Swordmaster monk archetype

[clash]

Here is my idea for quick evasive light armored swordmaster.
Let me know what you think.

Swordmaster monk
3: Speed mirage - You dance around the battlefield with such speed and finesse that you can appear to be in two places at once. You can spend 2 ki as a bonus action to create two illusory duplicates of yourself. You make attacks with advantage while they exist. Additionally each time a creature targets you with an attack while they exist, roll a d20 to determine whether the attack instead targets one of your duplicates. With two duplicates, you must roll an 8 or higher. With one duplicate, you must roll an 11 or higher. The duplicates lasts until the start of your next turn or until it is hit with an attack. The duplicates have an ac of 10 + your dex modifier. A creature is unaffected by this effect if it can’t see, if it relies on senses other than sight, such as blindsight, or if it can perceive illusions as false, as with truesight.
6: Blade's edge - You may use monk abilities restricted to unarmed strikes with any slashing or piercing monk weapon. Additionally, when fighting with a slashing or piercing monk weapon you may increase the martial arts damage die by one die size.
11: Steel splitting stone - You have enhanced your blade techniques to the point where you can cleave through even stone as easily as air. While wielding any slashing or piercing monk weapon you can cut through non-magical wood, earth or stone. As a single action you can make a cut up to up to 1 ft deep and 6ft long with this ability.
17: Uncanny strike - When you are attacked by an enemy within 5ft you may spend 1 ki as a reaction to attack the enemy first. Your attack is resolved before the enemy's and if it prevents the opponent from attacking you then their attack is nullified.

Edited to take into account feedback.

[RulesJD]

Here is my idea for quick evasive light armored swordmaster.
Let me know what you think.

Swordmaster monk archetype:
3: Swordmaster - You gain profociency with the longsword and it is counted as a monk weapon. In addtion you may use monk abilities restricted to unarmed strikes with it so long as you use it one-handed. At level 11 you may use the longsword two-handed as a versatile weapon and still apply unarmed strike abilities to it. At level 17 you gain proficiency with the greatsword as well and may use monk abilities restricted to unarmed strikes with it.
6: Uncanny strike - When you are attacked by an enemy within 5ft you may spend 1 ki as a reaction to attack the enemy first. Your attack is resolved before the enemie's and if it prevents the opponent from attacking you then their attack is nullified.
11: Deadly focus - You may spend one ki to enter a state of focus as a bonus action. Your next attack with a monk weapon is automatically treated as a critical hit.
17: Greater flurry - When using flurry of blows you may attack 3 times as a bonus action instead of twice. 1/short rest.

Um, no. That is significantly more powerful than any other Monk archetype, by faaaaar.

Also, the general idea of the build is kind of moot when you just use a Quarterstaff 2-handed. Same damage dice (d8) and having a sword one handed doesn't provide a Monk with any benefit because they can't use shields.

[clash]

Um, no. That is significantly more powerful than any other Monk archetype, by faaaaar.

How is it substantially more powerful. It does in general 1 dmg die of increased dmg, but gives up a lot of utility and control that the other subclasses have. I wasnt sure about deadly focus, but you are giving up essentially 2 attacks from flurry to not quite double the damage on an attack and ensure it hits. The always hit was the part I wasnt sure about.


Also, the general idea of the build is kind of moot when you just use a Quarterstaff 2-handed. Same damage dice (d8) and having a sword one handed doesn't provide a Monk with any benefit because they can't use shields.

The important part is you can use it with martial arts and flurry. This provides monks with the option to completely move away from unarmed strikes should they choose to. I have seen interest in the concept of allowing flurry and martial arts with monk weapons as to not be forced to use unarmed strikes as a monk. This provides that.

[Lombra]

I would make it an archetype similar to the warlock's patrons: each level of archetype progression grants you the option to increase your effectiveness with your "signature weapons": think of fiend, archfey and great old one as sword, glaive and bow.

Choosing either way should at least grant the corrisponding fighting style from the fighter class.

The auto-critical is too strong: make it give advantage to your attack rolls for this turn, the ki point must be expended before the attack action.

Also superior flurry is both incoherent and overpowered, if monks should get this, it would be an open-hand technique, but 5 attacks per round is just too good. Instead you may replace the unarmed strikes of the flurry with sword attacks 1/short rest. Nah, sounds underwhelming, but I think something along these lines would suite the class better.

