have portal technology, maybe there's other stuff that it's reasonable for them to have?

[Liquor Box]

Intersection of worlds? What intersection of worlds? The wizard decided to shift worlds one day, then he did. Then he made a nice safe, undetectable haven and started divining. Books never enter the equation.

Or, the wizard decided to shift worlds one day, then he did. But he shifted to a world where magic doesn't exist. He got beaten up because he looked silly in his pointy hat and robes.

Pretty easy really.

[AvatarVecna]

Or, the wizard decided to shift worlds one day, then he did. But he shifted to a world where magic doesn't exist. He got beaten up because he looked silly in his pointy hat and robes.

Pretty easy really.

Without checking the actual rules on the matter (so I could be entirely wrong on this), I'm pretty sure you can't travel to a dead magic zone with magic any mroe than you could travel out of a dead magic zone with magic. I assume both ends need to be areas magic can take place in if you're wanting to magically travel between them. In any case, "Wizard travels to dead magic world, auto-loses because he doesn't have magic anymore", the question is pretty pointless.

[ryu]

I was assuming the existence of things (like nukes or planes etc) that are usually particular to the real world or DnD would actually be common knowledge to both. It is true that in this case the Chinese would have to take the extra step of figuring out a technological way of manipulating planes (or whatever), but in such circumstances I don't think it is unreasonable to think they may do so. Much like I don't think it unreasonable that wizards would have researched spells that could resist damage types that don't exist in DnD (like radiation).

Even if that were not the scenario I don't think it that different. Like the existence of nukes in our world, the existence of other planes is pretty common knowledge in DnD (at least I always considered it so). The knowledge of how to manipulate the planes (planeshift) is limited in DnD, but so is knowledge of how to activate and fire nukes in the real world.

The problem with that scenario is that we're bound by little things called physical laws. The wizard is bound by the rules of magic. Even in PF where the rules of magic are a bit less fast and loose, said rules are still a lot more free than physical laws. Besides we weren't presented weird, magitek hybrid wizard 20, versus weird magitek hybrid chinese military. We were presented wizard 20 versus chinese military. One of these things has a method of learning about the other built into what it is. The other doesn't.

[Liquor Box]

Without checking the actual rules on the matter (so I could be entirely wrong on this), I'm pretty sure you can't travel to a dead magic zone with magic any mroe than you could travel out of a dead magic zone with magic. I assume both ends need to be areas magic can take place in if you're wanting to magically travel between them. In any case, "Wizard travels to dead magic world, auto-loses because he doesn't have magic anymore", the question is pretty pointless.

Right, so you do need some sort of intersection between the DnD world (where magic exists) and the real world (where it ordinarily does not) for this confrontation to happen. Unless the Chinese discover a technological way to travel to the DnD world.

[ryu]

Right, so you do need some sort of intersection between the DnD world (where magic exists) and the real world (where it ordinarily does not) for this confrontation to happen. Unless the Chinese discover a technological way to travel to the DnD world.

And how, on earth, would you ever be able to state that with certainty? Proving negatives is impossible.

[Liquor Box]

Like, think with portals type science? Or via a Gate spell? Because if we're assuming the Chinese government figured out magic, this fight gets a lot different: namely, it becomes "can a small army of wizards of varying level who have no cultural experience with high-tier combat defeat a Wizard 20 who is familiar with high-tier tactics due to having lived in a world with magic their entire life?", and the answer to that question is largely dependent on how much TO is acceptable and how much is going too far. The reason the original scenario is useful for discussion is because it's taking two vaguely-understood forces (the Chinese army, as it exists in our world, and a Wizard 20). Giving the Chinese army magic introduces a variable of "how would China react to the existence of magic, and what tactics/builds would they make use of upon discovering it?"

Alternatively, the scientific portal idea basically ends with an army of real-world people (so, level 6 at the highest, generally) assaulting the established fortress of a Wizard 20 (let's assume it's even on the wizard's private demiplane, and science accomplished what magic couldn't and got a portal there). What happens from here is largely dependent on what kind of technology the Chinese army can bring to bear without risk to their own troops (they could nuke the wizard's fortress, but they would probably prefer to nuke it when they don't have an army assaulting it), how those weapons translate into PF mechanics (what kind of damage does a nuke deal, what's the AoE, how might it affect/be affected by other mechanics, etc), and what defenses the Wizard has on his permanent stronghold. That could certainly be an interesting question, with the only really uncertain part being whether the mechanics ascribed to their weaponry are fair within the system. My general assumption would be that a Wizard's fortress would be able to endure quite a lengthy siege by an army of lvl 6 or lower characters, but if they have portal technology, maybe there's other stuff that it's reasonable for them to have?

I don't think I proposed that the Chinese army would be able to do magic at all.

I suggested that if planes actually existed like they do in the DnD world, it is not implausible that the Chinese would have a technological way to manipulate them. This may (or may not) have a similar mechanical effect to the way a wizard manipulates them, but it is by no means magic.

[Liquor Box]

And how, on earth, would you ever be able to state that with certainty? Proving negatives is impossible.

We don't require certainty in most discussions, an acceptable degree of accuracy is sufficient. If we did, we would be able to talk about very little - because most of what we talk about is not axiomatically certain.

Proving negative to an acceptable degree is not at all impossible. I can prove to myself to an acceptable degree that you are not in this room with me (a negative) because I cannot see you, and I am confident that I would be able to see you if you were here.

Do you believe that magic exists in the real world?

[awa]

The wizard can gain access to advance tech easily, our technology (and china's)for the most part can be used by anyone, magic on the other hand can only be used by incredibly exceptional individuals. Not to mention one dominate and now they work for you. Combined with superior information gathering ability, the odd of the wizard commanding modern technology far exceed our ability to invent new forms of science fast enough to be of any use before the army is wiped out or co-opted etc.

[ryu]

We don't require certainty in most discussions, an acceptable degree of accuracy is sufficient. If we did, we would be able to talk about very little - because most of what we talk about is not axiomatically certain.

Proving negative to an acceptable degree is not at all impossible. I can prove to myself to an acceptable degree that you are not in this room with me (a negative) because I cannot see you, and I am confident that I would be able to see you if you were here.

Do you believe that magic exists in the real world?

Define magic, and for that matter give conclusive proof about the dimensional limits of reality.

[AvatarVecna]

To the best of my knowledge, magic is not a real thing in the dimension that this conversation is taking place in. Whether this lack of proof of magic is due to this dimension being a dead magic zone, is due to D&D-esque deities ensuring no magical knowledge is available in this dimension, or is due to existing mages in this dimension keeping knowledge that magic is a real thing in our world locked away from the general public is a triple combo of religion, politics, and conspiracy theories, all of which I'm pretty sure are things the mods don't want us discussing.

The standard operating procedure for a thread like this (because of course it comes up with depressing regularity) is that our world has magic, but does not have knowledge of magic, so only the wizard can use it, and we have to use technology to resist the wizard (which inevitably fails because wizards are broken bull****). A more interesting question, but one that's significantly harder to answer with any degree of accuracy and confidence, is what would happen if our world has magic but no magical knowledge, and the introduction of the wizard to our world sends the various governments in search of how to weaponize this "magic". How the various governments/nations would go about learning enough magic to take down an angry Wizard 20 while avoiding getting destroyed by that wizard would make an interesting campaign concept, but I'm unsure of how successful such a thing would be IRL (since RL animals likely can't provide a ton of XP, due to CR being limited to like 11 or something with the Giant Squid, and that likely not being enough to get to 20th lvl yourself).

I guess my point is this: there's a lot of interesting directions the "wizard in our world" scenario could go in, but "our world has no magic so the wizard is just a commoner now" is kind of a boring one.

[Xar Zarath]

...They require someone who has already gained the information from something that isn't a non-existent...useless for discovering information the civilization itself doesn't have.


...our world has magic, but does not have knowledge of magic, so only the wizard can use it...world has magic but no magical knowledge...

This. Forgive me if I chopped it to bits but my previous point may not have been clear enough for everyone. Essentially for this scenario I consider that yes, our world has magic. That is how a Wizard 20 can operate in our world for the destroy army scenario.

While our world does have magic, the knowledge that can manipulate said magic into performing wondrous feats like what the Wizard does is non-existent. Because of that we don't know magic. We simply don't have the input or even some scrap of magic runes by which we could reverse engineer and discover a way to master magic.

Having said that, there are also reputedly magical texts and real life tomes which could prove useful in the fight against the Wizard but this expands the scenario even further. After all some of these tomes are in the care of other countries and such and may not feel helpful towards the Chinese army since the Wizard is only bent on destroying them and no one else.

[ryu]

This. Forgive me if I chopped it to bits but my previous point may not have been clear enough for everyone. Essentially for this scenario I consider that yes, our world has magic. That is how a Wizard 20 can operate in our world for the destroy army scenario.

While our world does have magic, the knowledge that can manipulate said magic into performing wondrous feats like what the Wizard does is non-existent. Because of that we don't know magic. We simply don't have the input or even some scrap of magic runes by which we could reverse engineer and discover a way to master magic.

Having said that, there are also reputedly magical texts and real life tomes which could prove useful in the fight against the Wizard but this expands the scenario even further. After all some of these tomes are in the care of other countries and such and may not feel helpful towards the Chinese army since the Wizard is only bent on destroying them and no one else.

There's also the possibility of the wizard finding them in divination and simply confiscating them as a first move. Legitimately workable magic texts are more dangerous in this scenario than fully anything else on the planet. Even that. Especially that.

[Liquor Box]

The wizard can gain access to advance tech easily, our technology (and china's)for the most part can be used by anyone, magic on the other hand can only be used by incredibly exceptional individuals. Not to mention one dominate and now they work for you. Combined with superior information gathering ability, the odd of the wizard commanding modern technology far exceed our ability to invent new forms of science fast enough to be of any use before the army is wiped out or co-opted etc.

Do you mean he can gain access to the technology itself - like building nuclear weapons? Or do you mean he can access requisite information about how it works?

I haven't suggested that China would ever use magic. Only that, if there were DnD concepts such as magic and planes in the universe China existed in, China may well have developed technological means (that are themselves not at all magic) to manipulate those concepts.

[Liquor Box]

Define magic, and for that matter give conclusive proof about the dimensional limits of reality.

Sure, I should have better defined magic - for the purposes of this discussion it is Arcane Magic that is relevant. Which is a good thing since talking about whether divine magic exists in the real world probably violates forum rules.

Do you think arcane magic, of the type used by wizards in 3.5 exists in the real world?

[Liquor Box]

To the best of my knowledge, magic is not a real thing in the dimension that this conversation is taking place in. Whether this lack of proof of magic is due to this dimension being a dead magic zone, is due to D&D-esque deities ensuring no magical knowledge is available in this dimension, or is due to existing mages in this dimension keeping knowledge that magic is a real thing in our world locked away from the general public is a triple combo of religion, politics, and conspiracy theories, all of which I'm pretty sure are things the mods don't want us discussing.

The standard operating procedure for a thread like this (because of course it comes up with depressing regularity) is that our world has magic, but does not have knowledge of magic, so only the wizard can use it, and we have to use technology to resist the wizard (which inevitably fails because wizards are broken bull****). A more interesting question, but one that's significantly harder to answer with any degree of accuracy and confidence, is what would happen if our world has magic but no magical knowledge, and the introduction of the wizard to our world sends the various governments in search of how to weaponize this "magic". How the various governments/nations would go about learning enough magic to take down an angry Wizard 20 while avoiding getting destroyed by that wizard would make an interesting campaign concept, but I'm unsure of how successful such a thing would be IRL (since RL animals likely can't provide a ton of XP, due to CR being limited to like 11 or something with the Giant Squid, and that likely not being enough to get to 20th lvl yourself).

I guess my point is this: there's a lot of interesting directions the "wizard in our world" scenario could go in, but "our world has no magic so the wizard is just a commoner now" is kind of a boring one.

I wasn't aware that there was a generally accepted scenario where this encounter took place, which meant that magic existed in this world but real world folk had no knowledge of it.

The scenario I was assuming was closer to the bolded part of your quote. Where the wizard and the Chinese army both existed in a universe where there was magic and knew about the magic (although, like real world Chinese, the Chinese army has not wizards). The Chinese would therefore have the opportunity to learn about and manipulate the forces in that universe that had been introduced by the DnD universe (and specifically multiple planes) in the same way that the wizard would have the opportunity to learn about the like of nuclear weapons, and use spells like dominate to potentially take advantage of those.

[ryu]

Sure, I should have better defined magic - for the purposes of this discussion it is Arcane Magic that is relevant. Which is a good thing since talking about whether divine magic exists in the real world probably violates forum rules.

Do you think arcane magic, of the type used by wizards in 3.5 exists in the real world?

That is extremely specific and only has any real likelihood of truth in a reality with an infinite or arbitrarily large number of dimensions we've yet to access, or if reality experiences an a cycle of reseting with randomized rules with no end visible within the system.

[Liquor Box]

This. Forgive me if I chopped it to bits but my previous point may not have been clear enough for everyone. Essentially for this scenario I consider that yes, our world has magic. That is how a Wizard 20 can operate in our world for the destroy army scenario.

While our world does have magic, the knowledge that can manipulate said magic into performing wondrous feats like what the Wizard does is non-existent. Because of that we don't know magic. We simply don't have the input or even some scrap of magic runes by which we could reverse engineer and discover a way to master magic.

Having said that, there are also reputedly magical texts and real life tomes which could prove useful in the fight against the Wizard but this expands the scenario even further. After all some of these tomes are in the care of other countries and such and may not feel helpful towards the Chinese army since the Wizard is only bent on destroying them and no one else.

Thanks for clarifying the sceanrio. As I said, I hadn't know there was a pre-understood scenario for this. yes, the wizard would have an advantage if we changed the environment to suit him

What happens where there is a conflict between real world physics and magic? For example, in the real world if human flesh is made hot enough (with oxygen etc) it burns, which conflicts with human flesh subject to some magical fire resistance or immunity. I presume in that instance the magic prevails?

[Liquor Box]

That is extremely specific and only has any real likelihood of truth in a reality with an infinite or arbitrarily large number of dimensions we've yet to access, or if reality experiences an a cycle of reseting with randomized rules with no end visible within the system.

Well, arcane magic is a specific as it needs to be to be of any utility to the wizard. If divine magic exists on our world, it wouldn't be of any use to the wizard.

If that magic did exist on another dimension (lets face it, probably not) it would not be much use to the wizard in this dimension.

[ryu]

Well, arcane magic is a specific as it needs to be to be of any utility to the wizard. If divine magic exists on our world, it wouldn't be of any use to the wizard.

If that magic did exist on another dimension (lets face it, probably not) it would not be much use to the wizard in this dimension.

Not specific within the categories of D&D. Specific within the realms of defined supernatural in general. Arcane D&D magic is a very, VERY, particular subset of weird we wouldn't know actually worked if it did exist here.

[Liquor Box]

Not specific within the categories of D&D. Specific within the realms of defined supernatural in general. Arcane D&D magic is a very, VERY, particular subset of weird we wouldn't know actually worked if it did exist here.

If it did work here, I would probably be a wizard.

[ryu]

If it did work here, I would probably be a wizard.

Do you have any idea how many people aspire to protagonist roles of ultimate power? I legitimately doubt you'd find a single person not interested in being a wizard if study based arcane magic was provably a thing.

[Barstro]

I legitimately doubt you'd find a single person not interested in being a wizard if study based arcane magic was provably a thing.
Hard enough finding someone wanting to graduate if studying math was provably a thing.

No, in a world where magic is real, the masses will still idolize and strive to be athletes.

[khadgar567]

Hard enough finding someone wanting to graduate if studying math was provably a thing.

No, in a world where magic is real, the masses will still idolize and strive to be athletes.
talk for yourself mate I probably go sphere caster to be honest much more understandable then current education system

[Extra Anchovies]

Hard enough finding someone wanting to graduate if studying math was provably a thing.

No, in a world where magic is real, the masses will still idolize and strive to be athletes.

#$@&ing barbarians, getting all the full-color cover art while we're relegated to black-and-white in the spells chapter...

[ryu]

Hard enough finding someone wanting to graduate if studying math was provably a thing.

No, in a world where magic is real, the masses will still idolize and strive to be athletes.

But, but high tier wizardry is simultaneously eternal life, infinite power, more resources than the richest people to exist on our planet, and if no one else is similarly powerful the freedom to do literally anything and everything you want with minimal real consequences... And of course the ability to spread all of this good fortune to anyone you care about. If I were to bare witness to that I'd double up on my wizardry and go the way of farnsworth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIWHMb3JxmE

[awa]

if wizardry is something that can just be learned not requiring any kind of rare talent then even at the lowest levels its world changing. just mending and prestidigitation would be incredibly useful for working with extremely delicate things.

[Gnaeus]

But, but high tier wizardry is simultaneously eternal life, infinite power, more resources than the richest people to exist on our planet, and if no one else is similarly powerful the freedom to do literally anything and everything you want with minimal real consequences... And of course the ability to spread all of this good fortune to anyone you care about. If I were to bare witness to that I'd double up on my wizardry

Ok, but how many wizards (not including sorcerers) manage that level of power? In Faerun or Forgotten Realms, where they have lots of advantages, like teachers and magic books and magocracies like Thay that push every remotely talented person in that direction? Then remove all the ones from prior generations who are prolonging their lives magically? Maybe a couple dozen a generation with all those advantages? You would statistically have a better chance of winning a Nobel prize or becoming a tech billionaire. And really, the difference in power between a wizard 20 and a tech giant with $12 billion to spend on magic stuff is pretty minimal. And yet, the % of the population which is actively trying to be Bill Gates or Elon Musk is pretty low.

[ryu]

Ok, but how many wizards (not including sorcerers) manage that level of power? In Faerun or Forgotten Realms, where they have lots of advantages, like teachers and magic books and magocracies like Thay that push every remotely talented person in that direction? Then remove all the ones from prior generations who are prolonging their lives magically? Maybe a couple dozen a generation with all those advantages? You would statistically have a better chance of winning a Nobel prize or becoming a tech billionaire. And really, the difference in power between a wizard 20 and a tech giant with $12 billion to spend on magic stuff is pretty minimal. And yet, the % of the population which is actively trying to be Bill Gates or Elon Musk is pretty low.

Except wizard 10 has access to most of the good tricks in one form or another anyway, all published settings unilaterally assume the general population is made of the kind of gibbering idiot where not even level zero spells have been fully commodified thus leaving the setting standard medieval without reason, Standard settings lacked near universally available knowledge of what lives where and reliable methods of finding the relatively dangerous stuff to hunt besides wandering into it, and of course doesn't even recognize the sheer skew towards magic classes due to the fact that magic is good for things that aren't stabbing.

[Segev]

The spirit of this question is fairly obviously that a wizard, with powers heretofore unknown on Earth, arrives on Earth as Earth is at the moment we're discussing the problem. This means that any situation which makes it so that Earth-science has discovered "magic" and found ways to exploit it prior to now is a violation of the spirit of the question. It also means any situation which makes the wizard lack his magical powers violates the spirit of the question.

If you want to answer the questions as to what's possible and who can do what, I propose the following:

The wizard arrives at the precise moment when the laws of our physical universe alter to permit him to use exactly the kind of magic he has, while retaining full functionality of our existing technology and understanding of the science behind it.

If people of Earth start learning magic, they'll find it works, and we can research ways to exploit it. If the wizard chooses to use any Earth-based technology, it continues to work just fine. Any conflicts are resolved by some process (call it "magic") which enables things to work as one might expect without having to invalidate capabilities of Earthlings or of the wizard.

But the level 20 wizard is the only level 20 wizard around for QUITE some time, as it takes a while to learn magic and get to level 20.

[Barstro]

But the level 20 wizard is the only level 20 wizard around for QUITE some time, as it takes a while to learn magic and get to level 20.

Since nothing has changed with the world other than learning from those who have come before us, cavemen had just as much access to nuclear power as the common man has access to magic.
There are level 20 wizards in DnD because they have been researching for centuries (and possibly had the gods helping them). I'd put "takes a while to learn" at a few generations unless someone can make a decent argument for how computers can help in the research.

Similarly, unless the Wizard is able to convince others to teach him about mundane weapons of war, I'd think he would fail to grasp nuclear weapons or even basic aircraft.

EDIT: and if we're bringing DnD training into it; where are the earthlings going to find enough fodder to kill in order to level? We don't have goblins. Our greatest chance at survival is that gold is so expensive that the Wizard will have trouble finding enough things to act as Materials for powerful spells.

[Gnaeus]

Since nothing has changed with the world other than learning from those who have come before us, cavemen had just as much access to nuclear power as the common man has access to magic.
There are level 20 wizards in DnD because they have been researching for centuries (and possibly had the gods helping them). I'd put "takes a while to learn" at a few generations unless someone can make a decent argument for how computers can help in the research.

Similarly, unless the Wizard is able to convince others to teach him about mundane weapons of war, I'd think he would fail to grasp nuclear weapons or even basic aircraft.

Yes, but:
1. Any remotely optimized wizard is a super-genius with magical items further enhancing his brain.
2. Convincing natives to teach him things is brutally simple in lots of easy ways.

[Barstro]

Yes, but:
1. Any remotely optimized wizard is a super-genius with magical items further enhancing his brain.
2. Convincing natives to teach him things is brutally simple in lots of easy ways.

I wasn't so concerned about the Wizard's ability to learn. It's more about the Wizard caring to learn. Until a nuke goes off, he has no reason to comprehend the existence or power. Without knowing that it exists, there is no reason to know anything about it.

The time taken to learn about nukes (assuming he cares) would be better spent flinging spells around. The only way I see the Wizard actually using any of our mundane things is because of opportunistic toadies wanting to latch onto anything of power. THOSE bottom feeders will gladly either explain to him, or else receive his blessing to just do it on their own.

None of the above applies to us learning magic, though. There is no reason for the Wizard to take time out to teach it to anybody and even less reason than that for him to want any of us to learn.

[AvatarVecna]

and if we're bringing DnD training into it; where are the earthlings going to find enough fodder to kill in order to level? We don't have goblins.

Animals. In a previous thread along these same lines, where the question devolved into "a Wizard 1 from D&D world appears on Earth", I proposed that the wizard would use magic in secret, but would mostly kill things with hunting rifles. Hunting licenses give them a good reason to get into fights with moderately difficult-to-defeat animals, and modern Earth has developed a lot of ways to kill things without magic. Once the wizard is high enough level to Polymorph, he can do away with the hunting licenses and start poaching bigger creatures that are more threatening (and tend to be rarer). Eventually he can graduate to hunting down Giant Squids, which will see him top out somewhere around lvl 18-19. Presumably, at least a small portion of IRL people could do the same, assuming that the general population figured out that killing things would give them XP (the nerds would probably make the connection first, for obvious reasons). At this point, the world could very well descend into anarchy as people seek out other people to kill as well (since other people can level up, they'd actually be more threatening than animals usually).

[Gnaeus]

I wasn't so concerned about the Wizard's ability to learn. It's more about the Wizard caring to learn. Until a nuke goes off, he has no reason to comprehend the existence or power. Without knowing that it exists, there is no reason to know anything about it.

The time taken to learn about nukes (assuming he cares) would be better spent flinging spells around. The only way I see the Wizard actually using any of our mundane things is because of opportunistic toadies wanting to latch onto anything of power. THOSE bottom feeders will gladly either explain to him, or else receive his blessing to just do it on their own.

None of the above applies to us learning magic, though. There is no reason for the Wizard to take time out to teach it to anybody and even less reason than that for him to want any of us to learn.

I would think that before any wizard 20 with a 26+ Int goes all barbarian and starts throwing spells at a million man army, he would want to know what kind of weapons they had, how they were organized, etc. He probably didn't get to be a wizard 20 without understanding at least the basics of opposition research. He doesn't know the Chinese army doesn't have a legion of Solars until he asks. Practically speaking, this may start with a commune or contact higher plane with a question like "do my enemies possess the ability to threaten my existence". Of course, the answer may be "no" and he may find out about nukes when his astral projection gets blasted. But either way, he will know about them long before they can harm him.

[Eldariel]

This is applicable in any scenario with a character of even just average intellect (indeed, the idea stands already in Sun Tzu's Art of War): The first thing you do when thrown into an unexpected or unknown situation is to assess everything you know, everything you don't know and how to learn what you need to know to make good decisions. Trace all the knowledge you can, divine what you're missing and if desired, dominate some locals into unveiling all their relevant knowledge. In any event, a Wizard has no reason to make their presence known until they're ready to act. That's half the fight in any normal D&D 3.5 fight too - you must always know your capabilities, and learn your opponents'. If you can do that without your opponent being able to do the same, you should be winning basically always (or realise that you have no chance of victory and thus avoid provoking your target in the first place). That is, if you start preparations against a target without the target being aware of you, you should win.

In this scenario it seems a foregone conclusion that the Wizard will not become a known quality to the Army until she is ready; the scenario is the Wizard being whisked into this world and wanting to destroy the Chinese army after all. Thus, the Wizard will have all the time in the world to find out everything about the Army, then infiltrate the chain of command, dominate some key people and have China nuke itself or whatever. Not that it matters so much; if the Wizard knows their enemy lacks interplanar travel, she'll have all the time in the world in any scenario. Though really, I have a hard time seeing why a Wizard would want to destroy any armies or whatever; I'd rather be a humanitarian, bring about a new age of prosperity in Earth, kickstart space colonization, provide eternal life and perhaps rewrite the brains of some annoying individuals (of course, the beauty of being a God is that you can indeed rebuild the world in your image; sucks to be the world if that isn't a pretty image, but I'd certainly go along with it).

[Segev]

Since nothing has changed with the world other than learning from those who have come before us, cavemen had just as much access to nuclear power as the common man has access to magic.
There are level 20 wizards in DnD because they have been researching for centuries (and possibly had the gods helping them). I'd put "takes a while to learn" at a few generations unless someone can make a decent argument for how computers can help in the research.

Similarly, unless the Wizard is able to convince others to teach him about mundane weapons of war, I'd think he would fail to grasp nuclear weapons or even basic aircraft.

EDIT: and if we're bringing DnD training into it; where are the earthlings going to find enough fodder to kill in order to level? We don't have goblins. Our greatest chance at survival is that gold is so expensive that the Wizard will have trouble finding enough things to act as Materials for powerful spells.

Knowing something is possible goes a long way to jump-starting learning how to do it, but I was more leaving room for somebody to learn by either studying the wizard, studying his works, or by out-and-out apprenticing to him.

And the wizard probably only cares about nukes and other modern tech as much as you or I do: how do you use it, and how do you stay safe from it? What's its radius of effect? Range? How is it targeted?

But if he wants to learn, he is a super-genius who can magically compel people to teach him. Or charm them. Or just fool them into thinking he's a smart but backwards individual.

All of this is largely beside the point; my point was that we should be faithful to the spirit of the question, and assume that the wizard is bringing his magical powers to bear in a world otherwise-indistinguishable from our own, and see how that works out for him and the world.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Well, I don't know what ways there are in PF to cast in dead magic areas, as I said. In 3.5, it would result in a somewhat limited, but by no means powerless wizard (depending on interpretation, dead magic might be a subset of limited magic, so that rings of free casting work, there's invoke magic, etc....)With some planning and forethought (which 3.5 wizards are known for and can do very easily), planting an oak tree on a plane with the enhanced magic trait, creating an acorn of far travel (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040710a) with a nonmagical device, from Ravenloft: Legacy of the Blood, and keeping it on his person would allow him to completely ignore the dead magic trait after he 'ported in. He just needs to make sure the plane is timeless in regards to magic, so its duration (and that of all of his other buffs) will never run out.


There are a couple of blatant attack vectors that absolutely, positively require magic to counter. The most blatant is being incorporeal and not subject to holy water (thus bypassing any question of whether real-world holy water is transparent with D&D/PF holy water).It's not. D&D holy water is created via magic. Real world "holy water" is just tap water that someone lies about.

[Segev]

It's not. D&D holy water is created via magic. Real world "holy water" is just tap water that someone lies about.

Let's please not troll in ways that violate the forum rules. Claiming that all holy water is a lie is attacking people's religious beliefs.

Also, D&D holy water isn't pure water; it has silver dust in it, I believe. I am not sure whether various religions on Earth require ingredients other than water for their holy water.

I know my own faith doesn't have special "holy" water; we just bless it before we take it as part of the sacrament (the other part being bread). We do have consecrated oil; it's simple vegetable oil over which a specific prayer is said by a priesthood holder while the oil is in an open container of any sort. We then use it for anointing if we need to; some blessings require it. But there are no special properties about it, chemically, to my knowledge.
That said, it's again, a matter of faith whether you believe it does anything differently than unconsecrated oil, water, or anything else.


Pulling us out of dangerous waters, it is of note that in the Dresden Files, Harry Dresden is known to his local catholic priest because it's rare for said priest to get orders of holy water by the barrel. Harry needed it to handle some vampires; it apparently works as advertised in the Dresdenverse.

Buffy's universe also seems to have functioning holy water; I think it's literally a magic spell to bless it, because Giles and Willow seem to be the chief manufacturers of the Scooby Squad's supply. It's been ages since I watched Buffy, though, so I could be misremembering.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Animals. In a previous thread along these same lines, where the question devolved into "a Wizard 1 from D&D world appears on Earth", I proposed that the wizard would use magic in secret, but would mostly kill things with hunting rifles. Hunting licenses give them a good reason to get into fights with moderately difficult-to-defeat animals, and modern Earth has developed a lot of ways to kill things without magic. Once the wizard is high enough level to Polymorph, he can do away with the hunting licenses and start poaching bigger creatures that are more threatening (and tend to be rarer). Eventually he can graduate to hunting down Giant Squids, which will see him top out somewhere around lvl 18-19. Presumably, at least a small portion of IRL people could do the same, assuming that the general population figured out that killing things would give them XP (the nerds would probably make the connection first, for obvious reasons). At this point, the world could very well descend into anarchy as people seek out other people to kill as well (since other people can level up, they'd actually be more threatening than animals usually).If I started today with enough XP to level up to wizard 1, I could be epic (with NI levels) within the week, even without access to anything but humans and Earth animals. And the only reason it would even take that long is because it takes time to regain spells.


Let's please not troll in ways that violate the forum rules. Claiming that all holy water is a lie is attacking people's religious beliefs.I didn't attack anything. Saying I did is specious, at best. The only way to create holy water is via magic. By this thread's very premise, we can't use magic, so actual holy water doesn't exist.

[Xar Zarath]

...assume that the wizard is bringing his magical powers to bear in a world otherwise-indistinguishable from our own, and see how that works out for him and the world.

This also. When I start threads like this, it is already assumed that magic is functioning in our universe otherwise the thread cannot progress as without his magic, it wouldn't be a Wizard VS earth thing...

Also as pointed out while magic may exist in our world for the purposes of this scenario, magical knowledge and study doesn't exist because there is no previous studies or learning to support the advancement of magic to become even a fully fledge Wizard 1.

Rather it will take time, time that even the Wizard 20 can exploit. Whether to teach us so he can drain the xp out and use it for his own purposes or just going "nope" and proceeds to extend his destructive plans to the rest of the planet remains to be seen. Although I welcome any posts on the scenarios...

[Segev]

I didn't attack anything. Saying I did is specious, at best. The only way to create holy water is via magic. By this thread's very premise, we can't use magic, so actual holy water doesn't exist.

You did. You didn't couch it in terms of 'within the context of this thread' or posit that it should be different. You said it's real if it's done with a D&D spell but that anybody who says they make it IRL is lying. Perhaps you didn't mean it, but the very clear implication is that anybody who claims IRL to make holy water is lying.

That is an attack on real world religions and those who believe in them.

Maybe you didn't mean it that way; if so, you need to be more careful how you phrase things. Accusing people of lying about their deeply-held beliefs is, in fact, an attack on them and their beliefs.

Now, I suggest we drop this.

[khadgar567]

You did. You didn't couch it in terms of 'within the context of this thread' or posit that it should be different. You said it's real if it's done with a D&D spell but that anybody who says they make it IRL is lying. Perhaps you didn't mean it, but the very clear implication is that anybody who claims IRL to make holy water is lying.

That is an attack on real world religions and those who believe in them.

Maybe you didn't mean it that way; if so, you need to be more careful how you phrase things. Accusing people of lying about their deeply-held beliefs is, in fact, an attack on them and their beliefs.

Now, I suggest we drop this.
agreed with the evil CEO

[Conradine]

My modest opinion is that a level ONE Wizard, with careful use of Hypnosis ( that allow to implant permanent behiavour modifications ) can, given enough time, conquer the real world.

[zimmerwald1915]

Technically I would consider Earth and the universe its in to have magic. And as for the scenario in this thread, then yes Earth operates normally regarding to magic similar to Golarion in PF for all intents and purposes.
No need for assumptions. Earth, albeit 1921 Earth, exists in the PF campaign setting, and magic works normally on it.

