View Full Version : The Riddle of Vecna's Chosen
Not long ago I started up a discussion about the economic value of fingernail clippings, how this relates to ninth level spells, and thus the information gathering war native to high level, high OP wizard play. One really cannot even adequately talk about the latter before addressing the former obviously. Naturally, inevitably even, this evolving into talking about my step by step plan to protect a high level wizard in the information wars pasted below.
Ah but see I already had a plan for this.
To copy paste myself:
This plan will not result in your enemies getting a corpse, but it will result in them getting a useless shell as compared to literally any other full caster.
Step 1: Have vecna-blooded template, use any of a number of methods to lose and regain it on a daily basis. This is important because whenever the template is gained all knowledge of you is wiped from history and the memory of everyone that isn't you. This should make it effectively impossible to get ice assassin knowledge from anyone but you, and similarly immune to divination as a bonus.
Step 2: Have both spontaneous divination and versatile spellcaster. Never have to prepare spells again.
Step 3: Either go eidetic to never need a spellbook or protect the best one you can make to the fullest extent of your capabilities. I would suggest making your spellbook a sentient, vecna blooded, animated magic item and store it shrunken in your bloodstream when not in use. Make it an aleax if you can. Learn all wizard spells and as many from other classes as you can.
Step 4: Use craft contingent spell and ice assassin together with your crafting XP farm method of choice to craft the most deadly arsenal of spells you can. It will also be key to the final step.
Step 5: Mind rape self into forgetting all knowledge of spells, contingent spells, and plans beyond general directives. Keep contingent miracles to restore the knowledge in the event of a fight, or other obstacle to your longterm goals.
The result? No one knows about you to oppose you. Even if they do you can't be divinationed at all. Even if they find a way to read your prepared spells list it's useless because you don't have one. They can't read your spellbook because it either doesn't exist or is as untouchable as a thing can be. You can do virtually everything spontaneously and anything commonly good or worthwhile hundreds of thousands of times per turn.
Most importantly? An ice assassin of you knows NOTHING. It doesn't know any spells. It has no spellbook. It doesn't have your contingencies. It knows absolutely nothing about you save the most general of knowledge about your goals. All told literally any other high level mage in existence is now a more productive target for ice assassin unless someone actually manages the corpse trick.
End plan.
You see world? I'm brilliant. I'm also mad as a hatter.
With even greater inevitability this lead to discussion of the effects of information gathering psionics to initiate a time war on my ancestors. I defended by sending an army of undetectable ice assassins back in time to defend said ancestors. I mention this not to brag, but to set the context for the sheer level of insanity you've waded into and the fact that any conceivable solution is permitted so long as it works by RAW. There was one final question raised about the viability of metafaculty for this scenario. I had a counter. Your mission, should you choose to accept it is to solve the riddle of what it is.
I have a counter of information gathering that involves neither psionics of any sort or divinations. It also uses tools I've already brought up that aren't even epic. Some people find this use rules shaky due to just how ungodly powerful it is but it isn't strictly against the rules. Can any of you brilliant people guess what it is given these clues? Go on. Solve the riddle of Vecna's chosen.
Also no ice assassin. Too obvious. It's much more insidious.
The clues that were already given to people include that the counter is based on finding information, could already be done with tools I mentioned, and one final sentence.
It's a sorry state of affairs when people only respect magic for the power of nine. Masters of the craft understand the true power of zero where most see only parlor tricks.
One Step Two
2016-08-22, 10:02 PM
Someone else mentioned, but did you have a counter to a DC 30 Bardic knowledge check?
Someone else mentioned, but did you have a counter to a DC 30 Bardic knowledge check?
On the hole seems to just be a less powerful and reliable version of what we were already talking about. It doesn't seem to have any strengths over the psionic method and some nasty weaknesses.
SoraWolf7
2016-08-22, 11:27 PM
I haven't seen where the discussion for this idea was before, but I take it erasing your name, but not your TRUENAME, is the biggest loophole I can think of.
I haven't seen where the discussion for this idea was before, but I take it erasing your name, but not your TRUENAME, is the biggest loophole I can think of.
I don't go anywhere near truenaming on the basis that truenamers fall into either horrifically low floor or excessively high optimization requirement just to be a relatively competent caster. If you've found something legitimately worthwhile in it you'll have to explain rather thoroughly because of this fact.
Chronikoce
2016-08-23, 02:11 AM
I'm not familiar with vecna blooded but from your description wouldn't you immediately lose the memory of your own spellbook at the moment that the template was applied?
I'm not familiar with vecna blooded but from your description wouldn't you immediately lose the memory of your own spellbook at the moment that the template was applied?
No. Only people who aren't vecna blooded lose their memories at the time of appliance. You specifically keep your memory of yourself, as does vecna, as do all other vecna blooded people. No one else, including gods, to my knowledge though. Ladies and gentlemen, the reason I consider this template WORTH losing a caster level. It's one of the most powerful effects in the entire game. Easily the most powerful single effect for hiding information. It also makes you immune to divination, and gives you information on anyone who tries to use such on you. This is why all the alternate methods come up. It's not just useless to divine a vecna blooded. It's actively detrimental.
thethird
2016-08-23, 02:50 AM
So the counter to vecna blooded is a vecna blooded using non divination methods to learn from the first vecna blooded?
So the counter to vecna blooded is a vecna blooded using non divination methods to learn from the first vecna blooded?
The even fight to vecna blooded is a vecna blooded using non-divination to learn about the first. After all non-divination tricks to learn aren't barred from anyone. Hell. My method for doing it is literally the point of this riddle.
Extra Anchovies
2016-08-23, 04:26 AM
Step 1: Have vecna-blooded template, use any of a number of methods to lose and regain it on a daily basis. This is important because whenever the template is gained all knowledge of you is wiped from history and the memory of everyone that isn't you. This should make it effectively impossible to get ice assassin knowledge from anyone but you, and similarly immune to divination as a bonus.
Let's check the text on this.
A Vecna-blooded creature gains immunity to all divination spells cast against it or cast to learn information about it.
Wish and Limited Wish can replicate divination spells without being divination spells.
Non-spell divination effects and non-divination information-gathering effects also work, which is a pretty gaping hole in this plan. First thing that comes to mind is the Elemental Weirds' Prescience:
Prescience (Su): At will and as a free action, a weird can duplicate the effect of any of the following divination spells: analyze dweomer, clairaudience/clairvoyance, contact other plane, detect thoughts, discern location, find the path, foresight, greater scrying, legend lore, locate creature, locate object, tongues, true seeing, vision. Caster level 18th; save DC 16 + spell level.Note that it's not just divination SLAs; it's a (Su) ability that says it duplicates the effects of any of the spells. "Is a divination spell" is a quality of all of those spells, but it is not an effect of one of those spells, so Prescience divination effects are not spells and bypass Cloak of Mystery just fine. I'd bet there's a few non-divination effects floating around in the back corners of DragMag or the more obscure setting splats that could reveal information about you, but I don't know how to search for that sort of thing.
Some of the more open-ended divinations (e.g. legend lore) could reveal information about you without being "cast against [you]" or "cast to learn information about [you]", if the direct subject of the divination has a tangential connection to you. If you read "cast to learn information about [you]" as only applying to divinations where the subject of the spell is selected as part of casting (e.g. scrying, augury), even Contact Other Plane would get through, because it may be used to learn information about you, but it is not cast to do so.