Edit: my bad, the 3rd ability already allows it for free. It' shockingly powerful, but if you want to keep it, I would then make the 17th ability a utility one, like: "you can cut through stone and wood with no effort with your sword" might even consider a +5 to hit 1/short rest simulating the character slicing trough the scales/armor of the enemies.

Damn this thing is OP.

[RulesJD]

How is it substantially more powerful. It does in general 1 dmg die of increased dmg, but gives up a lot of utility and control that the other subclasses have. I wasnt sure about deadly focus, but you are giving up essentially 2 attacks from flurry to not quite double the damage on an attack and ensure it hits. The always hit was the part I wasnt sure about.



The important part is you can use it with martial arts and flurry. This provides monks with the option to completely move away from unarmed strikes should they choose to. I have seen interest in the concept of allowing flurry and martial arts with monk weapons as to not be forced to use unarmed strikes as a monk. This provides that.

You know that you can use a Quarterstaff for your main attack (d8) and then use your unarmed strikes (d4/6) anyways right?

Or are you intending for the monk to be able to use the Longsword for all attacks, including the unarmed strikes (so they would become d8)?

[Lombra]

For a monk to be able to use weapons instead of unarmed strikes would make it too powerful: it should be the level 17 ability, and still it's pretty darn strong: 4 attacks with a vorpal sword AND all the monk's abilities? Might be design-breaking, or not, it's a capstone anyways.

[Specter]

Agreed on using bonus for advantage. Perhaps on next turn's attacks, a la soul calibur. Level 3's ability seems lackluster for me, maybe add +1AC with sword and no armor too.

[RulesJD]

Here is my idea for quick evasive light armored swordmaster.
Let me know what you think.

Swordmaster monk archetype:
3: Swordmaster - You gain profociency with the longsword and it is counted as a monk weapon. In addtion you may use monk abilities restricted to unarmed strikes with it so long as you use it one-handed. At level 11 you may use the longsword two-handed as a versatile weapon and still apply unarmed strike abilities to it. At level 17 you gain proficiency with the greatsword as well and may use monk abilities restricted to unarmed strikes with it.
6: Uncanny strike - When you are attacked by an enemy within 5ft you may spend 1 ki as a reaction to attack the enemy first. Your attack is resolved before the enemie's and if it prevents the opponent from attacking you then their attack is nullified.
11: Deadly focus - You may spend one ki to enter a state of focus as a bonus action. Your next attack with a monk weapon made before the end of your turn is automatically treated as a critical hit.
17: Greater flurry - When using flurry of blows you may attack 3 times as a bonus action instead of twice. 1/short rest.

So, Uncanny Strike is literally a better version of the Sentinel feat, which isn't balanced. This is especially true on a Monk when you can combine it with Stunning Strike to almost certainly shut down an enemy without the need for investing an ASI.

Deadly Focus is way, way too overpowered. You severely underestimate how much you can front load damage to the point where an auto-crit grossly outshines the extra damage you could get from a Flurry. Monk multi-classed with Rogue (Sneak) or Paladin (Smite) = completely unbalanced combinations.

Greater Flurry isn't as overpowered, considering it's only once so the max you could do is an extra bit from Hex/Hunter's Mark/Divine Favor. This is the most balanced suggestion.

[Grod_The_Giant]

To clarify: when you say "you may use monk abilities restricted to unarmed strikes with it," does this mean things like Stunning Strike and Ki Empowered Strikes, or are you allowing bonus-action attacks with the sword? If the former, that seems fairly stanard. If the latter... well, let's look at it. At 3rd level it's an average of +2-+4 damage a round, which is substantial. At 5th level this falls to +1 to +2, which remains fairly consistent throughout the rest of the progressions. That's... actually not that terrible. In absolute numbers it's a small boost; comparatively, it's about on par with a level of Rogue for Sneak Attack with a dagger (+3.5 dpr). I don't think a d6 of sneak attack would be an overpowered ability, so I don't think Swordmaster is either. If you're concerned,
You could bump the "bonus action attacks" to 6th
You could require a short sword at first
You could simply note that the bonus action attacks still only deal your martial arts bonus die due to their speed and unconventional nature.