[Strigon]

My modest opinion is that a level ONE Wizard, with careful use of Hypnosis ( that allow to implant permanent behiavour modifications ) can, given enough time, conquer the real world.

Well, considering how many people in real life have come close to that goal, I don't think that's an unrealistic assertion in the slightest.

[Hecuba]

It's not. D&D holy water is created via magic. Real world "holy water" is just tap water that someone lies about.

D&D holy water can be created by magic, but there is nothing indicating it has to be. In fact, I would probably err on the side of that not being the case: good temples produce and sell it at cost - regardless of whether they have anyone capable of casting spells. Additionally, the holy water itself is explicitly not supernatural or magical. Moreover, if we presume that magic can function in the real world- one of the premises of a debate like this- then we have no way to test whether or not that is the case until we encounter an undead or demon to test on.

Taken as a whole, it seems at least plausable that a ritual or a natural process or something else that makes holy water without magical intervention. If we take that as a given (and also take the premise that things like magic and undead are real in some reachable alternate plane - a requisite premise for this discussion) , it is then at least plausible that one or more of the rituals used by real world churches to make their holy water could qualify.

If you do come across an undead to test on, please make sure to record the testing and the results and get back to me. Until then, when discussing incorporeality in threads like this one, I will continue to advise for methods of incorporeality that are not tied to undeath or being an evil outsider. I do this not because of any particular inclination to believe that real-world holy water would work for such an application. Rather, because I lack the means to demonstrate that it could not possibly work, I choose to tactic where it will not matter whether or not it does.

[Someguy231]

This is why we need to kill ALL spellcasters before they get to this power. They are a threat to this world and they must be stopped!

[ryu]

This is why we need to kill ALL spellcasters before they get to this power. They are a threat to this world and they must be stopped!

The problem with taking that stance to people with that power is that it just ensures they kill us all rather than usher in some glorious post scarcity, physics screwing utopia.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The problem with taking that stance to people with that power is that it just ensures they kill us all rather than usher in some glorious post scarcity, physics screwing utopia.Don't worry; he's just someguy on the internet, someplace where wizards are likely to never go.

[Ravanan]

Strategically, by the scenario we've already stacked the deck in favor of the wizard without her casting a single spell.

We're assuming she knows about her opponent, while her opponent is not even aware of her existence. Consider the differences if the army were instead transported with all their resources into that world? They could potentially scout out the wizard's tower (because it's always a tower for some reason) without him being aware of it. See Invisibility, True Seeing...neither counters mundane stealth (camoflage, active camo). Does Invisibility block other forms of electromagnetic radiation? Infrared, xray, radio? If not, then one of the wizard's best stealth tools is considerably mitigated. Just as initiative is important in the tactical level, it's at least as important in the strategic level.
We're assuming fantasy D&DPF mechanics for the wizard, and more or less real world mechanics for the army. For instance, it has long been acknowledged that the hit points system is hilariously unrealistic at virtually every level (housecat: Commoner-bane; Dragon Breath: Totally survivable to a 20th level anything), and then you're assuming nukes as dealing as much damage as an intensified fireball? (To be fair, I believe d20 future lists it as 16d8 vs ships, and then ship weapons have a x10 damage modifier against humans). To say nothing of being at 1/230 hp doing nothing to degrade your capabilities while a human soldier will obey actual biological laws (where losing half your hp is more likely to end you up in a hospital or otherwise in urgent need of medical attention). Two dozens snipers vs a wizard?
Most 20+ level wizards in the actual canon of various settings tend to not behave the way a 20th level PC does. Perhaps because they are actual "people" rather than a nerdy power fantasy archetype, perhaps because PCs are far more likely to "optimize" and in strict situation/resolution terms get a fairly hefty power boost (how many players are "optimized" the way a PC is?).

[Florian]

As with similar questions, this one is simply plain stupid as it comes down to laws of physics.

Should our laws not apply, the Chinese army will spam wish and be done with it.

[Segev]

The assumption is that the wizard has the element of surprise, yes. He knows he's in a new place, and deploys his resources to learn about it before acting overtly. Even if he's "caught" immediately upon arrival, most societies will think him a bit weird but leave him alone unless he does something stupid to draw hostile attention to himself before he's ready to deal with it.

The "Chinese army" going to D&Dworld would have a harder time being quite that stealthy.

The reason the wizard is assumed to have the information advantage really boils down to how much easier and more accurately a wizard can gather military intelligence than even the most advanced and skilled real-world army. Magic divinations are just that good.

Heck, "I cast legend lore on this 'china' that I heard about" would get him 90% of what he needs.

[Liquor Box]

All of this is largely beside the point; my point was that we should be faithful to the spirit of the question, and assume that the wizard is bringing his magical powers to bear in a world otherwise-indistinguishable from our own, and see how that works out for him and the world.

But it's not just bringing magical powers in a world that is otherwise indistinguishable.

First, people are relying on all sorts of things other than magic, concepts like the wizard being able to switch planes, which requires the existence of other planes (something we don't know to exist).

Second, it also requires the magic to not only exist, but to prevail over real world physics - in the real world if you heat a human up enough he will die, but in DnD you can get immunity to fire - which one prevails.

Third, we are assuming that the new concept would not be effected by real world things. For example, if incorporality existed in the real world (which it does not as far as we know), it may be effected by nuclear radiation or "damage types" that don't exist in the DnD universe. But we are assuming it will not.

Fourth, as your last post acknowledges, is assumes that the wizard would arrive on our world, study it and make plans, before the chinese army even knows of its existence (I don't see that the chinese army would have a problem assessing a DnD world in a stealthy way - it could send a few operatives through in advance). Casting legend law assumes that the wizard knows to inquire about china before china even knows of the possible existence of wizards.



If those are the assumptions we have in this scenario, that is fine. But the environment does seem to me to stack the deck in favour of the wizard. It's like discussing a fight between a shark and a lion, but having it take place in the ocean.

[Segev]

If those are the assumptions we have in this scenario, that is fine. But the environment does seem to me to stack the deck in favour of the wizard. It's like discussing a fight between a shark and a lion, but having it take place in the ocean.

Given that the scenario presented is "wizard arrives on Earth," that is the scenario.

The reverse: China arrives in D&Dworld, would have similar assumptions...but the lack of China's ability to be nearly as undetected as one guy would cause problems from the get-go.

Unless the wizard arrives in some sort of flashy way and immediately is taken down in some fashion that overrides his layered defenses (as we tend to assume 20th level wizards have), he's going to have the means to "disappear" and start figuring out what questions to ask. Assuming other planes exist is part of assuming his magic works as it says it does.

If you want to make the scenario one where the wizard arrived in a manner that drew attention, fine, but that only gives the Chinese army warning that "something weird" happened, and they need to figure out what. They might start a manhunt. Not knowing the powers of this wizard, they won't know what to protect against. They can certainly try to find out.


I'm not sure what environmental changes you want to make to this scenario that won't invalidate it being China's army that's the primary foe (as opposed to some modern fantasy army that we base off of china's army), and it being a 20th level PF wizard (as opposed to a guy who, if he were in a setting with magic, would be a PF wizard, but is actually just a really smart guy with knowledge largely inapplicable to this world).

[Liquor Box]

Given that the scenario presented is "wizard arrives on Earth," that is the scenario.
Well no, that alone is not the scenario - the scenario seems to be that wizard arrives on a version of earth which has been altered so that magic exists, various other DnD concepts (like incorporality and alternative planes) exist, and where the foundations of earth's power (using technology to manipulate matter and energy) is trumped by the magic and other concepts.
If the scenario was simply that wizard arrived on earth as it is now, the wizard would lose.


The reverse: China arrives in D&Dworld, would have similar assumptions...but the lack of China's ability to be nearly as undetected as one guy would cause problems from the get-go.

I don't think china would have much trouble going undetected at all. It would be relatively simple for it to put agents into the DnD world. But that is not the point.


I'm not sure what environmental changes you want to make to this scenario that won't invalidate it being China's army that's the primary foe (as opposed to some modern fantasy army that we base off of china's army), and it being a 20th level PF wizard (as opposed to a guy who, if he were in a setting with magic, would be a PF wizard, but is actually just a really smart guy with knowledge largely inapplicable to this world).

Seems to me that there are three general ways of handling it:
1. This occurs on something that is the real world, but with the wizard inserted into it. There is no magic or planes or incorporality or way to trump physics by staying alive at thousands of degrees celsius. The wizard (who would still be a pf wizard despite not being able to use his magic) loses.
2. This occurs on something that is basically the DnD world (or the real world made to function by DnD rules), with the chinese inserted into it. The Chinese' understanding of the way the world functions is wrong and their weapons don't have the effects they ordinarily would. The Chinese have no opportunity to learn how to function on this world or to interact (resist or control) the new concepts therein. The Chinese lose.
3. This occurs on a hypothetical world where DnD concepts such as magic, planes and incorporality exist and are known to exist. Both sides have the opportunity to adapt to the altered surroundings. For example, if the rules of this world are that nuclear radiation effect incorporeals the wizard would probably know this and would not rely on incorporeality to avoid nuclear blasts, it may even research a resist radiation type spell. The Chinese would not employ magic themselves (that going against the core concept here) but may develop technological solutions to deal with some of the new concepts this world entails - maybe a technological way to change planes.

It seems to me that the first and second are like the shark and bear fight in deep water or on land. In either case the result is obvious because the environment stacks the deck. The third is far from perfect (what happens when physics conflicts with magic?, what tech solutions would the chinese have is they existed in the alternative world?) but it seems to be to be the only scenario where both parties have the opportunity to bring their power to bear on the other in any meaningful way. Maybe analogous to the shark vs bear in shallow water.

The original poster has clarified that he was thinking of the second scenario, or a variation thereof. That's fine, it's his thread. But in that case I think the answer is obvious.

[Ravanan]

Okay, then.
Tweaks:
Wizard with his tower and entire workforce/facilities/equipment/soldiery of the Chinese military-industrial complex are warped into a cube in Acheron by a deific force. All astral connections are severed, so planeshifting is impossible (though there is a local ethereal plane, allowing incorporeality and teleportation within the cube), both parties told the only way to leave is when the either side is wiped out. Sufficient natural resources for fortifications and equipment to be built, easily accessible by either side.

There, we've set out a nice even playing field where both sides have full access to the resources they need to wipe the other side out, while simultaneously disallowing either side to call upon external allies so that we are just having the level 20 Pathfinder wizard fighting the Chinese army.

We still have the issue of which set of physics get to take precedence, but at least you aren't handing the victory away before the battle begins.

Or perhaps I'm misunderstanding this whole exercise. Maybe this is just intended be another discussion of how lolOPed Wizards are. I think the tier discussion sufficiently proved that point, but hey, have fun with it, and I'll bow out if so. I may do so anyway rather than try to hammer out how to reconcile hit points with real world health.

[Liquor Box]

Most 20+ level wizards in the actual canon of various settings tend to not behave the way a 20th level PC does. Perhaps because they are actual "people" rather than a nerdy power fantasy archetype, perhaps because PCs are far more likely to "optimize" and in strict situation/resolution terms get a fairly hefty power boost (how many players are "optimized" the way a PC is?).
[/LIST]

This point is spot on in a general sense.

I was discussing wizard vulnerabilities in another thread, and some people seemed to genuinely propose that all (not just some, but all) high level wizards would never (not just infrequently, but never) leave their own pocked plane, except to go adventuring for a couple of hours every few weeks. This was on the basis of "why would any wizard ever want to leave his own plane and visit the real world?".

[Extra Anchovies]

a nerdy power fantasy archetype

You say this as if anything that's ever been printed in a fantasy roleplaying book wasn't based in, well, fantasy. Some people want to play Elric, some people want to play Gandalf, some people want to play Hercules; it's all the same in that respect.


perhaps because PCs are far more likely to "optimize" and in strict situation/resolution terms get a fairly hefty power boost (how many players are "optimized" the way a PC is?)

Did you get to choose your own genetics and the environment you were brought up in? No, of course you didn't. But the players get to control what characters they play - putting an 18 in Intelligence doesn't mean you're taking some protean wizard-creature and making it smarter, it means you're looking at all the possible characters to play and narrowing it down to those with 18 Intelligence. Selecting powerful character options means the character you picked happened to be a character who took those options in-setting.


I was discussing wizard vulnerabilities in another thread, and some people seemed to genuinely propose that all (not just some, but all) high level wizards would never (not just infrequently, but never) leave their own pocked plane, except to go adventuring for a couple of hours every few weeks. This was on the basis of "why would any wizard ever want to leave his own plane and visit the real world?".

A 9ths-capable wizard is a super-supergenius. They are at bare minimum in the 99th percentile of human intelligence, assuming 4d6 drop lowest (anydice input found here (http://anydice.com/articles/4d6-drop-lowest/)). With items, a higher starting Int, and possibly Wishes they'd have an Intelligence approaching or exceeding 30. That's smarter than a significant number of literal gods. If normal humans like us can look at the Astral Projection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm) spell - the body text of which would make perfect sense to a character in-setting - and see its use in ensuring personal safety, they inarguably see it as well.

[Liquor Box]

Did you get to choose your own genetics and the environment you were brought up in? No, of course you didn't. But the players get to control what characters they play - putting an 18 in Intelligence doesn't mean you're taking some protean wizard-creature and making it smarter, it means you're looking at all the possible characters to play and narrowing it down to those with 18 Intelligence. Selecting powerful character options means the character you picked happened to be a character who took those options in-setting.

I think the point was not that players are 'wrong' to select somewhat optimal options for their wizard characters. I think the point was that most wizards in a given setting will not be optimised in that way.

Even NPC wizards are likely to be somewhat optimised, in that they are likely to have above average intelligence - otherwise they would not select (or be selected for) the class of wizard and would not do well at it. But this would not require anywhere near the degree of optimisation that we see in most PC wizards.

I suppose, in the present context, that begs the question of whether the wizard is a highly optimised PC wizard, or a 'let genetics and environment determine most of my abilities' NPC wizard.

To be honest, in this scenarion I don't think it makes a huge difference.


A 9ths-capable wizard is a super-supergenius. They are at bare minimum in the 99th percentile of human intelligence, assuming 4d6 drop lowest (anydice input found here (http://anydice.com/articles/4d6-drop-lowest/)). With items, a higher starting Int, and possibly Wishes they'd have an Intelligence approaching or exceeding 30. That's smarter than a significant number of literal gods. If normal humans like us can look at the Astral Projection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm) spell - the body text of which would make perfect sense to a character in-setting - and see its use in ensuring personal safety, they inarguably see it as well.

Sure, I agree that any high level wizard would realise the value of various spells and tactics. But we cannot assume that they are super-risk averse risk averse. I doubt actual humans in the 99th percentile consistently hole themselves up in the equivalent (panic rooms I suppose) for eternity. It's not like wizards are totally defenseless as soon as they leave the house.

[ryu]

I think the point was not that players are 'wrong' to select somewhat optimal options for their wizard characters. I think the point was that most wizards in a given setting will not be optimised in that way.

Even NPC wizards are likely to be somewhat optimised, in that they are likely to have above average intelligence - otherwise they would not select (or be selected for) the class of wizard and would not do well at it. But this would not require anywhere near the degree of optimisation that we see in most PC wizards.

I suppose, in the present context, that begs the question of whether the wizard is a highly optimised PC wizard, or a 'let genetics and environment determine most of my abilities' NPC wizard.

To be honest, in this scenarion I don't think it makes a huge difference.



Sure, I agree that any high level wizard would realise the value of various spells and tactics. But we cannot assume that they are super-risk averse risk averse. I doubt actual humans in the 99th percentile consistently hole themselves up in the equivalent (panic rooms I suppose) for eternity. It's not like wizards are totally defenseless as soon as they leave the house.

Actual humans in the 99th percentile don't do that because they don't have to deal with even a fraction of what a level twenty character is expected on a daily basis during the entirety of their lives. If that wording was confusing I was stating that a level 20 adventure deals with orders of magnitude more in a single relatively average day than the sum total of people on this forum will deal with in their entire lives.

[Xar Zarath]

...snip...

Might I suggest a demiplane instead for the intrepid Wizard. PF has much more clearly defined spells regarding demiplanes and their creation.

[Hecuba]

Sure, I agree that any high level wizard would realise the value of various spells and tactics. But we cannot assume that they are super-risk averse risk averse. I doubt actual humans in the 99th percentile consistently hole themselves up in the equivalent (panic rooms I suppose) for eternity. It's not like wizards are totally defenseless as soon as they leave the house.

You don't have to be particularly risk averse to interact with the world through astral projection when the only downside to doing so is a need to avoid one particular kind of weapon. If you have a secure place to put your real body, why would you ever not astral project?

[Segev]

Well no, that alone is not the scenario - the scenario seems to be that wizard arrives on a version of earth which has been altered so that magic exists, various other DnD concepts (like incorporality and alternative planes) exist, and where the foundations of earth's power (using technology to manipulate matter and energy) is trumped by the magic and other concepts.
If the scenario was simply that wizard arrived on earth as it is now, the wizard would lose.

"If a marine fights Goku, but the universe is the real one where Goku can't fly, use chi, or have skin that can survive a bullet, nor can he move faster than human physical prowess would allow, who would win?" is not the same question as "Who would win in a fight between a marine and Goku?"

"Who would win in a fight between Goku and Superman where neither of them have superpowers because those don't work in the real world?" is not the same question as "Who would win in a fight between Goku and Superman?"

"What happens in a fight between Cthulhu and an F-22 Raptor?" is not the same as "What happens in a fight between Cthulhu and an F-22 Raptor where Cthulhu has to obey the square-cube law just like everything else?"

"What happens if an Evangelion is unleashed on a modern battlefield, but AT-fields don't work because they don't work in the real world?" is not the same question as "What happens in a fight between an Evangelion and a modern military?"



The inherent assumption in "What happens when X and Y meet/fight/interact?" is that X and Y both have the properties you normally associate with them, nothing more and nothing less. "The wizard in a dead magic world is still a wizard, he just can't use any magic or anything else that would make him actually recognizable as a wizard" is a specious argument. Technically true, but it's like telling somebody that they get unlimited wishes, only to reveal that you never promised those wishes would be granted.

[Hecuba]

"The wizard in a dead magic world is still a wizard, he just can't use any magic or anything else that would make him actually recognizable as a wizard" is a specious argument.

Actually, I find that one kind of interesting for certain situations - 3.5 has ways to cast magic in dead magic areas. It would allow a very mechanically interesting way to delve into how much we can cripple a wizard before he can't overcome it.

But I don't know the rules for dead magic in PF well enough to delve into it without some serious reading. In fact, I'm not even positive off the top of my head that they explicitly have things like Invoke Magic.

[Vogonjeltz]

To the people suggesting a shadopocalypse, remember that incorporeal creatures must remain within 5 feet of open space at all times. This means a reasonably thick wall can still contain them, meaning humanity could hide in underground shelters and such.

Also, Holy Water is relatively easy to mass produce.


Intersection of worlds? What intersection of worlds? The wizard decided to shift worlds one day, then he did. Then he made a nice safe, undetectable haven and started divining. Books never enter the equation.

Where exactly would qualify as a "safe haven"? How is the Wizard feeding themselves? Avoiding someone just stumbling into or across their lair? Paying for any of their material costs? It's not like they have anything that anyone would consider money, and trying to pass gold or other metallic coinage would be placing a giant blinking red sign saying: I AM UNUSUAL YOU SHOULD CHECK ME OUT; which is probably the opposite of what this supposedly intelligent wizard is going for.

No matter how intelligent the Wizard is, it's going to take them years if not decades to catch up on physics and have even a passing comprehension of how most technology works. These are people who have to paying 1000 gold for a primative clock.

Imagine how they'd react to seeing modern tech like a car or plane. Those would blow their medieval little minds. They'd probably end up insane.

[ryu]

Also, Holy Water is relatively easy to mass produce.



Where exactly would qualify as a "safe haven"? How is the Wizard feeding themselves? Avoiding someone just stumbling into or across their lair? Paying for any of their material costs? It's not like they have anything that anyone would consider money, and trying to pass gold or other metallic coinage would be placing a giant blinking red sign saying: I AM UNUSUAL YOU SHOULD CHECK ME OUT; which is probably the opposite of what this supposedly intelligent wizard is going for.

No matter how intelligent the Wizard is, it's going to take them years if not decades to catch up on physics and have even a passing comprehension of how most technology works. These are people who have to paying 1000 gold for a primative clock.

Imagine how they'd react to seeing modern tech like a car or plane. Those would blow their medieval little minds. They'd probably end up insane.

You do realize we can use spells or even inexpensive magic items to create food and water right? Or that that are any of several ways of simply creating an area it's literally impossible for the pathetic earthlings to access? Or that for all your talk of far advanced we are we somehow manage to teach children to live in it actively in just over a decade of active teaching? Oh or that those same children didn't have the advantage of being provably smarter than any human in recorded history by orders of magnitude and divinations to work with?

[AvatarVecna]

Where exactly would qualify as a "safe haven"? Avoiding someone just stumbling into or across their lair?

Private Demiplane, from which the Wizard is astrally projecting?


How is the Wizard feeding themselves?

Ring Of Sustenance, being an undead or an outsider, some item granting Create Food And Water at least once a day...


Paying for any of their material costs? It's not like they have anything that anyone would consider money, and trying to pass gold or other metallic coinage would be placing a giant blinking red sign saying: I AM UNUSUAL YOU SHOULD CHECK ME OUT; which is probably the opposite of what this supposedly intelligent wizard is going for.

Assuming that the wizard isn't using some method of getting around expensive material components, and assuming he's getting them from our world rather than Plane Shifting to his home dimension in D&D land to purchase them, I imagine he'd probably just steal them. Not like we would know he was robbing us until well after the fact, and not like we could stop him even if we knew ahead of time who on earth he was going to rob and of what.


No matter how intelligent the Wizard is, it's going to take them years if not decades to catch up on physics and have even a passing comprehension of how most technology works. These are people who have to paying 1000 gold for a primative clock. Imagine how they'd react to seeing modern tech like a car or plane. Those would blow their medieval little minds. They'd probably end up insane.

A bog-standard Wizard 20 will have started with Int 18, likely with +2 from race. Over time, he added 5 from level, 3 from aging into venerable, 5 from that nifty book he found, and 6 from an item designed to enhance his Intelligence. That Wizard 20 will be rocking Int 39, giving him a +14 modifier. Why is this important? Well, according to the retraining rules (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/more-character-options/retraining), that means the Wizard can take 5 days to retrain a feat into Technologist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/technologist); at this point, the Wizard either has ranks in Knowledge (Engineering), or he has to spend 5 days transfering at least a single rank into it. Assuming he transfers the maximum of 14 ranks into this now-important skill, the Wizard has a +31 Knowledge (Engineering) check, which allows him to instantly identify any technology with a Craft DC of 32 or less, allows him to at least try and recognize it if the Craft DC is between 32 and 51.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/dc/55/24/dc5524b402039b64aa1926aff7c103a2.jpg

Beyond that, when a Wizard uses magic, it's not some unconscious understanding of the energies involved, or magic in their blood, or ****ing super-music, it's a wizard using their understanding of how energy and magic interact and using that knowledge to make the universe its bitch. The wizard is more than aware of the existence of Artificers who can bind magic into items with ease...hell, even the wizard can make a "flying machine". Now, the speed of such things might impress the wizard, and he would look into learning how things weird magic items function (even in an antimagic field)...at which point the Wizard retrains as mentioned above.

[Strigon]

No matter how intelligent the Wizard is, it's going to take them years if not decades to catch up on physics and have even a passing comprehension of how most technology works. These are people who have to paying 1000 gold for a primative clock.

Imagine how they'd react to seeing modern tech like a car or plane. Those would blow their medieval little minds. They'd probably end up insane.

I mean, all they need is a high school physics textbook, and once they figure out this thing called Google, they could probably learn it all in about a week. Much faster, in all likelihood.

[Segev]

I mean, all they need is a high school physics textbook, and once they figure out this thing called Google, they could probably learn it all in about a week. Much faster, in all likelihood.

I am now imagining a wizard casting contact other plane to reach the entity known as Google.

[Vogonjeltz]

You do realize we can use spells or even inexpensive magic items to create food and water right? Or that that are any of several ways of simply creating an area it's literally impossible for the pathetic earthlings to access? Or that for all your talk of far advanced we are we somehow manage to teach children to live in it actively in just over a decade of active teaching? Oh or that those same children didn't have the advantage of being provably smarter than any human in recorded history by orders of magnitude and divinations to work with?

What inexpensive magic item that creates food and water? You do realize this seems like an awfully convenient plot armor bone you've thrown this theoretical wizard to justify the scenario working out right?

What area that's impossible to access and doesn't throw up the huge red flag that something strange is in this location? There's no way to escape notice. Even people of average to below average intelligence will quickly figure out that something odd is going on and investigate further. You do realize the jig will be up before even a week passes by right?

It still takes time to read and the Wizard has to actually get the information. You do realize a wizard can't scry if they have no connection and no knowledge of the people in question right? And even when scrying that doesn't give a close up on any materials, so they won't be reading diddly squat unless the subject happens to be reading it (close up) as well.

You do realize that the Wizard has no means at all of learning anything about the world through scrying, and to gain the ability to scry they'd have to deliberately expose themselves to risk right?

[AvatarVecna]

What inexpensive magic item that creates food and water? You do realize this seems like an awfully convenient plot armor bone you've thrown this theoretical wizard to justify the scenario working out right?

Note to self: convenient plot armor is apparently purchasable for 1250 gp. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/rings/ring-of-sustenance)


What area that's impossible to access and doesn't throw up the huge red flag that something strange is in this location? There's no way to escape notice. Even people of average to below average intelligence will quickly figure out that something odd is going on and investigate further. You do realize the jig will be up before even a week passes by right?

I must admit, I was not aware of any recent scientific developments that allowed us to access planar travel, so pray tell me Vogongeltz: what modern phenomenon of science and technology has granted humanity the ability to pierce the veil between our world and a completely separate plane of existence? (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/spells/createDemiplane.html)


It still takes time to read and the Wizard has to actually get the information. You do realize a wizard can't scry if they have no connection and no knowledge of the people in question right? And even when scrying that doesn't give a close up on any materials, so they won't be reading diddly squat unless the subject happens to be reading it (close up) as well.

You do realize that the Wizard has no means at all of learning anything about the world through scrying, and to gain the ability to scry they'd have to deliberately expose themselves to risk right?

Astral Projection (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/spells/astralProjection.html) allows the Wizard to adventure into our world without his real body leaving the safety of his demiplane. From there, I imagine that there's plenty of spells the wizard could use to avoid detection, to gather information, and to plan out his assault to take over/destroy the world.

[Hecuba]

Note to self: convenient plot armor is apparently purchasable for 1250 gp. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/rings/ring-of-sustenance)
If we have access to 3.5 stuff, this gets way cheaper - everlasting rations are only 1/10th of that.

[AvatarVecna]

If we have access to 3.5 stuff, this gets way cheaper - everlasting rations are only 1/10th of that.

Between Everlasting Rations, Everful Mug, Replenishing Skin, and the Decanter Of Endless Water, there's a lot of things that can protect a person from starvation and thirst fairly easily and for cheap. Now, I didn't bring up the 3.5 stuff because this is a PF thread, and that's almost guaranteed to result in some whiner crawling out of the woodwork, and that would just undermine the point. Yeah, 3.5 can do it cheaper (hell, Necropolitan gives you starvation/thirst immunity, and a pile of other immunities, basically for free), but even in pure Pathfinder, with just Core material, it's dirt-cheap.

[Segev]

Are we seriously asking how a wizard who is capable of taking over a government by charming and dominating the right people could possibly get food and shelter?



Wazzier the Wizard walks up to the door of a building and speaks to somebody there, asking where he might find food and shelter. He either uses charm person or dominate person to make this person host him, or he takes their advice and goes to a hotel to which he's been directed; at said hotel, he uses a similar procedure to get the manager to give him a free room and free room service.

Now, the latter might draw attention, but nothing he couldn't deal with by vanishing to another locale, or carefully and intelligently controlling decision-makers who look too closely.

Next, he asks some questions about gathering information, and hears of "Wikipedia" and "google" and learns how to use a computer and the internet. He gets one of his new best friends to show him how to use their tablets, or to help him pick out a laptop. Perhaps he even trades some service or goods that he can pass off in a subtle enough way - by now, of course, he's realized that nobody believes in magic, here.


There are hazards. A wizard who makes some poor moves can get himself harassed and into a hostile situation before he's really prepared. This complicates his ultimate victory, but also necessitates that he actually pursue it. If he were uninterested in it before, and he managed to be subtle enough, he could insert himself anywhere in society (or outside of it) he chose, given even a modicum of time.

[Quertus]

It feels to me like this battle ought to take place on some third world, neither D&D (where all that tech is likely converted into magical artifacts), nor this world. One where magic and technology both work as their practitioners expect.

Also, IME, in most scenarios like this, both sides are aware that there is something they need to kill.

To get more concrete examples instead of theoretical wizard 20... I know nothing of Pathfinder, but here's how some of my D&D characters would interact with this scenario (in the most straightforward ways possible):

Quertus @ 20 would let the Chinese army fire at him, reload, and continue firing until they were all dead. Because they literally cannot harm him.

If they started dropping nukes, Quertus might bother to do the humanitarian thing, and the nukes would all mysteriously fail to explode.

Oh, and Quertus already understands modern tech, as well as technology far beyond what us "primitives" have discovered.

Armus @ 20 would hide and try to gather intelligence. ****, I don't speak their language. ****, this reminds me of stuff Quertus tried to tell me about, but his lectures were just so boring .

Unless the Chinese army has some really obscure sights, Armus could simply avoid them until they all die of old age, and declare victory. And loot the bodies.

Seras would theoretically experiment with various spells, to determine which was most effective. Creating storms to sicken and down the army seem like winners.

In practice, however, he would be shot, and his contingency would send him home... where he would probably die, depending on how mortal wounds are interpreted.

Naradin @ 20 would take the army out in melee, and, as an unintended insult, animate the dead. Rules as given, give or take pf vs 3.x, they would be unable to harm Naradin.

Raymond @ 20... Well, shortly after the "game" starts, all the Chinese communications equipment would be hijacked by a voice, speaking flawless Chinese, that would explain to them that their only possible recourse was to defect to his side... or die. Anyone who wanted to live would be required to prove their conversion by slaying at least 100 of their countrymen.

Of course, this message would be so convincing, the entire army would immediately become Raymond's fanatical followers, and begin murdering each other. Raymond would just sit back, smile, and watch the carnage.

And, yes, all of my characters have custom spells. Pathfinder does still have that concept, does it not?


But the level 20 wizard is the only level 20 wizard around for QUITE some time, as it takes a while to learn magic and get to level 20.

Make me wizard 1, under 3.x rules, but trapped in this world, and I might just hit wizard 20 within a day.


EDIT: and if we're bringing DnD training into it; where are the earthlings going to find enough fodder to kill in order to level? We don't have goblins. Our greatest chance at survival is that gold is so expensive that the Wizard will have trouble finding enough things to act as Materials for powerful spells.

We have humans.


I would think that before any wizard 20 with a 26+ Int goes all barbarian and starts throwing spells at a million man army, he would want to know what kind of weapons they had, how they were organized, etc. He probably didn't get to be a wizard 20 without understanding at least the basics of opposition research. He doesn't know the Chinese army doesn't have a legion of Solars until he asks. Practically speaking, this may start with a commune or contact higher plane with a question like "do my enemies possess the ability to threaten my existence". Of course, the answer may be "no" and he may find out about nukes when his astral projection gets blasted. But either way, he will know about them long before they can harm him.

Eh, not all my wizards are tactical geniuses. But most like to gather at least some intel when it is feasible to do so.


If I started today with enough XP to level up to wizard 1, I could be epic (with NI levels) within the week, even without access to anything but humans and Earth animals. And the only reason it would even take that long is because it takes time to regain spells.

Ok, you've got me beat... and stumped. Can you do the same in 3.x?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Ok, you've got me beat... and stumped. Can you do the same in 3.x?Human wizard 1 with a flaw. Take Precocious Apprentice (Ray of Stupidity), along with Sanctum Spell so I can cast it as a 1st level spell, and Forceful Magic to stack on Sanctum Spell, to cast it as a cantrip. Craft some scrolls, which now cost almost nothing to make, since you're crafting them as cantrip scrolls. Now go to the local zoo, "hunt" an elephant there using your spell slots (since ray of stupidity is an auto-defeat, if you can hit its extremely low touch AC with your decent to-hit, so just don't roll a 1), and proceed to gain several levels, just from one elephant. Now take things like Split Ray and Chain Spell. Now go on a safari in Africa by liquidating a handful of gold pieces (using the time in transit to craft more scrolls), and knock a few herds of elephants unconscious using multi-targeted ray of stupidity. Make sure you have levitate prepared, in case you miss with your rays of stupidity via a natural 1; cast levitate before the fight, knock the elephants unconscious, and reap the sweet XP. You can then quickly and easily reach a high enough level to planar bind an efreeti (as herds of elephants have a higher CR than just a single elephant), whereupon you can wish for "a thought bottle, already attuned to me, containing enough experience points to allow me to reach level X" (with "X" being whatever level you want to be).