Last but not least, Cloak of Mystery is (Su), and can thus be suppressed by antimagic, dead magic, etc, but that's enough of an edge case to be only worth mentioning for completeness's sake.
Step 2: Have both spontaneous divination and versatile spellcaster. Never have to prepare spells again.
Depends on how you reconcile the fully spontaneous spellcasting assumed by Versatile Spellcaster with the wizard's prepared casting. I read it as being able to use two nth-level slots to prepare an (n+1)th level spell, which would still require preparing non-divination spells.
Step 5: Mind rape self into forgetting all knowledge of spells, contingent spells, and plans beyond general directives. Keep contingent miracles to restore the knowledge in the event of a fight, or other obstacle to your longterm goals.
I'm sorry, what? Your ultimate invincibility trick is to forget that you are a wizard? I'm pretty sure that defeats the point of being a wizard in the first place.
The result? No one knows about you to oppose you. Even if they do you can't be divinationed at all. Even if they find a way to read your prepared spells list it's useless because you don't have one. They can't read your spellbook because it either doesn't exist or is as untouchable as a thing can be.
And you, having forgotten that you're able to cast spells, can't really do much to oppose anyone else. Sure, if you end up in a dire situation, the contingencies will restore your powers, but you don't know that. As far as you know, you're just some random vagrant with the poor fortune of looking like Voldemort.
You can do virtually everything spontaneously and anything commonly good or worthwhile hundreds of thousands of times per turn.
Care to explain how you can do this, given that you don't have access to your spells?
Most importantly? An ice assassin of you knows NOTHING. It doesn't know any spells. It has no spellbook. It doesn't have your contingencies. It knows absolutely nothing about you save the most general of knowledge about your goals. All told literally any other high level mage in existence is now a more productive target for ice assassin unless someone actually manages the corpse trick.
I mean, the corpse trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21082802&postcount=82) works. It has a single weak point in that it's dependent on being able to always have the KbtA item on your person, but that's not a huge vulnerability given how easy it is for a high-level wizard to be essentially untouchable.
I have a counter of information gathering that involves neither psionics of any sort or divinations. It also uses tools I've already brought up that aren't even epic. Some people find this use rules shaky due to just how ungodly powerful it is but it isn't strictly against the rules. Can any of you brilliant people guess what it is given these clues? Go on. Solve the riddle of Vecna's chosen.
If you're confident that this trick works, why not share it openly? Then we can have an engaging discussion about it and related topics, instead of just playing Twenty Questions.
You specifically keep your memory of yourself, as does vecna, as do all other vecna blooded people.
This is incorrect.
Only Vecna and the Vecna-blooded creature retain this knowledge.
"The Vecna-blooded creature" is singular, and in the context of a template description is inarguably referring to only the creature to whom the template is being applied.
Let's check the text on this.
Wish and Limited Wish can replicate divination spells without being divination spells.
Non-spell divination effects and non-divination information-gathering effects also work, which is a pretty gaping hole in this plan. First thing that comes to mind is the Elemental Weirds' Prescience:
Note that it's not just divination SLAs; it's a (Su) ability that says it duplicates the effects of any of the spells. "Is a divination spell" is a quality of all of those spells, but it is not an effect of one of those spells, so Prescience divination effects are not spells and bypass Cloak of Mystery just fine. I'd bet there's a few non-divination effects floating around in the back corners of DragMag or the more obscure setting splats that could reveal information about you, but I don't know how to search for that sort of thing.
Some of the more open-ended divinations (e.g. legend lore) could reveal information about you without being "cast against [you]" or "cast to learn information about [you]", if the direct subject of the divination has a tangential connection to you. If you read "cast to learn information about [you]" as only applying to divinations where the subject of the spell is selected as part of casting (e.g. scrying, augury), even Contact Other Plane would get through, because it may be used to learn information about you, but it is not cast to do so.
Last but not least, Cloak of Mystery is (Su), and can thus be suppressed by antimagic, dead magic, etc, but that's enough of an edge case to be only worth mentioning for completeness's sake.
Depends on how you reconcile the fully spontaneous spellcasting assumed by Versatile Spellcaster with the wizard's prepared casting. I read it as being able to use two nth-level slots to prepare an (n+1)th level spell, which would still require preparing non-divination spells.
I'm sorry, what? Your ultimate invincibility trick is to forget that you are a wizard? I'm pretty sure that defeats the point of being a wizard in the first place.
And you, having forgotten that you're able to cast spells, can't really do much to oppose anyone else. Sure, if you end up in a dire situation, the contingencies will restore your powers, but you don't know that. As far as you know, you're just some random vagrant with the poor fortune of looking like Voldemort.
Care to explain how you can do this, given that you don't have access to your spells?
I mean, the corpse trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21082802&postcount=82) works. It has a single weak point in that it's dependent on being able to always have the KbtA item on your person, but that's not a huge vulnerability given how easy it is for a high-level wizard to be essentially untouchable.
If you're confident that this trick works, why not share it openly? Then we can have an engaging discussion about it and related topics, instead of just playing Twenty Questions.
This is incorrect.
"The Vecna-blooded creature" is singular, and in the context of a template description is inarguably referring to only the creature to whom the template is being applied.
Well lets get right into the thick of this then. First off I was never using vecna blooded for the divination immunity. Right there in the plan that was mentioned as being completely secondary to the memory wipe which was literally the reason to take it to begin with. Even if we completely ignore the shaky territory of duplicated divination spells, that entire section is irrelevant to the actual plan in the grand scheme of things.
Secondly the rules interpretation of versatile spellcaster. Even if we assume spell prep is mandatory you still don't get to learn anything of value about the wizard because he can fill every slot with read magic. Every wizard can prep read magic. Even that one. Especially that one. Read magic also has exactly zero practical application in combat and is thus effectively equivalent to a blank list. Ready to move on again?
First and foremost on the memory trick, and this is important, its purpose is to provide a form of safety from ice assassin that relies on no items, can't be dispelled, and can't be gotten around with any combination of revivals, interrogation of the ice assassin, or even miracles. The ice assassin can't have its mindstate restored because it never knew anything more than it did at creation. For that matter neither does the deity you're partitioning.
Now on to making this workable. Did you forget that the spell that produced this state of affairs was gods damned mindrape? The character ceases to need logical motivations, knowledge of capabilities, or even directives beyond steps on the path to the next intended goal. They're programmed. That's part of the point.
But lets assume for a moment that you're correct and I'm required to offer you some coherent logic the character operates under. That's also easy. Leave knowledge of what a wizard 20 is, his list of prepared read magic, and the knowledge that something immensely helpful but undefined will occur if he is impeded. That's significantly more ground than I need to give considering I write how the mind WORKS from the ground up but whatever.
Why riddle? Did you ever consider for a moment that a thread largely about a vecna related ability used by a character fluffed as his chosen, an ability which you must answer seven riddles to obtain, might, just might, use the concept of a riddle as a thematic game related to the topic at hand?
As for the correction regarding the ability text thank you for making me realize that I actually accidentally nerfed my own cornerstone ability. That was actually constructive. Now would you like to actually participate in the game I spent over an hour devising cryptic clues for, and the better part of a few days of a discussion leading up to? Or perhaps you prefer to continue demeaning the concept I put all this work behind?
