Storm Sorcerer / Warlock - help with some mechanical decisions.

[Saryn]

I've been invited to join a campaign that has already been played for several sessions, and need to design a level 3 character for it.
However, the sessions are few and far between, so I am not as worried about making good flavor decisions as I am making a character that can handle encounters well. (I am great friends with the people I will be playing with, so having fun will be easy.)

I have always wanted to try the Sorcerer/Warlock combination, which is pretty good at consistently dealing damage with Agonizing Eldritch Blast. However, rather than using the traditional Draconic Sorcerer Bloodline for the build, I thought I would try out the Storm Sorcerer from the Sword Coast Adventurers Guide.

I understand that I'm not doing anything new here. This post is mostly here because I need advice on some of the non-obvious choices for the build.

The DM had me roll for stats (4d4 drop the lowest), where I got a particularly good result of: 15, 14, 14, 14, 13, 10.

After a bit of tinkering, I have arrived at this prototype:

Stat Array: 10 STR, 14 DEX, 16 CON, 14 INT, 14 WIS, 16 CHA

Race: Half-Elf (Half-Drow variant)
Background: ?
Skills: Arcana and Persuasion from Sorcerer class. Insight and Perception from Half-Elf race. Perception from Keen Senses (Half-Drow variant). ? and ? from background.

Equipment: I will probably be wearing light armor, since I don't have the Draconic boost to AC.

Level 1: Sorcerer 1
-This gets me proficiency in CON saves, which is why I chose to level up Sorcerer first. I chose the Storm Sorcerer bloodline, which gives me access to the Wind Speaker and Tempestuous Magic class features.
Level 2: Warlock 1
-Now we pick up Eldritch Blast, which is the focal point of this build. I chose the Fiend Patron. Since I'm not going to be going very deep in the Warlock class, I based this decision pretty much on the 1st and 2nd level Expanded spells provided by the Patron. Fiend gives me access to Command, which seems very good for a 1st level spell, and it appears to scale well. Also, while minor, the short backstory I wrote lends itself to choosing Fiend.
-We also grab Hex at this level.
Level 3: Warlock 2
-I chose another level of Warlock here because I wanted to get Agonizing Blast ASAP. I chose Repelling Blast as the Second Invocation, with full intention of swapping it out later, if need be.

From here, the plan is to take Warlock 3 at level 4, and then go full Sorcerer from then on, to make full use of the interaction between Warlock Spell Slots and Sorcery Points. Where it gets fun (and what I would like to hopefully get advice on), is seeing if it's possible to somehow make this character a bit of a gish. I would like to use the cantrips Booming Blade and Lightning Lure because they nail the Storm Sorcerer flavor so well, but those lend themselves to a more melee-focused character.

Spells:

Sorcerer Spells:
Cantrips: Shocking Grasp, Thunderclap, ?, ? (Would like to get Booming Blade and Lightning Lure in here, if that's not too insane.)
1st Level Spells: Shield, Sleep (Will Swap Sleep out later, of course.)

Warlock Spells:
Cantrips: Eldritch Blast, Mage Hand
1st Level Spells: Hex, Command

Things I need advice about:

When I reach third level of Warlock, I have no idea which Pact to choose, and I would like advice on that.
I have no idea which background to go with, and need help in that regard.
I need general advice on which spells to choose.
I need advice on gear selection and potential weapon use.
Can I possibly gish-ify this character and get Booming Blade and Lightning Lure in there?

Other than that, I would appreciate any and all constructive criticism you can provide.

Thanks!

EDIT: Minor change to Invocations. Had to get Repelling Blast in there.

EDIT 2: I didn't realize there was an official Half-Drow race in the SCAG. Now aware of this, I have totally changed out the skills for Drow Magic. More spells, even if minor, are always handy. Plus it matches my flavor.

EDIT: Changed stat array as per the suggestion to start with all even numbers.

[Specter]

To gish, you would need better HP and better AC, so stick to being ranged and only use a melee cantrip if you're stuck in melee.