And there you go.

[Extra Anchovies]

proceed to gain several levels, just from one elephant.

It doesn't quite work that way.


A character can advance only one level at a time. If, for some extraordinary reason, a character’s XP reward from a single adventure would be enough to advance two or more levels at once, he or she instead advances one level and gains just enough XP to be 1 XP short of the next level. Any excess experience points are not retained.

Regardless, I'm sure there's a number of means to cheese an early Wish, at which point you win.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It doesn't quite work that way.Then just continue to snipe elephants and level up one at a time. Ten or so elephants isn't THAT much, honestly. There are herds with more than that. And once you can planar bind your genie, you've got all the XP you could wish for. Literally.

[Xar Zarath]

...Imagine how they'd react to seeing modern tech like a car or plane. Those would blow their medieval little minds. They'd probably end up insane.

Wizards who manipulate the power of the multiverse, see into the future and distant planes of existences, who can contact entities older than some universes and divine powers, raise the dead and enslave the living and master the supernatural powers of their planes into his service.

And you think that seeing a car or plane will would break a Wizard's mind?:smallconfused: Heh not likely...try mastering the universe then we can see whether something so blatantly simple would scare a master of reality shaping. Heck every day a Wizard makes Creation into his little slave.


I am now imagining a wizard casting contact other plane to reach the entity known as Google.

Technically I think Google ascended to divinity already. Take a look at Iron Gods from PF.

http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Iron_God

[Liquor Box]

"If a marine fights Goku, but the universe is the real one where Goku can't fly, use chi, or have skin that can survive a bullet, nor can he move faster than human physical prowess would allow, who would win?" is not the same question as "Who would win in a fight between a marine and Goku?"

"Who would win in a fight between Goku and Superman where neither of them have superpowers because those don't work in the real world?" is not the same question as "Who would win in a fight between Goku and Superman?"

"What happens in a fight between Cthulhu and an F-22 Raptor?" is not the same as "What happens in a fight between Cthulhu and an F-22 Raptor where Cthulhu has to obey the square-cube law just like everything else?"

"What happens if an Evangelion is unleashed on a modern battlefield, but AT-fields don't work because they don't work in the real world?" is not the same question as "What happens in a fight between an Evangelion and a modern military?"



The inherent assumption in "What happens when X and Y meet/fight/interact?" is that X and Y both have the properties you normally associate with them, nothing more and nothing less. "The wizard in a dead magic world is still a wizard, he just can't use any magic or anything else that would make him actually recognizable as a wizard" is a specious argument. Technically true, but it's like telling somebody that they get unlimited wishes, only to reveal that you never promised those wishes would be granted.

Except that what you are doing is denying the Chinese "the properties you normally associate with them". One of the properties normally associated with the Chiense army is that, if they shoot a person a few time that person will be dead or badly injured. By granting the wizard the ability to simply so "no" to most of the army's powers, then it properties have effectively been altered.

If one were to design a series of rules for the real world, they would likely include things like "nuclear blast damages all creatures within its area of effect". Going back to the tactic proposed on the wizard being incorporal - there is a direct contrast between those rules. And in each case there is an underlying assumption that the magic outcome trumps the non-magic one.

Not only are you denying the chinese army its properties, but you are denying them even the opportunity to know that it is possible to deny those powers. I think that is a clear stacking of the deck.

To use one of your examples, Goku vs Superman. That runs into the exact same problem as this scenario - you have to decide which rules (or which canon, or however you want to put it) prevail. If the sceanrio is that superman's invulnerability to all but kryptonite (I understand that's the premise, though I am not expert on superman) means that nothing Goku can do will ever hurt him, then you ARE effectively denying Goku's powers. I am not particularly familiar with Goku, but presumably you could the same thing vice versa. That is essentially what you are doing here.

[Strigon]

Except that what you are doing is denying the Chinese "the properties you normally associate with them". One of the properties normally associated with the Chiense army is that, if they shoot a person a few time that person will be dead or badly injured. By granting the wizard the ability to simply so "no" to most of the army's powers, then it properties have effectively been altered.

If one were to design a series of rules for the real world, they would likely include things like "nuclear blast damages all creatures within its area of effect". Going back to the tactic proposed on the wizard being incorporal - there is a direct contrast between those rules. And in each case there is an underlying assumption that the magic outcome trumps the non-magic one.

Not at all; the Chinese army can do all they want to do, but the fact is that the Wizard's powers are better.
You haven't altered the capabilities of the Chinese army by allowing the Wizard to do his thing, all you've done is allowed the Wizard to do what Wizards do.
If the Chinese shot the Wizard without any protection, he'd probably die. But you seem to be assuming that the Wizard's powers somehow interfere with the Chinese - they don't. It's just that the Wizard is more powerful.

It's like if we tried comparing the US military to the military of Ancient Rome, and you said we were altering Rome's properties because it could win a war against any other nation at the time. It's simply not true - bringing something more powerful into play does not in any way change anything else.

[Eldariel]

Except that what you are doing is denying the Chinese "the properties you normally associate with them". One of the properties normally associated with the Chiense army is that, if they shoot a person a few time that person will be dead or badly injured. By granting the wizard the ability to simply so "no" to most of the army's powers, then it properties have effectively been altered.

That's a feature of the Wizard (or more generally, D&D characters) though, not the Chinese or their weapons. Their weapons work just fine, it's just that particular guy can take a lot more hits than a human has any business being able to. Not that it matters, again, the Wizard is able to make himself invulnerable enough to Earth weapons that it's a moot point anyways if he gets to use his magic.

[Liquor Box]

Not at all; the Chinese army can do all they want to do, but the fact is that the Wizard's powers are better.
You haven't altered the capabilities of the Chinese army by allowing the Wizard to do his thing, all you've done is allowed the Wizard to do what Wizards do.
If the Chinese shot the Wizard without any protection, he'd probably die. But you seem to be assuming that the Wizard's powers somehow interfere with the Chinese - they don't. It's just that the Wizard is more powerful.

That's not true. In the real world action X has effect Y. For a wizard action Z stops effect Y. If X and Z both happen, does effect Y occur? Whichever way you rule it, you have made a decision to nerf one side's powers. By saying the "Wizard is just more powerful" you are simply deciding that the wizard's powers prevail.

I have given an example previously - In the real world, if you heat a human up enough, he dies. In DnD a wizard can cast spells that grant protection/immunity to fire damage. The physics or rules of which world prevail. It does not naturally flow that the DnD rules prevail - that is just an assumption or ruling that you are making.


It's like if we tried comparing the US military to the military of Ancient Rome, and you said we were altering Rome's properties because it could win a war against any other nation at the time. It's simply not true - bringing something more powerful into play does not in any way change anything else.

This is a poor analogy for your point.

The property of being able to "win a war against any other nation at the time" is not altered because altered if the Roman's are unable to beat an army from a different time. There is no clash between the physics or rules that apply to the Roman army and those that apply to modern armies.

There may be environmental issues in a roman army vs US army context. If the war was set 2000 years ago, the modern army would have no runways for its planes, no extra fuel for its vehicles and no extra bullets for its guns. But those difficulties are not nearly so difficult to overcome as a a wizard vs an army because at least the underlying rules and concepts are the same.

[Liquor Box]

That's a feature of the Wizard (or more generally, D&D characters) though, not the Chinese or their weapons. Their weapons work just fine, it's just that particular guy can take a lot more hits than a human has any business being able to. Not that it matters, again, the Wizard is able to make himself invulnerable enough to Earth weapons that it's a moot point anyways if he gets to use his magic.

That's only true because you are taking it that the concepts from DnD to trump those from the real world.

For example, if the rule (I use the word rule so we can deal with this encounter in game terms) for nuclear weapons was "kills all creatures in its area of effect" and the wizard's spell said "avoids all damage from non-magical sources", there is a contradiction. I think most people here are coming from the assumption that the DnD rule prevails. I know that there are a myriad of ways people are saying the wizard could avoid attacks, but for most of those there is an inherent assumption that a DnD rule prevails over the ways things work in the real world (all of which could be re-conceptualised as rules).


As I said on the previous page:


Seems to me that there are three general ways of handling it:
1. This occurs on something that is the real world, but with the wizard inserted into it. There is no magic or planes or incorporality or way to trump physics by staying alive at thousands of degrees celsius. The wizard (who would still be a pf wizard despite not being able to use his magic) loses.
2. This occurs on something that is basically the DnD world (or the real world made to function by DnD rules), with the chinese inserted into it. The Chinese' understanding of the way the world functions is wrong and their weapons don't have the effects they ordinarily would. The Chinese have no opportunity to learn how to function on this world or to interact (resist or control) the new concepts therein. The Chinese lose.
3. This occurs on a hypothetical world where DnD concepts such as magic, planes and incorporality exist and are known to exist. Both sides have the opportunity to adapt to the altered surroundings. For example, if the rules of this world are that nuclear radiation effect incorporeals the wizard would probably know this and would not rely on incorporeality to avoid nuclear blasts, it may even research a resist radiation type spell. The Chinese would not employ magic themselves (that going against the core concept here) but may develop technological solutions to deal with some of the new concepts this world entails - maybe a technological way to change planes.

It seems to me that the first and second are like the shark and bear fight in deep water or on land. In either case the result is obvious because the environment stacks the deck. The third is far from perfect (what happens when physics conflicts with magic?, what tech solutions would the chinese have is they existed in the alternative world?) but it seems to be to be the only scenario where both parties have the opportunity to bring their power to bear on the other in any meaningful way. Maybe analogous to the shark vs bear in shallow water.

The original poster has clarified that he was thinking of the second scenario, or a variation thereof. That's fine, it's his thread. But in that case I think the answer is obvious.

[Strigon]

That's not true. In the real world action X has effect Y. For a wizard action Z stops effect Y. If X and Z both happen, does effect Y occur? Whichever way you rule it, you have made a decision to nerf one side's powers. By saying the "Wizard is just more powerful" you are simply deciding that the wizard's powers prevail.

I have given an example previously - In the real world, if you heat a human up enough, he dies. In DnD a wizard can cast spells that grant protection/immunity to fire damage. The physics or rules of which world prevail. It does not naturally flow that the DnD rules prevail - that is just an assumption or ruling that you are making.



This is a poor analogy for your point.

The property of being able to "win a war against any other nation at the time" is not altered because altered if the Roman's are unable to beat an army from a different time. There is no clash between the physics or rules that apply to the Roman army and those that apply to modern armies.

There may be environmental issues in a roman army vs US army context. If the war was set 2000 years ago, the modern army would have no runways for its planes, no extra fuel for its vehicles and no extra bullets for its guns. But those difficulties are not nearly so difficult to overcome as a a wizard vs an army because at least the underlying rules and concepts are the same.

It's very simple.
It is not an intrinsic property of, say, bullets to be lethal. Bullets are only lethal to things that are vulnerable to slugs of metal moving at high velocities. It just happens that known all life forms in our universe are vulnerable to that. But a Wizard, with the powers attributed to a Wizard, can become immune to them. That doesn't change the properties of the weapon, or the army wielding the weapon, any more than becoming immune to poison changes the properties of a poison.

Following your earlier example, heat isn't inherently damaging or lethal; we're just vulnerable to it. Wizards can expressly become immune to the negative effects of heat, but that doesn't make heat any different.

[AvatarVecna]

The general assumption for things like this is that the real-world thing is represented with game statistics. The rules of D&D can be easily used to simulate the IRL Chinese army and all their weapons, but there's no baseline for knowing how a D&D character adheres to the rules of reality.

Our options are "real world thing is simulated using PF rules", "PF thing is simulated using real-world rules", or "real world thing and PF thing are simulated with a system of rules that oerfectly adheres to both IRL physics and PF rules". The third case is basically impossible to discuss, because RAW isn't fully on speaking terms with physicsor common sense; the second case is basically impossibleto discuss because the conversation would begin and end with "magic is impossible IRL, so they can't do magic"; only the first case, where everything is put into PF rules, can we have some idda of how the conflict would go down.

[Eldariel]

That's only true because you are taking it that the concepts from DnD to trump those from the real world.

For example, if the rule (I use the word rule so we can deal with this encounter in game terms) for nuclear weapons was "kills all creatures in its area of effect" and the wizard's spell said "avoids all damage from non-magical sources", there is a contradiction. I think most people here are coming from the assumption that the DnD rule prevails. I know that there are a myriad of ways people are saying the wizard could avoid attacks, but for most of those there is an inherent assumption that a DnD rule prevails over the ways things work in the real world (all of which could be re-conceptualised as rules).

That requires doing magical things with technology to be possible; an assumption unsupported by the lack of such effects in the technological side of the various RPG systems or indeed, the lack of a known planar cosmology in real world as we know it as well as non-magical d20 variants. Chances are magic can do things that are impossible without it and thus the Chinese Army will, no matter how advanced, have to face an adversary with capabilities they can never match. Indeed, that tends to be the very definition of magic; producing matter/energy out of thin air, moving things instantaneously, creating worlds, ending worlds, resurrecting the dead, travelling back in time, et cetera. D&D magic at least doesn't seem to be superadvanced technology given all it takes is some arcane handwaving, bat guano and few choice words to shatter conservation of energy.

Anyways, if codifying things as rules, DnD has the rule of specific trumping general. That's how all immunities work. So if we have a rule "nukes kill everything" and another rule "doesn't die", "doesn't die" trumps the "kill everything" since "kill everything" is a generic effect that tries to do precisely what the immunity protects from; this applies regardless what system which rule comes from. Though this is a rather strange way to codify nukes: there are plenty of known nuclear survivors after all (of course not at the exact ground zero and these are from small oldschool fission bombs, not modern fusion bombs). Nukes just cause intense heat and extreme radiation; vast majority of the fatalities are due to heat. Lethal radiation overdose is a minor factor. If we have a Wizard who is utterly immune to heat, bringing out Radiation would be relevant but chances are radiation falls under some type of actual damage or attribute damage and is thus irrelevant with magical protections that address those generic categories


However, I posit that's all irrelevant too. As long as the Wizard's magic functions, I posit we can solve this in favor of the Wizard in any number of ways without a single shot being fired (at the real Wizard; shots are fired constantly in the real world so that probably can't be prevented in the short term). Being able to talk with deities, gate in angels, travel planes, teleport, become incorporeal, astrally project, resurrect, produce self-replicating undead, see the future, rewrite minds, etc. without needing any real equipment to speak of is all just on such a different level of power compared to anything our world has access to at the present that it is a non-contest. Like, even other similarly empowered creatures have trouble harming each other; let alone anyone unable to cast Disjunction.

Hell, even assuming it being physically possible to access other planes of existence...how long would it take for the world's best scientists to figure out how to access them? Without a real place to start (they probably don't have convenient deities to ask), pretty damn long I wager. 5 years? 10 years? Longer? We don't exactly have much for the physicists to go off; they'd have to create something from scratch. And then go from that to actually building usable technology to that end and then building scanners to actually locate extraplanar creatures and then to find this one particular creature on some plane... I don't see it happening in the time it takes for a Wizard to learn what he wishes to learn and then her projections, planar bound/gated fiends and company to dominate everybody relevant and bring about a nuclear apocalypse, shadowcalypse, wightocalypse, global flood, barren Earth or whatever (though I still don't get why she'd do that).

[Malroth]

Even if you kept the "rules" that modern rifles can instantly kill anything they hit and Nukes vaporize anything in their area with no chance of survival Etherial or not, I'd still be placing my bets on the Wizard once he starts playing Subtle. Nobody is going to nuke their own country for one unknown pointy hat guy and rifles arent going to do much against an invisible gnat controling people from hundreds of yards away.

[Liquor Box]

It's very simple.
It is not an intrinsic property of, say, bullets to be lethal. Bullets are only lethal to things that are vulnerable to slugs of metal moving at high velocities. It just happens that known all life forms in our universe are vulnerable to that. But a Wizard, with the powers attributed to a Wizard, can become immune to them. That doesn't change the properties of the weapon, or the army wielding the weapon, any more than becoming immune to poison changes the properties of a poison.

Following your earlier example, heat isn't inherently damaging or lethal; we're just vulnerable to it. Wizards can expressly become immune to the negative effects of heat, but that doesn't make heat any different.

I'm not sure that you are right that heat is not inherently damaging.

It is my understanding that it a principle of physics that all solids change their state when sufficient heat is applied. The change in state may be liquefaction, sublimation or incineration. That is not something that merely happens to people who are vulnerable, it's something that happens to all solids.

As such there is a direct contradiction between the physics/rules of this world and of the 3.5 world. This is just an example of many such contradictions.


What you are saying is the equivilent to me saying "all humans are immune to magic effects including compulsion, as are all objects and the environment of the real world". That is not an unreasonable assertion - for all we know it may be true (where I think we know with some certainty that there is nothing that it immune to heat). If I make this assertion, I could use your above words, but exchange a few words as so:


Following your earlier example, magic isn't inherently damaging or lethal; DnD creatures are just vulnerable to it. Real world humans are immune to the negative effects of magic, but that doesn't make magic any different.

of course you must object to everything in the real world being immune to magic, because it denies the wizard his power (effectively, even though he can still use magic were anyone vulnerable around) making the scenario a farce. But what you propose (having 3.5 rules trump real world rules at every turn) also makes the scenario a farce.

[Liquor Box]

The general assumption for things like this is that the real-world thing is represented with game statistics. The rules of D&D can be easily used to simulate the IRL Chinese army and all their weapons, but there's no baseline for knowing how a D&D character adheres to the rules of reality.

Our options are "real world thing is simulated using PF rules", "PF thing is simulated using real-world rules", or "real world thing and PF thing are simulated with a system of rules that oerfectly adheres to both IRL physics and PF rules". The third case is basically impossible to discuss, because RAW isn't fully on speaking terms with physicsor common sense; the second case is basically impossibleto discuss because the conversation would begin and end with "magic is impossible IRL, so they can't do magic"; only the first case, where everything is put into PF rules, can we have some idda of how the conflict would go down.

Rather than saying "putting things into pathfinder rules" it would be better to say "using a pathfinder rules system to govern both sides". The difference is, in my view, that not all conflicts between the real world and pathfinder must be resolved in pathfinder's favour. The pathfinder rules could accomodate, I assume, the concept of sufficient heat causing death regardless of spell protection. It could handle the concept of alternative planes not existing. etc

[AvatarVecna]

making the scenario a farce

This seems to be the crux of the issue, which I brought up earlier: this topic (D&D thing IRL) is difficult to discuss because D&D works far too differently from reality; we either have to say one trumps the other (and deal with the ensuing whining from whichever side is getting the shaft) or we have to cobble together a system where D&D mechanics and physics can coexist without imploding. Naturally, putting up with some whining is far easier than attempting to design a system of rules that is fair to both 3.5 and physics. From there, we look at both sides and ask "if this side took precedence over the other side as a general rule, would that be easy to understand and would it lead to interesting discussion?"

If real-life physics takes precedence over D&D mechanics, we either have to figure out how magic adheres to physical laws, or we have to declare that it doesn't work because magic doesn't exist IRL. Magic that makes sense according to physics is difficult to understand, and declaring that magic just doesn't work IRL is not interesting to discuss.

Now, if D&D mechanics takes precedence over IRL physics, we have to figure out what the effective stats of IRL people are, or we have to declare that technology doesn't function because magic. The latter would require explaining why magic screws with nearby technology (difficult to explain properly) and would be boring to discuss anyway; the former (statting up IRL things) is easy; hell, half the work is done for us! Guns are already a thing in Pathfinder, and the well-known Alexandrian article "Calibrating Your Expectations" (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/587/roleplaying-games/dd-calibrating-your-expectations-2) does a good job explaining why IRL people probably aren't ever more than the equivalent of 6th lvl or so. Using the rules of D&D, we can simulate real-world things in a way that's both simple to discuss and can lead to interesting discussion.

Edit: Just saying "well, sometimes one can have precedence and the other won't" isn't going to actually solve anything, because it gets people arguing about whether their precedent is more important than yours. There's no such thing as fire immunity IRL, so Wizards who have spelled themselves to be immune to fire shouldn't be able to bathe in lava, since that would kill a person IRL, right? But then, does that mean that a fire elemental (also immune to fire damage) is also not actually immune to heat? And if you say "well, the fire elemental is immune because it's made of fire, so fire doesn't hurt it", what if the wizard (who is a squishy human who cannot survive contact with lava) shapechanges into a fire elemental? Would a lava bath still kill him, since that's just him giving himself a buff for Fire Immunity, or should he live because now he's a fire elemental?

[Liquor Box]

That requires doing magical things with technology to be possible; an assumption unsupported by the lack of such effects in the technological side of the various RPG systems or indeed, the lack of a known planar cosmology in real world as we know it as well as non-magical d20 variants. Chances are magic can do things that are impossible without it and thus the Chinese Army will, no matter how advanced, have to face an adversary with capabilities they can never match. Indeed, that tends to be the very definition of magic; producing matter/energy out of thin air, moving things instantaneously, creating worlds, ending worlds, resurrecting the dead, travelling back in time, et cetera. D&D magic at least doesn't seem to be superadvanced technology given all it takes is some arcane handwaving, bat guano and few choice words to shatter conservation of energy.

First, I don't think that particular assertion on my part does require an assumption that it is possible to do magical things with technology. The idea that nuclear blast kills all things is not putting a magical property on it - that's simply what it does. My proposition is that we cannot assume that magic resists a nuclear blast.

Second, I disagree that there is little evidence of technology being able to replicate magic effects. In several DnD settings (this may not apply to pthfinder I admit) there are technological effects that replicate magic - I recall a gnome steam powered vessel from Dragonlance that went to the moon. Likewise, in real life we are able to do things that would appear magical to DnD people, like instant communication across continents.


Anyways, if codifying things as rules, DnD has the rule of specific trumping general. That's how all immunities work. So if we have a rule "nukes kill everything" and another rule "doesn't die", "doesn't die" trumps the "kill everything" since "kill everything" is a generic effect that tries to do precisely what the immunity protects from; this applies regardless what system which rule comes from. Though this is a rather strange way to codify nukes: there are plenty of known nuclear survivors after all (of course not at the exact ground zero and these are from small oldschool fission bombs, not modern fusion bombs). Nukes just cause intense heat and extreme radiation; vast majority of the fatalities are due to heat. Lethal radiation overdose is a minor factor. If we have a Wizard who is utterly immune to heat, bringing out Radiation would be relevant but chances are radiation falls under some type of actual damage or attribute damage and is thus irrelevant with magical protections that address those generic categories

Actually I think "kills everything" and "doesn't die" are equally general. A rule saying "immune to nukes" would be more specific than "kills everything", but I'm not sure there is such a rule in pathfinder.

On the other hand, it seems to me that radiation damage is quite specific - how does heat immunity help with it?


However, I posit that's all irrelevant too. As long as the Wizard's magic functions, I posit we can solve this in favor of the Wizard in any number of ways without a single shot being fired (at the real Wizard; shots are fired constantly in the real world so that probably can't be prevented in the short term). Being able to talk with deities, gate in angels, travel planes, teleport, become incorporeal, astrally project, resurrect, produce self-replicating undead, see the future, rewrite minds, etc. without needing any real equipment to speak of is all just on such a different level of power compared to anything our world has access to at the present that it is a non-contest. Like, even other similarly empowered creatures have trouble harming each other; let alone anyone unable to cast Disjunction.

It's possible you are right. The wizard may prevail even if we have an equal playing field - which is why I wonder why people are arguing so hard against it.

Here though, you are addressing winning through less direct means. The next poster makes the same point, so I will address my answer to him so you can both see it.


Hell, even assuming it being physically possible to access other planes of existence...how long would it take for the world's best scientists to figure out how to access them? Without a real place to start (they probably don't have convenient deities to ask), pretty damn long I wager. 5 years? 10 years? Longer? We don't exactly have much for the physicists to go off; they'd have to create something from scratch. And then go from that to actually building usable technology to that end and then building scanners to actually locate extraplanar creatures and then to find this one particular creature on some plane... I don't see it happening in the time it takes for a Wizard to learn what he wishes to learn and then her projections, planar bound/gated fiends and company to dominate everybody relevant and bring about a nuclear apocalypse, shadowcalypse, wightocalypse, global flood, barren Earth or whatever (though I still don't get why she'd do that).

Well before we go into all that, we have to assume other planes of existence exist - a triumph for pathfinder rules over what we know of the real world. If other planes did exist, and science knew about, who knows how long it would take to plane shift, if we could at all. How long would they have? That depends on the scenario (which I set out in the second part of the post you quoted). In the scenario posited by the original poster they would have no time at all - the real world would simply suddenly function by DnD rules and have a wizard on it who was the only one who knew the rules. In my alternative scenario - they'd have thousands of years - the Chinese civilization would always existed on the alternative world with planes and magic, and would have learned how those concepts work (although not using magic themselves because that would make the concept pointless).

[Liquor Box]

Even if you kept the "rules" that modern rifles can instantly kill anything they hit and Nukes vaporize anything in their area with no chance of survival Etherial or not, I'd still be placing my bets on the Wizard once he starts playing Subtle. Nobody is going to nuke their own country for one unknown pointy hat guy and rifles arent going to do much against an invisible gnat controling people from hundreds of yards away.

I think that's a bit of a different scenario from the wizard fighting the army though. I think there are a lot of (mostly bad) movies and other fiction about an evil being with special powers (often mind control) trying to take over the government.

[Liquor Box]

This seems to be the crux of the issue, which I brought up earlier: this topic (D&D thing IRL) is difficult to discuss because D&D works far too differently from reality; we either have to say one trumps the other (and deal with the ensuing whining from whichever side is getting the shaft) or we have to cobble together a system where D&D mechanics and physics can coexist without imploding. Naturally, putting up with some whining is far easier than attempting to design a system of rules that is fair to both 3.5 and physics. From there, we look at both sides and ask "if this side took precedence over the other side as a general rule, would that be easy to understand and would it lead to interesting discussion?"

If real-life physics takes precedence over D&D mechanics, we either have to figure out how magic adheres to physical laws, or we have to declare that it doesn't work because magic doesn't exist IRL. Magic that makes sense according to physics is difficult to understand, and declaring that magic just doesn't work IRL is not interesting to discuss.

Now, if D&D mechanics takes precedence over IRL physics, we have to figure out what the effective stats of IRL people are, or we have to declare that technology doesn't function because magic. The latter would require explaining why magic screws with nearby technology (difficult to explain properly) and would be boring to discuss anyway; the former (statting up IRL things) is easy; hell, half the work is done for us! Guns are already a thing in Pathfinder, and the well-known Alexandrian article "Calibrating Your Expectations" (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/587/roleplaying-games/dd-calibrating-your-expectations-2) does a good job explaining why IRL people probably aren't ever more than the equivalent of 6th lvl or so. Using the rules of D&D, we can simulate real-world things in a way that's both simple to discuss and can lead to interesting discussion.

Edit: Just saying "well, sometimes one can have precedence and the other won't" isn't going to actually solve anything, because it gets people arguing about whether their precedent is more important than yours. There's no such thing as fire immunity IRL, so Wizards who have spelled themselves to be immune to fire shouldn't be able to bathe in lava, since that would kill a person IRL, right? But then, does that mean that a fire elemental (also immune to fire damage) is also not actually immune to heat? And if you say "well, the fire elemental is immune because it's made of fire, so fire doesn't hurt it", what if the wizard (who is a squishy human who cannot survive contact with lava) shapechanges into a fire elemental? Would a lava bath still kill him, since that's just him giving himself a buff for Fire Immunity, or should he live because now he's a fire elemental?

I agree with most of that except the bolded statement. The problem is that if we put everything in pathfinder terms (and don't give the chinese the opportunity to adapt to the new rules of the game) there is not much interesting discussion - the wizard simply wins. I also think it is just as easy to impose real world rules - but equally boring because then the wizard simply loses.

But you are right that there is no good alternative. The middle ground I proposed (and you address in your edit) is not a practical alternative because who is going to design the hybrid rules - there will certainly be no consensus.

[AvatarVecna]

I agree with most of that except the bolded statement. The problem is that if we put everything in pathfinder terms (and don't give the chinese the opportunity to adapt to the new rules of the game) there is not much interesting discussion - the wizard simply wins. I also think it is just as easy to impose real world rules - but equally boring because then the wizard simply loses.

But you are right that there is no good alternative. The middle ground I proposed (and you address in your edit) is not a practical alternative because who is going to design the hybrid rules - there will certainly be no consensus.

Honestly, the thing that makes this entire discussion difficult to have is that Wizards can be cheesed out enough to auto-win against our entire planet. I think if we limited the higher-op stuff, putting everything into D&D mechanics and discussing what happens would be much easier and more interesting. Of course, then we'd have an argument about what constitutes "high-op"...

I think the best way to limit the cheese factor would be to not allow full casters. Best you can get is a 6th lvl caster like a Bard. Yeah, that would be an interesting discussion: a PF Bard 20 appears in some secluded part of China, with a Geas placed on them to either take down the Chinese government, or to take over the world, or something similar. Using their relatively limited spellcasting, martial prowess, and utility belt full of skill tricks, can they succeed?

[Yahzi]

Imagine how they'd react to seeing modern tech like a car or plane. Those would blow their medieval little minds. They'd probably end up insane.
Not even. They're wizards; they would look at a plane and ask why you can't roll it up for easy storage like their flying carpet. And no one who has ever dealt with a Slaad is going to have trouble with technology.
But the wizard loses anyway. Eventually the Chinese Intelligence forces send somebody to seduce him and inject him with a polonium pellet.

[ryu]

Not even. They're wizards; they would look at a plane and ask why you can't roll it up for easy storage like their flying carpet. And no one who has ever dealt with a Slaad is going to have trouble with technology.
But the wizard loses anyway. Eventually the Chinese Intelligence forces send somebody to seduce him and inject him with a polonium pellet.

How do you intend to seduce someone fully capable summoning and having safe sex with succubi? Much less someone who can read your mind before you get in injecting distance?

[AvatarVecna]

How do you intend to seduce someone fully capable summoning and having safe sex with succubi? Much less someone who can read your mind before you get in injecting distance?

Between a Fort save far beyond anything anybody IRL could expect and more than likely possessing a poison immunity, I would think the Wizard wouldn't even care that much if somebody attempted such a thing on them. At most you'd get a bemused reaction.

[Xar Zarath]

..how long would it take for the world's best scientists to figure out how to access them? Without a real place to start (they probably don't have convenient deities to ask), pretty damn long I wager...years? Longer? We don't exactly have much for the physicists to go off; they'd have to create something from scratch. And then go from that to actually building usable technology to that end and then building scanners to actually locate extraplanar creatures and then to find this one particular creature on some plane...

Thank you for also stating this. While for this scenario magic works on Earth, it would take a considerably long time for scientists here to develop something that even remotely touches on magic as we have no prior evidence or studies that can be rooted in sufficiently analysed and repeatable theory for our peoples to even come close to working prototypes of spells.

Thus the Wizard would have a long time, long enough to smash the army and control whatever he wants in order to make sure no one can ever challenge his might.


...Eventually the Chinese Intelligence forces send somebody to seduce him and inject him with a polonium pellet.

Hehe between succubi/incubi, sexy genies and dryads, nymphs and more which a Level 20 Wizard can bind to his will without trouble, I think the seducing part doesn't even come close. Moreover Immunity is a thing, especially with a few items even a Wiard 20 can come up with Poison Immunity and probably a custom spell of Radiation Immunity.

[Segev]

"Roman iron swords could cut through the bronze and leather armor of their lesser foes" doesn't translate to "Roman iron swords can cut through US Tank armor."

Similarly, "Chinese bullets can pierce flesh and cause fatal wounds to normal humans" does not translate to "Chinese bullets can pierce Superman's skin."

Heck, replace "a wizard" with "the Starship Enterprise." Are we denying China their "abilities" if we say that the Enterprise's shields are impervious to their 9mm bullets (which would be fatal to a human being)? No.


"Heat normally kills people; how can you say you're using real-world physics when you let the wizard's immunity to fire trump that?" is a silly question. I'm sorry, it really is. Not everything is affected equally by heat. Water is a liquid at room temperature; steel is not. Steel and gold have different melting points. Temperatures of 100 degrees F will kill a number of microbes (bacteria, viruses, etc) but are survivable (if uncomfortable) for a human (see: fever as an immune response).

The wizard's fire immunity may well be using a magical means to diffuse the heat before it touches his vulnerable flesh. Or it might be rendering his flesh unburnable. It's not saying "magic trumps our laws of physics." It's saying "magic works as the wizard expects, and our tech works as we expect."