Now would you like to actually participate in the game I spent over an hour devising cryptic clues for, and the better part of a few days of a discussion leading up to? Or perhaps you prefer to continue demeaning the concept I put all this work behind?
They are participating in the game. Whether or not the set up is valid is an important discussion for any challenge, otherwise the challenge is pointless.
As for solving the riddle, how are you sending ice assassins back in time to protect your ancestors? You're a wizard aren't you, not a psion? And how do your assassins auto manage to protect your ancestors? Are they infallible?
Also I seem to recall that when I pointed out that a Vecna-blooded would have a hard time introducing itself to its former party members in another thread, you insisted they would be able to know of you by your absence, that they would remember a sequence of events they 3 of them did that would have been impossible without a 4th member present. I assume you are abandoning this interpretation for the purpose of the challenge?
They are participating in the game. Whether or not the set up is valid is an important discussion for any challenge, otherwise the challenge is pointless.
As for solving the riddle, how are you sending ice assassins back in time to protect your ancestors? You're a wizard aren't you, not a psion? And how do your assassins auto manage to protect your ancestors? Are they infallible?
Also I seem to recall that when I pointed out that a Vecna-blooded would have a hard time introducing itself to its former party members in another thread, you insisted they would be able to know of you by your absence, that they would remember a sequence of events they 3 of them did that would have been impossible without a 4th member present. I assume you are abandoning this interpretation for the purpose of the challenge?
If he considers the setup invalid and the challenge pointless he's just as free as everyone else to decide whether or not to participate. This is my thread, that I created with purpose to continue a discussion with some people that was already ongoing, and allowed other people to join as it struck their fancy. This game progresses as planned until such time as it is complete or until there are no participants. Anyone who doesn't wish to participate is to be considered encouraged to marvel at how pointless it apparently is without going into the thread they've no interest in to heckle the OP.
Eschew components teleport through time to remove all non-costly components. Send a team of ice assassins back to make a demiplane to teleport back to safely each time. Only send ice assassins on the trips because the spell has a chance of failing based on time distance to be traveled that scales intelligence damage with the time that was failed. You find a convenient, reliable method of preventing hundreds upon hundreds of ninths-casting, nearly impossible to detect conventionally ice assassins from protecting someone we can discuss that. In a different thread. That isn't the game. I'll even post it if you insist.
Actually I was just going to have all characters with any close ties to the wizard simply conveniently dead. It's a much cleaner solution to the problem than assuming total memory amnesty of close people, and is rather simple to engineer in this fashion with the powers at its disposal.
If he considers the setup invalid and the challenge pointless he's just as free as everyone else to decide whether or not to participate. This is my thread, that I created with purpose to continue a discussion with some people that was already ongoing, and allowed other people to join as it struck their fancy. This game progresses as planned until such time as it is complete or until there are no participants. Anyone who doesn't wish to participate is to be considered encouraged to marvel at how pointless it apparently is without going into the thread they've no interest in to heckle the OP.
It's not "heckling the OP" to say "I don't think your setup works by RAW". But sure, feel free to dismiss all such concerns, and have fun with your challenge. I have no interest in participating in this, its reminds me too much of the kid in the playground who keeps making up new superpowers.
It's not "heckling the OP" to say "I don't think your setup works by RAW". But sure, feel free to dismiss all such concerns, and have fun with your challenge. I have no interest in participating in this, its reminds me too much of the kid in the playground who keeps making up new superpowers.
It's not about the RAW. It was never about the RAW. It's about deriding the very concept of the thread itself. Do you not see how getting derisive over the core conceit of a thread with hours of work put into it is possibly a smidge rude?
It's not about the RAW. It was never about the RAW. It's about deriding the very concept of the thread itself. Do you not see how getting derisive over the core conceit of a thread with hours of work put into it is possibly a smidge rude?
No. You're issuing a challenge, someone questioned whether your challenge works by RAW. If anything I find your insistence that people should ignore any suspicious they have because of the hours of work you put into this, well not rude, but a little conceited.
No. You're issuing a challenge, someone questioned whether your challenge works by RAW. If anything I find your insistence that people should ignore any suspicious they have because of the hours of work you put into this, well not rude, but a little conceited.
No. That's not it. That is not what I'm taking issue with. I repeat that is not what I'm taking issue with. I may not have enjoyed most of that post but the specific thing that set that off was outright dismissal of the riddle game concept in general. The riddle game was the reason I posted the thread, the discussion I want to have, and the entire reason I spent so much time setting it up. No I will not scrap that concept because of someone's distaste for ''twenty questions.''
Telonius
2016-08-23, 06:23 AM
The only issue I can see is the Doctor Who problem: "Oh, you've been eliminating yourself from history. You know you could be reconstructed by the holes you've left." (EDIT: Fits even more since you're basically trying to turn yourself into a Silent). You might still have problems with high-level Seers via Hypercognition.
The only issue I can see is the Doctor Who problem: "Oh, you've been eliminating yourself from history. You know you could be reconstructed by the holes you've left." You might still have problems with high-level Seers via Hypercognition.
Which was the premise that started the thread by forcing me to devise a counter-method which I then made into a riddle with excessive hinting. It was just a simple themed game to add some color to a discussion.
One Step Two
2016-08-23, 08:13 AM
Hm, I think Lucid dreaming might work here, assuming I can find your dreamscape, assuming you sleep at some point.
Heliomance
2016-08-23, 08:29 AM
Well the clue clearly refers to Prestidigitation. Not certain how that helps though.
Psyren
2016-08-23, 04:50 PM
The result? No one knows about you to oppose you. Even if they do you can't be divinationed at all.
I wouldn't go this far. Sure, Vecna-blooded makes you immune to divination spells, but says nothing about clairsentience powers (or divination powers for that matter, thanks to Erudite) and transparency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#psionicsMagicTransparenc y) does not extend to templates either. Similarly, SLAs, Supernatural abilities, and Divine Salient divination abilities are unaffected - none of these are spells.
As for the primary ability protecting you, it has several weaknesses too:
All knowledge of the Vecna-blooded creature fades from the world. Its original name, its deeds before becoming Vecna-blooded, and so forth, disappear from memory. Only Vecna and the Vecna-blooded creature retain this knowledge.
It speaks of Knowledge fading from the world, but what about knowledge of you that is outside the world? Say, on another plane? Hypercognition for instance datamines the Astral Plane for knowledge, and that is outside/around the world in pretty much every cosmology, including the one Vecna comes from. What about your dreams as someone suggested? What about time travel? What about your deeds after getting the template? Then there's getting the template itself:
When an arcane spellcaster manages to unravel the Seven Riddles of Vecna, that individual can become Vecna-blooded. None know the true nature of these riddles, but solving them sends a caster to a pocket dimension known as the Oubliette of Secrets.
Taken literally, nobody knows the nature of the riddles, not even Vecna himself. How do you plan to solve them? Even copying the deity won't work, because he himself doesn't know them as written. Nothing guarantees they're even able to be solved. And speaking of which, if you can copy Vecna, what's to stop another caster from doing so and learning everything about you, since Vecna himself retains knowledge of you?