Definitely take Quicken for your metamagic selection. Two Eldritch Blasts? Yes please. Eldritch Blast can't be twinned since it can target more than one creature.

You need to consider whether you want to take more Warlock levels, since at level 2 you get the gist of warlock. I personally wouldn't.

Armor of Agathys is a great Warlock spell.

[CaptAl]

You could absolutely gish this out, but you'd be gimping yourself a bit in combat. Plus, that would make all your cantrips combat focused. It would seriously hurt your utility to do so.

I could see a repelling blast/lightning lure build being interesting with some area spells. If you're set on a gishy build I'd at least drop shocking grasp for Booming Blade, since you can't really use both at the same time without burning spell points.

[Saryn]

You could absolutely gish this out, but you'd be gimping yourself a bit in combat. Plus, that would make all your cantrips combat focused. It would seriously hurt your utility to do so.

I could see a repelling blast/lightning lure build being interesting with some area spells. If you're set on a gishy build I'd at least drop shocking grasp for Booming Blade, since you can't really use both at the same time without burning spell points.

I'm not set on a gishy build, but I would use it if I could do it without harming the base SorcLock idea. If that does so, then I'll stick to just Eldritch Blasting people all day.

One thing that did interest me was hitting Warlock 3, grabbing Pact of the Tome to get Shillelagh, and smacking people with Shillelagh + Booming Blade, but that probably detracts from the good ol' tried and true Eldritch Blaster build.

[Saryn]

To gish, you would need better HP and better AC, so stick to being ranged and only use a melee cantrip if you're stuck in melee.

Definitely take Quicken for your metamagic selection. Two Eldritch Blasts? Yes please. Eldritch Blast can't be twinned since it can target more than one creature.

You need to consider whether you want to take more Warlock levels, since at level 2 you get the gist of warlock. I personally wouldn't.

Armor of Agathys is a great Warlock spell.

You don't think grabbing the pact is worth it? Sacrificing the 18th level Sorc ability is meaningless since I doubt this campaign will go much higher than 10.

[Specter]

You don't think grabbing the pact is worth it? Sacrificing the 18th level Sorc ability is meaningless since I doubt this campaign will go much higher than 10.

Fiend would give you a cool weapon, Tome would give you more cantrips/ritual casting and Chain would give you a superfamiliar. If you think it's worth it, cool, but I wouldn't delay my progression for any of those as a Sorcerer.

[CaptAl]

I'm not set on a gishy build, but I would use it if I could do it without harming the base SorcLock idea. If that does so, then I'll stick to just Eldritch Blasting people all day.

One thing that did interest me was hitting Warlock 3, grabbing Pact of the Tome to get Shillelagh, and smacking people with Shillelagh + Booming Blade, but that probably detracts from the good ol' tried and true Eldritch Blaster build.

It would make you SAD, and the damage from booming blade would help you keep up with an EB focused build. You still don't really give anything a reason to eat the extra damage from BB though. A rogue dip would help there, or the mobile feat.

At level 5, with shillelagh and an 18 CHA, you're looking at 2d8+4 (13) damage on a successful hit with a possible 2d8 (9) if the mob moves, for 22 avg. This same sorlock (Sorc 2/Tome 3) does 2d10+8 with agonizing EB for 19 damage which can be split, is from range, and can be buffed further to add a push effect and quickened for double blast goodness.

Looks viable to me, if not optimal. Especially if you grab the mobile feat for a pseudo disengage to give mobs incentive to eat the extra thunder damage. Or use AoA to punish mobs when they take the opportunity attack when you bail out.

[Citan]

I have always wanted to try the Sorcerer/Warlock combination, which is pretty good at consistently dealing damage with Agonizing Eldritch Blast. However, rather than using the traditional Draconic Sorcerer Bloodline for the build, I thought I would try out the Storm Sorcerer from the Sword Coast Adventurers Guide.

The DM had me roll for stats (4d4 drop the lowest), where I got a particularly good result of: 15, 14, 14, 14, 13, 10.