Nothing the wizard is doing is changing our capabilities. Not without direct action by the wizard, at least. (The converse being that if we somehow tied up the wizard and he was dumb enough not to have means of casting without moving his hands, we would stop him from using his powers.)

We are running off the equal assumption that all sides have their tools, techniques, and powers work as they expect them to. They may not have the effects they expect on the other side, but that's due to the other side's abilities.

The wizard might expect disintegrate to remove the entire threat posed by that metal monster bearing down on him. When a bunch of soldiers stumble to the ground and open fire when their APC vanishes from around them, the wizard's disintegrate power hasn't been "denied" by the world. It just didn't have the EFFECT he expected.

[Strigon]

But the wizard loses anyway. Eventually the Chinese Intelligence forces send somebody to seduce him and inject him with a polonium pellet.

Even if the Wizard really needed human company that badly, he should have high enough Wisdom not to trust anyone who comes near him, and he should also know that he can buff his Charisma enough to pick someone - almost anyone - on his terms.

[ryu]

Even if the Wizard really needed human company that badly, he should have high enough Wisdom not to trust anyone who comes near him, and he should also know that he can buff his Charisma enough to pick someone - almost anyone - on his terms.

And that's assuming he's the kind of good, kindhearted person who wants people to do things of their own will. Not necessarily a given when all you've defined is class.

[Segev]

Yeah, let's be honest. A wizard even slightly south of G on the moral axis might well habitually charm or suggest their newest acquaintances into revealing any ulterior motives. One who is still mostly north of N might let out that leash shortly thereafter on those who prove trustworthy, not wanting to enslave people as a general rule, but it's invaluable for rooting out spies as they try to insert themselves. If you're paranoid, you do that, or you are very slow to trust anybody.

[Liquor Box]

"Roman iron swords could cut through the bronze and leather armor of their lesser foes" doesn't translate to "Roman iron swords can cut through US Tank armor."
Agreed


Similarly, "Chinese bullets can pierce flesh and cause fatal wounds to normal humans" does not translate to "Chinese bullets can pierce Superman's skin."
Agreed


Heck, replace "a wizard" with "the Starship Enterprise." Are we denying China their "abilities" if we say that the Enterprise's shields are impervious to their 9mm bullets (which would be fatal to a human being)? No.

Agreed. I also wouldn't object to a tank being impervious to bullets. I don't think there is anything inconsistent with real world physics about some objects being impervious to gunfire.

I don;t know what any of this has to do with anything I have said though. Yes some armour protect better against swords than others. Yes some objects are impervious to gun fire.


"Heat normally kills people; how can you say you're using real-world physics when you let the wizard's immunity to fire trump that?" is a silly question. I'm sorry, it really is. Not everything is affected equally by heat. Water is a liquid at room temperature; steel is not. Steel and gold have different melting points. Temperatures of 100 degrees F will kill a number of microbes (bacteria, viruses, etc) but are survivable (if uncomfortable) for a human (see: fever as an immune response).

It's true that not everything is effected equally by heat (although all human flesh probably is with some slight variation), but everything is effected by it nonetheless. Steel and water and gold and microbes and humans are all effected by heat, just different degrees of heat. But a wizard with immunity from heat damage is not effected by heat.

I don;t see why it is silly. If it's the particular example you object to, by all means I can propose another. There are a huge number of direct contradictions between 3.5 rules and real world 'rules'.


The wizard's fire immunity may well be using a magical means to diffuse the heat before it touches his vulnerable flesh. Or it might be rendering his flesh unburnable. It's not saying "magic trumps our laws of physics." It's saying "magic works as the wizard expects, and our tech works as we expect."

So not only does magic trump physics, we are rewriting the way certain spells work so we can justify it trumping physics?

"our tech works as we expect"? So if we heat the wizard with fire immunity up enough he will die? Or not? Which is it?

We are running off the equal assumption that all sides have their tools, techniques, and powers work as they expect them to. They may not have the effects they expect on the other side, but that's due to the other side's abilities

The wizard might expect disintegrate to remove the entire threat posed by that metal monster bearing down on him. When a bunch of soldiers stumble to the ground and open fire when their APC vanishes from around them, the wizard's disintegrate power hasn't been "denied" by the world. It just didn't have the EFFECT he expected.

What if disintegrate didn't effect the tank at all, because depleted uranium armour was not something contemplated by the spell disintergrate and it turns out to be immune?

This is an example of you approaching this from the angle of the real world rules (where depleted uranium is nigh impregnable) being trumped by 3.5 rules.


Nothing the wizard is doing is changing our capabilities. Not without direct action by the wizard, at least. (The converse being that if we somehow tied up the wizard and he was dumb enough not to have means of casting without moving his hands, we would stop him from using his powers.)

Yes, it is changing our capabilities. First you are adding an entire new source of power (magic). Second you are adding an entire new envrionement (plances etc). Third you are ruling that we are susceptible to the new power. Fourth, you are ruling that the new power trumps real world physics in numerous ways. Fifth, you are saying that the real world has not been aware of the new source of power, and has had no opportunity to adjust its technology or tactics to account for it. Presumably it does not even know the rules of the new game. Fifth you (or others in this thread at least) have said the wizard arrives on the adjusted earth knowing his purpose and having months to prepare with divinations before the chinese even know there is an otherworldly threat.

Are lvl 20 pathfinder wizards really so helpless that you need to stack the deck in their favour to that extent.

[Strigon]

Yes, it is changing our capabilities. First you are adding an entire new source of power (magic).

Doesn't affect our capabilities in any way. We can still do everything we could do without magic.

Second you are adding an entire new envrionement (plances etc).

Doesn't affect our capabilities in any way. We can still do everything we could do without the planes.

Third you are ruling that we are susceptible to the new power.
Would it be more reasonable to assume that we aren't? Because if so, then we'd have to also assume the Wizard is also not susceptible to our world's physics, and then nobody can hurt anybody.

Fourth, you are ruling that the new power trumps real world physics in numerous ways.
Yes, mostly because a part of the Wizard's power is explicitly to be able to trump physics. If we say one being can make itself immune to bullets, that doesn't change the capabilities of the Chinese Army. If, however, we say that spells don't work, that definitely changes the capabilities of the Wizard.

Fifth, you are saying that the real world has not been aware of the new source of power, and has had no opportunity to adjust its technology or tactics to account for it. Presumably it does not even know the rules of the new game.
We're also saying the Wizard doesn't know what the Chinese army is; what's your point?

Fifth you (or others in this thread at least) have said the wizard arrives on the adjusted earth knowing his purpose and having months to prepare with divinations before the chinese even know there is an otherworldly threat.
I missed whoever said that, but it doesn't really matter. The Wizard still wins, hands down, without this help. But it's also entirely reasonable for the Wizard to have all this information, when the Chinese wouldn't - the Wizard can get information from other worlds, whereas the Chinese can't.


Are lvl 20 pathfinder wizards really so helpless that you need to stack the deck in their favour to that extent.
No, they aren't. But this is what the question asked, so this is what we're talking about. What a Wizard would do in a world where physics trump magic (which is basically saying there is no magic), or where bullets affect incorporeal creatures, or where we can see invisible creatures is an entirely different question from the one being asked here.

[InvisibleBison]

Fifth, you are saying that the real world has not been aware of the new source of power, and has had no opportunity to adjust its technology or tactics to account for it. Presumably it does not even know the rules of the new game.

I have to take exception to this particular line of argument. If the real world knew about Pathfinder style magic and was able to exploit it, it would stop being the real wold. If, as you suggested earlier in the thread, the "real world" became aware of magic in the distant past, the "present day" would be completely unrecognizable. I'm sure there are many, many examples of incidents in Chinese history where the presence of a wizard would have radically changed things. Even if the real world only found out about magic a month before the wizard arrived, that's enough time for someone to go from 1st to 20th level, especially if he can spar with other people also rising in level instead of relying on hunting animals for XP. In this case, the situation becomes "What would happen if one 20th level wizard decided to attack a bunch of 20th level wizards?", which is a fundamentally different question.

[Liquor Box]

I have to take exception to this particular line of argument. If the real world knew about Pathfinder style magic and was able to exploit it, it would stop being the real wold. If, as you suggested earlier in the thread, the "real world" became aware of magic in the distant past, the "present day" would be completely unrecognizable. I'm sure there are many, many examples of incidents in Chinese history where the presence of a wizard would have radically changed things. Even if the real world only found out about magic a month before the wizard arrived, that's enough time for someone to go from 1st to 20th level, especially if he can spar with other people also rising in level instead of relying on hunting animals for XP. In this case, the situation becomes "What would happen if one 20th level wizard decided to attack a bunch of 20th level wizards?", which is a fundamentally different question.

I understand your objection here.

First, I am not suggesting the Chinese army would use magic itself.

What it should be allowed to do is somewhat a question of degree.

I think it should be given the opportunity to develop technological solutions to problems presented in the magical world. For examples, if we accept that DnD planes exist, then perhaps the Chinese are able to come to a technological way of dealing with the planes. Likewise things like incorporalty.

But that still falls foul of your objection (that the resulting army would be different to the chinese army as it exists) and of Avator Vecna's practical concern (how can anyone ever know what the Chinese Army would have been able to do. However, despite those concersn and the impracticality of the above, I think that is the only fair way for this contest to go.

But at the very least I think the Chinese should be made aware of magic's existence and general function and have the opportunity to respond to its existence. For example, if it was aware that persons capable of mental domination type spells existed, it would probably put a whole lot of protocols in place to minimise that risk.

The scenario that some seem to be envisaging seems to deny them the opportunity to do even this last thing.

Another problem, that has only become apparent to me on this page, is that most people are thinking of themselves as 'playing the wizard', and therefore imagining the wizard being designed and played in an optimal way. For example, "no the wizard would not want to root the hot chinese girl, it would much rather fabricate some magical alternative" - that may the optimal way to play in this scenario, but I suspect it is not how most wizards would react (including super intelligent wizards). I would be interested if some of the people championing the wizard imagined themselves 'playing' the Chinese, against the wizard NPC.

[awa]

there is no need for months of preparation many of the wizard attacks can be performed with a single casting and no particular forethought. a shadow can reproduce so fast and are immune to all conventional weapons that even if they could hurt them with a laser or something it wouldn't matter they would be hitching rides in subways and plains and just flying overland to quickly to stop.

The army is doomed becuase the wizard has dozens of different ways it can attack the army ready to go each of which would require invention of entirely new technologies to counter. They cant win if the wizard uses the best tools they have available.

Sure you could design a game or write a book where they can develop a counter to magic with a week of r&d or you decide that depleted uranium is magic proof or whatever but we could just as easily say that magic disrupts technology and the mere presence of the wizard causes the entire country to collapse. But those kinds of statements are pointless becuase it has no shared assumptions. A wizards immunity to fire making him immune to fire is something we can agree on as a community so its a useful.

.
you could argue that an effect not in the game but good luck finding one
take a nuke for instance that's fire, radiations, sonic, and blunt
radiation is a poison in pf and thus easy to become immune to,

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/traps-hazards-and-special-terrains/hazards/environmental-hazards/radiation

fire and sonic are both energy types and thus easy to be immune to, and blunt is physical damge each of which can be negated by spells no build necessary just a couple of spells.

edit
the only way for the Chinese to have a chance is if the wizard makes a mistake even if the Chinese do everything perfect they still cant win unless the wizard makes a massive miscalculation they are basically entirely reactionary (barring a sympathetic dm/ writer that changes the rules in their favor). The wizard has so many different ways he can attack to which there is no defense that for many of them particularly the shadows they cant do anything even if he tells them the rules and explains his plans to them in advance

[Strigon]

Another problem, that has only become apparent to me on this page, is that most people are thinking of themselves as 'playing the wizard', and therefore imagining the wizard being designed and played in an optimal way. For example, "no the wizard would not want to root the hot chinese girl, it would much rather fabricate some magical alternative" - that may the optimal way to play in this scenario, but I suspect it is not how most wizards would react (including super intelligent wizards).

Why do you say that?
You've already admitted that the Wizard is super intelligent - not even very intelligent, but intelligent beyond human limits. We can also assume he is, if not equally wise, then still extraordinarily wise.
Why, then, do you suspect that this Wizard would not do things in an optimal way? Especially when the optimal way has the same outcome - or possibly a better one - for very, very little extra work?

[awa]

using the girl assassin example even if the wizard is so inclined it has far to many points of failure
between teleportation and plane shifting the wizard can find girls not just anywhere on earth but on may different realities as well. Between magically boosted charisma and alter self or for the non good charm person or planner binding he has no difficulty finding a partner.

You could try and send a girl to seduce him but finding him without magic of your own is virtually impossible and she has to compete with enties that are literally super-humanly beautiful so that's not really viable.

Between divination,and enchantments detecting an assassin without magical protection is trivial even relatively low level spells can do it
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/detect-anxieties

but even if you somehow manged to get him to pick your assassin from all the girls in the multiverse and he somehow didn't bother to check her in any way polonium is radiation, radiation in pathfinder is poison, and even if somehow he had no protection from poison curing poison is trivial for a level 20 wizard

that plan requires multiple staggeringly incompetent actions on the wizards part and superhuman skill on the part of the Chinese to even have a chance and even then it fails anyways

[Xar Zarath]

Yeah, let's be honest. A wizard even slightly south of G on the moral axis might well habitually charm or suggest their newest acquaintances into revealing any ulterior motives. One who is still mostly north of N might let out that leash shortly thereafter on those who prove trustworthy, not wanting to enslave people as a general rule, but it's invaluable for rooting out spies as they try to insert themselves. If you're paranoid, you do that, or you are very slow to trust anybody.

A reasonable assumption is that once a Wizard reaches 20, he either is a happy go lucky immortal who takes chances because he can and has enough contingencies to pop back up again...or he is someone who habitually enslaves others because he doesn't trust anyone but himself and maintains a suitable amount of slaves and minions ready to spring to action.

Mind all those who have posted but so far we haven't even stated out the gear that a 20th Wizard would have brought along for the fight, not to mention the ramifications if one of those items were left around for us to find?

[Segev]

"our tech works as we expect"? So if we heat the wizard with fire immunity up enough he will die? Or not? Which is it?Moving the goal posts.

I said our tech works as we expect it to. I didn't say it affects the wizard as we hope it will.

The guns don't stop working just because superman is there. They fire. They will still kill a normal man as they normally would. Superman is just impervious to the bullets.

The flamethrower still produces fire exactly as our science/technology/engineering tells us it should. It uses fuel and creates exactly the amount of heat we expect it to. It will burn a normal man, a woman (falsely) accused of witchcraft by the Inquisition, and boil exactly as much water as the calories of heat we generate should. It will not burn the wizard, not because it's failing to generate the heat, but because the wizard is impervious to burning. Just like the gun still works in superman's presence, but superman is immune to the bullets.



What if disintegrate didn't effect the tank at all, because depleted uranium armour was not something contemplated by the spell disintergrate and it turns out to be immune?Find me a property of depleted uranium that says it is impervious to a disintegration effect that impacts "lesser" matter as disintegration does, and we can have a discussion. Otherwise, you're making things up. Which is fine, if you're writing the fiction, but it is moving the goal posts from the original post's scenario.

Are lvl 20 pathfinder wizards really so helpless that you need to stack the deck in their favour to that extent."Is Micheal Phelps so helpless in the water that you need to stack the deck in his favor by not replacing the water in the pool with quicksand and removing the oxygen from the air around him?"

Seriously, you're arguing for making the PF wizard not a wizard. When you remove the wizard's ability to do magic, or have his magic work as written, you're making him not a PF level 20 wizard. You're making him something else. And you're no longer answering the question posed in the OP.



"Who wins in a fight between a Jedi and the current UFC World Champion when light sabers and the Force don't work?" is not the same question as "Who wins in a fight between a Jedi and the current UFC World Champion?"

Claiming that letting a Jedi be a Jedi is "stacking the deck" is basically admitting that the answer to the question is, "the Jedi wins unless you handicap him to the point that he isn't really a Jedi anymore."

[Quertus]

"Roman iron swords could cut through the bronze and leather armor of their lesser foes" doesn't translate to "Roman iron swords can cut through US Tank armor."

Similarly, "Chinese bullets can pierce flesh and cause fatal wounds to normal humans" does not translate to "Chinese bullets can pierce Superman's skin."

Heck, replace "a wizard" with "the Starship Enterprise." Are we denying China their "abilities" if we say that the Enterprise's shields are impervious to their 9mm bullets (which would be fatal to a human being)? No.


"Heat normally kills people; how can you say you're using real-world physics when you let the wizard's immunity to fire trump that?" is a silly question. I'm sorry, it really is. Not everything is affected equally by heat. Water is a liquid at room temperature; steel is not. Steel and gold have different melting points. Temperatures of 100 degrees F will kill a number of microbes (bacteria, viruses, etc) but are survivable (if uncomfortable) for a human (see: fever as an immune response).

The wizard's fire immunity may well be using a magical means to diffuse the heat before it touches his vulnerable flesh. Or it might be rendering his flesh unburnable. It's not saying "magic trumps our laws of physics." It's saying "magic works as the wizard expects, and our tech works as we expect."

Nothing the wizard is doing is changing our capabilities. Not without direct action by the wizard, at least. (The converse being that if we somehow tied up the wizard and he was dumb enough not to have means of casting without moving his hands, we would stop him from using his powers.)

We are running off the equal assumption that all sides have their tools, techniques, and powers work as they expect them to. They may not have the effects they expect on the other side, but that's due to the other side's abilities.

The wizard might expect disintegrate to remove the entire threat posed by that metal monster bearing down on him. When a bunch of soldiers stumble to the ground and open fire when their APC vanishes from around them, the wizard's disintegrate power hasn't been "denied" by the world. It just didn't have the EFFECT he expected.

Thank you for explaining this idea so clearly. I couldn't find any way to explain that idea without a level of snark that borders on vitriol, without screaming, "my eyes, my eyes, they're blocked by this wall! Magic trumping science!"



I think it should be given the opportunity to develop technological solutions to problems presented in the magical world. For examples, if we accept that DnD planes exist, then perhaps the Chinese are able to come to a technological way of dealing with the planes. Likewise things like incorporalty.

We've had time (yes, I mean the concept of time itself) for... how long? And do we have technological ways to counter time travel? Government procedures in place to deal with a chromatic assault? No? Therefore, I conclude that the Chinese army won't be able to "counter" the planes with technology in any reasonable timeframe.

But we already have plenty of ways to counter incorporeal. No need to develop anything. Wizard relying on incorporeal dies.


But that still falls foul of your objection (that the resulting army would be different to the chinese army as it exists) and of Avator Vecna's practical concern (how can anyone ever know what the Chinese Army would have been able to do. However, despite those concersn and the impracticality of the above, I think that is the only fair way for this contest to go.

But at the very least I think the Chinese should be made aware of magic's existence and general function and have the opportunity to respond to its existence. For example, if it was aware that persons capable of mental domination type spells existed, it would probably put a whole lot of protocols in place to minimise that risk.

The scenario that some seem to be envisaging seems to deny them the opportunity to do even this last thing.

Yes, because that's the way this type of scenario is traditionally run. The two parties run into each other without foreknowledge. I made similar objections the first time I came across such a debate.

But, you're right, it makes the discussion not very interesting, because the wizard just wins. Usually, at least.

Let's say we try to fairly stack the deck against the wizard. Hmmm... both sides are on a team of, say, 100 current "forces". Both sides are given a book, containing a list of 100 possible foes, written as if by someone from their world trying to explain the other force. It is explained that they will randomly be paired up against one of these foes. Those foes could be anything from "zombie apocalypse" to "starship Enterprise".

They won't know which they will be facing... and some over deity level being blocks divisions regarding a) which threat they will be facing, and b) any changes between the time the instructions arrive and the time the challenge starts. Which will be, say, one month. So the wizard can only divine about the Chinese army (and the other 99 potential threats) as they were one month before the competition starts (and any time before that, if they want).

Each side knows that they will be transported to a world with no indigenous sentient life - anything which isn't them, they're free to kill (allowing scorched earth nuke tactics without ramifications, for example). Each world is somehow habitable to both parties, so they can live off the land if need be (reducing wizard's food advantage).

What else? Hmmm... some things that wouldn't make much sense to (or, at least, wouldn't be terribly applicable to) the wizard regarding the fact that the Chinese army cam being along their entire infrastructure: buildings, supply depos, nuclear silos, etc - and see the terrain ahead of time to place them strategically.

Now, it's not fair to the wizard to make the world a null magic zone, any more than its fair to send the Chinese army to certain D&D editions / worlds, where their technology would stop working. However, if we're stacking the deck fairly against the wizard, there's nothing guaranteeing that the chosen world will have the same planar layout as the wizard is accustomed to. Oh, you astral project everywhere, bound to your body by a silver cord through the astral plane? No astral plane? Guess what, you're physically here. All your teleportation and conjuration relies on the existence of specific planes? Guess what? Lol, nope.

Now, to be fair, certain things the Chinese military use rely on the existence of satellites - satellites which aren't present in this world. Of course, nothing prevents the Chinese from spending that month building replacements... or even having the military confiscate the existing satellites. Similar issue with other non military resources they may wish to bring with them.

But if they want to bring an oil rig (because that belongs to the military?), well, nothing guarantees that this world has oil, either.

-----

Even with the deck stacked this far in the Chinese army's favor, most of my example wizards would still have no difficulty defeating the Chinese army.

So, while a certain population of wizards might be weeded out by this stricter set of rules, I'd say the advantage still belongs to the wizard.


Another problem, that has only become apparent to me on this page, is that most people are thinking of themselves as 'playing the wizard', and therefore imagining the wizard being designed and played in an optimal way. For example, "no the wizard would not want to root the hot chinese girl, it would much rather fabricate some magical alternative" - that may the optimal way to play in this scenario, but I suspect it is not how most wizards would react (including super intelligent wizards). I would be interested if some of the people championing the wizard imagined themselves 'playing' the Chinese, against the wizard NPC.

Well, my PC wizards make a much more concrete, static target than "theoretical NPC wizard". But, yes, as a single person trying to run an entire army, I tried to imagine what options they would have.



you could argue that an effect not in the game but good luck finding one
take a nuke for instance that's fire, radiations, sonic, and blunt
radiation is a poison in pf and thus easy to become immune to,

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/traps-hazards-and-special-terrains/hazards/environmental-hazards/radiation

fire and sonic are both energy types and thus easy to be immune to, and blunt is physical damge each of which can be negated by spells no build necessary just a couple of spells.

edit
the only way for the Chinese to have a chance is if the wizard makes a mistake even if the Chinese do everything perfect they still cant win unless the wizard makes a massive miscalculation they are basically entirely reactionary (barring a sympathetic dm/ writer that changes the rules in their favor). The wizard has so many different ways he can attack to which there is no defense that for many of them particularly the shadows they cant do anything even if he tells them the rules and explains his plans to them in advance

I know nothing about Pathfinder. Is radiation something a Pathfinder wizard can reasonably expect to encounter? Something that they recognize (even if they call it "shaking sickness" or something equally representing their lack of comprehension of the underlying mechanics)? Something that their magic definitively interacts with in predefined ways?

Because, IRL, I don't think radiation is classified as a "poison". So, just because Pathfinder chooses to use the poison mechanics to explain it is inadequate, IMO, to guarantee how the wizard would interact with radiation sickness in this world, or, better still, in some arbitrary third world on which this contest takes place.


A reasonable assumption is that once a Wizard reaches 20, he either is a happy go lucky immortal who takes chances because he can and has enough contingencies to pop back up again...or he is someone who habitually enslaves others because he doesn't trust anyone but himself and maintains a suitable amount of slaves and minions ready to spring to action.

Mind all those who have posted but so far we haven't even stated out the gear that a 20th Wizard would have brought along for the fight, not to mention the ramifications if one of those items were left around for us to find?

Well, I think I can fairly well estimate what my characters have, will have, or used to have back at 20th level.

If a mundane found a magic item, IMO, the same thing would happen as if a no-transparency psion found a magic item: nothing.

[Liquor Box]

there is no need for months of preparation many of the wizard attacks can be performed with a single casting and no particular forethought. a shadow can reproduce so fast and are immune to all conventional weapons that even if they could hurt them with a laser or something it wouldn't matter they would be hitching rides in subways and plains and just flying overland to quickly to stop.

The army is doomed becuase the wizard has dozens of different ways it can attack the army ready to go each of which would require invention of entirely new technologies to counter. They cant win if the wizard uses the best tools they have available.

Sure you could design a game or write a book where they can develop a counter to magic with a week of r&d or you decide that depleted uranium is magic proof or whatever but we could just as easily say that magic disrupts technology and the mere presence of the wizard causes the entire country to collapse. But those kinds of statements are pointless becuase it has no shared assumptions. A wizards immunity to fire making him immune to fire is something we can agree on as a community so its a useful.

.
you could argue that an effect not in the game but good luck finding one
take a nuke for instance that's fire, radiations, sonic, and blunt
radiation is a poison in pf and thus easy to become immune to,

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/traps-hazards-and-special-terrains/hazards/environmental-hazards/radiation

fire and sonic are both energy types and thus easy to be immune to, and blunt is physical damge each of which can be negated by spells no build necessary just a couple of spells.

edit
the only way for the Chinese to have a chance is if the wizard makes a mistake even if the Chinese do everything perfect they still cant win unless the wizard makes a massive miscalculation they are basically entirely reactionary (barring a sympathetic dm/ writer that changes the rules in their favor). The wizard has so many different ways he can attack to which there is no defense that for many of them particularly the shadows they cant do anything even if he tells them the rules and explains his plans to them in advance

The essence of your post may be true - the wizard may well win even if the two opponents had a level playing field. Why then is there so much opposition to thetaking away the myriad of advantages that the scenario proposed give to the wizard.

[Strigon]

The essence of your post may be true - the wizard may well win even if the two opponents had a level playing field. Why then is there so much opposition to the level playing field?

Because that's not what the question is.
What happens when we level the playing field is a more interesting discussion, to be sure. But then again, so is the question of who would win in a brawl between Patrick Stewart and Sir Ian McKellen. However, since neither of those are the question at hand, we're only talking about a Wizard who is essentially immune to all mundane forms of harm, including nuclear blasts.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Here's a question: how could a level 20 wizard win without WBL (aside from +stat items) and nothing beyond feats, skills, higher level slots (for metamagic) and first level spells and cantrips?

[Liquor Box]

Why do you say that?
You've already admitted that the Wizard is super intelligent - not even very intelligent, but intelligent beyond human limits. We can also assume he is, if not equally wise, then still extraordinarily wise.

Your comments on intelligence (beyond human limits) are a decent example of you viewing both sides of the encounter through the DnD (or pathfinder) paradigm. I assume here that you are thinking of human intelligence (in the real world) as being capped at 18 (or 18 plus a couple more for level advancement). That may be the case for humans in DnD, but it is not for real world humans.

Intelligence 18 represents being the in the 99th percentile for intelligence - right in the middle of that percentile range (on the basis that because you have about a 1/200 chance of rolling a natural 18 with 3D6, 1 in every 200 humans will have base intelligence 18).

In the real world there are tens of millions of people (about 74 million) in the 99th percentile - so who would have 18 intelligence in DnD terms. Mensa takes membership only from people in the top percentile of intelligence - it translates the top percentile into people who have an iq of 135 or more. So 135 iq (iq being the most standard real world measure) would appear to roughly equate to 18 int (using the DnD measure).

But 135 iq is not the upper limit to human intelligence. 160iq represents the 99.997th percentile (so 3/100,000 people). There are 222,000 people in the world with 160 iq.

To translate the 160 iq into DnD terms, we can use the distance from the average. If 10 DnD Int relates to 100 real world iq (both representing the average - I will give you the half from DnD) and 18/135 represent the 99th percentile we can discern that each extra point of DnD int equates to approximately 4 extra iq. From this we can calculate that 160 iq is about intelligence 25. So there are hundreds of thousands of people in the real world with 25 intelligence.

But 160iq is not the upper limit either. The highest verified measured iq was 190 (32 Int in DnD terms). But that is not the upper limit either - William Sidis is said to have had an iq of between 250 and 300 (47 to 60 Int in DnD terms). This may wel be an exageration but there are several other in history (like Leonardo) who are estimated to have IQs well in excess of 200 (35 Int). Sidis was also said to have known over 40 languages, which would equate to an intelligence of over 90 in DnD terms (based on extra language per 2 points of int over 10).

Of course even 300 may not be the upper limit of what is not "beyond human limits" in the real world. Who knows what our real limitation is.

I expect you are assuming that the wizard's intelligence would be boosted by magic etc. But real world humans also commonly use intelligence boosts. Caffeine is the most common, but there are other stronger drugs, both legal and illegal. Does coffee boost intelligence more than a potion of fox's cunning? I have no idea.

The point here is not merely to refute you "wizard is smarter" assertion, which is probably largely irrelevant to the outcome anyway. The point is to provide another example of how DnD/pathfinder rules are being applied in a way that nerfs the real world.


Why, then, do you suspect that this Wizard would not do things in an optimal way? Especially when the optimal way has the same outcome - or possibly a better one - for very, very little extra work?

Intelligence in no way equates to making good common sense decisions, let alone optimal decisions. Stephen Hawking (generally acknowledged as being one of the more intelligent people in the world today (IQ160 - DnD Int 25 by the way) is widely reputed to live with a woman who (aside from not being very attractive) beats and abuses him. I'm sure Mr Hawking could have the same or better outcome for very little work.


I'm afraid I have a little trouble keeping up with all the replies. I will have to reply to others in due course.

[Liquor Box]

Because that's not what the question is.
What happens when we level the playing field is a more interesting discussion, to be sure. But then again, so is the question of who would win in a brawl between Patrick Stewart and Sir Ian McKellen. However, since neither of those are the question at hand, we're only talking about a Wizard who is essentially immune to all mundane forms of harm, including nuclear blasts.

Yes, I acknowledged several pages back (soon after Xar Zarath clarified the scenario he envisaged) that the question was one that stacked the deck against the chinese, by denying their weapons the effect they would ordinarily have, but by giving full effect to the wizard's powers. This conversation is the continuation of an aside (that started before Xar Zarath's clarification) as to how this scenario could be designed to not stackt he deck in favour of either side.

On re-reading my post (which i will edit for clarity), I see you may have misconstrued my meaning. I was not meaning that the playing field is uneven because the wizard is stronger (although that may also be true). I was meaning the the playing field was uneven because the circumstances and environment of the encounter favoured the wizard for reasons I have already mentioned, but will repeat here:

First you are adding an entire new source of power (magic). Second you are adding an entire new envrionement (plances etc). Third you are ruling that we are susceptible to the new power. Fourth, you are ruling that the new power trumps real world physics in numerous ways. Fifth, you are saying that the real world has not been aware of the new source of power, and has had no opportunity to adjust its technology or tactics to account for it. Presumably it does not even know the rules of the new game. Fifth you (or others in this thread at least) have said the wizard arrives on the adjusted earth knowing his purpose and having months to prepare with divinations before the chinese even know there is an otherworldly threat. Sixth, you are putting the wizard in the shoes of the PC, and optimising his build and actions.

[awa]

"I know nothing about Pathfinder. Is radiation something a Pathfinder wizard can reasonably expect to encounter? Something that they recognize (even if they call it "shaking sickness" or something equally representing their lack of comprehension of the underlying mechanics)? Something that their magic definitively interacts with in predefined ways?

Because, IRL, I don't think radiation is classified as a "poison". So, just because Pathfinder chooses to use the poison mechanics to explain it is inadequate, IMO, to guarantee how the wizard would interact with radiation sickness in this world, or, better still, in some arbitrary third world on which this contest takes place."
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/traps-hazards-and-special-terrains/hazards/environmental-hazards/radiation
depends on where you are, pathfinder has alien space ships and killer robots they had an entire adventure path about it want to say "iron gods" basically take a wrong turn and this can happen
http://paizo.com/image/content/PathfinderCampaignSetting/PZO9226-Numeria.jpg
fun fact invisibility protects you from lazers

[awa]

The essence of your post may be true - the wizard may well win even if the two opponents had a level playing field. Why then is there so much opposition to thetaking away the myriad of advantages that the scenario proposed give to the wizard.

Because we disagree with your premise that it is unbalanced. That allowing the wizard to break the laws of physics is unfair well, sorry that's what a PF wizard is. Besides having the fight in china is an advantage for the Chinese. You want to nerf them by giving them a long supply chain to? The wizard does not need months of divination to overcome the army he needs a single spell and the shadows every where no defense.

If he decides to get moths of divination the army cant do anything to stop it just has to sit there until he hits them becuase with planner travel he can strike at any time from a completely untouchable location and all they can do is sit there and take it.

Basically the only way the Chinese have a chance is if the wizard does something stupid its not about looking at it as a pc its looking at it from purely their own mechanical abilities.