Every time I see this template mentioned in an optimization exercise it makes me shake my head. Yeah it confers a pretty unique ability, but it relies on too many favorable readings for a TO exercise to have much meaning. You need a GM who runs a setting with Vecna in it at all, who comes up with Seven Riddles, makes them solvable, causes all the torture to not make you an NPC, makes the knowledge disappearance retroactive, extends the divination immunity to non-spells...
One step: At all times where vecna blooded is active the subject is undead. It's a requirement of the ritual to obtain the power, which is also how you cycle on and off. You raise dead yourself, then do the ritual again.
Helio: I didn't expect anyone to catch that so quickly. Has anyone told you you're brilliant lately. Well you are. If you have any tasty desserts or comfort foods around the house now is the time. You've earned it. You didn't find the whole solution, but you found like half of the most important step.
Psyrem: Dealing with people who have the power to find info on you without divinations is literally the point of the thread. I will take the time to say that reading the entire paragraph clearly paints the world as larger than the planet or even the plane for that matter. It goes out of its way to give a list of who specifically retains information.
Psyren
2016-08-23, 05:55 PM
Psyrem: Dealing with people who have the power to find info on you without divinations is literally the point of the thread. I will take the time to say that reading the entire paragraph clearly paints the world as larger than the planet or even the plane for that matter. It goes out of its way to give a list of who specifically retains information.
This is exactly what I mean by depending on favorable rulings - "World" has no specific RAW definition, and defining the world is quite literally in the GM's purview. Nor does this help you with acquiring the template in the first place as the rest of my post points out.
Also, the mods have stated they don't recognize thread ownership.
This is exactly what I mean by depending on favorable rulings - "World" has no specific RAW definition, and defining the world is quite literally in the GM's purview. Nor does this help you with acquiring the template in the first place as the rest of my post points out.
Also, the mods have stated they don't recognize thread ownership.
It does when there's a clarifying sentence literally directly after it. Further forum standard procedure in such exercises is to assume a fairly neutral DM. Literally none of the requirements outside the riddles are difficult for a character to obtain past level two. I'm using it as the cornerstone in a level twenty build. Further the riddles are fluffy as a requirement else they would've listed some skill requirement or similar. Standard procedure with fluff requirements is that they're doable and not the thing that will prevent you from doing something.
Further further while the mods don't recognize thread ownership no one is obligated to even acknowledge anyone else's presence. That's why the ignore list exists. Ergo while I can't directly order people from the thread, I've every right to only respond to the topic in question. It's a bit of a thought experiment in trying to keep a topic on topic past page five.
One Step Two
2016-08-23, 06:19 PM
Helio: I didn't expect anyone to catch that so quickly. Has anyone told you you're brilliant lately. Well you are. If you have any tasty desserts or comfort foods around the house now is the time. You've earned it. You didn't find the whole solution, but you found like half of the most important step.
Tome and Blood, page 80, Fun with Prestidigitation.
Sketch: You create a two-dimensional visual figment of whatever you desire.
Helio, you get a cookie from me, because I was thinking too obscure to remember my cantrip roots!
Psyren
2016-08-23, 06:23 PM
I wasn't so much raining on your specific parade than pointing out the myriad flaws with Vecna-blooded in a more general sense. Not that it matters in the end, since I think our definitions of "neutral DM" diverge quite substantially in any case.
In any event, I've said my piece, good luck with your riddle.
I wasn't so much raining on your specific parade than pointing out the myriad flaws with Vecna-blooded in a more general sense. Not that it matters in the end, since I think our definitions of "neutral DM" diverge quite substantially in any case.
In any event, I've said my piece, good luck with your riddle.
Thank you for at least being polite and leaving on good terms. If more people disagreed like you the world would be less of a grumpy place.
One step: Why yes that was the entire point of that clue. Anyone who even stumbles across the right answer may dismiss it out of hand, not seeing relevance due to not properly respecting the power of zero. Prestidigitation is a factually important part of this yes.
Extra Anchovies
2016-08-23, 06:40 PM
What means are you using to get rid of the Vecna-blooded template in order to regain Cloak of Mystery? It's explicitly called out as sticking around after the other abilities go away, and AFAIK there's not many ways to lose God-blooded other than the means given in MM5 (which leaves Cloak of Mystery hanging around). I'm pretty sure PAO won't do it, which leaves Reincarnate (which means inconvenient repeated death) and Wish as per Savage Species, but both of those might not work (I'll dig into them further if you're relying on one of them) and the latter option may not be able to apply templates and explicitly involves some DM adjudication.
Also, Vecna-blooded says nothing about being undead, so I'm not sure where you're getting the notion that it does :smallconfused:
Well lets get right into the thick of this then. First off I was never using vecna blooded for the divination immunity. Right there in the plan that was mentioned as being completely secondary to the memory wipe which was literally the reason to take it to begin with. Even if we completely ignore the shaky territory of duplicated divination spells, that entire section is irrelevant to the actual plan in the grand scheme of things.
I don't really see how it's shaky. If the template provided "immunity to all divination effects used against it or cast to learn information about it", then it would cover things like Elemental Weirds' Prescience, but it says "all divination spells cast against it" - so it doesn't cover divination effects that are not spells, or that are not cast. The Monster Manual's entry on spell-like abilities very consistently says spell-like abilities are "used" or "activated", and never refers to spell-likes as being "cast". It does, however, mention that a creature with spell-like abilities has "a designated caster level" for their abilities and refers to "the creature's caster level", so there's an at least solid case to be made that a spell-like ability that replicates a spell is treated as if it were a spell cast by a truly spell-capable creature (e.g. a wizard) and thus that Cloak of Mystery blocks it. Personally, I think that Cloak of Mystery does indeed shut out divination SLAs.
Supernatural abilities are a different matter. Going back to the Monster Manual, the supernatural ability rules text says that "a supernatural ability has an effective caster level equal to the creature’s Hit Dice". Unlike the designated caster level of SLAs, this is an effective caster level - which means that the supernatural ability does not have a caster level, but is treated as if it had a certain caster level for determining the ability's effects (but not for any external effects - e.g. supernatural abilities can't be dispelled). So the evidence that spell-likes are cast is not present in supernatural abilities; along with the MM's exclusive use of "use" rather than "cast" to refer to the activation of a supernatural ability, there's nothing supporting the notion that supernatural abilities are cast. Because they are not cast, they are not subject to Cloak of Mystery. So supernatural divination effects - like, again, the Elemental Weirds' Prescience - work fine against Vecna-blooded creatures, which I think makes sense; after all, supernatural spell-replicating effects aren't normal magic. You go, girl. (https://40.media.tumblr.com/25a27eefe8ee93f85c7da740d44ffde7/tumblr_n41mtaJulv1rdx7deo1_400.jpg)
If we're working with the assumption that Vecna-blooded is accessible, we have just as much reason to assume that the other deities have god-blooded creatures. Someone who knows that each major god has associated god-blooded except for (apparently) Vecna and who knows Vecna's penchant for secrets would have reason to suspect that there are Vecna-blooded creatures that are kept hidden or secret somehow. Confirming this is one Contact Other Plane away; asking "Are Vecna-blooded creatures possible?" isn't cast against or to learn information about any particular Vecna-blooded creature. From there, non-spell divinations or non-divination spells can be used to determine if any Vecna-blooded creatures exist, and if so, who and where they are.