After a bit of tinkering, I have arrived at this prototype:

Stat Array: 10 STR, 14 DEX, 15 CON, 14 INT, 14 WIS, 17 CHA

Level 1: Sorcerer 1
Level 2: Warlock 1
Level 3: Warlock 2

Things I need advice about:

When I reach third level of Warlock, I have no idea which Pact to choose, and I would like advice on that.
I have no idea which background to go with, and need help in that regard.
I need general advice on which spells to choose.
I need advice on gear selection and potential weapon use.
Can I possibly gish-ify this character and get Booming Blade and Lightning Lure in there?

Other than that, I would appreciate any and all constructive criticism you can provide.

Thanks!

EDIT: Minor change to Invocations. Had to get Repelling Blast in there.
Hi ;)

First, a minor critic about your stat repartition: starting with odd stats in CON and CHA puzzle me.
I would have understood if you planned to get a Resilient feat in either Constitution or Charisma later. But since you start as a Sorcerer, you get both already.
And since...
- you will get your first ASI later than usual
- 15=14 and 17=16 as far as ability modifiers go...
It seems to me much better to do the following with a Half-Elf:
15, 14, 14, 14, 13, 10. >>>> 10 STR, 14 DEX, 15(+1) CON, 13(+1) INT, 14 WIS, 14(+2) CHA. It bumps your HP by 6 at least (+1 HP for every level you gain before getting an ASI), makes you start with all stats in even state, bumps your CON save by one and doesn't change your casting efficiency nor your bump plan (since you can bump a single stat by +2).


I'm not set on a gishy build, but I would use it if I could do it without harming the base SorcLock idea. If that does so, then I'll stick to just Eldritch Blasting people all day.

One thing that did interest me was hitting Warlock 3, grabbing Pact of the Tome to get Shillelagh, and smacking people with Shillelagh + Booming Blade, but that probably detracts from the good ol' tried and true Eldritch Blaster build.
Well, it's either that or getting Pact of the Chain. Except that Pact of the Chain is good but not fantastic if you don't take the related invocations.
Whereas Pact of the Tome brings the most on the table without invocations: Shillelagh + Booming Blade + Lightning Lure and you're set o/
And if you go up to Warlock 5, you can grab the "free ritual learning" (DM dependent though). If there is a Wizard or Cleric in your group, you can do well without though (even if redundancy is rather a good thing in itself, it is not worth sacrificing 2 Sorcerer levels and 9th level spells just for it).

As for spells... Well, it really depends on how you want to play and what other people in your group are playing. ;)
The only advice I could tell right now is, taking Shatter as your 2nd level Warlock spell. That way, you get strong synergy early with your first level of Sorcerer.
Beyond that... I personnally like the idea of a perma-invisible warlock (Greater Invisibilit), that gives the impression that swirls of Eldricht Blast spawn of nowhere... But it uses your concentration slot so it's more of a "solo-YOLO" style...
If you want to focus on thunder/lightning theme (for which choices are obvious) and, beyond that, control then...
For 2nd level, Web and Levitate can be very potent if you manage to go smart about it.
For 3rd level Slow is the best(only?) choice here.
For the higher levels... Well, let's get there first already shall we? :smallbiggrin:

Have fun with your character! :=)

[Draco4472]

I asked a similar question. Here's the thread:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?497631-Optimizing-a-Melee-Warlock-Sorcerer

I was building a more melee-oriented character, but you might get some ideas from this. Hope it helps.

[ZanettonBR]

When I reach third level of Warlock, I have no idea which Pact to choose, and I would like advice on that.
I personally don't like the pact of the blade, but its very solid for a spell-blade Warlock.If you're not one, its the worst possible pact.
The pact of the chain is good, if you're a mage-like warlock, you can use your familiar on demonic steroids to deliver touch spells, if you're not , you can use it to "help" you with the help action, giving you advantage in your weapon attack, if you're a rogue, this is very valuable.
The book of shadows is the best in my opinion, it gives you more spells, which is great for a mage warlock, and adds variety to your arsenal.I always go with this.


