Is this an Elder Evil? Mark II.

[Metahuman1]

D&D 3.5 for the system.



http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?493670-Killing-A-God-Elder-Evil-Demon-Prince-Arch-Devil-(3-5-D-amp-D-)-HELP!

The thread link is were this started. Since it's been awhile, consider this an update.


So, since that thread stopped getting posts, we've had an update in that game with weird and wrong goings on happening in the world.

They are as follows.

An increase of Undead, magic fluctuating on and off, a spreading of the spell scarring plague, and the most current affect is a hyper fecundity occurring in plants and animals.

So, with that information in mind, does this just sound like Typical Orcus stuff, or does this fit the profile for an Elder Evil and which one if so? Or failing that, is this perhaps one of the other big Demon Princes or Arch Devils calling card/MO?

[HappyElf]

Orcus does undead stuff, but the rest doesn't really have much to do with him, especially not increased fecundity.

That does sound like the signs from elder evils, especially if they're happening worldwide, but if it's an elder Evil, then either it's a homebrew one or there's multiple ones- that's more then one elder evil sign.
So either your DM has at least three elder evils (based on the signs, I'd say Atropus, Ragnorra, and maybe Pandorym) activating at once or he's made a home-brew super-elder evil with three signs.

Alternately, your DM might have given Demon Lords/ Archdevils/etc signs, but again the radically different effects imply either multiple ones or homebrew (unless there's a very obscure death/fecundity/anti-magic demon I don't know about).

[Metahuman1]

Alright. If that's the case, I need to start making plans for how to kill them/banish them/seal them/ext. How do I go about doing that?

[HappyElf]

In terms of combat, all elder evils have high to very high stats in all areas, are protected by a powerful nondetection spell, all are immune to most instant-win effects (polymorph, mind control, energy/ability drain and damage. Although not death effects) and can see through all illusions and concealment

If I'm right about who it is (I'll put in spoilers in case anyone playing an elder evils campaign is reading)


If there are reports of a second moon/giant black-rock planet approaching the setting, especially if it looks like a human head and undead get more common as it gets closer, you're almost certainly up against Atropus.

Atropus (CR 23) is a super-undead. His main thing is giving negative levels, so you'll want as much protection against those as possible (if you don't have protection against negative energy, you take five negative levels by being within 30ft of him, no save). Mostly a melee fighter, has a few ranged attacks but they're not what he's best at. If he hits you you take con drain, negative levels and a risk of instant death on a critical. You'll need epic good weapons to pierce his DR. If your DM is playing even remotely tactically he'll also be surrounded by undead, all of whom get fast healing and turn resistance by being near him. Anyone he kills becomes a powerful undead

His sign means anyone who dies becomes a zombie automatically- likely just an annoyance if you're at a level where you can fight him, but worth looking out for

Basically, get as many anti-undead effects at as high a level as you can, boost your AC and mobility as high as possible to stay out of range of his strikes, and protect yourself from negative levels in as many ways as you can.

Luckily there's no complex ritual to banish him- kill the aspect and you'll make him go away.




A red extra-planar comet approaching the setting, or having recently hit, are the omens of Ragnorra

Ragnorra (CR 19) has two forms. In her first (a large, evershifting worm thing), she's basically just a generic big strong aberration, you need epic weapons to get past the DR. Only exceptions- she is immune to death attacks. she can get stronger if you cast spells on her, so don't use direct magic except as a last resort. She can create various effects around her, mostly damage and monster summoning. Anything that dies near her becomes an aberration under her control.
In her second form (a huge dome of fibres), she's completely invulnerable to everything, and can turn people directly (albeit slowly) into aberrations under her control. The only way to kill her is to destroy her connection to this world-a literal giant thread of metal and crystal, in canon- which should be found somewhere in the dome. It'll have aberration guards and the same DR as Ragnorra herself. Also, it explodes, so break it from range.