Cloak of Mystery erases knowledge of each specific Vecna-blooded creature, but not of the idea or knowledge that nonspecific Vecna-blooded creatures can or do exist, so a character who gains that knowledge once does not have to regain it each time a creature gains the Vecna-blooded template.
Secondly the rules interpretation of versatile spellcaster. Even if we assume spell prep is mandatory you still don't get to learn anything of value about the wizard because he can fill every slot with read magic. Every wizard can prep read magic. Even that one. Especially that one. Read magic also has exactly zero practical application in combat and is thus effectively equivalent to a blank list.
With that in mind, we know that the Vecna-blooded wizard, if put in danger, only has their contingencies and spontaneously cast Divination spells at their disposal until the next time they can prepare spells. This cripples their offensive abilities (e.g. Contingent Celerity -> save-or-lose of choice), but it does still allow for defenses like Contingent Teleport or Plane Shift.
First and foremost on the memory trick, and this is important, its purpose is to provide a form of safety from ice assassin that relies on no items, can't be dispelled, and can't be gotten around with any combination of revivals, interrogation of the ice assassin, or even miracles. The ice assassin can't have its mindstate restored because it never knew anything more than it did at creation.
The mind rewrite is indeed a very solid defense against Ice Assassin as a means of gaining information. It can, however, still be cast - and even without your spellbook, the IA copies can still prepare spells from someone else's. I'm also pretty sure the whole Vecna-blooded thing is a necessary component of a mind-rewrite Ice Assassin defense, but Vecna-blooded helps block out a lot of other means of getting information.
For that matter neither does the deity you're partitioning.
I'm not sure what you mean by this :smallconfused:
Now on to making this workable. Did you forget that the spell that produced this state of affairs was gods damned mindrape? The character ceases to need logical motivations, knowledge of capabilities, or even directives beyond steps on the path to the next intended goal. They're programmed. That's part of the point.
Yeah, but in rewriting its consciousness, the creature's consciousness ceases to exist, replaced by a new one. It's the same body and soul, but the original mind - the one that we're trying to protect from Ice Assassin - is gone until the Contingent Miracles reverse the spell's effects.
But lets assume for a moment that you're correct and I'm required to offer you some coherent logic the character operates under. That's also easy. Leave knowledge of what a wizard 20 is, his list of prepared read magic, and the knowledge that something immensely helpful but undefined will occur if he is impeded.
That's pretty solid. I suppose it works fine if you (the player) are alright with switching from playing a wizard to playing a not entirely identical but very, very similar wizard. Maybe the original wizard decides they've gotten enough out of life and wants to stop existing, but they also don't want to waste their talents and knowledge by dying and/or don't want their soul to end up as food or currency for someone on an outer plane somewhere. It would be an interesting "screw you, gods" way to go, especially in a setting like Faerûn where the gods bully everyone into worshipping them. Also, given the high Intelligence of a Wizard 20, the new-you could well puzzle out the trick that created them, which would lead to a fun "huh, I really am that smart" moment.
Why riddle? Did you ever consider for a moment that a thread largely about a vecna related ability used by a character fluffed as his chosen, an ability which you must answer seven riddles to obtain, might, just might, use the concept of a riddle as a thematic game related to the topic at hand?
Neh. Fair enough.
As for the correction regarding the ability text thank you for making me realize that I actually accidentally nerfed my own cornerstone ability. That was actually constructive.
You're welcome :smallbiggrin:
Eschew components teleport through time to remove all non-costly components.
Ugh, this "trick" again. Do you also adhere to the notion that every spell component pouch contains an unlimited quantity of unspecified artifacts (Apocalypse from the Sky), severed hands from good-aligned clerics (Crushing Fist of Spite), and the caster's own blood (Fire in the Blood)? :smalltongue::smallbiggrin:
As written, Eschew Materials is nigh-useless, extending only to items with defined costs of 1 gp or less; an undefined cost is non-interchangeable with a cost of zero, in the same way that an ability score of zero is non-interchangeable with an ability score of —. Extending "a material component costing 1 gp or less" to substances without stated costs but that are common and easily bought or sold, such as sulfur or gum arabic, is sensible. Extending it to unique items without stated costs is silly. Either way, it's not adhering to RAW.
One Step Two
2016-08-23, 07:10 PM
As written, Eschew Materials is nigh-useless, extending only to items with defined costs of 1 gp or less; an undefined cost is non-interchangeable with a cost of zero, in the same way that an ability score of zero is non-interchangeable with an ability score of —. Extending "a material component costing 1 gp or less" to substances without stated costs but that are common and easily bought or sold, such as sulfur or gum arabic, is sensible. Extending it to unique items without stated costs is silly. Either way, it's not adhering to RAW.
Just as a note, the material components of Portal through time are: A pinch of dead skin, a drop of oil of timlessness, and a Flower.
Now, while the flower needs specific circumstances to be plucked, eschew materials covers all of these.
Dead skin? While not listed as 0gp, you could just pull out your pumice stone and give yourself a quick exfoliation if you want to be really specific about it
Now, as for the OilUnguent of Timelessness, a flask contains one pint, and according to google, a pint contains 9463.53 drops, which means that a single drop of the Unguent costs only 0.016(rounding up) gold pieces.
The flower is honestly the tricky part. Flowers cost different things depending on what they are for, mention a wedding, and flower costs sky rocket. But we do have a cost of a flower in the Wealth and money section of the SRD. Saffron! One pound of which costs 10gp. According to google it takes 150 saffron flowers to create 0.035oz of saffron, which, if my maths is correct, is about 2 copper pieces.
What do you guys think?
What means are you using to get rid of the Vecna-blooded template in order to regain Cloak of Mystery? It's explicitly called out as sticking around after the other abilities go away, and AFAIK there's not many ways to lose God-blooded other than the means given in MM5 (which leaves Cloak of Mystery hanging around). I'm pretty sure PAO won't do it, which leaves Reincarnate (which means inconvenient repeated death) and Wish as per Savage Species, but both of those might not work (I'll dig into them further if you're relying on one of them) and the latter option may not be able to apply templates and explicitly involves some DM adjudication.
Also, Vecna-blooded says nothing about being undead, so I'm not sure where you're getting the notion that it does :smallconfused:
I don't really see how it's shaky. If the template provided "immunity to all divination effects used against it or cast to learn information about it", then it would cover things like Elemental Weirds' Prescience, but it says "all divination spells cast against it" - so it doesn't cover divination effects that are not spells, or that are not cast. The Monster Manual's entry on spell-like abilities very consistently says spell-like abilities are "used" or "activated", and never refers to spell-likes as being "cast". It does, however, mention that a creature with spell-like abilities has "a designated caster level" for their abilities and refers to "the creature's caster level", so there's an at least solid case to be made that a spell-like ability that replicates a spell is treated as if it were a spell cast by a truly spell-capable creature (e.g. a wizard) and thus that Cloak of Mystery blocks it. Personally, I think that Cloak of Mystery does indeed shut out divination SLAs.