I have no idea which background to go with, and need help in that regard.
That is up for personal taste, i would try to imagine the personality of the character and fill the proficiencies that you don't get with the background's proficiencies.

I need general advice on which spells to choose.
Anything that triggers eye of the storm, if you keep using it and affecting enough enemies, it adds up really quickly.I'm sorry, now i dont have the means to check my rulebook for the spell list, but keep in mind the elemental evil books, they have a lot of amazing elemental spells.

I need advice on gear selection and potential weapon use.
First off, be proficient with the armor, if you aren't, you cant cast spells on it.Talking about weapons suggest something with the finesse property, like a giant mace dagger, shortsword or rapier.

Can I possibly gish-ify this character and get Booming Blade and Lightning Lure in there?
Ok,i'm actually working im something like this. Its supposed to be a mobile spellcaster which can adapt to enemy movement without suffering AoO. Its not so much a gish, but is a battle-ready almost-ninja sorcerer:

Tempest cleric 3 (Domain spells, proficiencies and Domain features that are awesome with lightning damage)
Elemental monk 3 ( Mobility,lots of it. And using water whip to pull enemies to AoEs is very fun.Gives you a lot of CC over the battlefield. Also, you have unarmored defense and you can punch like a truck if you dont have weapons available.)
Storm Sorcerer 13 (The reasons why i can make rain thunder, i like to take careful spell (i dont remember exactly the name of it in english,sorry) if i think i'll use a lot of AoEs, which i will btw. The flight speed (which can be horizontal) can make you very mobile,and you don't receive a attack of opportunity, so its awesome to line up those very damaging thunderbolts )

Booming blade deals lightning, but it doesn't trigger AotS, because its a cantrip.
Lightning lure is also good,but it has not so much range, and if they are not pulled close enough, they dont take damage.Still kinda good for CC.

To put some warlock in my build,make consider trading monk for warlock and only getting 2 levels in tempest cleric.
Also,War caster is almost vital for this, but i bet you already know that.

Good luck on your build, let me know how it turns out :)

[Saryn]

Hi ;)

First, a minor critic about your stat repartition: starting with odd stats in CON and CHA puzzle me.
I would have understood if you planned to get a Resilient feat in either Constitution or Charisma later. But since you start as a Sorcerer, you get both already.
And since...
- you will get your first ASI later than usual
- 15=14 and 17=16 as far as ability modifiers go...
It seems to me much better to do the following with a Half-Elf:
15, 14, 14, 14, 13, 10. >>>> 10 STR, 14 DEX, 15(+1) CON, 13(+1) INT, 14 WIS, 14(+2) CHA. It bumps your HP by 6 at least (+1 HP for every level you gain before getting an ASI), makes you start with all stats in even state, bumps your CON save by one and doesn't change your casting efficiency nor your bump plan (since you can bump a single stat by +2).


Well, it's either that or getting Pact of the Chain. Except that Pact of the Chain is good but not fantastic if you don't take the related invocations.
Whereas Pact of the Tome brings the most on the table without invocations: Shillelagh + Booming Blade + Lightning Lure and you're set o/
And if you go up to Warlock 5, you can grab the "free ritual learning" (DM dependent though). If there is a Wizard or Cleric in your group, you can do well without though (even if redundancy is rather a good thing in itself, it is not worth sacrificing 2 Sorcerer levels and 9th level spells just for it).

As for spells... Well, it really depends on how you want to play and what other people in your group are playing. ;)
The only advice I could tell right now is, taking Shatter as your 2nd level Warlock spell. That way, you get strong synergy early with your first level of Sorcerer.
Beyond that... I personnally like the idea of a perma-invisible warlock (Greater Invisibilit), that gives the impression that swirls of Eldricht Blast spawn of nowhere... But it uses your concentration slot so it's more of a "solo-YOLO" style...
If you want to focus on thunder/lightning theme (for which choices are obvious) and, beyond that, control then...
For 2nd level, Web and Levitate can be very potent if you manage to go smart about it.
For 3rd level Slow is the best(only?) choice here.
For the higher levels... Well, let's get there first already shall we? :smallbiggrin:

Have fun with your character! :=)

Thanks for this. The Stat Change is a helpful point. I can't believe I didn't figure that one out.