In first form, hit as hard as you can until one of you falls down. In second form, run and find the cord.

Notably, she affects all undead around her with a powerful turn effect, so if your DM is mean enough to have you fight all three at once push her
towards Atropus- it won't affect him but it'll thin out his minions.

It's a little unclear if killing the first form banishes her or if you need to cut the chord- try both? Cutting the chord also turns any of her aberrations back to normal

Her sign boosts healing, but causes those who use it to slowly turn into aberrations.




Pandorym doesn't quite fit, but he's the only canon elder evil whose sign stops magic working. His sign stops conjuration spells beside healing working, and gives a strong penalty to divine magic. It sounds like your DM may have expanded this sign to affect other magic- do some trial and error to see what works.

There aren't any really obvious indications of Pandorym- the gods telling you an evil power is close to escaping is the main one, but that's too generic to really be helpful

Pandorym (CR 25) is an incorporeal psionic evil outsider, appearing as a cloud of purple/black mist. You need mind blank, he has endless dominate monsters that don't cost an action and a host of other telepathic powers to boot. If you aren't affected by those, he's mostly got various energy spells, so get as much energy resistance as possible. You need good and epic to get past DR (and a way to hit incorporeal stuff). Don't cast psionic powers or divine spells within 90 feet of him- psions double the point cost of powers, divine casters take negative levels, both heal him. It can create corporeal limbs to move stuff- destroying them does minor damage. Can also summon a lot of incorporeal undead, so prepare for that. Also don't use mind-effecting stuff on him- you'll likely be feebleminded

If you're protected from mind-effecting powers, the battles comparatively easy, just a standard powerful outsider with a ton of psionic abilities. Yay.

If your DM is using the canon adventure, he's already imprisoned and you need to stop him being released, so find who's doing that and stab them.


Note these are dependent on the elder evil canon campaign paths- depending on how much your DM homebrews, a lot of things (especially how to banish/reimprison the elder evils) may be different. Also, the signs get stronger as the campaign progresses, I just used the most powerful versions as that's what they'll likely be at when you fight the elder evil itself.

(also if it is a homebrewed one this is completely useless. Sorry.)

[Metahuman1]

Alright. So. Would being a Necropolitan effect this? (My character is a Necropolitan.) If so, can you give me a break down? Apart from that, what about Soul Fire? Useful at all?

Also, does he have any special protection from force damage? (Party has a ranger that uses Hank's energy Bow, but won't Power Attack with it for reasons, and a Conjuration Wizard/Warblade/Swiftblade Gish who's decided she likes the Orb of line of attack spells, and my Sorcerer/Mage of the Arcane Order going into red Wizard who's quite fond of throwing around tags of explosive runes in combat for reliable damage. )

Another thing, regarding his Damage Reduction: Would the Foe hammer/Mountain hammer maneuver lines/Stone Dragon Tactical feat from Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords, allow bypassing the DR by RAW? Or is he a special snowflake who's immune to that/Are Elder Evils on the whole immune to that?

Lastly: That auto kill on a crit ability. If I have Heavy Fortification or Undead type to give me immunity to extra damage from crits, would that protect me from that ability? Or Soul Fire/Undead type to give me immunity too Death Effects? Or if neither works on it's own, would having both do the trick?


Ya know, if he's pulling one of them out, I kinda hope it's this one.

Questions then.

Her DR: Again, can mountain Hammer/Foe Hammer Maneuver line, the Stone Dragon Tactical feat, or force energy, get past this? And does she have any special protection from force energy damage apart form that clause about spells?

It sounds like it's going to be particularly important to know that for cutting her thread in particular, and for keeping the party ranger in the fight in general.



Also, how slowly is slowly for turning people into aberrations?


This one seems the least likely since the DM banned Psionics and hasn't been using them against us. But just in case.


So, Ghost shroud/ghost Touch/ should get us past the Incorporeal problem, right?