Uncanny Strike is probably too strong-- you're essentially giving one additional attack every round. Instead, how 'bout something along the lines of Defensive Duelist (roll a d8+Dex and reduce incoming damage by that much) or Uncanny Dodge (gain resistance to one attack)?

Deadly Focus might be a bit much. Crits are terrible in 5e unless you have a large source of bonus damage like Sneak Attack, but auto-hitting is probably too much for one ki-- and something like Monk 11/Rogue 9 would be nasty (can you say "2d10+10+10d6 every turn?"). At the same time bonus-action Advantage is pretty crappy for an 11th level feature. How 'bout a +10 to your next attack, War Cleric style? As you point out, Monks have a lot of competition for their bonus action, and at the very least they're leaving another d10+5 damage on the table to use this. That's better than Advantage, but not as open to abuse as a crit.

Greater Flurry is fine for 17th level. +13 damage (2d6+5) once/short rest is nothing. At the same time, it is boring.

...which, ultimately, might be the biggest problem with this archetype: it's boring. You get to swing a sword lots and lots. Yay. You might as well be a Fighter. Where are the cool kung-fu sword techniques? Where are the mystical sword moves learned from ancient scrolls and forgotten gods? For a SwordMonk, I'd like to see something like the Battlemaster's Maneuvers, but Ki-fueled and more openly supernatural. Chop through solid steel, shoot energy beams from your sword, cut spells out of the air...

[uraniumrooster]

...which, ultimately, might be the biggest problem with this archetype: it's boring. You get to swing a sword lots and lots. Yay. You might as well be a Fighter.

This was my thinking as well. It's a striker monk archetype that gets lots of attacks and an auto-crit feature, but most of it is fairly passive. It's strong, getting a significant early-game DPR boost over other monk traditions, but it doesn't really actively do anything. It's like a Champion archetype for Monks.

[MrStabby]

Here is my idea for quick evasive light armored swordmaster.
Let me know what you think.

Swordmaster monk archetype:
3: Swordmaster - You gain profociency with the longsword and it is counted as a monk weapon. In addtion you may use monk abilities restricted to unarmed strikes with it so long as you use it one-handed. At level 11 you may use the longsword two-handed as a versatile weapon and still apply unarmed strike abilities to it. At level 17 you gain proficiency with the greatsword as well and may use monk abilities restricted to unarmed strikes with it.

At 3rd level you get a modest damage boost. In exchange for some ok but situational abilities from the other archetypes. Its good but not game breaking. On the other hand using swords as two handed weapons open up great weapon mastery. Making th monk the best controller AND the best damage dealer in the game seems... excessive?



6: Uncanny strike - When you are attacked by an enemy within 5ft you may spend 1 ki as a reaction to attack the enemy first. Your attack is resolved before the enemie's and if it prevents the opponent from attacking you then their attack is nullified.



11: Deadly focus - You may spend one ki to enter a state of focus as a bonus action. Your next attack with a monk weapon made before the end of your turn is automatically treated as a critical hit.

So a similar setup to polearm master and sentinel combination? Take a great controller and make it better at that? Doesnt seem balanced. This would be good anyway but getting the best bit of two feats worth of abilities as a single class ability seems very good.



17: Greater flurry - When using flurry of blows you may attack 3 times as a bonus action instead of twice. 1/short rest.
Ok its good but at once per short rest it is probably OK.

It kind of looks very strong, but not too distorting before level 11. At level 11 it just goes nuts.

[Foxhound438]

...which, ultimately, might be the biggest problem with this archetype: it's boring.

I'd have to agree with this. There's nothing that really draws me to it besides using a big sword, but that's what I build paladins for.

Moreover, the 3rd level scaling at the higher levels means the archetype you propose gets two more abilities than it should.

Auto-crit for a bonus action opens up some nasty combos, as others have mentioned, and of course the first-strike-retaliation is absolutely broken. It's basically a strictly better version of the sun monk's capstone.

[clash]

So from what I am seeing it is the level 6 and level 11 abilities that are overpowered and the class is kinda boring. If I switched those two out for cooler utility type abilities how would that look? Alternatively would the level 6 ability be broken if it replaced the level 17 ability?

