Ranger / Mage.... / Thief?

[Maxilian]

Hello everyone, i have been playing around with a

Ranger 4 / Wizard 2
Beast Master / Artificier

I'm mostly a melee character (i can easily fight at range, and when i fight in melee is with a hit and run tactic or i gotta have advantage over my enemy -have it pinned down or something-)


The Artificer let me create some potions (Mainly the potion of Growth) that give me advantage on all my str checks (and adding a little extra to my damage -not a big deal that-, though its nice to come flying down on top of my enemies when you weith x8 more :P), i can also use the potion on my pet to have a nice flying mount (Reflavored Pterodactyl).

But... now i'm not sure what to go with, should i continue lvling Ranger?, what do i gain:

-That basically gives my pet more HP, i do got an ingame "buff" for my pet (-Yeah, that part is HomeBrew-)

-Getting more Ranger lvl let me use spell slot lvl 2 (something i still don't have, it hasn't been a problem yet though)

-Even though i'm not a Ranger lvl 5 i got Extra Attack (Thanks to my DM, so there's not much to get out of the lvl 5 IMO)

Another option is to go Wizard, what do i gain:

-As a lvl 4 Ranger and 2 Wizard, if i continue Wizard i evade prolonging my ASIS (or feat)

-Gives me extra spell slot (that i could use for others things, like other types of potions -not that interested on the other types of potion though, i should read a little more about them to see what interesting thing i could do)


But now come that third class i would like to Multiclass into, Rogue, why?

-At lvl 1 i get expertice, making my STR checks even harder for my enemies to pass.

-At lvl 2 i get Sneak Attack, is just an extra dice but will help me make sure my damage don't suffer that much the rogue MC.

-At lvl 2 i get to do extra things with my Bonus Action (Not something that i want that much, but its a nice extra, even more cause i could use my Bonus Action to Dash in combat -I have the Feat Mobile, so i won't need to use my Bonus Action for the Disengage action that much-

Note: My lvls in Wizard make my HP go down quite a bit, so the extra mobility helps me a lot, making sure i'm not even a viable target

-At lvl 3 i would go Thief and would get the ability to use an object as my bonus action (letting me use my potions with my bonus action)


What do you guys think? is this a silly idea?

Note: Something really important, at lvl 5 -ranger- is when i would normally get Extra Attack (but i got it -My DM wanted to make an "heroic" kind of campaign that's why i may look "stronger" than what i actually are- still mobs are of an appropiate difficulty)

[R.Shackleford]

Hello everyone, i have been playing around with a

Ranger 4 / Wizard 2
Beast Master / Artificier

I'm mostly a melee character (i can easily fight at range, and when i fight in melee is with a hit and run tactic or i gotta have advantage over my enemy -have it pinned down or something-)


The Artificer let me create some potions (Mainly the potion of Growth) that give me advantage on all my str checks (and adding a little extra to my damage -not a big deal that-, though its nice to come flying down on top of my enemies when you weith x8 more :P), i can also use the potion on my pet to have a nice flying mount (Reflavored Pterodactyl).

But... now i'm not sure what to go with, should i continue lvling Ranger? (That basically gives my pet more HP, i do got a way ingame to "buff" my pet so i don't think this is that needed -Yeah, that part is HB-) but also getting more Ranger lvl let me use spell slot lvl 2 (something i still don't have, it hasn't been a problem yet though), going with Wizard makes me evade prolonging my ASIS (or feat) and still gives me extra spell slot (that i could use for others things, like other types of potions -not that interested on the other types of potion though, i should read a little more about them to see what interesting thing i could do) either way, why i want Thief? well first lvl 1 I can become better with my STR checks (Helping me make stupidily fun things! -I did not know that high STR was this fun-), at lvl 2 i get things to do with my Bonus action that doesn't consume anything (Making me more mobile if needed -Note i have the Mobile feat so that makes it easier for me to use the Dash as my Bonus action even when i'm at my enemies range -if i tried to him them of course- and at lvl 3 i get the ability to use objects as my bonus action (letting me use my potions with my bonus action) -and would most likely get lvl 4 just for the ASIS....

What do you guys think? is this a silly idea?

Note: Something really important, at lvl 5 -ranger- is when i would normally get Extra Attack (but i got it -My DM wanted to make an "heroic" kind of campaign that's why i may look "stronger" than what i actually are- still mobs are of an appropiate difficulty)

It is really extremely hard to read your post. I tried breaking it up based on when you used the - but... Sometimes that makes sense and other times I'm not so sure...