[Mechalich]

The wizard does not need months of divination to overcome the army he needs a single spell and the shadows every where no defense.

I suspect this is actually part of the major source of the objection. Pathfinder and similar games have any number of items/abilities/creatures/etc where not having magic means complete failure, full stop.

'I go to a world with no magic and unleash the shadow apocalypse, winning!' tells us nothing about the relative capabilities of 20th level wizards or the armed forces of the People's Republic of China. All it says is that there's a no magic failure condition built into the scenario. This is particularly true given that anyone with a scroll can unleash the Shadow apocalypse on a non-magic world - having a 1st level rogue be capable of the same thing as a 20th level wizard simply reveals the absurdity of the scenario.

The way D&D and Pathfinder magic works a 20th level full caster cannot be beaten without a force that interacts with their magic, simply because that's how the rules are written. So it doesn't matter how powerful the opposing force is, if you don't allow them a mechanism to interact with magic, the Wizard is immune to everything they can do. That leads to situations like putting Elminster up against Dr. Strange and watching them stare at each other from behind impenetrable shields of non-interacting magical types until the heat death of the universe.

[awa]

I suspect this is actually part of the major source of the objection. Pathfinder and similar games have any number of items/abilities/creatures/etc where not having magic means complete failure, full stop.

'I go to a world with no magic and unleash the shadow apocalypse, winning!' tells us nothing about the relative capabilities of 20th level wizards or the armed forces of the People's Republic of China. All it says is that there's a no magic failure condition built into the scenario. This is particularly true given that anyone with a scroll can unleash the Shadow apocalypse on a non-magic world - having a 1st level rogue be capable of the same thing as a 20th level wizard simply reveals the absurdity of the scenario.

The way D&D and Pathfinder magic works a 20th level full caster cannot be beaten without a force that interacts with their magic, simply because that's how the rules are written. So it doesn't matter how powerful the opposing force is, if you don't allow them a mechanism to interact with magic, the Wizard is immune to everything they can do. That leads to situations like putting Elminster up against Dr. Strange and watching them stare at each other from behind impenetrable shields of non-interacting magical types until the heat death of the universe.

yeah but the problem is that the pathfinder rules and their depiction of reality are the only set guidelines we have for how these realities interact. (also shadows are pretty broken even if you do have magic) you could make a new thread saying how does a wizard fare against a modern army if we decide depleted uranium kills shadows but the wizards has just so many i win maneuvers that it would be quite complicated to nerf all of them.

Not to mention we don't have a set wizard were talking about its Schrodinger wizard and as long as that's the case all were doing is saying look how many different ways magic is broken with minimal effort.

the tactics of a good man fighting a war for some reason are going to look very different from one who only cares about winning.

[Segev]

I've always been interested in the concept of a "level playing field." Likewise, a "fair fight." What, exactly, does that mean?

I'm serious, here. Define these concepts.

Is it "leveling the playing field" in a fight between a wizard and a fighter to insist that both wear heavy armor, neither use spells, and they both use only specific, provided weapons? Or is that stacking the deck against the wizard? It certainly sounds like something that might be called a "fair fight" or "fighting with honor," on the grounds that magic is dishonorable or somehow unfair (but being physically stronger and better trained in the specific form of combat being prescribed as "fair" is not).

Is it "leveling the playing field" in a fight between a 10-year-old and Dwayne the Rock Johnson to give the 10-year-old a suit of power-armor? Or to tie Dwayne the Rock Johnson to a bed with restraints that make it impossible for him to move?

Is it "unfair" to have Usaine Bolt race without having weighted shoes and giving his opponents a head start? How heavy must the weights be? How much of a head start do they get, to make it "a level playing field?"


The contest is the contest. You can say that it is one-sided; I would agree: the proposed scenario, with the advantages and powers of the two sides, is very one-sided towards the wizard. He's the one who will become aware that there is something he does not know that he needs to learn first, and who can stay "under the radar" of the other side until he has an information advantage.

If you want to change the nature of the contest, you can. But "fair" is a strange, difficult-to-quantify word. Does "fair" mean "there's as close to a 50/50 shot that either side could win as possible?" If so, that's a very precise handicapping you have to do in designing your contest, and it almost certainly won't resemble the simple question the OP posed.

But to claim that it's "stacking the deck" is...spurious. I mean, sure, if the OP had deliberately set up constraints that aren't inherent to "take ye olde wizard and ye olde Chinese army and pit them against each other," you'd have a point. But the OP kind-of went into this with the assumption that he didn't know the answer ahead of time. (I suspect he at least suspected, given how this question's been asked about the US army in the past, but still.)

"Who would win in a fight between Deadpool and Batman?" might, upon analysis, seem stacked in one or the other's favor...but only once you know the answer to that question. If you don't know the answer, you've not deliberately stacked anything. You can recognize that it's not "stacked" by virtue of the assumptions being "they have what they have under normal circumstances, to start with."





I think, perhaps, the best alteration you could make to the scenario to give the Chinese Army a more even INFORMATIONAL footing without altering the Chinese Army or the wizard into being something other than what the labels suggest would be this:

The Chinese Army is responsible for the wizard's arrival. Some top secret experiment resulted in the wizard appearing; immediate attempts to capture the wizard resulted in the wizard escaping, but not before the Chinese army realized "magic" was happening, and knew they now had to find this...specimen.

At least now the Chinese are going to be on the lookout for a human-like entity of unknown supernatural powers, and are aware of the potential threat. Perhaps they can now research what "magic" can do, even if they can't learn it, themselves, just yet. The wizard, meanwhile, now knows of a hostile and strange planar force which can pull him to their plane and immediately attacked him. Even if he plane shifted away, he might still want to figure out how to take them out as a serious threat.



But note, again, that this scenario is likely not going to remain "1 level 20 PF wizard vs. the Chinese army as we know it." The Chinese army may start by "merely" initiating protocols to try to protect against mind-whammy subversion and to defend against teleporters, but if they can learn how to harness magic, they stop being "the Chinese army" in the way that the OP's question implied. Meanwhile, our 20th level PF Wizard probably is going to enlist a party of adventurers. Either being a quest-giver to send lower-level scouts to find stuff out for him...or gathering his own high-level compatriots together. Maybe even mobilizing his own kingdom's forces (being an advisor or king, himself).

So... yes. You can change the scenario. But you've changed the scenario. If you consider the scenario stacked in the wizard's favor, then you've answered the question with "the wizard wins."

Just like, if you ask who's going to win between Goku and He-Man, and you think the question is stacked against He-Man because Goku can fly and shoot ki blasts, you've answered the question. (I'm not trying to start a debate here; I know you can probably examine this in more detail regarding the sword of power's reflective capabilities, He-Man's various vehicles, and any number of things. The point is, if you have gotten to a point where you think you know the answer and it's clear because one has an insurmountable advantage, you've not "stacked the deck;" you've answered the question.)

[Strigon]

Yes, I acknowledged several pages back (soon after Xar Zarath clarified the scenario he envisaged) that the question was one that stacked the deck against the chinese, by denying their weapons the effect they would ordinarily have, but by giving full effect to the wizard's powers. This conversation is the continuation of an aside (that started before Xar Zarath's clarification) as to how this scenario could be designed to not stackt he deck in favour of either side.

I would disagree with this premise of "stacking the deck", as that implies a sort of outside force giving the Wizard an advantage. In truth, the Wizard has an advantage by being a Wizard, and Wizards can make themselves invulnerable to pretty much any mundane effects simply by their own power.
Stacking the deck isn't when Superman fights Joe Schmoe, it's when you have two people fighting, and you give one of them a gun.

I would argue that what you are, in fact, doing is stacking the deck in favour of the Chinese, in order to provide a more balanced fight. Which is an interesting question, and one I'd gladly discuss, but it isn't the same as having a completely unbiased fight between the two.



On re-reading my post (which i will edit for clarity), I see you may have misconstrued my meaning. I was not meaning that the playing field is uneven because the wizard is stronger (although that may also be true). I was meaning the the playing field was uneven because the circumstances and environment of the encounter favoured the wizard for reasons I have already mentioned, but will repeat here:

First you are adding an entire new source of power (magic). Second you are adding an entire new envrionement (plances etc). Third you are ruling that we are susceptible to the new power. Fourth, you are ruling that the new power trumps real world physics in numerous ways. Fifth, you are saying that the real world has not been aware of the new source of power, and has had no opportunity to adjust its technology or tactics to account for it. Presumably it does not even know the rules of the new game. Fifth you (or others in this thread at least) have said the wizard arrives on the adjusted earth knowing his purpose and having months to prepare with divinations before the chinese even know there is an otherworldly threat. Sixth, you are putting the wizard in the shoes of the PC, and optimising his build and actions.

All right, I will discuss this point by point.
The circumstances and environment do not favour the Wizard. The circumstances and environment allow for both sides to use their resources for maximum effect. The difference is that the Wizard's maximum effect is far, far superior to that of the Chinese. That is not the result of the environment being biased, but simply by way of the Wizard's power.

You have to add magic, otherwise this match-up becomes completely pointless. I think you'll agree with me here, so please stop saying it favours the Wizard to have magic. It's a basic necessity for this fight to happen.

Many of the Wizard's powers rely on the planes. Taking them away stacks the deck in favour of the Chinese, in the same way that having an atmosphere too thin for (air)planes to take off stacks the deck in favour of the Wizard. You can take the (D&D) planes away from this equation to make for a more interesting matchup, but call it what it is: neutering the Wizard.

As for having us be susceptible to magic, see my point on requiring us to have magic in the first place. There is no reason to believe that we're immune to it, and there certainly isn't any reason to believe that the person who asked the question was assuming we are. To say that we're not susceptible to magic is as unfair to the Wizard as it's unfair to the Chinese to say that we automatically fail all our saves. It isn't directly in contradiction to anything we know, but it's still an unreasonable assumption.

We aren't suggesting that magic trumps physics, so much as we are saying the Wizard can do everything he could normally do. That does mean he has to break physics in some ways, but that's only so the Wizard can be a Wizard. Once again, this is not a case of stacking the deck, it's a case of allowing both sides to compete to the best of their ability. Let's go back to the fire example. Nowhere is it written, in the laws of our universe, that a Chinese flamethrower kills people. That's just an effect of how it interacts with us. Thus, having somebody not die when burned by a flamethrower would be very peculiar, but not directly in violation of the laws of our universe. On the other hand, the laws of the Wizard's universe state very clearly that a creature with fire immunity cannot be harmed by fire. Therefore, to have him die to a flamethrower while he's immune to fire is a direct violation of the laws of his universe. So to rule that having him vulnerable to fire is a direct bias towards the Chinese, whereas ruling him invulnerable is neutral, as it allows both sides to use their resources as they normally would.

I'm not going to repeat what I said about your fifth point(s?), but the gist of it is that it's irrelevant. The Wizard wipes the floor with the Chinese with or without prior knowledge. To assume that the Chinese get a chance to adjust their tactics isn't unreasonable, as long as the Wizard gets the same chance, but they'd still lose. To rule that the Chinese get a chance to adjust their technology to make it affect the Wizard when he's Ethereal or somesuch is unreasonable, because that is beyond the powers of the Chinese as we know them.

We are not putting the Wizard in the hands of a PC, we are not optimizing his build or his actions. The fact is, a Wizard is very intelligent, therefore his actions should already by optimized. Furthermore, by level 20, he should have access to most - if not all - spells in one way or another, meaning the most important part of his build needs no optimization. The only thing there is for us to optimize is his metamagic feats, and assuming someone of high intelligence picks good feats isn't that far of a stretch. But even without it (say he wasn't that intelligent for his first few levels, and chose Toughness or something), he can still trounce the Chinese easily. Having a level 20 Wizard be smart isn't optimizing, and having a smart person do smart things certainly isn't optimizing.



Now, if you want to have a discussion where, for example, Invisible creatures are picked up on infrared, explosions of a certain magnitude - along with certain substances - are treated as magical for the purposes of affecting incorporeal creatures, or make similar adjustments to the fight to make it fair, that's fine.
Call it what it is, though. As you would say, that's stacking the deck in favour of the Chinese.

[Liquor Box]

Moving the goal posts.

I said our tech works as we expect it to. I didn't say it affects the wizard as we hope it will.

I may be moving your goal posts, but not my own. My goal posts, which I stated several pages back, was not how our technology works, but which systems rules trump the other. According to the rules of real life (physics) a person dies if heated up enough, according to DnD rules that is not necesarily the case.


The guns don't stop working just because superman is there. They fire. They will still kill a normal man as they normally would. Superman is just impervious to the bullets.

The flamethrower still produces fire exactly as our science/technology/engineering tells us it should. It uses fuel and creates exactly the amount of heat we expect it to. It will burn a normal man, a woman (falsely) accused of witchcraft by the Inquisition, and boil exactly as much water as the calories of heat we generate should. It will not burn the wizard, not because it's failing to generate the heat, but because the wizard is impervious to burning. Just like the gun still works in superman's presence, but superman is immune to the bullets.

This scenario is the equivalent of me saying - ok, so I accept magic does exist in the real world, but humans and the real world environment are immune to it. In that case, the wizards is able to produce the magical energy, but the environment and the people in it are immune to it.

Such an assertion would not be unreasonable. I think we both accept that arcane magic is not generally practiced in the real world. I can think of only three possible reasons -1, It does not exist. 2, it has real effect on us or our environment. 3, It works as in Pathfinder, but for some reason we have found no way to manipulate it (we have no wizards).

I am pretty comfortable that the first explanation (it does not exist) is the most likely, but since we are hand-waving that away for the point of this scenario, we must come up with another explanation. There is no reason why DnD people would have developed magic and we would not (had it existed), so it seems to me that the second explanation is as valid as the third.

The idea of the wizard's magic simply having no effect is not different from you saying the Chinese weapons work but have no effect (for example because the wizard is immune to heat).


Find me a property of depleted uranium that says it is impervious to a disintegration effect that impacts "lesser" matter as disintegration does, and we can have a discussion. Otherwise, you're making things up. Which is fine, if you're writing the fiction, but it is moving the goal posts from the original post's scenario.

Ok, fair enough.

Dictionary.com defines "disintegrate" as "break up into small parts as the result of impact or decay." Decay is defined as "(of organic matter) rot or decompose through the action of bacteria and fungi." the spell disintegrate clearly does contemplate decay, so it must disintegrate through impact. (note, if you don;t accept that is how disintegrate works, provide an explanation about how it doesm then we can have a discussion).

The property that depleted uranium has that makes it much more resistant (and generally immune) to disintegration from impact is that it is far denser than ""lesser" matter" (as you put it). That is precisely the reason it is used in armour.

Again, your assumption that disintegrate would function as prescribed by DnD rules and depleted uranium would not function per real world physics (fare better than "lesser matter") is you ruling that DnD rules trump the real world but not recognising that you are doing this.


"Is Micheal Phelps so helpless in the water that you need to stack the deck in his favor by not replacing the water in the pool with quicksand and removing the oxygen from the air around him?"

No, this is not [/quote]

This is a silly analogy, but that's ok, I can improve it for you. I take it Phelps is the wizard?

If Phelps was to race something from another planet that locomotes in quicksand, and that planet has nothing but quicksand (no water) then it would be stacking the deck against Phelps to have the race there. That is similar to stacking the deck against the wizard by having him fight in this world where magic does not exist.

If the same race was to take place on this world where quicksand does not come in 100 meter pools (or on their world, but engineered to work the same way as ours (all the quicksand becomes water)) you would be stacking the deck in favour of Phelps. Doubly so, if their world changed suddenly and they did not even have the chance to learn to swim in water. This is what you propose.

It may be possible to set up a fair contest on an alternative world. Maybe part of the swim is through quicksand and part of it is through water. The alien swimmer and phelps could each have the opportunity to learn to 'swim' in the unfamiliar matter. That is the scenario, I suggest here.


Seriously, you're arguing for making the PF wizard not a wizard. When you remove the wizard's ability to do magic, or have his magic work as written, you're making him not a PF level 20 wizard. You're making him something else. And you're no longer answering the question posed in the OP.

No I'm not. Not at all.

In one of the scenarios I say there would be no magic - but that is not what I am arguing for, I am setting up that simply as a counterpoint to your scenario where the rules of the game are per the wizard's world. I can adjust the world where there is no magic to a world where there is magic but it has not effect (to allow for your distinction where you say each party should be able to do what it ordinarily would, even if that has no effect).

In this scenario it is no more true to say that the wizard is "not a wizard" simply because his magic does not effect the chinese in the way he expects, then it is in your scenario to say the army is "not the army" because the army's weapons don't have the effect the expect.

But what I am proposing is something which is neither of these things. The rules of the real world and those of pathfinder are hybridised. Both parties know the new hybrdised rules (does a person die if heated enough or is thee an exception, does disintegrate effect all matter or is there an exception) and have the opportunity to learn to understand the new concepts introduced by the other side (technology and magic). A bit liek the swimming race where each get the opportunity to learn to swim int he other' substance.


"Who wins in a fight between a Jedi and the current UFC World Champion when light sabers and the Force don't work?" is not the same question as "Who wins in a fight between a Jedi and the current UFC World Champion?"

Claiming that letting a Jedi be a Jedi is "stacking the deck" is basically admitting that the answer to the question is, "the Jedi wins unless you handicap him to the point that he isn't really a Jedi anymore."

I am not overly familiar with Star Wars. My understanding of it is that the physics or rules of star was function exactly the same way as the real world rules/physics, it is just that people are more technologically advanced so are better able to manipulate those common rules and physics - they have swords composed of energy, space ships capable of intergalactic travel etc.

DnD is different - it introduces new concepts that are different from those in the real world and directly contradicts it. It is an alternative world where things work differently - there are different rules. I think we are explicitly warned (in the rules) against trying to apply real world physics to DnD. Star wars on the other hand is in the same universe with the same rules, the fiction just speculates at people (and other creatures) having increased powers under those same rules. As long as start wars represents a potential future for our universe there is nothing inconsistent about comparing creatures in that potential future to the present.


You seem to be under the impression that my objection is "the wizard, as you have defined it, is more powerful than the Chinese army, so the fight would not be fair". That is not my objection at all. Of course some things are simply more powerful than others (although if that is obvious, there may be no point discussing it). The objection is that pathfinder and the real world do not share a common environment or rule-set. You are trumping the pathfinder environment and rule-set over the real world one without acknowledging that the wizard is advantaged by this, and at the same time ruling that the chinese are not even aware of this different environment and rule-set. That in addition to a few other objections (like using an optimised wizard acting optimally, against a sub-optimat chinese army acting sub-optimally).


Edit: I see there are several new posts replying to me. Apologies for the delays in my replies.

[Liquor Box]

We've had time (yes, I mean the concept of time itself) for... how long? And do we have technological ways to counter time travel? Government procedures in place to deal with a chromatic assault? No? Therefore, I conclude that the Chinese army won't be able to "counter" the planes with technology in any reasonable timeframe.

I don't quite follow why you think that the fact that we have not developed time travel makes you believe that we would not have developed a way to interact with multiple planes if they existed.

Putting aside the question of whether time travel is possible (under 3.5 rules or real world rules) ,even following 3.5 rules it is much more difficult to interact with time than with the planes. The closest we get (as far I can recall) is a very minor manipulation with time stop - which slows time perhaps in a similar manner to how time is slowed if we travel at close to the speed of light. On the other hand characters are able to manipulate planes at a much lower level. So it would appear that in DnD planar interaction is much more easily accomplished than time manipulation.

So the fact that we have not discovered time travel does not suggest that we would not have discovered planar travel if planes actually did exist.


But we already have plenty of ways to counter incorporeal. No need to develop anything. Wizard relying on incorporeal dies.

Given that it is not clear that incorporeality even exists on the real world, I am interested to hear how you think we can counter it.

I would say that, because incorporeality isn't known to exist in the real world we cannot be sure how modern concepts (like radiation) would react with it - so modern concepts may effect incorporeal beings. But I don't see how we can say that with confidence.



Yes, because that's the way this type of scenario is traditionally run. The two parties run into each other without foreknowledge. I made similar objections the first time I came across such a debate.
I accept that. I am just pointing out that, by using the pathfinder environment and rule-set, you are stacking the deck in favour of the wizard.


But, you're right, it makes the discussion not very interesting, because the wizard just wins. Usually, at least.

Let's say we try to fairly stack the deck against the wizard. Hmmm... both sides are on a team of, say, 100 current "forces". Both sides are given a book, containing a list of 100 possible foes, written as if by someone from their world trying to explain the other force. It is explained that they will randomly be paired up against one of these foes. Those foes could be anything from "zombie apocalypse" to "starship Enterprise".

They won't know which they will be facing... and some over deity level being blocks divisions regarding a) which threat they will be facing, and b) any changes between the time the instructions arrive and the time the challenge starts. Which will be, say, one month. So the wizard can only divine about the Chinese army (and the other 99 potential threats) as they were one month before the competition starts (and any time before that, if they want).

Each side knows that they will be transported to a world with no indigenous sentient life - anything which isn't them, they're free to kill (allowing scorched earth nuke tactics without ramifications, for example). Each world is somehow habitable to both parties, so they can live off the land if need be (reducing wizard's food advantage).

What else? Hmmm... some things that wouldn't make much sense to (or, at least, wouldn't be terribly applicable to) the wizard regarding the fact that the Chinese army cam being along their entire infrastructure: buildings, supply depos, nuclear silos, etc - and see the terrain ahead of time to place them strategically.

Now, it's not fair to the wizard to make the world a null magic zone, any more than its fair to send the Chinese army to certain D&D editions / worlds, where their technology would stop working. However, if we're stacking the deck fairly against the wizard, there's nothing guaranteeing that the chosen world will have the same planar layout as the wizard is accustomed to. Oh, you astral project everywhere, bound to your body by a silver cord through the astral plane? No astral plane? Guess what, you're physically here. All your teleportation and conjuration relies on the existence of specific planes? Guess what? Lol, nope.

Now, to be fair, certain things the Chinese military use rely on the existence of satellites - satellites which aren't present in this world. Of course, nothing prevents the Chinese from spending that month building replacements... or even having the military confiscate the existing satellites. Similar issue with other non military resources they may wish to bring with them.

But if they want to bring an oil rig (because that belongs to the military?), well, nothing guarantees that this world has oil, either.

What you have done goes someway toward what I have been suggesting. You have created a new world in an effort to minimise any environmental advantage to either side (whether that has been done in a fair way is a whole other debate). I still think you would need to address clashes between the rule-sets though.



Even with the deck stacked this far in the Chinese army's favor, most of my example wizards would still have no difficulty defeating the Chinese army.

So, while a certain population of wizards might be weeded out by this stricter set of rules, I'd say the advantage still belongs to the wizard.[/quote[

Perhaps

[quote]
Well, my PC wizards make a much more concrete, static target than "theoretical NPC wizard". But, yes, as a single person trying to run an entire army, I tried to imagine what options they would have.

I'm sure different people's PC wizards are optimised in different ways and would handle this encounter differently. My objection is to my impression that most people are imagining themselves as playing the wizard and are consequentially (and I think this is reasonably demonstrable and not just an impression) assuming the wizard is fairly optimised with all sorts of magic gear and appropriate spells in spellbook. On the other hand the Chinese army remains completely non optimised - no assignment of their ability scores in advantageous ways, no focussing all their learning (skills and feats) only on what will make them part of the most powerful army possible etc.

A simple resolution is to assume the Level 20 wizard presented in the DMG. That has stats, magic items, and spellbook set out. I haven't checked it, but I expect that it would not be able to execute most of the tactics (and defences) set out in this thread.

Another alternative is to use the 3.5 canon wizard - Mialee. I think she is stated in the Heroes and Allies book (with spellbook and magic items). The advantage with Mialee is that we may also have an insight into tactics she would use, and may be able to infer how she would react to an attempt at seduction by a person intent on poisoning her etc.

[Aldrakan]

What exactly do you think a spell that gives you "immunity to fire" should do then?

Fire not killing a creature in PF isn't because fire works differently, it's because the creature works differently (Fire does work differently, in the sense of lacking radiant heat in a lot of situations, how it burns, etc., but those aren't the differences that are relevant here).
Fire in PF still kills nonmagical humans, animals, plants, it kills all the things it kills on earth, it just doesn't kill some things that are magical, because magic selectively changes the rules of physics because of course magic trumps earth physics, it trumps PF physics too!
That's what magic does.

[Liquor Box]

What exactly do you think a spell that gives you "immunity to fire" should do then?

Fire not killing a creature in PF isn't because fire works differently, it's because the creature works differently (Fire does work differently, in the sense of lacking radiant heat in a lot of situations, how it burns, etc., but those aren't the differences that are relevant here).
Fire in PF still kills nonmagical humans, animals, plants, it kills all the things it kills on earth, it just doesn't kill some things that are magical, because magic selectively changes the rules of physics because of course magic trumps earth physics, it trumps PF physics too!
That's what magic does.

I understand that point, it is the same as Segev's and Stirgon's.

I am saying that a spell that gives immunity to heat directly contradicts the physical laws of our universe. In terms of real world physics as I understand them, sufficient heat effects every material and every possible material.

Energy immunity in 3.5 is an abjuration spell. Abjuration spells "create physical or magical barriers, negate magical or physical abilities, harm trespassers, or even banish the subject of the spell to another plane of existence". In this case it would appear that the spell negates a physical ability - although it is not clear precisely how that occurs.

My point is which prevails. The real world "rule" which says that sufficient heat cannot possibly be negated from having an effect, or the DnD rule/spell which says that any amount of heat is negated from having an effect.

There is no really satisfactory way ro resolve this issue. A couple of possibilities:
- One resolution is to be a bit pedantic on the rules as written - "Energy Immunity" can give "fire immunity". But heat and fire are different things. So while the wizard takes no effect from fire, he does take damage from sufficient heat. This is unsatisfacotry because it tends to render the spell a bit meaningless, and it is probably not the way the rule was intended (it may even be explicitly stated somewhere that fire immunity also gives heat immunity)
- Another option is to handwave the immunity as meaning effective immunity from any temperature the wizard is likely to be exposed to on DnD 3.5 world, but not absolute immunity to ridiculously high temperatures. I am not sure what the highest fire damage prescribed by the rules is (say 50d6) so perhaps fire immunity could be taken as heat resistance of 500 or something. This is also unsatisfactory because it raises the question of how much heat the chinese weapons produce (napalm/nukes etc), and it is also quite artificial.

The other option is of course to rule that magic prevails over physics and fire immunity does indeed give immunity to all heat. But if we are going to do that, we should at least acknowledge that that is what we are doing.

[Aldrakan]

I mean, yes, we're saying magic supersedes earth physics. Magic obviously triumphs over physics because that's basically the definition of magic.

I thought the argument was over whether the Earth or Pathfinder rules of physics applied, and I was pointing out that in both cases they say the same thing - fire kills everything nonmagical. On Earth the caveat is redundant/unmentioned because there isn't magic, but magic has to exist in this scenario or it's not a 20th level wizard involved. Again, what do you think magic does if it can't break the normal rules of physics? Can a wizard not create a fireball because it violates conservation of energy? Is minor creation disallowed for violating conservation of mass?

[awa]

you realize of course we could go the other way the army are commoners with no proficiency in guns (which are exotic) they have only 2 ranks in drive so they crash into everything as well. You also keep demanding the wizard acts inefficiently to make it "fair" what if we do the same and assume the armies command structure is in the front lines and they lock themselves out of their nuclear bases?

heck we can go full Cthulhu and assume people from a world without magic straight up go insane when they see a wizard. It makes as much sense as depleted uranium is immune to magic.

i mean if were going to let the army know how to use guns and not crash their planes we should be upfront about it.

[Liquor Box]

I mean, yes, we're saying magic supersedes earth physics. Magic obviously triumphs over physics because that's basically the definition of magic.

I thought the argument was over whether the Earth or Pathfinder rules of physics applied, and I was pointing out that in both cases they say the same thing - fire kills everything nonmagical. On Earth the caveat is redundant/unmentioned because there isn't magic, but magic has to exist in this scenario or it's not a 20th level wizard involved. Again, what do you think magic does if it can't break the normal rules of physics? Can a wizard not create a fireball because it violates conservation of energy? Is minor creation disallowed for violating conservation of mass?

It turns out that this is a debate that has been had before:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?234194-Magic-does-not-break-the-laws-of-physics

My take has always been that magic does not break the laws of physics in its own universe at all.

We don't break the laws of physics (gravity) with rocket ships - we have simply found a way to partially overcome gravity. In the same way a wizard does not break the law conservation of energy by having a fireball appear without any apparent fuel source - magic overcomes that limitation by providing the fuel source.

[AvatarVecna]

I don't quite follow why you think that the fact that we have not developed time travel makes you believe that we would not have developed a way to interact with multiple planes if they existed.

Putting aside the question of whether time travel is possible (under 3.5 rules or real world rules) ,even following 3.5 rules it is much more difficult to interact with time than with the planes. The closest we get (as far I can recall) is a very minor manipulation with time stop - which slows time perhaps in a similar manner to how time is slowed if we travel at close to the speed of light. On the other hand characters are able to manipulate planes at a much lower level. So it would appear that in DnD planar interaction is much more easily accomplished than time manipulation.

So the fact that we have not discovered time travel does not suggest that we would not have discovered planar travel if planes actually did exist.

The Celerity spell line is fluffed as stealing future time to use now; Time Stop just plain gives you extra time to work with. And if all that's not enough, you can use Teleport Through Time.

Of course, because we're talking about PF and not 3.5 only Time Stop is relevant from all that.


A simple resolution is to assume the Level 20 wizard presented in the DMG. That has stats, magic items, and spellbook set out. I haven't checked it, but I expect that it would not be able to execute most of the tactics (and defences) set out in this thread.

Another alternative is to use the 3.5 canon wizard - Mialee. I think she is stated in the Heroes and Allies book (with spellbook and magic items). The advantage with Mialee is that we may also have an insight into tactics she would use, and may be able to infer how she would react to an attempt at seduction by a person intent on poisoning her etc.

Using 3.5 Wizards would be wrong because the question is about Pathfinder, and I'm not sure if there's any Wizard 20s statted out by Pathfinder. Maybe Rasputin? I don't think he'd be 20th lvl, but who knows?

Actually, this brings up an interesting point: the question in the OP is about Pathfinder mechanics coming into the real world, when the real world is already part of Pathfinder canon. Even ignoring that Golarion is an Earth expy, there's an adventure that's titled something like "Kill Rasputin!" where that's exactly what Pathfinder mechanics come into the real world. I imagine reading through that adventure would give some idea how this kind of question was handled then, and that would give insight on how to handle it now.

[Liquor Box]

you realize of course we could go the other way the army are commoners with no proficiency in guns (which are exotic) they have only 2 ranks in drive so they crash into everything as well. You also keep demanding the wizard acts inefficiently to make it "fair" what if we do the same and assume the armies command structure is in the front lines and they lock themselves out of their nuclear bases?

heck we can go full Cthulhu and assume people from a world without magic straight up go insane when they see a wizard. It makes as much sense as depleted uranium is immune to magic.

i mean if were going to let the army know how to use guns and not crash their planes we should be upfront about it.

This is silly. Why would the army be commoners and not warriors (or indeed another class that may exist on this world but not the DnD world)? Also, I suggest it requires less training to use a modern gun than most medieval weapons (perhaps the equivilant of crossbow) so they may well be simple weapons in the present world. And commoners still get a feat at level 1. And why would the army be level 1 anyway - they probably have more training than most D&D militias. Any why on earth would they have only 2 ranks in drive and even if they did 2 ranks is demonstrably enough to drive a car since they are all able to do so quite competently

I don;t really get what you are talking about when you say the armies lock themselves out of their command bases (I presume you mean accidentaly). Why would they do that?

I presume you have a point in there somewhere?

[AvatarVecna]

This is silly. Why would the army be commoners and not warriors (or indeed another class that may exist on this world but not the DnD world)? Also, I suggest it requires less training to use a modern gun than most medieval weapons (perhaps the equivilant of crossbow) so they may well be simple weapons in the present world. And commoners still get a feat at level 1. And why would the army be level 1 anyway - they probably have more training than most D&D militias. Any why on earth would they have only 2 ranks in drive and even if they did 2 ranks is demonstrably enough to drive a car since they are all able to do so quite competently

I don;t really get what you are talking about when you say the armies lock themselves out of their command bases (I presume you mean accidentaly). Why would they do that?

I presume you have a point in there somewhere?

His point is that saying "well, not all wizards would make optimal decisions" is akin to saying "well, not all nations would train their armies properly". The idea is that the Wizard, who was powerful/paranoid/careful/optimal enough to actually survive to 20th level without getting ganked by another caster, being built/played in a nonoptimal manner isn't portraying the wizard properly, it's placing a restriction on the wizard purely to give the other side a fighting chance.