[Grod_The_Giant]

On the other hand using swords as two handed weapons open up great weapon mastery. Making th monk the best controller AND the best damage dealer in the game seems... excessive.
Not until 17, thankfully, though you're right: greatswords should never be an option for exactly that reason. You could upgrade the damage die instead, to keep the progression intact.

(it probably should, incidentally, be shortswords at 3, 1-handed longswords at 5, two-handed longswords at 11, and damage-boosted longswords at 17- that leaves you at +1 damage die throughout-- it's not really new abilities, Foxhound438, so much as scaling with level)


So from what I am seeing it is the level 6 and level 11 abilities that are overpowered and the class is kinda boring. If I switched those two out for cooler utility type abilities how would that look? Alternatively would the level 6 ability be broken if it replaced the level 17 ability?
Both would be improvements, I think, though we'd have to see the finished product to be sure. I suggest adding something flavorful at 3rd, though--you do have room, I think. Especially if you make "bonus action attacks with your sword" a 6th level ability, which means it's initially a pretty power-neutral option.

[Joe the Rat]

I've been playing around with an open choice weapon tradition (as in pick one). The way I put it is that your weapon of choice is treated as a monk weapon, but you may only Dexterity for the hit/damage if it is used one-handed. That lets you add regular MA unarmed strikes and flurries with unarmed damage while Strength-beating with a greatsword.

I'm still debating if 1d10 Dex melee is too big at early levels, or should be allowed. Might make a good level 6 or 11 feature.

Auto crit is too much. Either Advantage on attack, or crit if it hits. You can always increase in costs. I do like that this requires a bonus action - you cannot flurry.

Allowing sword strikes in the flurry would be a good feature. Additional flurry strikes is not.

Other things to consider:
- Use deflect missiles against melee attacks. Requiring a different target for redirect might be a balancer (hit your buddy). Might be a good feature for 6. Definitely a potential replacement for polearm.
-weapon bond. You can't be disarmed unwillingly, counts as magical (if not already a feature of monk weapons).
-turning ki into damage dice: monk smite! Cost may need tweaking.
-spend ki to bypass resistance (1), immunity (2), or change your strike to force damage (?). Cut the uncuttable.
-wind scar technique. Either a ranged slash, or an area effect attack.
-battle master maneuvers.

[clash]

Okay I have moved the level 3 ability to level 6 and changed it to give the slight damage boost without giving additional weapons or access to gwm. I gave the archetype a more flavorful ability at level 3 and a strictly utility ability at level 11 and I have moved uncanny strike to level 17.

A few questions. Does this feel more flavorful and balanced? And should the level 3 ability cost 1 ki or 2? I wasn't sure but I put it at 1 ki because getting 2 attacks with advantage is strictly worse then 4 attacks (flurry of blows) but I don't know if its worse enough to give the added defensive bonus as well for the same cost. Or should I tweak it and then charge either 1 or 2 ki? Is uncanny strike still too good for a level 17 ability? Let me know. The feedback has been great, thanks.

[mgshamster]

Speed Mirage - It's a weaker version of Mirror Image in that it has fewer images and only lasts one round; however, it has an AC and grants advantage. I think the fact that it had AC balances out the fewer images and length. Advantage on attacks just makes it even stronger.

It should be at least 2 Ki points. If you want to keep it as 1 ki point, drop both the AC and advantage, leaving it with a flat 50% miss chance for one round.

Heck, that advantage is pretty powerful by itself. I might even make it 2 ki points just for that alone. Then +1 or 2 ki points for everything else added on to it.

[clash]

Speed Mirage - It's a weaker version of Mirror Image in that it has fewer images and only lasts one round; however, it has an AC and grants advantage. I think the fact that it had AC balances out the fewer images and length. Advantage on attacks just makes it even stronger.

Mirror image duplicates have ac as well. So with this you get only one image and it only lasts one round. Strictly worse defensive benefit than mirror image but has advantage.


Heck, that advantage is pretty powerful by itself. I might even make it 2 ki points just for that alone. Then +1 or 2 ki points for everything else added on to it.