Supernatural abilities are a different matter. Going back to the Monster Manual, the supernatural ability rules text says that "a supernatural ability has an effective caster level equal to the creature’s Hit Dice". Unlike the designated caster level of SLAs, this is an effective caster level - which means that the supernatural ability does not have a caster level, but is treated as if it had a certain caster level for determining the ability's effects (but not for any external effects - e.g. supernatural abilities can't be dispelled). So the evidence that spell-likes are cast is not present in supernatural abilities; along with the MM's exclusive use of "use" rather than "cast" to refer to the activation of a supernatural ability, there's nothing supporting the notion that supernatural abilities are cast. Because they are not cast, they are not subject to Cloak of Mystery. So supernatural divination effects - like, again, the Elemental Weirds' Prescience - work fine against Vecna-blooded creatures, which I think makes sense; after all, supernatural spell-replicating effects aren't normal magic. You go, girl. (https://40.media.tumblr.com/25a27eefe8ee93f85c7da740d44ffde7/tumblr_n41mtaJulv1rdx7deo1_400.jpg)
If we're working with the assumption that Vecna-blooded is accessible, we have just as much reason to assume that the other deities have god-blooded creatures. Someone who knows that each major god has associated god-blooded except for (apparently) Vecna and who knows Vecna's penchant for secrets would have reason to suspect that there are Vecna-blooded creatures that are kept hidden or secret somehow. Confirming this is one Contact Other Plane away; asking "Are Vecna-blooded creatures possible?" isn't cast against or to learn information about any particular Vecna-blooded creature. From there, non-spell divinations or non-divination spells can be used to determine if any Vecna-blooded creatures exist, and if so, who and where they are.
Cloak of Mystery erases knowledge of each specific Vecna-blooded creature, but not of the idea or knowledge that nonspecific Vecna-blooded creatures can or do exist, so a character who gains that knowledge once does not have to regain it each time a creature gains the Vecna-blooded template.
With that in mind, we know that the Vecna-blooded wizard, if put in danger, only has their contingencies and spontaneously cast Divination spells at their disposal until the next time they can prepare spells. This cripples their offensive abilities (e.g. Contingent Celerity -> save-or-lose of choice), but it does still allow for defenses like Contingent Teleport or Plane Shift.
The mind rewrite is indeed a very solid defense against Ice Assassin as a means of gaining information. It can, however, still be cast - and even without your spellbook, the IA copies can still prepare spells from someone else's. I'm also pretty sure the whole Vecna-blooded thing is a necessary component of a mind-rewrite Ice Assassin defense, but Vecna-blooded helps block out a lot of other means of getting information.
I'm not sure what you mean by this :smallconfused:
Yeah, but in rewriting its consciousness, the creature's consciousness ceases to exist, replaced by a new one. It's the same body and soul, but the original mind - the one that we're trying to protect from Ice Assassin - is gone until the Contingent Miracles reverse the spell's effects.
That's pretty solid. I suppose it works fine if you (the player) are alright with switching from playing a wizard to playing a not entirely identical but very, very similar wizard. Maybe the original wizard decides they've gotten enough out of life and wants to stop existing, but they also don't want to waste their talents and knowledge by dying and/or don't want their soul to end up as food or currency for someone on an outer plane somewhere. It would be an interesting "screw you, gods" way to go, especially in a setting like Faerûn where the gods bully everyone into worshipping them. Also, given the high Intelligence of a Wizard 20, the new-you could well puzzle out the trick that created them, which would lead to a fun "huh, I really am that smart" moment.
Neh. Fair enough.
You're welcome :smallbiggrin:
Ugh, this "trick" again. Do you also adhere to the notion that every spell component pouch contains an unlimited quantity of unspecified artifacts (Apocalypse from the Sky), severed hands from good-aligned clerics (Crushing Fist of Spite), and the caster's own blood (Fire in the Blood)? :smalltongue::smallbiggrin:
As written, Eschew Materials is nigh-useless, extending only to items with defined costs of 1 gp or less; an undefined cost is non-interchangeable with a cost of zero, in the same way that an ability score of zero is non-interchangeable with an ability score of —. Extending "a material component costing 1 gp or less" to substances without stated costs but that are common and easily bought or sold, such as sulfur or gum arabic, is sensible. Extending it to unique items without stated costs is silly. Either way, it's not adhering to RAW.
The undead thing was just part of the common necessary trick for non-caster entry and is actually unnecessary. Seems I actually nerf myself more often than I'd think. At any rate this simplifies the proceedings actually. The important part isn't that the template as a whole leave. The important part is technically not having the template so that it can be reapplied with all that comes with it.
Again the divination immunity isn't even the important thing. I offered to not even enter into argument on bypass methods, because I know SOME are possible, and it's not even the main benefit here.
Yes, there is in fact an ongoing war involving murdering people who hunt the identities of vecna-bloodeds. This thread involves figuring out the immediate response method to anyone getting even remotely specific information.
How on earth would their list let alone contingencies be limited? Once you qualify for and have versatile spellcaster You can use any two slots to produce a spontaneous slot of the level higher. We were debating whether spells even have to be prepared. Even if they do, nothing has changed. That was why I gave you that.
The point of the defense isn't to be immune to the casting of ice assassin. As we've covered, true immunity is impossible. We can, however, become a less worthwhile target than literally any other high level mage.
The line about petitioning deities refers to the fact that even the gods forget any knowledge of the subject on a daily basis, thus rendering contact other plane unreliable. Vecna knows, but is also supremely unlikely to ever give you information on his own servants.
And the original mind not existing until such time as it's necessary is exactly the defense against ice assassin. I don't see what's so hard to grasp here. Are you imagining some philosophical quibble with self annihilation and recreation that isn't there?
It's not even about avoiding deity worship. Vecna's chosen fluff remember? He's just rather ardently devoted to being the best gods damned secret keeper that has ever existed.
The only reason I'm using eschew material components is that I'm not sure I could get the specified plot of land with a flower in it out of the bag without interacting with it in some way that counts as disturbing it. Best to just obviate the question. Also yes the spell component pouch has ALL your costless needs. Kinda part of why this defense was invented to begin with actually.
Edit for one step: Not the argument I'd choose to address it, but it works. At any rate I like both your style and the cut of your jib.
One Step Two
2016-08-23, 09:02 PM
Edit for one step: Not the argument I'd choose to address it, but it works. At any rate I like both your style and the cut of your jib.
I was just specifically calling out the material costs for Portal through time, and that it can be quantified, more of a side discussion than the actual topic of the thread at hand.
Speaking of which, where do we stand with the use of Prestidigitations "Sketch" ability of "Whatever you desire", including the face of someone who I only barely recognize as existing? I could use a recurring contingency or a spell clock to make it pop up periodically to remind me to search for you.
I was just specifically calling out the material costs for Portal through time, and that it can be quantified, more of a side discussion than the actual topic of the thread at hand.
Speaking of which, where do we stand with the use of Prestidigitations "Sketch" ability of "Whatever you desire", including the face of someone who I only barely recognize as existing? I could use a recurring contingency or a spell clock to make it pop up periodically to remind me to search for you.
Oh you're getting very close to my method, but you've yet to quite reach it yet. The problem with this is that you don't have any idea what my face looks like and the spell doesn't generate knowledge. It's not that easy. I will tell you that you've gotten much closer. Close enough, in fact, for me to grant you the clue that vecna's chosen is clothed in a black cloak which is neither cloth nor a cloak.