In regards to what training would be appropriate for the army, I'm thinking that (since this is PF) we would go with some mix of Fighter with the Trench Fighter archetype (which has a focus on firearm proficiency and taking cover), Gunslinger (with whatever archetype is appropriate), and Ranger (with whatever archetype is appropriate). Put them in a "Guns Everywhere" setting where Modern Firearms are simple weapons, and you've got a good start on building a modern-ish army.

[Liquor Box]

The Celerity spell line is fluffed as stealing future time to use now; Time Stop just plain gives you extra time to work with. And if all that's not enough, you can use Teleport Through Time.

Of course, because we're talking about PF and not 3.5 only Time Stop is relevant from all that.

Which source is teleport through time in? I don't know it.

Assuming it is level 9 the point remains - manipulation of time is more difficult and limited than manipulation of planes (you can even create planes) in DnD. So the fact that we have no discovered time travel (putting aside the possibility that it is impossible) does not imply we would not have discovered a way to interact with the planes if they had existed.


Using 3.5 Wizards would be wrong because the question is about Pathfinder, and I'm not sure if there's any Wizard 20s statted out by Pathfinder. Maybe Rasputin? I don't think he'd be 20th lvl, but who knows?

Actually, this brings up an interesting point: the question in the OP is about Pathfinder mechanics coming into the real world, when the real world is already part of Pathfinder canon. Even ignoring that Golarion is an Earth expy, there's an adventure that's titled something like "Kill Rasputin!" where that's exactly what Pathfinder mechanics come into the real world. I imagine reading through that adventure would give some idea how this kind of question was handled then, and that would give insight on how to handle it now.

I must admit to not being overly familiar with pathfinder, so I don't really know the setting. I couldn't find the module you mention on google, but you are right, it may give a take on some of these issues.

[awa]

His point is that saying "well, not all wizards would make optimal decisions" is akin to saying "well, not all nations would train their armies properly". The idea is that the Wizard, who was powerful/paranoid/careful/optimal enough to actually survive to 20th level without getting ganked by another caster, being built/played in a nonoptimal manner isn't portraying the wizard properly, it's placing a restriction on the wizard purely to give the other side a fighting chance.

In regards to what training would be appropriate for the army, I'm thinking that (since this is PF) we would go with some mix of Fighter with the Trench Fighter archetype (which has a focus on firearm proficiency and taking cover), Gunslinger (with whatever archetype is appropriate), and Ranger (with whatever archetype is appropriate). Put them in a "Guns Everywhere" setting where Modern Firearms are simple weapons, and you've got a good start on building a modern-ish army.

this
with the addition that if you want to assume fire immunity does not work by giving real world physics priority that pushes favor in their direction and it is just as fair to assume that pf rules take priority and guns are exotic weapons

[AvatarVecna]

Which source is teleport through time in? I don't know it.

Assuming it is level 9 the point remains - manipulation of time is more difficult and limited than manipulation of planes (you can even create planes) in DnD. So the fact that we have no discovered time travel (putting aside the possibility that it is impossible) does not imply we would not have discovered a way to interact with the planes if they had existed.

Link. (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b) More difficult, of course. But the fact remains that actual time travel is possible for a Wizard 20 (at least in 3.5), which means victory via causality paradox is a thing that can happen (and defending from that is a headache of epic proportions).


I must admit to not being overly familiar with pathfinder, so I don't really know the setting. I couldn't find the module you mention on google, but you are right, it may give a take on some of these issues.

I slightly misremembered the name: the module is called "Rasputin Must Die!" (http://paizo.com/products/btpy8yv5) The adventure tagline, for those that don't like clicking links:


Worlds at War
The search for the Queen of Witches finally ends when the Dancing Hut travels to Baba Yaga’s homeland of Russia on the planet Earth. The year is 1918, and the First World War rages throughout Europe. The heroes find themselves in the wilds of Siberia, where they must face Russian soldiers armed with twentieth-century technology to infiltrate an ancient monastery and rescue Baba Yaga from her estranged son, Grigori Rasputin. Can the heroes kill the “Mad Monk”—who has already cheated death once before—and free Baba Yaga, or will they fall before the horrors of modern war?

This volume of Pathfinder Adventure Path continues the Reign of Winter Adventure Path and includes:
“Rasputin Must Die!”, a Pathfinder RPG adventure for 13th-level characters, by Brandon Hodge.
A look into the cultural climate of Russia in the midst of revolution, along with rules for her weapons of war, by Adam Daigle and Brandon Hodge.
Revelations on Szuriel, the Horseman of War, and her brutal quest for souls, by Sean K Reynolds.
Spiders versus sentient dolls in the Pathfinder’s Journal, by Kevin Andrew Murphy.
Four new monsters, by Adam Daigle, Brandon Hodge, and Sean K Reynolds.

The bolded part indicates this could serve as a good starting point; weapons of war, and likely military tactics, are likely to be discussed in this module. It's not exactly modern-day China, but it means that there's a precedent for handling interactions between real-world armies and Pathfinder mechanics.

[AvatarVecna]

it is just as fair to assume that pf rules take priority and guns are exotic weapons

The "firearms are exotic weapons" is the default for Pathfinder...but the default setting is also "Emerging Firearms". If the setting is more "Guns Everywhere" (which is more appropriate to 20th/21st century real-world), Guns are considered Simple Weapons by the rules. Here's a link (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/firearms); to find what I'm talking about, look for the section titled "Firearms In your Campaigns" (should be right at the top, you can't miss it).

[Liquor Box]

His point is that saying "well, not all wizards would make optimal decisions" is akin to saying "well, not all nations would train their armies properly". The idea is that the Wizard, who was powerful/paranoid/careful/optimal enough to actually survive to 20th level without getting ganked by another caster, being built/played in a nonoptimal manner isn't portraying the wizard properly, it's placing a restriction on the wizard purely to give the other side a fighting chance.


But not all nations do train their armies properly and even the best trained armies are not trained optimally.

Soldiers in the Chinese army do not select those ability scores that are most advantageous to creating the most powerful army. Children who will one day become soldiers in the Chinese army to not completely snub any studies or pursuits that will not aid them in becoming part of the most powerful possible army (select only skills or feats). Even the makeup of the Chinese Army is no optimal - I have no doubt there are the equivilent of military police etc within it, so it is not completely optimised for fighting.

On the other hand, the wizard people seem to be promoting is one who selected his ability scores (and subsequent increases) to optimise his power, who selected feats, magic items, spells etc for that same purpose. In essence the wizard is being built the way a PC would be. That's fine for a PC, but very few real people would every optimise themselves in that way, and I suggest that most wizard would not be either - they may dabble a little over here and a little over there. I also disagree with your implied assertion that a wizard must be opmtimised to reach lvl 20. Most would agree that even a poorly optimised wizard (like Mialee) is more powerful than most fighters, and nobody objects to the existance of fighters on the basis that they could never have survived to level 20.

I take your point about the DMG NPC wizard and Mialee being 3.5 and not pathfinder, but is there any reason to think that the average 3.5 NPC wizard would be of a different make-up than the average pathfinder wizard (allowing for rules conversions)? Have you got a better baseline of how a pathfinder wizard would look? Because I don't accept that all lvl 20 pathfinder wizards would be optimised, whereas a standard 3.5 wizard would look like the DMG version without good reason.

As to actions, people are proposing that the NPC wizard would undoubtedly eschew the advances of the chinese spy, but most seem also to think that the chinese would quickly allow the wizard to charm his was into a position in the Chinese goverment. They are having the wizard take steps optimised only to advance his end game (beating the chinese) rather than recognising him as an actual sapient being who will almost certainly take some actions that aren't solely for the purpose of advancing his goal (whether that includes falling for the spy depends on the individual wizard). Yet some of those same people have proposed that the wizard woudl simply charm his was into the chinese government and ignored the very likely possibility that extensive background checks would be required before a person could ever get a meeting with a senior chinese official. I am sure you can propose methods by which the wizard could overcome that challenge, but the fact is nobody even bothered to suggest that a work-around may be necessary becasue people are assuming the chinese will act in a highly sub-optimal (stupid) way.

[Liquor Box]

this
with the addition that if you want to assume fire immunity does not work by giving real world physics priority that pushes favor in their direction and it is just as fair to assume that pf rules take priority and guns are exotic weapons

Yes, that's my point.

If you assume magic doesn't work in the real world (which it actually doesn't as far as we know) you stack the deck in favour of the chinese. The chinese inevitable win.

If you pretend it does work, and if you rule that it overcomes the rules that do exist in the real world (physics) you stack the deck in favour of the wizard. The wizard inevitably wins.

As you say both are "just as fair" as one another, which is to say neither leads to a level playing field. One could try an construct a level playing field (hybridising the pathfinder rules and real world rules) but I doubt we could reach a consensus on that.

[awa]

to avatar vecna

i'm not saying its fair i'm saying its as fair as saying wizard spells don't work as written

to liqueur
that's not what i said at all and i think i will be ignoring you from now on

to the thread
of course level 20 wizard is overkill
level 11 or so could be sufficient
teleport to say America charm some people to hide you and serve you and using alter self and similar spells to hide your location then just use divination to find good targets and such then just summon a monster with greater teleport like say a succubus have it teleport in dominate someone with the order to cause as much harm to china as possible the succubus only lasts for a minute but the dominate lasts for multiple days sure he will likely get killed by his comrades in a few minutes but a pilot or gunner could cause a lot of damge before they finish him off and it basically costs the wizard nothing and it basically costs you nothing.

[Liquor Box]

Link. (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b) More difficult, of course. But the fact remains that actual time travel is possible for a Wizard 20 (at least in 3.5), which means victory via causality paradox is a thing that can happen (and defending from that is a headache of epic proportions).
Fair enough.

Although as I understood it the point being made about time travel was along the lines of "we haven't discovered time travel in the real world despite time existing, so I conclude we would not have discovered planar travel if planes existed". I don;t think that logic follows at all.



I slightly misremembered the name: the module is called "Rasputin Must Die!" (http://paizo.com/products/btpy8yv5) The adventure tagline, for those that don't like clicking links:



The bolded part indicates this could serve as a good starting point; weapons of war, and likely military tactics, are likely to be discussed in this module. It's not exactly modern-day China, but it means that there's a precedent for handling interactions between real-world armies and Pathfinder mechanics.

It's interesting. I see it is for lvl 13 party, so presumably it provides for the real world's weapons (even in 1918) to retain some of their effect against magicians with incorporeality and plane shifts etc.

Does anyone actually have the module

[AvatarVecna]

But not all nations do train their armies properly and even the best trained armies are not trained optimally.

Soldiers in the Chinese army do not select those ability scores that are most advantageous to creating the most powerful army. Children who will one day become soldiers in the Chinese army to not completely snub any studies or pursuits that will not aid them in becoming part of the most powerful possible army (select only skills or feats). Even the makeup of the Chinese Army is no optimal - I have no doubt there are the equivilent of military police etc within it, so it is not completely optimised for fighting.

On the other hand, the wizard people seem to be promoting is one who selected his ability scores (and subsequent increases) to optimise his power, who selected feats, magic items, spells etc for that same purpose. In essence the wizard is being built the way a PC would be. That's fine for a PC, but very few real people would every optimise themselves in that way, and I suggest that most wizard would not be either - they may dabble a little over here and a little over there. I also disagree with your implied assertion that a wizard must be opmtimised to reach lvl 20. Most would agree that even a poorly optimised wizard (like Mialee) is more powerful than most fighters, and nobody objects to the existance of fighters on the basis that they could never have survived to level 20.

I take your point about the DMG NPC wizard and Mialee being 3.5 and not pathfinder, but is there any reason to think that the average 3.5 NPC wizard would be of a different make-up than the average pathfinder wizard (allowing for rules conversions)? Have you got a better baseline of how a pathfinder wizard would look? Because I don't accept that all lvl 20 pathfinder wizards would be optimised, whereas a standard 3.5 wizard would look like the DMG version without good reason.

As to actions, people are proposing that the NPC wizard would undoubtedly eschew the advances of the chinese spy, but most seem also to think that the chinese would quickly allow the wizard to charm his was into a position in the Chinese goverment. They are having the wizard take steps optimised only to advance his end game (beating the chinese) rather than recognising him as an actual sapient being who will almost certainly take some actions that aren't solely for the purpose of advancing his goal (whether that includes falling for the spy depends on the individual wizard). Yet some of those same people have proposed that the wizard woudl simply charm his was into the chinese government and ignored the very likely possibility that extensive background checks would be required before a person could ever get a meeting with a senior chinese official. I am sure you can propose methods by which the wizard could overcome that challenge, but the fact is nobody even bothered to suggest that a work-around may be necessary becasue people are assuming the chinese will act in a highly sub-optimal (stupid) way.

You're missing the point of why people assume the Wizard is built like a PC. You see the Wizard in the 3.5 DMG, the hypothetical NPC that Wizards made? That character would not make it to 20th level; sometime around 13th lvl, he would've gotten ganked by a higher level, more optimal wizard trying to make sure he never faces any competition (and that higher level Wizard ganking the lower level Wizard was, itself, a mistake, because it left him open to attacks from his peers). In a world where gods walk the earth, dragons regularly terrorize, mages threaten to tear apart space and time with the wrong ritual, a swarm of insects can be gifted with ultimate arcane power by a wandering bard, an infinite army of wish-granting genies is only 10000 gp away, a caster can't afford to not optimize, because if they don't, they're dead. They're taking part in an arms race that has been endless escalating for millennia; being sub-optimal, realistically, means inevitable death. And if a Wizard makes a bad choice, undoing that bad choice isn't all that difficult, because they can just hop into a fast time plane and retrain anything they need to; from an outsiders perspective, they disappear and reappear in a split second, and their entire build can be completely different. The reason this argument doesn't take place about Fighters ("A Fighter would never survive to level 20!") is because Fighters don't matter. The Fighter ceased being relevant to combat when the Wizard gained the ability to scry his enemy, teleport it, turn himself and his familiar into a cyrohydra, and pump out more DPR than the rest of the party on their best day for several rounds in a row...and that was 10 levels ago. Oh hey, you can pin a flea to a tree with an arrow without killing it from 5 miles away? That's cool, I can turn every nearby enemy into a loyal mind slave. Oh hey, you can take people out by throwing a giant boulder at them, dealing enough damage to take out everything in the monster manual combined? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18472541&postcount=67) That's cool, I can jump-start the apocalypse, rain down meteors from the sky, create a city-spanning snowstorm that turns people into undead monstrosities, and fire a nuke at point-blank range and survive. Oh, you can make an infinite number of attacks per round against everything within your line of sight until everything's destroyed? That's cool, I can rewrite history so that this opponent/army/nation/planet doesn't exist. The unoptimized wizards presented by WotC can't really continue existing in a game where the magical arms race is being played straight; the only reason Elminster has survived this long is because he's even more of a designer-favorite Mary Sue than fanon!Drizz't.

Generally, even scenarios like this in 3.5, where a Wizard 20 is sent into the real-world, TO things are avoided, but even moderate PO allows a Wizard 20 to endlessly adventure in the real world with no repercussions. The point is that the Wizard isn't optimized because that's what gives the Wizard the best chance of defeating the Chinese army, it's because it's what gives the Wizard the best chance of surviving high-level rocket-tag, causality wars, contingency speed-chess, and the information wars that take place via magic in his home universe.


Fair enough.

Although as I understood it the point being made about time travel was along the lines of "we haven't discovered time travel in the real world despite time existing, so I conclude we would not have discovered planar travel if planes existed". I don;t think that logic follows at all.

Planar travel is easier than Time Travel, but it's still not easy, at least for the average citizen in D&D world...and that's a world where they know it's possible. Plane Shift is still a high-level spell, to the point that there's multiple official settings where the number of NPCS capable of casting such a spell can be counted without needing extra hands. Planar travel is difficult enough when you know it's a possibility.


It's interesting. I see it is for lvl 13 party, so presumably it provides for the real world's weapons (even in 1918) to retain some of their effect against magicians with incorporeality and plane shifts etc.

Does anyone actually have the module

Part of what helps them remain relevant is that Wizard 13s do not have a lot of the more powerful tools that let them roflstomp their way to victory over non-mages; they've got some powerful tools, yes, but very few things that are capable of completely invalidating an entire enemy army. I imagine that Plane Shift, Teleport, and Scrying are unavailable, but I imagine this has less to do with "the Russians have developed tactics for dealing with this" and more to do with "Rasputin and Baba Yaga have magic to counter the PCs magic". If that's how things go in the adventure, with the PCs unable to scry & die Rasputin because he has Mind Blank and Forbiddance, things don't look good for the Chinese Army unless they too have a pet wizard.

EDIT: I think a buddy of mine has it, I'll see if I can borrow his copy.

[Liquor Box]

You're missing the point of why people assume the Wizard is built like a PC. You see the Wizard in the 3.5 DMG, the hypothetical NPC that Wizards made? That character would not make it to 20th level; sometime around 13th lvl, he would've gotten ganked by a higher level, more optimal wizard trying to make sure he never faces any competition (and that higher level Wizard ganking the lower level Wizard was, itself, a mistake, because it left him open to attacks from his peers). In a world where gods walk the earth, dragons regularly terrorize, mages threaten to tear apart space and time with the wrong ritual, a swarm of insects can be gifted with ultimate arcane power by a wandering bard, an infinite army of wish-granting genies is only 10000 gp away, a caster can't afford to not optimize, because if they don't, they're dead. They're taking part in an arms race that has been endless escalating for millennia; being sub-optimal, realistically, means inevitable death. And if a Wizard makes a bad choice, undoing that bad choice isn't all that difficult, because they can just hop into a fast time plane and retrain anything they need to; from an outsiders perspective, they disappear and reappear in a split second, and their entire build can be completely different. The reason this argument doesn't take place about Fighters ("A Fighter would never survive to level 20!") is because Fighters don't matter. The Fighter ceased being relevant to combat when the Wizard gained the ability to scry his enemy, teleport it, turn himself and his familiar into a cyrohydra, and pump out more DPR than the rest of the party on their best day for several rounds in a row...and that was 10 levels ago. Oh hey, you can pin a flea to a tree with an arrow without killing it from 5 miles away? That's cool, I can turn every nearby enemy into a loyal mind slave. Oh hey, you can take people out by throwing a giant boulder at them, dealing enough damage to take out everything in the monster manual combined? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18472541&postcount=67) That's cool, I can jump-start the apocalypse, rain down meteors from the sky, create a city-spanning snowstorm that turns people into undead monstrosities, and fire a nuke at point-blank range and survive. Oh, you can make an infinite number of attacks per round against everything within your line of sight until everything's destroyed? That's cool, I can rewrite history so that this opponent/army/nation/planet doesn't exist. The unoptimized wizards presented by WotC can't really continue existing in a game where the magical arms race is being played straight; the only reason Elminster has survived this long is because he's even more of a designer-favorite Mary Sue than fanon!Drizz't.

Generally, even scenarios like this in 3.5, where a Wizard 20 is sent into the real-world, TO things are avoided, but even moderate PO allows a Wizard 20 to endlessly adventure in the real world with no repercussions. The point is that the Wizard isn't optimized because that's what gives the Wizard the best chance of defeating the Chinese army, it's because it's what gives the Wizard the best chance of surviving high-level rocket-tag, causality wars, contingency speed-chess, and the information wars that take place via magic in his home universe.


See, I can't agree with that. it rests on the premise that only the strongest characters survive to high levels. But there is no foundation for that assertion, and there is reason to believe it is false (at least in 3.5).

First, by the rules sub-optimal high level wizards do exist. We know this because the DMG provides for them as an NPC. You probably power your own NPC wizards up to provide a challenge to your reasonably optimised party, but that is an adaption you have made in your game, it is not standard DnD fare (indeed each prestige class has an example character, and the spellcasting ones are not at all optimised). This is supported by the (standard stats array) Mialee, and you have already pointed to Elminster from fiction. Varsuvius from OotS is another example, and I am sure there are many more. The rules also support societies As much as you think this is not part of a logical ecological system of Dnd, the fact is that by the rules, and by the interpretation of most prominent writers, it is the ecological system.

I don;t think it is illogical either. You may play in games where high level wizards are constantly looking out for lower level wizards so to destroy them before they become rivals, but that is not the default setting. There is nothing wrong with the wizard who almost never memorises any combat spells and lives simply to conduct research for its own sake (although he may have trouble gaining experience).

Also, even if the ecosystem of DnD functioned as you suggest, being optmised would help very little. Your optimised lvl 13 wizard is going to offer only slightly more resistance to the level 18 wizard (looking to eliminate rivals) than the sub-optimal level 13 wizard is. The optimised wizard might be the juicier target as well (in the context of having more potential to become a future rival) so may be in even greater danger.

I don;t see much reason to conclude that an ordinary high level wizard (not an optimised PC) would be much different from the one in the DMG, from Mialee, from Varsuvius (or his various evil counterparts), from Elminster, from the various examples of presitge spellcasters given in the books, from the villians from published sources. Nothing wrong with you having a game where everyone is a bit more optimised, but I don;t think that can displace the standard from the rulebooks and from widely published fiction.

[AvatarVecna]

Those sub-optimal stat blocks only exist because they were created in a vacuum where WotC assumed that their standards of power and survival would suffice; this assumption, that the world would allow not just unoptimal, but hilariously unoptimal characters to make it to high levels goes against the concept of natural selection. Your unwillingness to accept this is well-documented at this point, and I don't see much point in continuing to attempt to show you why assuming the Wizard is crap is a bad assumption.

I'm reading through "Rasputin Must Die", and will be pulling out parts relevant for the discussion; that adventure addresses how Pathfinder mechanics operate in the "real world", at a high (but not super-high) level. We'll see how they handle it.

[One Step Two]

I've been reading the discussion between AvatarVecna and Liqour Box with interest, and I would like to just chime in briefly with my two coppers.

The stat blocks as presented in the core and splat books are as valid as any full blown CharOp monster, entirely because of the setting they are in, due to the rules (read:GM) that govern the landscape they are in. Mialee the wizard exists because she has a full team to watch her back and make up for her short comings, and they adventure to their given limitations, they don't go chasing after Adamantine clockwork horrors at level 9, they should know better.

The encounters a that a Batman Wizard fights are those that can suitably challenge him. Usually, they are things that the DM feels that the Batman wizard can can call challenging given his system mastery, or things the wizard himself may feel is a challenge. "I need to defeat a dragon solo to affirm my power!" or the like. In fantasy settings, much like the real world, all it takes is someone willing to think outside the box to become truly unique even if they operate in the same field; compare an Electrical Engineer to Nikola Tesla for example.

They can even exist in the same plane without ever touching due to the simple fact that while Mialee might reach 20 someday, the Batman Wizard will look at her, chuckle, and use his Phenominal Cosmic Power™ to make sure everyone thinks a wizard as "powerful" as Mialee so they'll constantly underestimate him and his abilities by comparison.

The point is the potential for power is equal, but how it's used is what divides them.

And oddly, in either case both can fight an army without problem, it's just the how that changes.

[awa]

i got to agree with (one step two) most d&d games have dms and not all dms will allow all tricks so saying such a character can't exist isn't really fair.

That said as long as the argument is against a "wizard" rather then a specific wizard we also cant assume the wizard wont be optimized. Asking can Elminster beat the Chinese army is very different then asking if Schrodinger wizard can.

A level 20 wizard who loves meteor swarm is entirely viable while hes in a party with the level 20 fighter, and level 20 rogue and a level 20 cleric who thinks casting cure spells in combat is a good use of his time.

they can have an epic fight with the dragon who followed the monster manuals suggestion and took alertness, blind fight and weapon focus and who uses its spells to cast fire ball from inside its lair where it cant fly.

[AvatarVecna]

Alright, so to start off, I'm gonna be pulling a bunch of paragraphs from the text and commenting on them; these paragraphs are from the opening of the module, and involve the creator giving some insight into the process by which it was created, which is useful for our purposes.


Apparently I'd been setting myself up for the assignment for some time without realizing it. For several years I've hosted members of Paizo's staff and our extended family of freelancers at my annual Civil War-era Call ofCthulhu game at Gen Con. The adventure has become somewhat infamous, as I understand it. Titled Black Cow's Milk, Black Hen's E119s, the story threads together actual historical events during the Battle of Gaine's Mill, real members of the 4th Infantry of Hood's Texas Brigade, and, well, unspeakable cosmic horrors. And, of course, there's the ongoing obsession, collection, and study of early spiritualism and occult apparatus and artifacts that dominate my research website, mysteriousplanchette.com. Turns out that stuff comes in handy when writing an adventure set in early twentieth-century Russia. Apparently, the developers who had played in those Gen Con sessions believed that adventure exemplified the skill set to successfully pull off an adventure of the magnitude of"Rasputin Must Die!" Meticulous research. Devotion to historical accuracy. A penchant for filling in the gaps of historical fact with fantasy. And the ability to weave what we know of our world's history into a believable amalgamation with characters definitely not of this world.

My head swam with ideas. I was locked in at a 13th-level starting point, which meant PCs would be powerhouses, and were coming to a world of decidedly low level-limits. Given lower PC levels to work with, I might have written an adventure in which the PCs took on the roles of Rasputin's real-life murderers, in a replay of historic events. But that wasn't an option, and the magic wielded by PCs at this level, without the shackles of something like the Prime Directive to control their actions, was just too historically disruptive. At least I can fight back with tanks and guns, I thought. I considered advocating for a magic-dead Earth, but ultimately we all recognized we couldn't strip away the PCs' power for an entire adventure.

The story I hoped to tell was based on two presumptions. First, I theorized that the magic our myths and legends speak of was once real in our world, but has since faded. Second, everything that happened in the adventure had to happen in the gaps of our real-world history, without contradiction or disruption of the status quo.

The first assumption was the easiest to accept. The myths and stories upon which our game is based have their roots in our collective human culture, from the heroes of Greek myth to the prophets of Testaments Old and New. If one assumes, as I did for this adventure (and as many faithful do), that some of those tales are true, and that the prophets of old really did turn rods to serpents and summon plagues of frogs and locusts-or that modern TV ghost hunters actually have a chance of finding anything, or that saints' relics can heal the sick-then the burden of acceptance of the adventure's events would be much lighter at the gaming table. The second half of this assumption, which has become a trope of fantasy, was that magic has faded from our world since an earlier age of miracles. That is, with the rise of industry and the substitution of science for superstition, only the occasional great supposed seers whose names alone conjure thoughts of mysticism and power-Edgar Cayce, Aleister Crowley, Blavatsky, and Rasputin, among others-have been born capable of tapping into that magical force. And in this case, I reasoned, Rasputin was able to bring back even more of that lost magic with the Earth-bound imprisonment of his mother, her presence and his influence calling back creatures long since fled from Earth (or slumbering in dark corners) and wielding phenomenal power not seen since the days of the Old Testament. With his defeat, I reasoned, all would again be right with the world.

The latter assumption, however, is more daunting, and takes significantly more skill than just settling on a cosmological decision about the nature of magic on Earth. Early on, I settled on one overriding mantra that I'm afraid even began to annoy my developers: "All of this really happened." The story I was telling here, I repeated to myself, was simply putting our world's real history into game terms and Pathfinder mechanics. For nearly 4 months, I told myself: Rasputin survived his murder. Fables of Baba Yaga are fact. And, in 1918, a little chicken-legged hut appeared in Siberia, from which emerged a group of strange people with legendary powers. And if you search Siberia long and hard, or listen to those generations-old tales, you very well may discover the remains of a destroyed prison camp surrounding a ruined monastery. I won't tell you where it is, but if you go there, maybe you'll find a buried blade of unusual metal, or strange burn marks on ruined walls.

More importantly, I wanted to write something that could really have happened from our real-world historical perspective. I didn't want a single glitch. From the timing of Rasputin's and Anastasia's resurrection, to the inclusion of Tesla's strange technology, I wanted to assure the audience that they would find no distracting historical hiccups, without resorting to an "alternate timeline" Earth or any such mechanism. This must be our world.

No matter what I did, the events shaped by the adventure had to inevitably result in the same basic outcomes found in our history books, including the final recovery of all the Romanov remains. I gave myself a hard and strict line of demarcation between the fiction I was trying to tell and the facts and figures that make up our known history. In other words, if these events were possible, this is exactly how they went down, and in a way plausible given the history our textbooks tell us. I just had to fill in the gaps with the history humans never recorded.

So maybe-just maybe-this is how it all really happened.

This section is a promising start: he does a good job of showing he can pull off something like this, and the details given on his thought process are of particular importance to what we're trying to do here. Here's something I feel is particularly relevant to this thread:


I was locked in at a 13th-level starting point, which meant PCs would be powerhouses, and were coming to a world of decidedly low level-limits...the magic wielded by PCs at this level, without the shackles of something like the Prime Directive to control their actions, was just too historically disruptive...I considered advocating for a magic-dead Earth, but ultimately we all recognized we couldn't strip away the PCs' power for an entire adventure.

This part establishes that the author is taking into account the potential power of certain options available to PCs of this level while also acknowledging that the real-world people will generally be much lower level; at the same time, he avoids stripping magic out of the equation to make things simpler, because it would just create new gameplay problems. It shows that the rest of the adventure is taking such things into account throughout the module, meaning there will likely be both magical and nonmagical tactics/counters used to not get steamrolled by high-op tactics.

Moving on: the early part of the actual adventure is mostly Rasputin's history (both the historical version and the "for this module" secret history version). It's more or less what you'd expect, and sets up the "Rasputin is Baba Yaga's son, gifted with power" history; it also establishes that most of this takes place after Rasputin's official "death" (which in this history was him playing dead). The most interesting part is that the adventure's plot to kill Rasputin takes place because Rasputin captured his mother. Let's see what it has to say about this...


Tasked by Elvanna with setting an alluring trap for their mother, Rasputin wasted little time in setting new plans into motion, utilizing both his expansive knowledge of mysticism and the technological wonders of twentiethcentury Earth. He sought out Earth's most potent magical tomes to research the means to imprison Baba Yaga, and plundered the Tsar's hidden libraries to recover the secrets of one of the greatest minds of his technological age the university notebooks of the inventor, engineer, and physicist Nikola Tesla. These seminal works came from perhaps the most imaginative time in Tesla's life, when his passion for strange physics was just blossoming. Within his notes were the prototypes of the world-changing ideas that Tesla would pursue in his later life, but also more bizarre blueprints for machines to sunder the veil between other worlds-plans that Rasputin would put to nefarious use to ensure Baba Yaga's entrapment.

In the following months, Rasputin made his own preparations to take advantage of Elvanna's revolt against their mother. He sought out perhaps the only Russian capable of translating Tesla's mad designs into reality the exiled engineer Viktor Miloslav, whom Rasputin found rotting in a secret Siberian prison camp built among the ruins of the ancient Akuvskaya monastery. Making the prison camp the center of his power, Rasputin gathered an army of loyalists to defend it, and he and Miloslav labored to build Tesla's World Engine and its associated World Anchors, machines that would enable Rasputin and Elvanna to defeat and capture Baba Yaga.

This section establishes two incredibly important things: firstly, Earth exists within the same multiverse as Golarion, according to Pathfinder canon, meaning planar travel between them is not impossible from either direction. Secondly, and more importantly for the purposes of the fight being discussed in this thread, a "World Engine" designed by Tesla, built by Milosav, and powered by Rasputin's magic was capable of trapping Baba Yaga, an in-universe super-caster; it is also capable of crossing the planar barrier in some way. Let's read on...


Rasputin's efforts are now nearly complete. Powered by the World Engine, his monastery sanctuary floats in the ether between worlds, where none may disturb his final efforts. With the veil between worlds worn thin, Rasputin calls out to powerful guardians, awakening the long slumbering and once-fled nightmares of our world to serve him. Viktor Miloslav's loyalty has been repaid with treachery; he was sacrificed to preserve the secrets of the World Engine's operation, and his blood now stains the white snows of Akuvskaya. Loyal soldiers swarm around the former prison camp to protect their master from any would-be saviors of Baba Yaga, who he knows must someday come. And hidden deep within the compound is Rasputin's greatest secret: his resurrected daughter Anastasia, who is of blood more royal than she knows, and may have more claim to Baba Yaga's legacy than does Rasputin himself.

And here we see how properly-paranoid-wizard Rasputin is keeping his power center safe: it's sealed away from Earth, floating "in the ether between worlds" (obviously a reference to the Ethereal Plane which exists between all other planes of existence), is guarded by both loyal soldiers with modern (well, modern-ish) technology and loyal monsters out of myth and legend, and one of the three only people who know how the World Engine works was murdered on the offchance they got a chance to squeal. It's not perfect security by charop standards, sure, but it's pretty good considering what he's got to work with.