Advantage isnt even worth 1 ki by itself. The extra two attacks from flurry is strictly better than advantage on two existing attacks and flurry only costs 1 ki. But I could definitively see 2 ki for the ability with the defensive bonus. I think it may need tweaking though. It might be too powerful for 1 ki, but for 2 ki I don't know if I would ever choose this over flurry of blows. Defensively it only gives 50% chance of one attack that might not have even hit you, missing you instead. How would 2 ki be for 2 duplicates + advantage for 1 round? That gives 1 attack 66% chance of missing you when it might have hit you and a second attack 50% chance of missing when it might have hit.

[mgshamster]

Mirror image duplicates have ac as well. So with this you get only one image and it only lasts one round. Strictly worse defensive benefit than mirror image but has advantage.

So it does. My apologies.



Advantage isnt even worth 1 ki by itself. The extra two attacks from flurry is strictly better than advantage on two existing attacks and flurry only costs 1 ki. But I could definitively see 2 ki for the ability with the defensive bonus. I think it may need tweaking though. It might be too powerful for 1 ki, but for 2 ki I don't know if I would ever choose this over flurry of blows. Defensively it only gives 50% chance of one attack that might not have even hit you, missing you instead. How would 2 ki be for 2 duplicates + advantage for 1 round? That gives 1 attack 66% chance of missing you when it might have hit you and a second attack 50% chance of missing when it might have hit.

I like this idea.

[clash]

Alright I have update speed mirage to that. Other than speed mirage any thoughts on the other abilities or the revised archetype as a whole?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Alright I have update speed mirage to that. Other than speed mirage any thoughts on the other abilities or the revised archetype as a whole?
You have, I think, lost the focus somewhat. I'd switch Blade's Edge and Speed Mirage, which should help with what still looks like a rather powerful ability (It's the one-Ki Dodge only better, and Advantage on attacks). I still like the idea of adding longswords as monk weapons, though probably with some sort of restriction (as mentioned earlier-- how 'bout "any slashing weapon with a damage die no more than one size larger than your martial arts damage die?"). But either way, "bonus action attacks with a sword" is the archetype's main schtick, so it should come at 3. In its current form, it's weak enough that you could add a little something extra-- maybe you can use the throw-arrow-back bit of Deflect Arrows even if your hands are full of sword, or (pay 1 ki?) to use it against a melee (weapon?) attack?

[clash]

You have, I think, lost the focus somewhat. I'd switch Blade's Edge and Speed Mirage, which should help with what still looks like a rather powerful ability (It's the one-Ki Dodge only better, and Advantage on attacks). I still like the idea of adding longswords as monk weapons, though probably with some sort of restriction (as mentioned earlier-- how 'bout "any slashing weapon with a damage die no more than one size larger than your martial arts damage die?"). But either way, "bonus action attacks with a sword" is the archetype's main schtick, so it should come at 3.

I debated doing it that way because it really is the core of the archetype, but I dont want the first ability of the class to be too boring, but I think you may be right about switching them. Adding longsword seemed redundant when you can just use an improved damage shortsword.


In its current form, it's weak enough that you could add a little something extra-- maybe you can use the throw-arrow-back bit of Deflect Arrows even if your hands are full of sword, or (pay 1 ki?) to use it against a melee (weapon?) attack?

You think this archetype is now slightly weaker than the other monk archetypes? I could definitely add a little bit of power if that's the case. Which level do you feel the extra power should come in in at?

[Grod_The_Giant]

I debated doing it that way because it really is the core of the archetype, but I dont want the first ability of the class to be too boring, but I think you may be right about switching them. Adding longsword seemed redundant when you can just use an improved damage shortsword.



You think this archetype is now slightly weaker than the other monk archetypes? I could definitely add a little bit of power if that's the case. Which level do you feel the extra power should come in in at?
I think you should switch them, and add something extra to level 3. Not Speed Mirage, that's too good for so low a level, but something for sure.

[gfishfunk]

The first class benefit is fine if it only works until the beginning of your next turn. That makes it very limiting and expensive to renew.

[clash]

I think you should switch them, and add something extra to level 3. Not Speed Mirage, that's too good for so low a level, but something for sure.

You may be right. I dont think Speed mirage is too good for that level, but Blade's edge really is the defining feature. I think I would switch them if I could come up with an interesting ribbon ability for level 3 as well. Something cool but only very situationally useful. Something like Weapon bond, but without stepping on the fighters toes.