Could you post your build/character sheet and ask your questions straight up?

[JellyPooga]

Even if you've already got Extra Attack (as I understand you have), taking Ranger lvl.5 is a big boost. Getting access to Pass Without Trace, alone, is worth it.

After that, then Rogue 2 (or more) is always a welcome addition to most builds. In your case, however, the bonus actions granted by Cunning Action are competing with a plethora of bonus actions you already have access to, so might not be as tempting as they might otherwise be.

A Rogue 1 dip for Sneak Attack and Expertise would probably be fun if the game isn't going to last much longer. If, however, you're looking at an extended campaign (i.e. level 10+), then I'd stick with Ranger and Wizard; there's no point in watering your abilities down too much, otherwise you'll feel seriously underpowered once you hit the mid-high levels (around the level 12-15+ mark).

To summarise;
1) Grab Ranger 5 as a priority.
2) Consider if Rogue is worth it;
2a) If "Yes", grab a level or two and go to (3)
2b) If "No", go to (3)
3) Consider what focus you want you character to have;
3a) If "Combat", advance Ranger
3b) If "Magic", advance Wizard
3c) If "Awesomesauce", advance Rogue

(NB- Ignore (3c)...that's just my Rogue-bias talking :smallwink:)

[Citan]

Hello everyone, i have been playing around with a

Ranger 4 / Wizard 2
Beast Master / Artificier

I'm mostly a melee character (i can easily fight at range, and when i fight in melee is with a hit and run tactic or i gotta have advantage over my enemy -have it pinned down or something-)


The Artificer let me create some potions (Mainly the potion of Growth) that give me advantage on all my str checks (and adding a little extra to my damage -not a big deal that-, though its nice to come flying down on top of my enemies when you weith x8 more :P), i can also use the potion on my pet to have a nice flying mount (Reflavored Pterodactyl).

Note: Something really important, at lvl 5 -ranger- is when i would normally get Extra Attack (but i got it -My DM wanted to make an "heroic" kind of campaign that's why i may look "stronger" than what i actually are- still mobs are of an appropiate difficulty)

Well, Ranger 5 main feature is Extra Attack after all (contrarily to Jelly Pooga, I don't think a level of Ranger is worth it just for that one spell).
Ranger 6 is about improving features you don't talk about at all, so I guess you don't really care about them.
Ranger 7 though is important imo for a beast master build. However, from what I read, you don't use your beastmaster features to attack, just as a scout or mount. And you don't seem to care about its combat efficiency either. So, I suppose you could keep a status quo on your pet (although, if you DO use it in fight after all, I'd say going Ranger 7 is nearly mandatory).
Meaning advancement is either Wizard or Rogue.
I'd say Wizard first because...
1. You get your ASI faster, and you probably need it (or at least you can make good use of it).
2. With your next level in Wizard, you can grab Enlarge. Sure it does use your concentration, and that's a hassle, but for your STR checks focus I think it's a fair enough palliative to wait for a "maybe later" Rogue dip.
And since you are a Wizard, you can also grab many other good spells with a bit of chance or Wizard friends (Blindness, See Invisibility, Suggestion, Mirror Image, Web...)...
And having more spell slots is always a good thing imo. :)
Once you get Ranger 4 / Wizard 5 (or 6 if you didn't get a magic weapon and armor before) and get powerful 3rd level spells you can think about your next move, for example that Rogue dip...

[Maxilian]

Well, Ranger 5 main feature is Extra Attack after all (contrarily to Jelly Pooga, I don't think a level of Ranger is worth it just for that one spell).

I know that that spell is really good, but i don't think it alone make it "worthy" (But the possibility to use Spell Slot lvl 2 is quite nice)



Ranger 6 is about improving features you don't talk about at all, so I guess you don't really care about them.


You're right, i don't really care about those things



Ranger 7 though is important imo for a beast master build. However, from what I read, you don't use your beastmaster features to attack, just as a scout or mount. And you don't seem to care about its combat efficiency either. So, I suppose you could keep a status quo on your pet (although, if you DO use it in fight after all, I'd say going Ranger 7 is nearly mandatory).

Well i don't see much point on getting the lvl 7 improvement for my pet, cause as a Pterodactyl (Actually a Pteranodon) they don't provoke OA thanks to Flyby (So no need for the disengage action), i got a Familiar (from the Find Familiar spell) so i can use it to give the Help action with my Bonus Action, so also... another thing i don't really need)



Meaning advancement is either Wizard or Rogue.
I'd say Wizard first because...
1. You get your ASI faster, and you probably need it (or at least you can make good use of it).