The first part of the adventure is mostly navigating your way out of Baba Yaga's Hut; while certainly interesting (there's a room made out of candy! I'm sure nothing bad will happen if you eat the walls...), it's not really relevant to this discussion of magic in the real world. Once they make their way out of the hut, though, they find themselves on a battleground. From here on out, unless they're particularly careful, they will end up facing off against troops (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#subtype-troop). Here is what the author has to say about modern warfare:


Although the focus of this adventure is on infiltration, investigation, and rescue, unless the PCs are extraordinarily careful, they are likely to run afoul of platoons of soldiers armed with modern weaponry more than capable of damaging them. Earth in 1918 is significantly more technologically advanced than the PCs' home world of Golarion, and modern firearms are the great equalizer. As a result, the nature of combat is different from what the PCs are used to-battle on twentieth-century Earth focuses on defensive positions and rifle fire from afar rather than close-in melee combat, and the PCs will soon face weapons that are both unfamiliar and highly dangerous.

To adjust for this shift in combat and to avoid having to make numerous die rolls in combats containing dozens of combatants, a new subtype that conglomerates units of individual soldiers into a single unified whole is presented below: the troop. This adventure contains several encounters with troops of Russian soldiers. These encounters are not meant as studies or simulations of modern tactical warfare; rather, by condensing many individual soldiers into a single stat block, the GM is free to concentrate on the atmosphere of the adventure without the fear of bogging down the combats.

This subtype, and the enemies that use it, are of interest. I have yet to run any numbers on an actual fight for this, so I'm unsure if a fighting force would prove more effective against PCs if the fighting force was a bunch of individuals, or more akin to a swarm of humanoids; my gut says that running each soldier as an NPC of their own, rather than running a group of soldiers as one giant stat block, would make things more realistic, but the author makes a good point about this kind of thing bogging down a real game. Unfortunately, those statblocks don't seem to be on the PFSRD, so I can't link to them. What I can tell you is that the individual Russian Soldiers are statted as Human Fighter (Trench Fighter) 6s at CR 5, where a Troop of them is CR 11. Beyond regular soldiers, the PCs will have to deal with Land Mines (CR 11 Traps), a couple of Mortar Emplacements (CR 12 together, if I'm reading it right), a Tank with 10 soldiers in it (CR 12 overall), and Rasputin himself!

Well, that last part is a lie: it's actually Rasputin's projected image. He's not enough of a fool to actually have his first meeting with the PCs be in person, because that's the kind of thing that gets arrogant mages ganked by something they didn't think of. No, instead of Rasputin, the last encounter is an undead monstrosity that's basically a giant pile of corpses that have been melted into each other, and then the whole pile was animated. CR 14, cheers.

So, once the PCs have moved away from the battlefield, and are approaching the prison-monastery part of the adventure, they have to deal with 6 tanks being "driven" by the animated brains of deceased generals or something (3 pairs of tanks, total CR 14). Getting a bit closer, to the actual perimeter, brings the PCs into potential conflict with up to 250 soldiers (most of whom are organized into 14 various troops, and the rest of whom are confined to either trenches or tanks). All of them have orders to avoid going deeper, so it's possible PCs could fight a "retreat" deeper into the fortress grounds. Approaching the fortress proper gives the PCs a first-hand experience in why attempting to cross a no-man's land towards a trench full of soldiers is a terrible idea during WW1: there are ten separate troops here (two mortar, four rifle, and four machine gun), and while they seem to be encounterable separately, I imagine that simply charging the trench would draw fire from more than one of them. Incidentally, the section detailing this brings up an important point:


Despite these soldiers' recent exposure to unusual occurrences, they simply cannot fathom the power at the disposal of the high-level PCs, and are unlikely to perceive a strike force as small as the PCs' party as a legitimate threat to the entire trench complex. Therefore, the troops in the trenches hold their positions as ordered.

These dudes are expecting this small squad of approachers to be like the A-Team, and instead they get to mess with the Justice League. This is, I imagine, largely due to Rasputin keeping a tight lid on a lot of information; if another leader was in charge, he might've prepared his troops for this possibility...although how effective such preparations would be is debatable. Things continue on in this vein for some time...and the next most interesting point we come to is the Bear Hunter:


The barn is the home of one of the prison camp's more enigmatic inhabitants-a vicious lunatic known only as the Bear Hunter. For years, this strange woman has hunted bears in the region, trading the spoils of her kills in the village or to the prison camp's guards. When Rasputin arrived in Akuvskaya, the Bear Hunter became a follower of the charismatic monk and offered her services in defense of the monastery. Because of her close proximity to the otherworldly influence of the World Anchors' twisted fey energies, the Bear Hunter has grown in power along with her three pets-three Siberian polar bears, warped into unearthly monstrosities from the Thrice-Tenth Kingdom's proximity. Wearing spiked bear-hunting armor of her own design, the Bear Hunter hides outside the barn in a snow drift (Perception DC 21 to spot), lying in wait to spring her trap (see page 32). Once her pets are released, she rushes to join in the melee in a frenetic rage, growling like a beast behind the spiked metal faceplate of her helm.

This bolded part indicates something important: an Earthling does not need magic in their blood to become far more powerful than your average soldier. The Bear Hunter is a Barbarian 14, touched by the primal parts of the world that she's been walking in for so long. This creates a precedent for Earth denizens who can gain more than 6 levels of a class, which I imagine would be incredibly useful for any discussion involving a wizard taking on this army.

Moving on a bit farther, there's more guns...more soldiers...more enchanted vehicles...ooh, something important! The adventurers are wandering through a field of corpses, and some of the corpses turn out to be gun-toting Baykoks (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/baykok). This doesn't seem super-important all on its own, but the most important part of this creature's statblock is the fact they are the first creatures in the adventure bearing magic firearms; everything up to this point has been high-tech, but decidedly non-magical. The end of the adventure features a couple of magic mortars getting mentioned, as well.

Moving further onward, the next point of interest (for the purposes of our discussion) is a sidebar:


The camp's open trenches and half-burned buildings aren't conductive to corralling PCs in a predictable manner, and at this level, the party likely has an array of extraordinary means to traverse this treacherous landscape, and spells like Invisibility, Fly, and Teleport can be used to good effect to bypass some of the more mundane threats that guard Rasputin's domicile.

This section seems to indicate that the adventure doesn't really have things in place that prevent the PCs from using such spells to their advantage, although limited use and duration keeps this from making things completely one-sided against their more mundane enemies.

Next important point worth mentioning: Viktor Miloslav (the engineer who built the World Engine) is a 10th lvl Expert, despite having (presumably) very limited combat training. This adds more evidence to the idea that real-world people can accomplish great things and gain levels in ways beyond just killing, which is likely important for any war between the Wizard and the Chinese Army (I imagine a few of their tacticians have limited personal combat experience but are Experts of strategy and tactics nonetheless).

The World Engine is protected with a Forbiddance and Antilife Shell combo set up by Rasputin, making the idea of simply teleporting/plane shifting in less than feasible.

Final thing: Rasputin himself is an Oracle 18. His spell list is not tailored towards high-level combat as much as other things, but it's still a decent list...and he makes up for it with some very nice tactics, as well as taking advantage of his environment. The only part of his statblock that seems like a Fiat is that he basically has to be killed three separate times to actually kill him (he gets a couple contingent resurrections or something like that), which I don't think is a thing you can do with the PF chargen rules, at least not without some serious cheese.

I'm gonna get some food now. It's certainly been an interesting read.

[Segev]

If you asked the question, "Who would win in a swimming race, Michael Phelps or a Zoognabian Sandworm," and the 'default' for the Zoognabians is "quicksand" while the 'default' for Phelps is 'water,' people would probably answer, "That depends: are they swimming in water or in quicksand?"

If you asked the question, "Who would win in a footrace, the Flash or Usaine Bolt?" on the other hand, people will generally simply answer, "the Flash, of course." This is because, despite the fact that DC comics-verse has the "speed force," and that's what gives the Flash his superspeed and related powers, and the real world does not, the two worlds are similar enough in how they work absent the source of the Flash's superpowers that it is outright silly to assume that two analogous things in the two worlds aren't going to behave the same way in both, and that the Flash has access to his powers.

Until you start trying to find excuses to nerf the wizard while pretending you're not doing so, fire is assumed to be fire, water is assumed to be water, guns are assumed to work like guns. There's no "trumping" the laws of physics of one world or the other. You keep doing things like insisting that "the wizard being immune to fire" is violating our laws of physics. This isn't true. The wizard may be magically producing a heat sink of infinite heat capacity, which takes an infinite amount of heat to raise its temperature. Or he may be magically altering his own physical structure to counteract the effects of his atoms vibrating at significantly higher rates than is normally healthy.

His magic works, by default, or you're not really examining "a PF wizard." You're examining a PF wizard who has had his powers diminished or taken away.

Note, for instance, that the majority of discussions of the wizard's 'invulnearbility' to mundane weaponry don't focus on him magically being bulletproof (though there are a few ways he could achieve that, at least in the short term); they focus on the generic wizardly protections against being attacked and hurt.

Complaining that the wizard's magic "breaks our laws of physics" is like complaining that the Flash's speed force breaks our laws of physics, and thus it's stacking the deck against Usaine Bolt to allow the Flash to have superspeed.

[khadgar567]

If you asked the question, "Who would win in a swimming race, Michael Phelps or a Zoognabian Sandworm," and the 'default' for the Zoognabians is "quicksand" while the 'default' for Phelps is 'water,' people would probably answer, "That depends: are they swimming in water or in quicksand?"

If you asked the question, "Who would win in a footrace, the Flash or Usaine Bolt?" on the other hand, people will generally simply answer, "the Flash, of course." This is because, despite the fact that DC comics-verse has the "speed force," and that's what gives the Flash his superspeed and related powers, and the real world does not, the two worlds are similar enough in how they work absent the source of the Flash's superpowers that it is outright silly to assume that two analogous things in the two worlds aren't going to behave the same way in both, and that the Flash has access to his powers.

Until you start trying to find excuses to nerf the wizard while pretending you're not doing so, fire is assumed to be fire, water is assumed to be water, guns are assumed to work like guns. There's no "trumping" the laws of physics of one world or the other. You keep doing things like insisting that "the wizard being immune to fire" is violating our laws of physics. This isn't true. The wizard may be magically producing a heat sink of infinite heat capacity, which takes an infinite amount of heat to raise its temperature. Or he may be magically altering his own physical structure to counteract the effects of his atoms vibrating at significantly higher rates than is normally healthy.

His magic works, by default, or you're not really examining "a PF wizard." You're examining a PF wizard who has had his powers diminished or taken away.

Note, for instance, that the majority of discussions of the wizard's 'invulnearbility' to mundane weaponry don't focus on him magically being bulletproof (though there are a few ways he could achieve that, at least in the short term); they focus on the generic wizardly protections against being attacked and hurt.

Complaining that the wizard's magic "breaks our laws of physics" is like complaining that the Flash's speed force breaks our laws of physics, and thus it's stacking the deck against Usaine Bolt to allow the Flash to have superspeed.
actually PF wizard is handicapped all ready by banning some of his schools

[Segev]

actually PF wizard is handicapped all ready by banning some of his schools

I'm missing a leap of logic here somewhere.

[Vogonjeltz]

Note to self: convenient plot armor is apparently purchasable for 1250 gp.

So are we operating in the real world or in fantasy world that happens to also encompass real world now?

The number of hand waves required is burdensome:
1) Need to know real world exists;
2) Need to handwave requirement for a unique planar key associated with our world;
3) Need to ensure that this and ONLY this wizard is able to make the journey, otherwise real world has a) knowledge of magic and access to magic items, but b) totally wrecks the fantasy planes economy's in short order because we have industrialization and they don't. The economic purchasing power of China is unparalleled anywhere in D&D because one of their cities might contain more living people than the entirety of most dnd settings. So they could easily acquire absurd numbers of magic items and the means the craft them. Basically anything that level 20 Wizard could have a major nationstate will acquire thousands of times over with little to no difficulty.


I must admit, I was not aware of any recent scientific developments that allowed us to access planar travel, so pray tell me Vogongeltz: what modern phenomenon of science and technology has granted humanity the ability to pierce the veil between our world and a completely separate plane of existence?

IF the two existences are intersecting than it already exists. There doesn't have to be a real event for the "real" world to take advantage of it. And as mentioned, there's no plausible way for only one wizard to be trekking through the multiverse, pretty much every wizard capable of doing so is doing so. Once the knowledge is out, it's out. Worse, for these silly backwards wizards, our existence has much much better information sharing capability than they do. They work on freaking books.

How screwed are fantasy wizards? Completely and totally screwed.


Astral Projection allows the Wizard to adventure into our world without his real body leaving the safety of his demiplane. From there, I imagine that there's plenty of spells the wizard could use to avoid detection, to gather information, and to plan out his assault to take over/destroy the world.

Prove it. There's nothing to suggest they wouldn't show up on normal methods of detection (ala thermal imaging), and if they have a motive at some point they have to expose themselves to scrutiny. If they can't/won't interact, they aren't a threat. If they interact, everyone will know everything about them in fairly short order. It is inevitable.


Are we seriously asking how a wizard who is capable of taking over a government by charming and dominating the right people could possibly get food and shelter?

Things which allow saving throws and require the Wizard to expose themselves to a) physical harm, and b) having their existence recorded.


Wizards who manipulate the power of the multiverse, see into the future and distant planes of existences, who can contact entities older than some universes and divine powers, raise the dead and enslave the living and master the supernatural powers of their planes into his service.

It's the first time seeing something they have zero experience with, so yes, that's probably going to be unnerving no matter how much experience they might have. And there's nothing about being a wizard that makes someone brave, those are two unrelated concepts.

It's like associating social status with morality, the two aren't linked at all.


Not even. They're wizards; they would look at a plane and ask why you can't roll it up for easy storage like their flying carpet. And no one who has ever dealt with a Slaad is going to have trouble with technology.
But the wizard loses anyway. Eventually the Chinese Intelligence forces send somebody to seduce him and inject him with a polonium pellet.

More likely they'd marvel that so many passengers can fly at heights where they would suffocate on that carpet.

Slaad? Those are chaos creatures. Did you mean Modrons? Modrons are gear works. They don't have anything like even the early computers.

[Segev]

So are we operating in the real world or in fantasy world that happens to also encompass real world now?The real world, with the wizard able to use his powers as they're described. No nerfs based on setting.

To satisfy your pedantic nitpicks, let's say this wizard discovered the planar key for our world quite by accident, having found it in Sigil and not realizing that it was not, as he originally thought, the planar key to Mechanus.

This is the first time ANY contact between our world and any other plane in D&D has occurred to the knowledge of any mortal or printed divine denizen of D&D-verse, as well as to any relevant denizen of Earth.


Things which allow saving throws and require the Wizard to expose themselves to a) physical harm, and b) having their existence recorded.
Oh no! A wizard might fail to charm the first dozen people he meets, who will dismiss him as a crazy loon or a kooky cosplayer! What a tragedy! And when he charms somebody into inviting him to their house to stay for a while, he'll totally be put on records because obviously everybody records with official recording services whenever they help out a friend by lending him a couch on which to crash!

I know you like to argue just to argue, Vogonjeltz, but seriously, how hard is it to recognize that "I'm going to change the scenario entirely and then claim that I'm right and everybody else is not just wrong, but stupid and wrong for thinking anything other than what I said, despite me changing the question to something entirely different before giving my answer."

[Vogonjeltz]

The real world, with the wizard able to use his powers as they're described. No nerfs based on setting.

To satisfy your pedantic nitpicks, let's say this wizard discovered the planar key for our world quite by accident, having found it in Sigil and not realizing that it was not, as he originally thought, the planar key to Mechanus.

This is the first time ANY contact between our world and any other plane in D&D has occurred to the knowledge of any mortal or printed divine denizen of D&D-verse, as well as to any relevant denizen of Earth.


Oh no! A wizard might fail to charm the first dozen people he meets, who will dismiss him as a crazy loon or a kooky cosplayer! What a tragedy! And when he charms somebody into inviting him to their house to stay for a while, he'll totally be put on records because obviously everybody records with official recording services whenever they help out a friend by lending him a couch on which to crash!

I know you like to argue just to argue, Vogonjeltz, but seriously, how hard is it to recognize that "I'm going to change the scenario entirely and then claim that I'm right and everybody else is not just wrong, but stupid and wrong for thinking anything other than what I said, despite me changing the question to something entirely different before giving my answer."

A) I'm not changing the scenario at all, I'm considering the logical consequences of various possibilities within the universe.

B) the objections weren't pedantic, the people in question just shot first asked questions never.

Just because a wizard can do marvelous things doesn't make it a fait accompli that they will succeed at any particular task, some posters take to that viewpoint without consideration.

And
C) Failing to charm someone isn't just some kooky experience, the subject actually feels the attempt to take over their mind as a very real invasion!

And even if people who weren't targeted just thought the wizard was a lunatic that would very actively result in social services and the police being involved to take custody of the wizard for psychiatric care. This in turn almost certainly would lead to a very public display of magic, unless the wizard is comfortable with being detained and separated from their hobo sack of spell components.

[Strigon]

And even if people who weren't targeted just thought the wizard was a lunatic that would very actively result in social services and the police being involved to take custody of the wizard for psychiatric care. This in turn almost certainly would lead to a very public display of magic, unless the wizard is comfortable with being detained and separated from their hobo sack of spell components.

I'm going to have to stop you there.
The idea that - first of all - people would call the police over someone acting like a Wizard, is just not realistic. They'd think he was a cosplayer, or maybe start looking for the hidden camera. Most people would ignore him.
And that's assuming he drew attention to himself in the first place, which is not something I think he'd do. He's in a strange new world, where he doesn't know the laws or how powerful other people might be. Chances are, he's lying low until he figures out how to fit in - or at least not look like a lunatic.

Then, assuming someone actually came to take him away, the idea that social services, or whatever poor police officers they send after one delusional old man could force him into a "very public display of magic" is equally unrealistic. Even a Wizard, by level 20, is quite skilled in hand-to-hand combat, and can take a ludicrous amount of punishment. If things don't go his way, the most likely thing to do is Expeditious Retreat, which would look very strange but would probably not lead to "OMG A WIZARD!", followed by Alter Self until the heat dies down. Even that's probably pushing it - you could probably to without Expeditious Retreat, and then you just have someone turning a corner and disappearing.

Things would have to go very, very wrong before anything overtly magical happened.

[Xar Zarath]

It would take quite a while for everyone to figure out the cosplaying wizzie is an actual Wizard. Heck there are some self proclaimed Grand Warlocks and such here in our own RL world and we don't automatically assume "gosh, magic!"

The Wizard would have ample amounts of time to acclimate to the situation at hand. And remember its only one Wizard 20. If an entire nation or empire of Wizards decided to come to our world, then that's a different thread entirely.

[khadgar567]

I'm missing a leap of logic here somewhere.
if ı remember correctly pathfinder wizard can specialize on few schools by banning some other schools

[Strigon]

if ı remember correctly pathfinder wizard can specialize on few schools by banning some other schools

But it's hardly being handicapped if it's something Wizards normally do.

[Segev]

Just because a wizard can do marvelous things doesn't make it a fait accompli that they will succeed at any particular task, some posters take to that viewpoint without consideration.It's more law of averages. Yes, the wizard's victims can succeed saving throws. Yes, the wizard can miss with ranged touch attacks. No, the wizard doesn't know everything to start with (and, in fact, is in the most danger of making a plot-shifting mistake in the first few minutes of encountering another human being in this strange world of ours).

That said, though, if he's smart enough to realize that he knows nothing about what's going on, he'll do one of two things: He'll assume wizards are a known (if not necessarily common) thing, and actually go into the nearest town to start asking for common information sources, identifying himself as a wizard (probably after casting tongues to facilitate communication, if Common doesn't 'plot magically' translate to whatever is the language of the area he first arrives in).

This will get him some very strange looks. Especially since his garb will stand out like a sore thumb anywhere outside of a major city running a geek-oriented convention.

But it won't get the police called unless he makes a scene that causes people to be worried. The worst case scenario for "oops, I overtly used magic" would be if some muggers or something tried to pick a fight with him before he knew magic was noteworthy in an unfortunate way; dropping sleep or web to incapacitate them and not be bothered beyond that is likely a common response from a 20th level wizard in what he thinks is a civilized area encountering what he probably presumes to be lawless thugs. (Here, the LG or LN wizard is in the most danger of screwing up: he might assume reporting this to the authorites, informing them that he put these people to sleep/trapped them in a web to subdue the criminals for the authorites' convenience. At best, they'll think he's a bit crazy and potentially dangerous, and take him in for questioning. At worst, they'll realize he put a magical web in place and know something's up.) Heck, maybe he dimension doors away from the thugs in the first place. Overt magic, yeah, but who's going to BELIEVE them? Even security cameras will be doubted in the face of that apparent impossibility, though granted, it could be what is needed to start somebody being paranoid at the right levels of government.

Regardless, just let him avoid having everything go wrong to a degree that falls outside a single standard deviation for "average events," and he will figure out that magic is unknown here, and that he stands out if he walks around dressed and acting like a wizard. A simple disguise self spell will ensure he is dressed similarly to the locals, however, and can easily get him out of trouble if he happens to make people suspicious and start searching for him.

In short, no, it's not about having to succeed at every magical thing he does. It's about the fact that he can keep trying until he does, and that wizards are not stupid and have tools that DO automatically work to let them keep secrets while learning about unknown, dangerous situations.


Failing to charm someone isn't just some kooky experience, the subject actually feels the attempt to take over their mind as a very real invasion!And they have no idea what it was, because being charmed isn't a thing in our world. If they raise a hue and cry, they'll be the ones who seem crazy: paranoid and/or schizophrenic.


And even if people who weren't targeted just thought the wizard was a lunatic that would very actively result in social services and the police being involved to take custody of the wizard for psychiatric care. This in turn almost certainly would lead to a very public display of magic, unless the wizard is comfortable with being detained and separated from their hobo sack of spell components.


I'm going to have to stop you there.
The idea that - first of all - people would call the police over someone acting like a Wizard, is just not realistic. They'd think he was a cosplayer, or maybe start looking for the hidden camera. Most people would ignore him.This. People only call the police on crazy-persons if the crazies are causing a scene that is driving away business or endangering themselves or others.

I could walk down Dallas's main streets wearing a bathrobe and a hat with stars stitched on it, and, as long as I was wearing a sufficiently all-encompassing bathrobe not to get called out on indecency laws, I'd just get weird looks. Even if I waved my fingers and chanted weird syllables at people before trying to get them to give me their wallet, they'd just back away and avoid me. It would take a LOT of harassment in the same place and at the wrong people, disrupting somebody's business or actively harassing people enough to make a recognizable pattern before anybody would call the police on me.

If I were grandiose enough about it, most people would think I was performing some sort of improv street theater.

Even if I did get the police called on me, my erudite speech would enable me to apologize to them for causing a disruption and probably get off with a warning to "move along" and "don't cause a disturbance." I'd have to have been acting in a way that convinced the officers I was dangerous to myself or others to get hauled off to the station (under most circumstances).


And if we replace "wizard" with "sorceress," and some of the slips of robes and belts that they're depicted as almost wearing, combined with what is acceptable attire for attractive women in the modern US... she'd get whistles and people playing along more than she'd get the cops called, at least until she started actually assaulting people. (At worst, they might approach her and ask her if she's a prostitute, and to move along; attempted arrest is only happening if they can get her to offer sex for money.)


In short: the wizard has a fair bit of leeway to make an idiot of himself in public before it rises above "eccentric street theater" to most people. And he's probably smart enough to realize that drawing attention to himself like that is a bad idea before he knows what manner of demigods rule this world of mechanical monsters.

So he'll be likely, once he realizes that he needs information before he draws attention to himself, to make liberal use of disguise self to test approaches until he finds one that works, and to elude pursuit and culpability should he accidentally run afoul of authorities (legitimate or otherwise).


Things would have to go very, very wrong before anything overtly magical happened.He's most vulnerable to this right away. I know most PC level 20 wizards respond with overt magical force (or defense) to sudden surprise attacks from even the lowliest commoner or housecat, simply because it's possible it's really a CR 30 pseudonatural dragon disguised as a housecat.

So they either obliterate, disable, or teleport away from it.

As long as he doesn't encounter overt hostility in the few minutes of encounters he'll need to realize that overt magic draws unwanted attention, he has myriad options to avoid it being obvious. It's just a matter of him knowing to employ them first.


if ı remember correctly pathfinder wizard can specialize on few schools by banning some other schools


But it's hardly being handicapped if it's something Wizards normally do.
Yeah. They can, but that doesn't mean they have to. So it's hardly "handicapping" a wizard that he has the option.

PF is also incredibly forgiving with its specialization rules: the "banned" schools just cost 2 spell slots to prepare, rather than being truly removed from the specialist's class spell list.

[dascarletm]

Depends on the wizard.

If someone wants to build a wizard I'm sure we could have a more useful discussion on that particular wizard's tactics/their likelihood to succeed.

I'll throw in a contender (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/npc-s/npc-19/archmage-elf-wizard-20). Note that this is a preconstructed NPC because I don't feel like building a character at this moment. Sadly it only lists spells prep'd not all the spells in their spellbook.

[Vogonjeltz]

I'm going to have to stop you there.
The idea that - first of all - people would call the police over someone acting like a Wizard, is just not realistic. They'd think he was a cosplayer, or maybe start looking for the hidden camera. Most people would ignore him.
And that's assuming he drew attention to himself in the first place, which is not something I think he'd do. He's in a strange new world, where he doesn't know the laws or how powerful other people might be. Chances are, he's lying low until he figures out how to fit in - or at least not look like a lunatic.

Then, assuming someone actually came to take him away, the idea that social services, or whatever poor police officers they send after one delusional old man could force him into a "very public display of magic" is equally unrealistic. Even a Wizard, by level 20, is quite skilled in hand-to-hand combat, and can take a ludicrous amount of punishment. If things don't go his way, the most likely thing to do is Expeditious Retreat, which would look very strange but would probably not lead to "OMG A WIZARD!", followed by Alter Self until the heat dies down. Even that's probably pushing it - you could probably to without Expeditious Retreat, and then you just have someone turning a corner and disappearing.

Things would have to go very, very wrong before anything overtly magical happened.

Let me restate this with a little more brevity to see if I fully understand what you're proposing:

1) Stranger approaches people making outlandish requests and generally acting like a predator.

2) At some point in time, people report this malevolent behavior, or it's noticed by police on patrol.

3) Wizard resists arrest and escalates by physically assaulting a police officer.

4) Wizard, if not already shot dead outright, proceeds to run on foot from the scene of the crime.

A word on your proposed method of escape, alter Self doesn't change clothes, it either melds them into the body (so now we have a new naked lunatic on the street) or leaves them in place...in which case our quick changes artist still has his regalia of unusual things on his person.

And casting a spell is a big showy ordeal, people are going to notice that this guy waves his hands and speaks magic words and then tries to run twice as fast as a normal person would. Especially if this wizard is old, which, as a level 20 they pretty much have to be if they have a collection of spell books containing all the spells in even just the PHB.

This "new" person would be detained for questioning, at the least, no matter how much they looked different because they would have the possessions of the person being chased, or be nude.

And, not to get too into the weeds on mechanics, although a Wizard might have a, relatively, moderate BAB, these are trained combatants he's up against, their equivalent BAB is likely to be on the upper end of the scale (i.e. +15-+20) with commensurate multiple attacks. They could easily outgun and outgrapple him. Furthermore modern weapons deal a large amount of damage and have a very high rate of fire, a single gun would be lethal at point blank range.

At this point backup will have been called in, witnesses would be gathering to gawk, and the net result is the same, wizard inevariably faced with the choice of detention (or maybe lethal force for having attacked the police) or being forced to escalate the situation further.


It would take quite a while for everyone to figure out the cosplaying wizzie is an actual Wizard. Heck there are some self proclaimed Grand Warlocks and such here in our own RL world and we don't automatically assume "gosh, magic!"

The Wizard would have ample amounts of time to acclimate to the situation at hand. And remember its only one Wizard 20. If an entire nation or empire of Wizards decided to come to our world, then that's a different thread entirely.

It would only take a single spell cast. None of them can actually do actual feats of magic, there's a qualitative difference. As described this wizard isn't just keeping to themselves doing nothing, they're actively going out and trying to interact to gain information and then cast spells to try and manipulate people.

And an invasion is definitely going to draw attention. There's a slim margin for, temporary, cover by an individual, but a group has no chance of blending.

Actually, this might pose the basis for a fun modern d20 or cthulhu campaign: the party is a group of private investigators who have to look into the odd behavior of people whose relatives have noticed that they're acting strangely from having come into contact with this wizard (i.e. his early successes).


But it's hardly being handicapped if it's something Wizards normally do.

It depends on what they banned, not having Enchantment, for example, could be pretty crippling if one needs to navigate in a strange land whose customs they don't understand and where the violation of societal norms can potentially lead to permanent imprisonment.


(probably after casting tongues to facilitate communication, if Common doesn't 'plot magically' translate to whatever is the language of the area he first arrives in).

A good point, it's possible the Wizard is speaking in what sounds like gibberish to most people.

But that material component: "Arcane Material Component A small clay model of a ziggurat, which shatters when the verbal component is pronounced."

If he has to cast tongues, that's going to draw some hilarious attention.


But it won't get the police called unless he makes a scene that causes people to be worried. The worst case scenario for "oops, I overtly used magic" would be if some muggers or something tried to pick a fight with him before he knew magic was noteworthy in an unfortunate way; dropping sleep or web to incapacitate them and not be bothered beyond that is likely a common response from a 20th level wizard in what he thinks is a civilized area encountering what he probably presumes to be lawless thugs. (Here, the LG or LN wizard is in the most danger of screwing up: he might assume reporting this to the authorites, informing them that he put these people to sleep/trapped them in a web to subdue the criminals for the authorites' convenience. At best, they'll think he's a bit crazy and potentially dangerous, and take him in for questioning. At worst, they'll realize he put a magical web in place and know something's up.) Heck, maybe he dimension doors away from the thugs in the first place. Overt magic, yeah, but who's going to BELIEVE them? Even security cameras will be doubted in the face of that apparent impossibility, though granted, it could be what is needed to start somebody being paranoid at the right levels of government.

I think this whole bit becomes very very dependent on who the wizard is. If it's someone who's going out of their way to pick a fight with an entire state, they're probably some version of Evil.

And one example of an evil wizard from some of the books is a guy who walks around attached by chains to slaves who he drains of their life force to empower his spells. His reaction to anyone bothering him is to start chucking fireball spells.

That dude is simply not going to keep a low profile, and they're the most likely type to even get into this sort of thing.

As for dimension door...he's got to have an end point, in any urban environment that's probably going to be a wall, so he'll visibly pop out of a wall, possibly in front of dozens of witnesses and/or cameras.


And they have no idea what it was, because being charmed isn't a thing in our world. If they raise a hue and cry, they'll be the ones who seem crazy: paranoid and/or schizophrenic.

I think it'd be unnerving at the least as there would be association between the Wizard making weird gestures and sounds at them and the feeling of a hostile tingle.

If you're lucky at that point the person in question puts immediate distance between them, if not it's a fight.


This. People only call the police on crazy-persons if the crazies are causing a scene that is driving away business or endangering themselves or others.

I could walk down Dallas's main streets wearing a bathrobe and a hat with stars stitched on it, and, as long as I was wearing a sufficiently all-encompassing bathrobe not to get called out on indecency laws, I'd just get weird looks. Even if I waved my fingers and chanted weird syllables at people before trying to get them to give me their wallet, they'd just back away and avoid me. It would take a LOT of harassment in the same place and at the wrong people, disrupting somebody's business or actively harassing people enough to make a recognizable pattern before anybody would call the police on me.

If I were grandiose enough about it, most people would think I was performing some sort of improv street theater.

Even if I did get the police called on me, my erudite speech would enable me to apologize to them for causing a disruption and probably get off with a warning to "move along" and "don't cause a disturbance." I'd have to have been acting in a way that convinced the officers I was dangerous to myself or others to get hauled off to the station (under most circumstances).


And if we replace "wizard" with "sorceress," and some of the slips of robes and belts that they're depicted as almost wearing, combined with what is acceptable attire for attractive women in the modern US... she'd get whistles and people playing along more than she'd get the cops called, at least until she started actually assaulting people. (At worst, they might approach her and ask her if she's a prostitute, and to move along; attempted arrest is only happening if they can get her to offer sex for money.)


In short: the wizard has a fair bit of leeway to make an idiot of himself in public before it rises above "eccentric street theater" to most people. And he's probably smart enough to realize that drawing attention to himself like that is a bad idea before he knows what manner of demigods rule this world of mechanical monsters.

So he'll be likely, once he realizes that he needs information before he draws attention to himself, to make liberal use of disguise self to test approaches until he finds one that works, and to elude pursuit and culpability should he accidentally run afoul of authorities (legitimate or otherwise).

Asking for a wallet would lead to attempted robbery, not that even a charmed person would give you their wallet, it just makes people regard you as a friend, and even friends don't just give away all their things.