It would make you SAD, and the damage from booming blade would help you keep up with an EB focused build. You still don't really give anything a reason to eat the extra damage from BB though. A rogue dip would help there, or the mobile feat.

At level 5, with shillelagh and an 18 CHA, you're looking at 2d8+4 (13) damage on a successful hit with a possible 2d8 (9) if the mob moves, for 22 avg. This same sorlock (Sorc 2/Tome 3) does 2d10+8 with agonizing EB for 19 damage which can be split, is from range, and can be buffed further to add a push effect and quickened for double blast goodness.

Looks viable to me, if not optimal. Especially if you grab the mobile feat for a pseudo disengage to give mobs incentive to eat the extra thunder damage. Or use AoA to punish mobs when they take the opportunity attack when you bail out.

I'm still not understanding why these two ideas are mutually exclusive (if that is what you meant). Is it not possible to have plan A be Eldritch Blast spamming, and have the Booming Blade package (via Pact of the Tome and Shillelagh) be your backup plan if you find yourself caught in close-quarters? You can do something like Quicken Booming Blade, hit them, then cast Shocking Grasp, take away their AoO, and then move back, giving them incentive to willingly move? This is at least possible, right? Or am I missing something?

EDIT: It's been a while since I've been hip with the acronyms. SAD (single attribute dependant, I'm assuming) is generally regarded as a good thing, right?

[Citan]

I'm still not understanding why these two ideas are mutually exclusive (if that is what you meant). Is it not possible to have plan A be Eldritch Blast spamming, and have the Booming Blade package (via Pact of the Tome and Shillelagh) be your backup plan if you find yourself caught in close-quarters? You can do something like Quicken Booming Blade, hit them, then cast Shocking Grasp, take away their AoO, and then move back, giving them incentive to willingly move? This is at least possible, right? Or am I missing something?

No, you didn't miss anything, you are perfectly right. :)
Your build is fine as is for your concept, which is having melee fighting as a backup plan.

IF, on the contrary, you had wanted to mix EB and melee equally, then dipping Rogue and/or taking Mobile feat whould have been much more recommended.
For your current concept, it's "just" very good (because Cunning Action is great for everyone anyways, and if you are in a pinch, Dashing as a bonus action can save your life) but not mandatory by far.

[Saryn]

No, you didn't miss anything, you are perfectly right. :)
Your build is fine as is for your concept, which is having melee fighting as a backup plan.

IF, on the contrary, you had wanted to mix EB and melee equally, then dipping Rogue and/or taking Mobile feat whould have been much more recommended.
For your current concept, it's "just" very good (because Cunning Action is great for everyone anyways, and if you are in a pinch, Dashing as a bonus action can save your life) but not mandatory by far.

Were I to dip for Rogue, where in my level progression should that happen?

Current:
Sorcerer 1 - for the CON save proficiency
Warlock 1 - for EB, Hex
Warlock 2 - Invocations
Warlock 3 - Pact
Sorcerer 2 - pick up sorcery points
-From here I was planning to go full Sorc

[Citan]

Were I to dip for Rogue, where in my level progression should that happen?

Current:
Sorcerer 1 - for the CON save proficiency
Warlock 1 - for EB, Hex
Warlock 2 - Invocations
Warlock 3 - Pact
Sorcerer 2 - pick up sorcery points
-From here I was planning to go full Sorc
Well, taking 2 levels in Rogue will further delay your progression as a Sorcerer, and since you want to stay away from the front line, you shouldn't need Cunning Action so much.
Beyond that, Storm's lvl 6 feature is very dependant on your Sorcerer level, so you want it as high as possible.
And any further dip will prevent you from ever getting 9th level spells.