[uraniumrooster]

I like the idea of a Weaponmaster/Kensai inspired Monk tradition, but one of the big problems I see with this is that the core mechanics are Sword Flurries OR auto-crit, both requiring a Bonus Action. Instead of having synergy between your features, you have competition. Plus, the auto-crit isn't that powerful on a pure Monk build, so it feels more like multi-class bait.

Instead, you might want to borrow form the Champion and add a passive improved crit range with their weapon of choice. Then, give the archetype a ki-powered ability that allows it to roll attacks at advantage with their weapon of choice.

The idea would be to make your Swordmaster Monk into a crit-fishing DPR class, along the lines of a Weaponmaster or Kensai, by building in better synergy between your core features - improved crit range with your weapon of choice, and the ability to spam lots of weapon attacks at advantage for a fairly high chance of getting at least one crit each round.

As a later-level or capstone ability, maybe add a supernatural-type effect that triggers when the monk scores a critical hit, to take further advantage of its main shtick and allow your crits to do something cool and interesting other than just more damage.

As a pure monk, I don't think it would be overpowered, as you'd be sacrificing the control and supernatural/spell-like abilities the other archetypes get in favor of just dishing out more straight damage. It might run into balance issues with multi-classing, though, especially with any classes that are able to add extra damage dice to their weapon attacks, but I think it could be done in a way to minimize that (limiting all the abilities to only work with a Longsword would prevent Sneak Attack/GWM shenanigans).

The only other problem I see is that it potentially risks making the Monk better at Fightering than Fighters. Basically they can do everything a Fighter can do, plus they get all the Monk's base-class goodies. You'd probably need to build in some limitations to keep them distinct from Fighters - class abilities only function with one specific weapon, don't work if you're wearing armor, require ki points to function, etc.

[clash]

I think you should switch them, and add something extra to level 3.

What about changing blade's edge to this and switching it to level 3:

Sword of the soul
As an action you may materialize any monk weapon out of pure energy. The weapon does force damage and can be used with any monk ability restricted to unarmed strikes. Additionally when using this weapon to attack your martial arts damage die increases by one die size. The weapon stays materialized until you dismiss it or it moves more than 5ft from you. You may draw or sheathe it as normal and may have up to two such weapons at one time.

It avoids magic weapon shenanigans but gives you the least most resisted damage type as a tradeoff. And it is distinctively different from warlock pact weapon (proficiency in any weapon) and fighter weapon bond (summon as bonus action and cant be disarmed).

[djreynolds]

Here is my idea for quick evasive light armored swordmaster.
Let me know what you think.

Swordmaster monk
3: Speed mirage - You dance around the battlefield with such speed and finesse that you can appear to be in two places at once. You can spend 2 ki as a bonus action to create two illusory duplicates of yourself. You make attacks with advantage while they exist. Additionally each time a creature targets you with an attack while they exist, roll a d20 to determine whether the attack instead targets one of your duplicates. With two duplicates, you must roll an 8 or higher. With one duplicate, you must roll an 11 or higher. The duplicates lasts until the start of your next turn or until it is hit with an attack. The duplicates have an ac of 10 + your dex modifier. A creature is unaffected by this effect if it can’t see, if it relies on senses other than sight, such as blindsight, or if it can perceive illusions as false, as with truesight.
6: Blade's edge - You may use monk abilities restricted to unarmed strikes with any slashing or piercing monk weapon. Additionally, when fighting with a slashing or piercing monk weapon you may increase the martial arts damage die by one die size.
11: Steel splitting stone - You have enhanced your blade techniques to the point where you can cleave through even stone as easily as air. While wielding any slashing or piercing monk weapon you can cut through non-magical wood, earth or stone. As a single action you can make a cut up to up to 1 ft deep and 6ft long with this ability.
17: Uncanny strike - When you are attacked by an enemy within 5ft you may spend 1 ki as a reaction to attack the enemy first. Your attack is resolved before the enemy's and if it prevents the opponent from attacking you then their attack is nullified.

Edited to take into account feedback.

I dig it, it needs some editing to make it unique so as not to encroach on other classes, but it is cool