Same questions on how he holds up against Force and on if the other things I've listed can get past his DR as the other two.

As for Dominate/Telepathic Powers, do we need full Mind Blank, or would lot's of Protection From Evil spells cut it for stopping his mind stuff?

As for the cleric casting spells, does that include if the Cleric casts the spells outside of that range on himself or the party (Buff spells.) and had them active when he entered that 90ft range? Or not?


And he might be home brewing. Or he might be using something else. He keeps insisting we don't know for sure, just that we've got the idea that there's some other darker power in play that's going release Orcus, who's fluff he's already changed. But I'll start making preparation's for none elder evils after I'm sure I know how to take care of the one's that might be manifesting.

[HappyElf]

If I recall correctly, Necropoitans are true undead? In which case, yay! You are not only immune to the negative levels but gain the bonuses to undead by bearing near it! They're not huge (+5 to turn resistance and fast healing 5) but hey. While he doesn't have any ability to control undead by RAW, it seems something plausible to homebrew in, so maybe worth preparing for just in case.

No special resistance or vulnerability to force

The negative levels are a negative energy effect, so should be stopped by soulfire

By RAW, no reason why those maneuvers/feats wouldn't work, I don't think.

It's a little unclear what the death effect actually is- the presumed implication is a negative energy effect, but it's never explicitly stated. I'd get both just so you're safe however the DM rules it.




No resistance or vulnerability to force (although it won't break the DR)

No clear reason why the maneuvers/feats wouldn't work

She fires bolts of positive energy- if you are hit and fail a DC 36 fort save, two of your hit-dice are "corrupted". This continues each round until either you make the save or all your hit dice are corrupted, when you become an aberration (corruption otherwise has no mechanical events)






Protection from evil will protect against direct mind control, so would be helpful. However, Pandorym also has a lot of direct mental attacks, mind reading and other such things, so protection from evil won't be a full defence.

Ghost touch should hurt him, and the feats/maneuvers should work if you can touch him. No resistance or vulnerability to force (although it will get past the incorporeality.)

Ok, i misread the cleric thing- it can affect anyone who casts divine spells within that radius even if they don't cast any magic. It can only affect one person at a time but keep divine casters away from it. Sorry. Although those affected by buffs are fine.

[Metahuman1]

Alright, good deal then. Only question on this front. Any ideas on how to make an undead immune to being controlled or unmade/un-undeaded (is that even a word?).

Wait. Why would force damage be subjected to Damage Reduction? It's energy damage. Thats one of the big things with Hanks Bow, it get's you around DR effectively and reliably, which is a big deal to archer builds.

As for those corruption bolts, is there a way to slow down/become immune to the process? The DM is prone to doing things to drag out fights longer then they should be cause he doesn't think short fights can be epic and that there anti climatic, so theres decent odds he'll drag the final boss fight out and that means this could be a problem.

Addendum: Anyway to get them to not hurt me since I'm a Necropolitant and Positive Energy is as bad for me as Negative energy is for a more conventional PC?

I see. Ok, then, yeah, got to have Mind Blank. (Thought: Would Iron Heart Surge be a workable get out of being hosed card for this stuff?)

Oh. Oh wow. Ok. Glad that got clarified ahead of time. He's gonna be so pissed though. He's mostly a Melee Cleric. Well, might not end up with this one like I said, Psionics, not a thing for this game thus far.



So, those things should help the elder evil part of the problem.

The other things it might be are one or more of the None Orcus Demon Princes or one or more of the Arch Devils. Any idea if any of them fit the descriptions for odd things happening in there MO's, and which ones? And if so, how one goes about bringing them/sealing them/killing them?

[khadgar567]

probably limited planar suppression one of the elder evil traits so your dm uses to put fake orcus clues as elder evil mimicking orcus stuff to force you to chase your tails so either 4th elder evil is on plate or he homebrew one hell of a elder evil ( my 2 cents on homebrewed super elder)