I was thinking the same.



2. With your next level in Wizard, you can grab Enlarge. Sure it does use your concentration, and that's a hassle, but for your STR checks focus I think it's a fair enough palliative to wait for a "maybe later" Rogue dip.

No real need for the Enlarge spell, cause i as an Artificer (Eberron Unearthed Arcana) can create some potions and one of those is the potion of Growth (that last way longer than the Enlarge spell and doesn't require concentration.



And since you are a Wizard, you can also grab many other good spells with a bit of chance or Wizard friends (Blindness, See Invisibility, Suggestion, Mirror Image, Web...)...
And having more spell slots is always a good thing imo. :)

Totally true



Once you get Ranger 4 / Wizard 5 (or 6 if you didn't get a magic weapon and armor before) and get powerful 3rd level spells you can think about your next move, for example that Rogue dip...

Thanks a lot, it was a lot of help, i may do as you say :smallbiggrin:

[Maxilian]

It is really extremely hard to read your post. I tried breaking it up based on when you used the - but... Sometimes that makes sense and other times I'm not so sure...

Could you post your build/character sheet and ask your questions straight up?

I... tried to reorganize the ideas to make it easier to read, hope that works :smallredface:

[Maxilian]

Even if you've already got Extra Attack (as I understand you have), taking Ranger lvl.5 is a big boost. Getting access to Pass Without Trace, alone, is worth it.


The main extra for the lvl 5 is mainly Extra Attack, but i do also get the lvl 2 Spell Slot (something i still don't have) and that spell is really good (Not that interested in it though but i'm pretty sure i would use it a lot)



After that, then Rogue 2 (or more) is always a welcome addition to most builds. In your case, however, the bonus actions granted by Cunning Action are competing with a plethora of bonus actions you already have access to, so might not be as tempting as they might otherwise be.

A Rogue 1 dip for Sneak Attack and Expertise would probably be fun if the game isn't going to last much longer. If, however, you're looking at an extended campaign (i.e. level 10+), then I'd stick with Ranger and Wizard; there's no point in watering your abilities down too much, otherwise you'll feel seriously underpowered once you hit the mid-high levels (around the level 12-15+ mark).



That's totally true, the 2 things that i'm most interested about of Rogue is the lvl 1 Expertise (to make my STR check a real problem for my enemies) and the lvl 3 subclass Thief, cause that give me the option to use my potions as a bonus action.

But why is Expertise only useful if the game is not going to last long? does it become... useless at higher lvls?



To summarise;
1) Grab Ranger 5 as a priority.
2) Consider if Rogue is worth it;
2a) If "Yes", grab a level or two and go to (3)
2b) If "No", go to (3)
3) Consider what focus you want you character to have;
3a) If "Combat", advance Ranger
3b) If "Magic", advance Wizard
3c) If "Awesomesauce", advance Rogue

(NB- Ignore (3c)...that's just my Rogue-bias talking :smallwink:)


The lvl 5 Ranger is a "maybe" for me, cause i don't get that much out of it, and if i go Wizard i don't push back my ASIS.

Either way, thanks a lot for your response this does help a lot!

[Citan]

The main extra for the lvl 5 is mainly Extra Attack, but i do also get the lvl 2 Spell Slot (something i still don't have) and that spell is really good (Not that interested in it though but i'm pretty sure i would use it a lot)

Well, going Wizard 3 will give you 2nd level spells all the same so no-brainer here. ;)




That's totally true, the 2 things that i'm most interested about of Rogue is the lvl 1 Expertise (to make my STR check a real problem for my enemies) and the lvl 3 subclass Thief, cause that give me the option to use my potions as a bonus action.

But why is Expertise only useful if the game is not going to last long? does it become... useless at higher lvls?

So I understand now, I mixed Rogue expertise (+double proficiency) and Enlarge (+advantage) which is made into a potion of Growth. So you don't need Enlarge indeed. ^^
I don't understand what you want so hard Thief for? As I understand, your potions last quite a time anyways, so can't you just flush them as soon as you sense any danger? Or do they last only 1-2 minutes, in which case I understand the desire for potions as bonus action?

Also, I think what JellyPooga meant was that, if you go high enough in level character, it means you could actually get up to 9th level spells which are gravvy. Since you already took 3 levels as Ranger, you're already "at the limit": any further level in Ranger or Rogue will permanently prevent you to access 9th level spells (and 8th if you take Rogue 3+ or Ranger 6+).
Not meaning that this is a bad choice per se. But it is a hard consideration to make, between playing with the most powerful spells or sacrificing them for earlier (but also strong) benefits.