So, my advice would be: continue on Sorcerer as you planned, but watch yourself. If/When you feel you find yourself too often near the front lines or trapped and able to escape only by an hair, whereas if you had Cunning Action it would have been much easier...
Then, and then only, consider dipping Rogue.
"If you don't feel you need it, then you probably don't." ;)

EDIT: and whatever happens, get to Sorcerer 5 ASAP. What good would you be if you can't even unleash a Lightning Bolt? ;)
At very high level though, could be fun to mix a Cunning Action Dash with Heart of the Storm: like, Sorcerer 14 / Swashbuckler Rogue 3 / Warlock 3: move toward enemies, trying to get as many as possible within ten feet. Cast a 1st level spell, automatically dealing 7 damage to all. Dash back to safety. Absolutely not the best efficient move, but I love the "taunt" aspect of the thing... XD

[CaptAl]

I'm still not understanding why these two ideas are mutually exclusive (if that is what you meant). Is it not possible to have plan A be Eldritch Blast spamming, and have the Booming Blade package (via Pact of the Tome and Shillelagh) be your backup plan if you find yourself caught in close-quarters? You can do something like Quicken Booming Blade, hit them, then cast Shocking Grasp, take away their AoO, and then move back, giving them incentive to willingly move? This is at least possible, right? Or am I missing something?

EDIT: It's been a while since I've been hip with the acronyms. SAD (single attribute dependant, I'm assuming) is generally regarded as a good thing, right?

That's absolutely possible, and a solid backup plan. Just be careful with it, those spell points will get expensive if you get caught up in a scrum.

Yes SAD is single attribute dependent and is a good thing.

[Saryn]

On the topic of Pact of the Tome, taking Book of Ancient Secrets invocation is an option.

However, if I do this, I would have to get rid of Repelling Blast, which could be handy if I'm trying to narrowly escape from close-quarters action.

Is the versatility of being able to cast rituals worth losing out on the battlefield control? Or is pushing someone back 10+ feet just awesome?

[Citan]

On the topic of Pact of the Tome, taking Book of Ancient Secrets invocation is an option.

However, if I do this, I would have to get rid of Repelling Blast, which could be handy if I'm trying to narrowly escape from close-quarters action.

Is the versatility of being able to cast rituals worth losing out on the battlefield control? Or is pushing someone back 10+ feet just awesome?
Basically, both answers are right. We can't very well answer for you. Just consider the relative value of each option when taking account your party and your own taste.
For example, if there is a Cleric or a Wizard, that means that you could easily learn many rituals. That also means there is already someone able to use them.
If you have an Open Hand Monk, you may consider that it's enough already to have one pusher. Or on the contrary discuss with him on how to coordinate to create "ping-pong" combinations.

My personal view (personal, as is, not a truth in itself ;)) would be that for a build that want to blast Eldricht Blast all day, the repel effect is too good to pass on. Just remember that the effect applies whether you want it or not, so if you're careless there may be some (rare) situations where pushing a creature is actually detrimental to your party.
In short: Repelling is a must if you're ready to think a bit about how to blast. Otherwise... ^^

[Degwerks]

Having Repelling Blast doesn't mean you have to push the enemy away. The invocation states you can push a creature Up To 10 feet away. Its not automatically 10ft a hit if you choose not to.

[Citan]

Having Repelling Blast doesn't mean you have to push the enemy away. The invocation states you can push a creature Up To 10 feet away. Its not automatically 10ft a hit if you choose not to.
Oh, yeah, you're right, I'm amazed at how I could miss this while having read the bit so many times.
Nevermind me then. ;)

[Saryn]

My personal view (personal, as is, not a truth in itself ;)) would be that for a build that want to blast Eldritch Blast all day, the repel effect is too good to pass on. Just remember that the effect applies whether you want it or not, so if you're careless there may be some (rare) situations where pushing a creature is actually detrimental to your party.
In short: Repelling is a must if you're ready to think a bit about how to blast. Otherwise... ^^

Since you don't have to push the creature, I think having the repel effect is too big to pass up on. I'll probably go with that.

[Saryn]

I got to try this character (at Level 5) in a one-shot adventure another friend of mine ran. The Eldritch Blast control plan worked rather well. Never got a chance to try Shillelagh + Booming Blade but I am hoping to be able to soon.