The image I associate with most fantasy wizards is more along the lines of hobo with a sack for their books. Sure, you won't get bothered if you don't say or do anything offensive, but approaching a total stranger, waving your hands and intoning words and then asking for their wallet? Yeah that's going to engender a negative reaction (even charmed)


He's most vulnerable to this right away. I know most PC level 20 wizards respond with overt magical force (or defense) to sudden surprise attacks from even the lowliest commoner or housecat, simply because it's possible it's really a CR 30 pseudonatural dragon disguised as a housecat.

So they either obliterate, disable, or teleport away from it.

As long as he doesn't encounter overt hostility in the few minutes of encounters he'll need to realize that overt magic draws unwanted attention, he has myriad options to avoid it being obvious. It's just a matter of him knowing to employ them first.

Teleport isn't an option, they know nothing at all about the area they are in.

[Segev]

A good point, it's possible the Wizard is speaking in what sounds like gibberish to most people.

But that material component: "Arcane Material Component A small clay model of a ziggurat, which shatters when the verbal component is pronounced."

If he has to cast tongues, that's going to draw some hilarious attention.
You keep assuming the wizard is going to walk up to somebody and do all this in the open. While he might the first one or two times if he really has no clue that magic is not known and trusted here, he's not stupid and will figure it out fast. Casting tongues in an alleyway and then walking out speaking the local language won't really be all that suspicious.



I think this whole bit becomes very very dependent on who the wizard is. If it's someone who's going out of their way to pick a fight with an entire state, they're probably some version of Evil.

And one example of an evil wizard from some of the books is a guy who walks around attached by chains to slaves who he drains of their life force to empower his spells. His reaction to anyone bothering him is to start chucking fireball spells.

That dude is simply not going to keep a low profile, and they're the most likely type to even get into this sort of thing.Sure. If he's really confident he can do this without interference. That dude is going to quickly learn that the world is still a weird place and that he has a lot to learn, and he'll hole up in a fortress somewhere with his mind-slaves feeding him information.


As for dimension door...he's got to have an end point, in any urban environment that's probably going to be a wall, so he'll visibly pop out of a wall, possibly in front of dozens of witnesses and/or cameras.Or just "up on the roof." And then he casts invisibility and his overland flight lets him go away in ways nobody watching suspects.


I think it'd be unnerving at the least as there would be association between the Wizard making weird gestures and sounds at them and the feeling of a hostile tingle.Again, you assume he walks up to your face and tries this. Rather than, say, looking across the street at a likely mark and casting. Sure, somebody near him might notice the weird gestures and speech, but the target who feels the "hostile force" won't likely see a thing.


Asking for a wallet would lead to attempted robbery, not that even a charmed person would give you their wallet, it just makes people regard you as a friend, and even friends don't just give away all their things.People walking up and asking you for a few bucks is not all that weird. Only an idiot wizard would say "give me your coin purse," because he doesn't necessarily know he's successfully charmed the mark. And wizards aren't idiots. Almost by definition.


Teleport isn't an option, they know nothing at all about the area they are in.Line of sight teleport works. And a wizard may well have scoped out a safe point to retreat to anyway. If all else fails, there's "500 feet straight up." Remember his all-day-long overland flight.

[Xyon]

Because we exist on a plane where magic does not exist, as soon as the wizard plane shifts to earth, they would be drained of all of their spellcasting ability, and their magical items would be worthelss, and then they would even lose to a group of teenagers because on our plane everyone has about the same number of hit points.

[AvatarVecna]

Because we exist on a plane where magic does not exist, as soon as the wizard plane shifts to earth, they would be drained of all of their spellcasting ability, and their magical items would be worthelss, and then they would even lose to a group of teenagers because on our plane everyone has about the same number of hit points.

Thank you for shining some light on this totally original perspective.

[Xyon]

Thank you for shining some light on this totally original perspective.

Sorry I felt like replying before reading all 6 pages of replies. The replies I had read at the time I typed mine out had not come to the same conclusion that I did in my original reply about there being no magic in this world. There's no need to take the time and point out whatever you're feeling if its just going to be the type of reply you made. But whatever, your time is yours, heck I shouldn't even be typing out this reply because of how pointless it is but here I am.


I supose to revive things a bit we would need more specifics.

#1 under what circumstances do the wizard and the chinese army face eachother? On earth where there is no magic? In the realm of the wizard where there is magic?

#2 what laws do wizard spells operate under? Does invisibility only block visible spectrums of light? Would infra red or ultraviolet detection systems still cause the wizard to be seen? Or would it be more like how dark matter can't be detected by these, at least we think it cant or there's no evidence so far that it cant, but it can still have its mass measured to some extent?

#3 are we converting the wizard from a set of stats like attack bonus, hit points, waving throws, to a more realalistic human body, no hit points only injuries, no experience levels only your ability to react, skill at doing things, etc. Or are we converting the chinese army to less real d20 system of stats, give them all levels of xp, hp, etc. Converting their weapons, skills, vehicles, etc, into d20 rules systems.

#4 why is this even happening? whats the motivation of the wizard to defeat an army? or whats the motivation of the chinese army to defeat a wizard?

#5 why choose the whole army? Its impossible for 3.5 million soldiers to be lined up in a single battle formation to face off against 1 opponent. It could never bring to bear its full force against the wizard, so the wizard would always be facing a small part at any given time and could basically have the whole 300 spartans vs 1 million soldiers advantage of fighting in a narrow space where number advantage means nothing.

[Strigon]

#1 under what circumstances do the wizard and the chinese army face eachother? On earth where there is no magic? In the realm of the wizard where there is magic?


The most fair way to do it is to suppose that the Wizard is transported here, to Earth, and magic "seeps through", meaning the Chinese have their full infrastructure, and the Wizard has all his power.



#2 what laws do wizard spells operate under? Does invisibility only block visible spectrums of light? Would infra red or ultraviolet detection systems still cause the wizard to be seen? Or would it be more like how dark matter can't be detected by these, at least we think it cant or there's no evidence so far that it cant, but it can still have its mass measured to some extent?

The spells operate exactly as written, otherwise we aren't dealing with a PF Wizard anymore. For example, Invisibility states "While they can't be seen, invisible creatures can be heard, smelled, or felt.

Invisibility makes a creature undetectable by vision, including darkvision."
This states quite clearly that they cannot be seen. To be detected via infrared or ultraviolet radiation would violate this, ergo he would remain undetectable by all EM radiation.



#3 are we converting the wizard from a set of stats like attack bonus, hit points, waving throws, to a more realalistic human body, no hit points only injuries, no experience levels only your ability to react, skill at doing things, etc. Or are we converting the chinese army to less real d20 system of stats, give them all levels of xp, hp, etc. Converting their weapons, skills, vehicles, etc, into d20 rules systems.

If you did either of those things, you wouldn't have a PF Wizard facing off against the Chinese Army. You'd have a Wizard-esque being facing off against the army, or you'd have a bunch of Fighter 5s (difficult to say, actually, since some things progress to unrealistic levels faster than others) facing off against a Wizard.
I propose that - for attacks - the rules favour the defender. For example, if the Wizard gets shot at, the Chinese have to hit him (Which can be effectively seen as them rolling and hitting the Wizard's touch AC. They haven't actually done so - they've just aimed properly - but the effects are the same), and then the bullets have a slight chance to be blocked, based on which defensive spells the Wizard has up and the caliber of the bullet. Any bullets that make it through deal X D(Y) damage to the Wizard, based once again on caliber.
If the Wizard casts Fireball, there is an incendiary explosion centred around the spell.



#4 why is this even happening? whats the motivation of the wizard to defeat an army? or whats the motivation of the chinese army to defeat a wizard?

Irrelevant. It doesn't affect the outcome.
But, just for the sake of giving an answer, the Wizard is pulled away from his world with no means of return by some sort of Supreme Being, and told that he will be put back if he can defeat the Chinese Army. At the same time, the Chinese Army receives unquestionable intelligence that a lone enemy is seeking to destroy them. Neither knows anything about their adversary save for their name.



#5 why choose the whole army? Its impossible for 3.5 million soldiers to be lined up in a single battle formation to face off against 1 opponent. It could never bring to bear its full force against the wizard, so the wizard would always be facing a small part at any given time and could basically have the whole 300 spartans vs 1 million soldiers advantage of fighting in a narrow space where number advantage means nothing.

First off, that's a gross oversimplification. In this case, the Wizard could be entirely surrounded, whereas in that battle, there was no room to be surrounded. It wouldn't be 1 on 1, 3.5 million times - it would be several thousand constantly fighting one from all sides. (I mean, it wouldn't actually be that, because the Wizard probably wouldn't sit still and just blast for months on end, but still).
Secondly, number advantage means nothing? Look, I get that it's easier to fight 5 people one by one than it is to fight 5 people all at once, but either way my money's going on the group of people. Tactically, it might not make a real difference, but strategically? It makes all the difference in the world.
Third, it's still irrelevant. Even if it were true that it's a huge advantage to only be outnumbered several thousand to one, what's your point? The question is "who would win", not "how can we make this a fair fight?"

[Xyon]

Let's assume that since the wizard could not choose to plane shift out, that teleportation is also invalid. I think the chinese army would win. Through constant attack the wizard would never be given the chance to rest after exhausting all of their spells and thus would eventually be taken down.

[Strigon]

Let's assume that since the wizard could not choose to plane shift out, that teleportation is also invalid. I think the chinese army would win. Through constant attack the wizard would never be given the chance to rest after exhausting all of their spells and thus would eventually be taken down.

Not true at all. There's no reason to say he can't teleport, or plane shift out - he just can't return home. What would happen without those spells is a different question.
Even without them, though, Rope Trick exists, and Invisibility buys you enough time to escape - especially if coupled with movement-boosting spells.

[awa]

actually hadn't though about rope trick he can hide for 20 hours at a time, if he only leaves the rope trick while time stopped he cant be touched and from inside he can just spam summoned monsters to go out and kill for him.
I mean create demi plane is more powerful but this is probably good enough and doesn't require any special preparation and being a low level spell is almost certain to be in the spell book.

Summon monster 8 summons d4+1 succubus they can teleport around dominating people shape shifting into commanders and giving conflicting orders, calling in airstrikes on their own guys either through dominated pawns or just simply using bluff and suggestion while looking like a comrade to convince them that their allies have been compromised.

Even if they try and put in place codes the dominated guys will know them to. The raw paranoia will be devastating no army can function if they think anyone they meet might suddenly turn on them or be a demon in disguise.

they only last a short while but with their teleport to get to targets anywhere in the world they can cause a crazy amount of damge in that time and at no long term cost to the wizard.

[Eldariel]

actually hadn't though about rope trick he can hide for 20 hours at a time, if he only leaves the rope trick while time stopped he cant be touched and from inside he can just spam summoned monsters to go out and kill for him.
I mean create demi plane is more powerful but this is probably good enough and doesn't require any special preparation and being a low level spell is almost certain to be in the spell book.

Summon monster 8 summons d4+1 succubus they can teleport around dominating people shape shifting into commanders and giving conflicting orders, calling in airstrikes on their own guys either through dominated pawns or just simply using bluff and suggestion while looking like a comrade to convince them that their allies have been compromised.

Even if they try and put in place codes the dominated guys will know them to. The raw paranoia will be devastating no army can function if they think anyone they meet might suddenly turn on them or be a demon in disguise.

they only last a short while but with their teleport to get to targets anywhere in the world they can cause a crazy amount of damge in that time and at no long term cost to the wizard.

Rope Trick? At least make it a Magnificent Mansion if you're gonna deny the beauty of Genesis.

[awa]

rope tricks just the minimum any wizard not smart enough to know at least rope trick should just quite now

[Quertus]

Someone dressed in a bathrobe and speaking gibberish might not warrant police attention in the USA, but that doesn't necessarily hold true for every country. Anyone care to respond as an expert in Chinese culture, law, etc?

Also, I'd be willing to give the Chinese citizens the benefit of the doubt to have the "superstitious" trait, and not just blow off mental intrusion like more jaded peoples might. Any experts care to comment?


I don't quite follow why you think that the fact that we have not developed time travel makes you believe that we would not have developed a way to interact with multiple planes if they existed.

Putting aside the question of whether time travel is possible (under 3.5 rules or real world rules) ,even following 3.5 rules it is much more difficult to interact with time than with the planes. The closest we get (as far I can recall) is a very minor manipulation with time stop - which slows time perhaps in a similar manner to how time is slowed if we travel at close to the speed of light. On the other hand characters are able to manipulate planes at a much lower level. So it would appear that in DnD planar interaction is much more easily accomplished than time manipulation.

So the fact that we have not discovered time travel does not suggest that we would not have discovered planar travel if planes actually did exist.


Although as I understood it the point being made about time travel was along the lines of "we haven't discovered time travel in the real world despite time existing, so I conclude we would not have discovered planar travel if planes existed". I don;t think that logic follows at all.

2e actually has chronomancers, and details which spells actually manipulate time. They start at 1st level, just like spells that require D&D planar geography to function, such as the monster summoning line, start at 1st level. Haste is one of the most obvious examples of lower-level D&D magic that manipulates time.

Also, as one cannot disprove that D&D planar geography exists in the real world, it is not unreasonable to postulate "the Chinese army" in a world with D&D planes looking exactly like the Chinese army IRL.

But all that is irrelevant to my actual point, which wasn't technology, but tactics. If we say the planes are real in this world, just like time is real in this world, I contend our strategies for dealing with weaponized planes would be as incomplete as our strategies for dealing with weaponized time.

In particular: "the Chinese army", as it exists right now, could well come from a world that has magic & D&D planar geography. That is the best way to allow most people's interpretations of the question.

The Chinese army, as it exists right now, is in a world that was just granted magic, and has no planes, is, however, an equally valid way to interpret the question.

But the Chinese army does not live in a vacuum in this world; this makes answering what would really happen rather complex.

For this reason, and several others (including making discussions of rules set more productive), I have pushed to move this confrontation to a "neutral" third world.

I've also included an example of something that would be "fair", while being decidedly not neutral.


Given that it is not clear that incorporeality even exists on the real world, I am interested to hear how you think we can counter it.

I would say that, because incorporeality isn't known to exist in the real world we cannot be sure how modern concepts (like radiation) would react with it - so modern concepts may effect incorporeal beings. But I don't see how we can say that with confidence.

Because jade exists in our world.

Also, slightly questionable RAW, but getting the pope to bless the army's nukes might be a thing. (because apparently holy water beats incorporeal? Is that a Pathfinder thing? Because people keep saying it.)


What you have done goes someway toward what I have been suggesting. You have created a new world in an effort to minimise any environmental advantage to either side (whether that has been done in a fair way is a whole other debate). I still think you would need to address clashes between the rule-sets though.

Created a new world, yes. But one designed to stack the deck as far in the army's favor as possible while still being fair about it.

Because there are a lot of possible interpretations that are all fair (and plenty more that are not at all fair, or that break the spirit of the question).

I have simply tried to choose the fair one that most benefits the army. I think I've done a reasonably good job.

And tried to set this confrontation up in a more "standardized" format.


I'm sure different people's PC wizards are optimised in different ways and would handle this encounter differently. My objection is to my impression that most people are imagining themselves as playing the wizard and are consequentially (and I think this is reasonably demonstrable and not just an impression) assuming the wizard is fairly optimised with all sorts of magic gear and appropriate spells in spellbook. On the other hand the Chinese army remains completely non optimised - no assignment of their ability scores in advantageous ways, no focussing all their learning (skills and feats) only on what will make them part of the most powerful army possible etc.

A simple resolution is to assume the Level 20 wizard presented in the DMG. That has stats, magic items, and spellbook set out. I haven't checked it, but I expect that it would not be able to execute most of the tactics (and defences) set out in this thread.

Another alternative is to use the 3.5 canon wizard - Mialee. I think she is stated in the Heroes and Allies book (with spellbook and magic items). The advantage with Mialee is that we may also have an insight into tactics she would use, and may be able to infer how she would react to an attempt at seduction by a person intent on poisoning her etc.


Those sub-optimal stat blocks only exist because they were created in a vacuum where WotC assumed that their standards of power and survival would suffice; this assumption, that the world would allow not just unoptimal, but hilariously unoptimal characters to make it to high levels goes against the concept of natural selection. Your unwillingness to accept this is well-documented at this point, and I don't see much point in continuing to attempt to show you why assuming the Wizard is crap is a bad assumption.

For the record, my characters are probably about as unoptimized as you're likely to see in a PC. Most of them were originally 2e wizards - meaning random stats (ok, not completely random, as you require int 9+ to qualify as a wizard), whatever random spells they happened to find on their adventures, and things like Run, Endurance, and Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Shuriken are among the highlights of their post-conversion stat blocks.

Even so, almost every one can defeat the Chinese army handily. At least, as 3.x characters - I know nothing of Pathfinder.

One does so purely by coincidence: in 2e, they were a lich with regeneration. In 3e, that translates to "damage converted to subdual" and "immune to subdual", which translates to immune to damage. And immune to poison, and disease, and hunger, and breathing, and maybe even to seduction (lich-loved says maybe not).

Very little could prevent this naked skeleton from turning China into a new necropolis - even nukes should, at worst, be a 1d10 day inconvenience.

Now, if someone IRL, who is also a part of the Chinese army, can turn undead as a 60th level cleric, that would be a problem.


I'm reading through "Rasputin Must Die", and will be pulling out parts relevant for the discussion; that adventure addresses how Pathfinder mechanics operate in the "real world", at a high (but not super-high) level. We'll see how they handle it.

This is awesome, but, to be fair, it is also one-sided. What I would like to see is a D&D expert who converts D&D characters into real world "stats". An example of what I mean: the hit percentage of the U.S. army is x, the hit percentage of the Chinese army is y, the hit percentage of the D&D mage is z. The effective range of engagement of the U.S. army is m, the effective range of engagement of the Chinese army is n, the effective range of engagement of the D&D mage is o. Etc etc.

But, honestly, that would matter much more in a proper war of soldiers vs fighters. High level magic tends to make such numbers not really matter.

[Vogonjeltz]

You keep assuming the wizard is going to walk up to somebody and do all this in the open. While he might the first one or two times if he really has no clue that magic is not known and trusted here, he's not stupid and will figure it out fast. Casting tongues in an alleyway and then walking out speaking the local language won't really be all that suspicious.

Sure. If he's really confident he can do this without interference. That dude is going to quickly learn that the world is still a weird place and that he has a lot to learn, and he'll hole up in a fortress somewhere with his mind-slaves feeding him information.

I mean, yes, I do make that assumption, but I think it's warranted based on Wizardly behavior in the normal D&D settings. For most settings Wizards seem to exhibit no compunction at all about walking around and casting spells. For the particular set of Wizards who are probable candidates of this thought experiment, I think they lack the self-awareness required to even consider that their actions could possibly come with dangerous negative repercussions.

With the example NPC I provided, caution isn't even part of their vocabulary, they literally don't care what those around them think about the NPCs actions.


Or just "up on the roof." And then he casts invisibility and his overland flight lets him go away in ways nobody watching suspects.

Not to be too much of a martinet, but it requires either stating a direction (I would not consider "up on the roof" to be a direction, but he'd also have to get the specific distance correct, which is beyond improbable considering the Wizard would have no idea at all how high up the roof is, or if the roof is even something that could be stood on) or visualizing the area which the Wizard could not possibly achieve for a location they'd never been to and can not see.

Aside from that, just assuming the Wizard did manage to get to a roof, Invisiblity would only last 20 minutes at which point you'd have a flying man in a city. That's gonna get seen.


Again, you assume he walks up to your face and tries this. Rather than, say, looking across the street at a likely mark and casting. Sure, somebody near him might notice the weird gestures and speech, but the target who feels the "hostile force" won't likely see a thing.

People walking up and asking you for a few bucks is not all that weird. Only an idiot wizard would say "give me your coin purse," because he doesn't necessarily know he's successfully charmed the mark. And wizards aren't idiots. Almost by definition.

Line of sight teleport works. And a wizard may well have scoped out a safe point to retreat to anyway. If all else fails, there's "500 feet straight up." Remember his all-day-long overland flight.

I mean, yes, typically all powerful Wizards seeking world domination don't care how it looks and aren't trying to be subtle about things.

It's both weird and alarming when they are dressed the way a Wizard is. Being intelligent isn't the same thing as being wise, and most Wizards by definition are intelligent, but they are not, by definition, wise. Indeed, most Wizards exhibit a distinct lack of wisdom, which is why they go about doing imminently foolish things like...well like what the Wizard of this thread is apparently doing.

Line of sight has a high rate of success (albeit not total), but that wouldn't really help since they'd still be visible from the same area by necessity.

[Strigon]

I mean, yes, I do make that assumption, but I think it's warranted based on Wizardly behavior in the normal D&D settings. For most settings Wizards seem to exhibit no compunction at all about walking around and casting spells. For the particular set of Wizards who are probable candidates of this thought experiment, I think they lack the self-awareness required to even consider that their actions could possibly come with dangerous negative repercussions.

With the example NPC I provided, caution isn't even part of their vocabulary, they literally don't care what those around them think about the NPCs actions.

Wait, I'm missing something. Why are we assuming the Wizard is - for lack of a better word - a moron? This is a place where he doesn't know the culture, laws, or even necessarily the language. There are any number of reasons why, even in the D&D universe, you might not want everybody to know that you're an all-powerful Wizard, and since he doesn't know anything about this place, it only makes sense for him to assume the worst.



Not to be too much of a martinet, but it requires either stating a direction (I would not consider "up on the roof" to be a direction, but he'd also have to get the specific distance correct, which is beyond improbable considering the Wizard would have no idea at all how high up the roof is, or if the roof is even something that could be stood on) or visualizing the area which the Wizard could not possibly achieve for a location they'd never been to and can not see.

Aside from that, just assuming the Wizard did manage to get to a roof, Invisiblity would only last 20 minutes at which point you'd have a flying man in a city. That's gonna get seen.

Judging distances isn't really that hard. Especially if you're a super genius. And, once again, I don't think it's unreasonable to give him the benefit of not broadcasting his abilities - that means avoiding flying while visible.





It's both weird and alarming when they are dressed the way a Wizard is. Being intelligent isn't the same thing as being wise, and most Wizards by definition are intelligent, but they are not, by definition, wise. Indeed, most Wizards exhibit a distinct lack of wisdom, which is why they go about doing imminently foolish things like...well like what the Wizard of this thread is apparently doing.

Line of sight has a high rate of success (albeit not total), but that wouldn't really help since they'd still be visible from the same area by necessity.

They aren't necessarily wise by definition, but at the very least they shouldn't be completely reckless, and they should have 20 levels' worth of experience to back it up. Even with 10 Wisdom - let's go with average here, because I think a Wizard would have high Wisdom, while you seem to think it should be low, so working from a middle ground seems reasonable - by level 20, he should have learned the benefits of subtlety. A Wizard with just common knowledge should be able to recognize that, when thrown into a completely foreign scenario, he shouldn't draw attention to himself. This is very basic stuff, and even if he couldn't work it out from his Wisdom score, he should have learned it long ago from experience.

[Segev]

Actually, I can think of two "typical wizard approaches" for a strange new civilization:

1) Wizards are subtle and intelligent, and recognize that they stand out with their weird clothing, and want to go in prepared. Heck, let's be honest, here, our typical assumptions about the level 20 wizard is that he doesn't brush his teeth without first divining whether his toothpaste has been poisoned. Upon realizing that this is a new place with cultures and styles and magical accoutrements (which cars and the like would seem to be to him), he's perfectly able to hop into a magnificent mansion until he can rest and recover spells, making sure to pick up his divination suite to learn as much as he can about the area before exposing himself to it. He'll learn how they'd react (in general) to a wizard, whether to draw attention to his power or hide it, he'll probably figure out that magic is rare-to-unknown, and he'll learn some basics about what approach to take, which means he'll quickly learn that subtlety is going to get him a lot further than overt expressions of power.

2) Wizards are powerful and overt, and will walk into town and proclaim their status, possibly with big fireworks and impressive displays to prove it. Still, one does not open by fireballing random citizenry; one never knows what other adventurers are lurking about. Most modern people would think he's putting on a performance of some sort. Seriously, look at how people react to over-the-top scenes in New York or other big cities; they gather to watch, and clap. He's likely to first realize he's doing something...off...when the police arrive and tell him he needs a permit or that he can't do that here. Again, not being stupid, he knows he can't just fricassee the local guard for telling him the rules of the city; who knows what kind of powerful wizards are either in the nobility or are advising them? If he finds himself pressed by those who think him mad or dangerous, he enacts an escape plan, and goes to (1). If not, he learns that subtlety is good and pretending to be a faker is better than being thought of as a madman...or revealing his power in a place so alien as to not know of magic, but yet have wonders the likes of which he's never seen before.


In either event, it doesn't take great wisdom to avoid drawing attention to disastrous levels. Even if he made the news, the world at large would dismiss it as a hoax or a really impressive bit of street theater. Investigations wouldn't give "magic" a serious consideration at all. By the time he was ready to take on the Chinese Army, he'd have way more knowledge of them than they did of him, and would easily be in position for any of the plans we've outlined. (My favorite is still the infiltration one where he charms his way to the top.)

It takes not lack of wisdom, but utter bone-headed stupidity to walk in like you rule the world already. As rare as level 20 wizards are, they still have to worry about other threats on their CR range. If he's properly paranoid, he probably suspects there are one or more levle 20 wizards who are hiding magic from the world to be its secret masters, or something, as his FIRST guess. Because that'd be the worst case scenario for him.

[awa]

that's the thing we have two choices the god wizard who shatters CR who things he untouchable wont do those dumb things because his caution is what makes him a god wizard.

The normally wizard who is not a paranoid lunatic is not arrogant because he lives in a world of other cr 20 monsters who can seriously threaten him.

Assuming a standard d&d setting we actually look way more dangerous then we are, our buildings are huge and we have thousands of largemetal constructs rolling around in vast armies filling the streets with light and noise. He has no reason to assume just by looking at him that a car is effectively harmless bare minimum he thinks its an animated object possibly a golem.

[Segev]

Assuming a standard d&d setting we actually look way more dangerous then we are, our buildings are huge and we have thousands of largemetal constructs rolling around in vast armies filling the streets with light and noise. He has no reason to assume just by looking at him that a car is effectively harmless bare minimum he thinks its an animated object possibly a golem.

Or some sort of Magical Beast; there are a few in D&D with metallic shells, and their roars as they move are disturbing. And if you get in their way they SCREAM at you! They screech as they come to a quick stop and they blare a warning, angry cry in a staccato pattern. Then their human lures curse at you, possibly casting spells with those gestures that accompany it. (Okay, your Spellcraft tells you they're not, but man, those things are trying to mimic it!)

[awa]

not to mention smart phones and automatic doors etc at a glance we have a ton of magic being used very casually. The internet would seem a very powerful divination tool that can be used at will by anyone, that would be one heck of a magic item at first glance.

[Quertus]

The premise of the thread is them fighting each other, is it not?

Thus, it is, IMO, best to just start with, "and they both want to kill each other".

[Segev]

The premise of the thread is them fighting each other, is it not?

Thus, it is, IMO, best to just start with, "and they both want to kill each other".

That still starts with "The wizard uses his supreme magical power to go into hiding long enough to learn all he can and formulate his plans for wiping them out."

To make it PARTICULARY interesting, let's say China somehow knows that this wizard is a level 20 PF wizard and has access to all of the rules of PF to analyze the full potential capabilities of this wizard.

I still think they're screwed, but it's a lot harder since they at least know to implement anti-mind-control protocols (e.g. checks to make sure key personnel are NOT mind-controlled before they're allowed to make critical decisions), and are aware they have to deal with a teleporting flying invisible sapient WMD under the best of circumstances.

That variant on the scenario now opens up the door to seeing what sorts of countermeasures might be put into place, given the capabilities of the real-world military in question, since they know the potential of the threat, even if they don't know his precise build or MO.

[awa]

one thing they need to worry about though is that wizards have so many ways of tricking people mind control, mind manipulation, illusion, shape shifting +mind reading minions, that trying to account for all of them might just cause them to collapse without the wizard casting a single spell as paranoia and conspiracy eats them alive from within.

Additionally is resources the army has finite funds and material if they try and build counter measures to everything a wizard can do they will run out of resources before the wizard runs out of tricks. Particularly since some of the more esoteric spells would require extensive research and development before they even have a possibility of defense. (shadows and ethereal)

[Belzyk]

I'm just gonna say this once. Science is magic so someone with enough since could learn to beat a wizard.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I'm just gonna say this once. Science is magic so someone with enough since could learn to beat a wizard.*Citation needed.

[dascarletm]

*Citation needed.

Clarke's First through Third Laws?1



1: "'Hazards of Prophecy: The Failure of Imagination'" in the collection Profiles of the Future: An Enquiry into the Limits of the Possible (1962, rev. 1973), pp. 14, 21, 36.

:smalltongue:

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Clarke's First through Third Laws1?



1: "'Hazards of Prophecy: The Failure of Imagination'" in the collection Profiles of the Future: An Enquiry into the Limits of the Possible (1962, rev. 1973), pp. 14, 21, 36.

:smalltongue:That's RAI, not RAW. We don't deal with your kind, here. :smallannoyed:

:smallwink:

[Belzyk]

*Citation needed.

Give me the definition of science and the definition of magic. There's your citation. Science is learning about the laws of the universe and how it works. Also nearing how to bend and manipulate it. Magic is understanding the laws of the universe and how to manipulate and bend it also. Ergo they are one and the same. What is magic to one person is seen as science to another.

Also here is your citation

http://physics.about.com/od/physics101thebasics/f/ClarkesLaws.htm

[awa]

I'm just gonna say this once. Science is magic so someone with enough since could learn to beat a wizard.
yheah but the Chinese don't have enough, I bet Starfleet (star trek) being smart about their technology could give a wizard a run for his money. They have enough weird inconsistent technology that finding something that could hurt a wizard is quite possible. But that still does not help the Chinese who have only real world technology.

[Belzyk]

yheah but the Chinese don't have enough, I bet Starfleet (star trek) being smart about their technology could give a wizard a run for his money. They have enough weird inconsistent technology that finding something that could hurt a wizard is quite possible. But that still does not help the Chinese who have only real world technology.

Humans could hit a incopreal wizard just by using electricity or a electric current. Also radiation could be seen as negative energy. A incorpreal being still consists of something. Ergo Radiation would give it the middle finger and damage it. Same goes for etherealness. There are many real world things that are the exact same thing as magic and fantasy.

Also gating in creatures that can be slain by swords and arrows and mace and all that would be very very vulnerable to extremely fast moving bullets. Only thing that wouldn't would be things that are able to regenerate body parts. Or effectively immortal.

[AvatarVecna]

Humans could hit a incopreal wizard just by using electricity or a electric current.

I see nothing in either the Incorporeal Subtype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#subtype-incorporeal) or the Incorporeal Special Quality (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Incorporeal-Ex-) that says electricity bypasses. I mean, I agree that Worm is an awesome story, to be sure, but Wildbow's WoG is not RAW for Pathfinder.

[awa]

Humans could hit a incopreal wizard just by using electricity or a electric current. Also radiation could be seen as negative energy. A incorpreal being still consists of something. Ergo Radiation would give it the middle finger and damage it. Same goes for etherealness. There are many real world things that are the exact same thing as magic and fantasy

wrong on all accounts those thing exist in pathfinder and don't work
in pathfinder radiation is treated as a poison which is trivial for a wizard to protect himself from
only magic electricity hurts incorporeal creatures

[Belzyk]

I see nothing in either the Incorporeal Subtype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#subtype-incorporeal) or the Incorporeal Special Quality (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Incorporeal-Ex-) that says electricity bypasses. I mean, I agree that Worm is an awesome story, to be sure, but Wildbow's WoG is not RAW for Pathfinder.

Could a wizard hit a incorpreal being with lightning magic? If so humans could do the same with electricity considering it's the same thing

[Belzyk]

wrong on all accounts those thing exist in pathfinder and don't work
in pathfinder radiation is treated as a poison which is trivial for a wizard to protect himself from
only magic electricity hurts incorporeal creatures

Ok but the wizard is here in our world using his magic. So radiation is still going to rip his atoms to pieces. You use fantasy logic to try and back things. But if your using fantasy logic you have to also use real world logic.

[awa]

its really not because non-magic lightning exists in pathfinder and does not work

[Segev]

Are incorporeal creatures taking half damage from "magical energy damage," or do they take half damage from "energy damage," regardless of whether it's magical or not?

Can an incorporeal creature stand in a campfire without getting hurt? I know a fireball deals half damage. I don't know if environmental fire deals half damage or no damage.

[awa]

Ok but the wizard is here in our world using his magic. So radiation is still going to rip his atoms to pieces. You use fantasy logic to try and back things. But if your using fantasy logic you have to also use real world logic.

no because he's immune to it and can heal the damage done to himself