Heliomance
2016-08-24, 01:21 AM
Oh you're getting very close to my method, but you've yet to quite reach it yet. The problem with this is that you don't have any idea what my face looks like and the spell doesn't generate knowledge. It's not that easy. I will tell you that you've gotten much closer. Close enough, in fact, for me to grant you the clue that vecna's chosen is clothed in a black cloak which is neither cloth nor a cloak.
Portable hole?
Portable hole?
No although that is ALSO a fun way of being a terrible person I've done before. Ever bait an ubercharget into going right for you only to have him jump into the void which you proceed to remove, fold up and bury? Oh or this great thing I did once in a similar scenario with a series of four ring gates set to create an endless fall half of which occurs in sped up time the other in slow time? With yakety sax playing the entire time? That was great. Moral of the story is that I'm just the worst person when mildly annoyed, bored, and given ultimate power.
In other news I'll probably let out a longer series of clues about the cloak tomorrow.
icefractal
2016-08-24, 02:30 AM
The non-divination divination method isn't "a very permissive reading of Contingency" is it? Ie: "Contingent Prestigitation: If anyone is currently searching for my true identity, turn my gloves blue."
The thing that strikes me as risky about this is that Crafted Contingencies are harder to protect than other items. For the KbtA item, you could make it slotless and stick it inside your body, where nobody else has LoE to it. But with your goals and knowledge stored in contigent spells, you have to protect against Disjunction 100%, or else become (unrecoverably) a shadow of your former self.
I say unrecoverably, because if there's a method to get the knowledge back without those specific contingencies (putting a mental block against remembering it rather than actually removing it, for example), then people can just use it on the IA.
I know that Disjunction-prevention is something you'd want to do anyway, but it still seems like a risk. Also means you have to do all your "true self" actions inside a Time Stop if you don't want people making Ice Assassins during the window of memory.
I like the concept though, very transhumanist. It raises an interesting thought - if someone's doing this, we shouldn't assume they're the original mage. After all, why condemn yourself to a half-life of brief moments, when you're already cooking with fire Mindrape? You can just find some sucker, give them the necessary training, and make them think they're you. Meanwhile, the real you is watching from a demiplane while drinking a refreshing beverage - and remaining undetected because of also having Vecna-Blooded and not being the one who takes actions people could investigate.
Heliomance
2016-08-24, 02:53 AM
No although that is ALSO a fun way of being a terrible person I've done before. Ever bait an ubercharget into going right for you only to have him jump into the void which you proceed to remove, fold up and bury? Oh or this great thing I did once in a similar scenario with a series of four ring gates set to create an endless fall half of which occurs in sped up time the other in slow time? With yakety sax playing the entire time? That was great. Moral of the story is that I'm just the worst person when mildly annoyed, bored, and given ultimate power.
In other news I'll probably let out a longer series of clues about the cloak tomorrow.
Hrm, not actually cloth or a cloak - that speaks to Shrink Item to me. Not certain what the original material would be - some sort of exotic planar matter?
The non-divination divination method isn't "a very permissive reading of Contingency" is it? Ie: "Contingent Prestigitation: If anyone is currently searching for my true identity, turn my gloves blue."
The thing that strikes me as risky about this is that Crafted Contingencies are harder to protect than other items. For the KbtA item, you could make it slotless and stick it inside your body, where nobody else has LoE to it. But with your goals and knowledge stored in contigent spells, you have to protect against Disjunction 100%, or else become (unrecoverably) a shadow of your former self.
I say unrecoverably, because if there's a method to get the knowledge back without those specific contingencies (putting a mental block against remembering it rather than actually removing it, for example), then people can just use it on the IA.
I know that Disjunction-prevention is something you'd want to do anyway, but it still seems like a risk. Also means you have to do all your "true self" actions inside a Time Stop if you don't want people making Ice Assassins during the window of memory.
I like the concept though, very transhumanist. It raises an interesting thought - if someone's doing this, we shouldn't assume they're the original mage. After all, why condemn yourself to a half-life of brief moments, when you're already cooking with fire Mindrape? You can just find some sucker, give them the necessary training, and make them think they're you. Meanwhile, the real you is watching from a demiplane while drinking a refreshing beverage - and remaining undetected because of also having Vecna-Blooded and not being the one who takes actions people could investigate.
Wow. Just wow. Congratulations. Very impressive batman. You even got most of the specific criteria right. You're still not done yet. After all if contingent prestidigitation ''divination'' was the only trick you hadn't learned in this method why would I need the black cloak which is neither cloth nor cloak? For that matter why would a person bereft of most of their memory take meaning from a randomly generated symbol? There's more ways of storing information and contingencies than you've spoken.
Edit: And helio is already getting to work on the first of the two backup plans. Oh this is delicious.
Heliomance
2016-08-24, 03:13 AM
Edit: And helio is already getting to work on the first of the two backup plans. Oh this is delicious.
It's not voidstone, is it? I can't think what useful purpose cloaking yourself in shrunk voidstone would accomplish, but it's one of te few things I can think of that's explicitly called out as being black and has interesting properties. Adamantine is often considered to be black, but I can't think of any particular anti-divination properties of that either.
Extra Anchovies
2016-08-24, 03:21 AM
Speaking of which, where do we stand with the use of Prestidigitations "Sketch" ability of "Whatever you desire", including the face of someone who I only barely recognize as existing?
My reading is that "whatever you desire" means that the image takes a specific shape, determined by you, and thus can only replicate images that you already know. For things that you don't know, it would only be able to pull from your imagination and any theories you have (regardless of their veracity) about the appearance of the sketch's subject.
The flower is honestly the tricky part. Flowers cost different things depending on what they are for, mention a wedding, and flower costs sky rocket. But we do have a cost of a flower in the Wealth and money section of the SRD. Saffron! One pound of which costs 10gp. According to google it takes 150 saffron flowers to create 0.035oz of saffron, which, if my maths is correct, is about 2 copper pieces.
That's a very clever approach, but I don't think this is a valid means of cost estimation. The price of a product derived from a flower does not necessarily correlate with the price of the flower itself; chamomile tea, for example, probably doesn't have the same cost as the number of chamomile flowers necessary to produce the tea. Keeping a flower alive requires effort and resources on the part of the seller, which in turn increases the price of a live flower, but an oil or powder or whatever that came from a once-live but now dead flower can be tucked away in a jar and has no maintenance cost.
Also definitely worth noting is that the spell does not require a flower; it requires a specific flower, with the specific flower being different for each casting of the spell. That, I think, is not something that can have a specific price applied to it.
Teleport Through Time is also kind of a cop-out, because then any conflict turns into a loop:
A: "I send someone back in time to do X"
B: "I send someone back in time even earlier to stop the person you sent from doing X"
A: "I send someone back in time even earlier to stop the person you sent to stop the person I sent from doing X"
etc etc
The important part is technically not having the template so that it can be reapplied with all that comes with it.
And how are you doing this?
How on earth would their list let alone contingencies be limited?
They are limited to their contingencies and to spontaneously cast divinations, i.e. those two categories are the only magic they have available until the next time they prepare spells.
Once you qualify for and have versatile spellcaster You can use any two slots to produce a spontaneous slot of the level higher.