It really boils down to "how strong am I interested in the highest level spells" question. And we can't answer that for you. ;)

[JellyPooga]

But why is Expertise only useful if the game is not going to last long? does it become... useless at higher lvls?

It's not that Expertise becomes less useful; it scales better than many Class Features. Taking that Rogue level or three is what will cripple you.

Put it this way;
- You're only playing with 1st level spells at 6th level (albeit 2nd level slots).
- Add a level of Rogue.
- You're now still playing with 1st level spells at 7th level.
- Now add 5 level of Wizard (making you Ranger 4/Rogue 1/Wizard 7)
- You're a 9th level Caster (so you have 5th level slots), but only have access to 4th level spells.

Compare this to a straight Wizard 12, who has 6th level slots and spells. You're lagging fairly significantly in the spellslinging department (which is, let's be honest, what high level play is all about).

Now imagine you want to grab the Thief features; that's another 2 levels of Rogue, bumping you up to level 14 and you still only have 4th level spells and low-level abilities, while Mr.Single-Class is playing with 7th level spells and has his 14th level Arcane School feature. But hey, you've got Athletics Expertise and can jump and climb and drink potions real good. The Wizard has ready access to Freedom of Movement, Fly and Plane Shift. You...are a very tough, but ultimately low-level character with little synergy between your classes.

Front-loaded Classes are tempting to dip and in a short game, that's great. What you miss out on at higher levels, however, is rarely worth the cost; those higher level Class Features are generally worth a lot more than lower level ones.

[Maxilian]

Well, going Wizard 3 will give you 2nd level spells all the same so no-brainer here. ;)

You're totally right, forgot the Wizard get spell slot lvl 2 much faster than a seudo caster like the Ranger



So I understand now, I mixed Rogue expertise (+double proficiency) and Enlarge (+advantage) which is made into a potion of Growth. So you don't need Enlarge indeed. ^^
I don't understand what you want so hard Thief for? As I understand, your potions last quite a time anyways, so can't you just flush them as soon as you sense any danger? Or do they last only 1-2 minutes, in which case I understand the desire for potions as bonus action?

Actually the potion last... minimum 1 hour (i roll a 1d4 and whatever i get is how many hours it will last), and is true i could basically use it before but i rarely got the opportunity (or there are other things i could do that may be more usefull) and even if i got it in myself, i may want to use it on my team or my own pet (this have happened a lot) and i also got the ability to create normal potions (and with a spell slot lvl 2 even stronger potions) and its quite usefull to be able to heal with a bonus action.



Also, I think what JellyPooga meant was that, if you go high enough in level character, it means you could actually get up to 9th level spells which are gravvy. Since you already took 3 levels as Ranger, you're already "at the limit": any further level in Ranger or Rogue will permanently prevent you to access 9th level spells (and 8th if you take Rogue 3+ or Ranger 6+).
Not meaning that this is a bad choice per se. But it is a hard consideration to make, between playing with the most powerful spells or sacrificing them for earlier (but also strong) benefits.

It really boils down to "how strong am I interested in the highest level spells" question. And we can't answer that for you. ;)

Well i already have 4 lvl as Ranger, so spell lvl 9 are out of my possibilities, also i don't really have that much INT (basically the minimun to MC into Wizard) so most spell that are based on DC or hit, are not that useful for me (Making most lvl 8 spells not that usefull for me with a couple of exceptions)

Note: Thanks for the information, it helps a lot

[Citan]

Well i already have 4 lvl as Ranger, so spell lvl 9 are out of my possibilities, also i don't really have that much INT (basically the minimun to MC into Wizard) so most spell that are based on DC or hit, are not that useful for me (Making most lvl 8 spells not that usefull for me with a couple of exceptions)

This... Is quite the game-changing information!
Ok so, if you don't plan on being a caster as far as offensive spell go, then there is indeed not much meaning trying to be as far a caster as possible (also nice note about Ranger being 4 already, forgot about this).

Then, I'd adjust my opinion accordingly: still shoot for Wizard 5 because of 3rd spells, but after that... Do as you wish! ;)
(I'd personnally still aim for Wizard's lvl 5 spells because many great spells, notably the Conjure ones. But leveling Ranger for more sturdy beast and some spells can be nice, as well as just going Rogue the rest of the way up to lvl 11 Reliable Talent).
Since you are "already stuck" into a gish if I may speak as such, it's basically up to which spells and features you want.

Have fun!