To produce a spontaneous slot... which then needs to have a spell prepared in it if you want to use it for anything other than Spontaneous Divination. Preparing spells always takes at least 15 minutes (plus 8 hours of prior rest), and when they are threatened enough that they get knowledge of their abilities back, they won't have time to prepare spells. Because they don't have any spells available other than Read Magic and Spontaneous Divination spells, and because Crafted Contingent Spells have to target or be centered on the caster, filling slots with Read Magic would greatly limit the un-rewritten wizard's ability to deal with the threat without first popping off to a fast-time plane for spell preparation, which they may not be able to do.
This is a bit of a moot point, though - you could just as well fill all the slots with basic wizard spells like magic missile, knock, fireball, dimension door, and so on, so Ice Assassins can't convey any meaningful information about your spellbook.
The point of the defense isn't to be immune to the casting of ice assassin. As we've covered, true immunity is impossible. We can, however, become a less worthwhile target than literally any other high level mage.
True immunity is possible if you can, somehow, restructure your body such that the material component for Ice Assassin cannot be fulfilled.
Some portion of the creature to be duplicated (hair, nail, and so on) must be placed inside the ice statue as it is constructed.
i.e. having a body that cannot have portions removed from it than can also be placed inside an ice statue. Becoming a ghost and tossing your corpse into a Sphere of Annihilation would work, because AFAIK there's no way to separate part of a ghost's incorporeal form from the rest of it.
Eschew Materials doesn't work with Ice Assassin for the same reason that it doesn't work with Apocalypse From The Sky, and for the same reason that spell component pouches aren't overflowing with severed hands.
The line about petitioning deities refers to the fact that even the gods forget any knowledge of the subject on a daily basis, thus rendering contact other plane unreliable. Vecna knows, but is also supremely unlikely to ever give you information on his own servants.
Ah, petitioning, as in serving or worshipping. You made a typo and wrote "partitioning", as in dividing or breaking into pieces, and I was wondering why we were suddenly talking about chopping up deities :smalltongue:
And the original mind not existing until such time as it's necessary is exactly the defense against ice assassin. I don't see what's so hard to grasp here. Are you imagining some philosophical quibble with self annihilation and recreation that isn't there?
If I were given the opportunity to erase myself from existence, replacing me (i.e. the consciousness that is telling a body to type the words that you are reading) with another consciousness similar to me but that is not me, and then return to existence (re-replacing the consciousness that initially replaced me) if the new consciousness's existence were gravely threatened, I would not take that offer. If the offer guaranteed my replacement defense against some terrible threat (what's something real that's as much of a threat as Ice Assassin? Maybe tigers?), or even guaranteed that my replacement would have a completely pleasant life with no harm or danger, I would not accept it, because I do not want to stop existing. And I do not have nearly as much to lose as a 20th-level wizard does.
So, yes. I don't think this is something that anyone who is sane and determined enough to make it to 20th level would want to do.
It's not even about avoiding deity worship. Vecna's chosen fluff remember? He's just rather ardently devoted to being the best gods damned secret keeper that has ever existed.
I was speculating about why a wizard would want to erase themselves from existing in a non-death manner. Just thought it was an interesting concept.
The only reason I'm using eschew material components is that I'm not sure I could get the specified plot of land with a flower in it out of the bag without interacting with it in some way that counts as disturbing it. Best to just obviate the question. Also yes the spell component pouch has ALL your costless needs. Kinda part of why this defense was invented to begin with actually.
Eh. Our obviously different readings of Eschew Materials means we're arguing from irreconcilable positions. I've already explained how the feat doesn't even do what it's supposed to by RAW, let alone more than that, so I haven't anything more to say regarding the ability to cast Teleport Through Time or Ice Assassin without the costless material components.
I like the concept though, very transhumanist. It raises an interesting thought - if someone's doing this, we shouldn't assume they're the original mage. After all, why condemn yourself to a half-life of brief moments, when you're already cooking with fire Mindrape? You can just find some sucker, give them the necessary training, and make them think they're you. Meanwhile, the real you is watching from a demiplane while drinking a refreshing beverage - and remaining undetected because of also having Vecna-Blooded and not being the one who takes actions people could investigate.
This would indeed be pretty neat. I'm not sure how (or if) it would be possible to make someone else count as the real you while you tuck yourself away in a private, planar-travel-locked demiplane.
The non-divination divination method isn't "a very permissive reading of Contingency" is it? Ie: "Contingent Prestigitation: If anyone is currently searching for my true identity, turn my gloves blue."
[yes]
Wow. That's your trick? Your amazing master riddle? Contingent Spell abuse? Yawn. If that's your definition of clever, then I'll stop wasting my time in this thread.
It's not voidstone, is it? I can't think what useful purpose cloaking yourself in shrunk voidstone would accomplish, but it's one of te few things I can think of that's explicitly called out as being black and has interesting properties. Adamantine is often considered to be black, but I can't think of any particular anti-divination properties of that either.
I'll give you another hint. The cloak which is not a cloak could've easily been any color. I merely like the thematics. It also isn't made of any mineral or magical item, though it is the result of many many spells. It also will not cease to function if disjoined, and is immensely resistant to most all conventional forms of harm. I've also deliberately been using a misleading pronoun to refer to it, and continue to do so even in this sentence because that is how an outside observer would refer to it without knowing about it.
EA: Actually that was just step one. Since we were clearly irreconcilable about the readings at the very core of the riddle and you didn't want to participate in the actual proceedings I'm none to broken up at that revelation. Bye.
Heliomance
2016-08-24, 03:46 AM
I'll give you another hint. The cloak which is not a cloak could've easily been any color. I merely like the thematics. It also isn't made of any mineral or magical item, though it is the result of many many spells. It also will not cease to function if disjoined, and is immensely resistant to most all conventional forms of harm. I've also deliberately been using a misleading pronoun to refer to it, and continue to do so even in this sentence because that is how an outside observer would refer to it without knowing about it.
So am I wrong about Shrink Item then?
EDIT: Oh, right. We're talking Tippyverse tricks here. The cloak is made of Ice Assassins of Aleaxes which have done the Psionic Sammich trick to become threads which are then woven into a cloak or something of the sort.
So am I wrong about Shrink Item then?
EDIT: Oh, right. We're talking Tippyverse tricks here. The cloak is made of Ice Assassins of Aleaxes which have done the Psionic Sammich trick to become threads which are then woven into a cloak or something of the sort.
Not aleax (Using that non-jokingly would obviate the entire exercise literally one step below pun-pun), and not turned into threads. You were right about ice assassin and partially right that shrinking is involved. It's much more involved than just turning to thread.
One Step Two
2016-08-25, 09:19 PM
I'm not above admitting defeat, I'm either thinking of sources too obscure, or haven't gone into the full deep-end of the Tippy-verse to get the answer to this.
Can we get an answer, or even another hint?
I'm not above admitting defeat, I'm either thinking of sources too obscure, or haven't gone into the full deep-end of the Tippy-verse to get the answer to this.
Can we get an answer, or even another hint?
Have you ever considered the utility of the druid spell return to nature as it relates to giant and similar? How it effects them as reduce person, is instantaneous duration, and does nothing whatsoever to disqualify the same same creature from being effected multiple times? Why using this on permanently transformed ice assassins you can even gain access to microscopic giant minions. Then it's just a matter of piling on defenses to these living creatures and having them grab each other in the shape of a cloak.
Helio was VERY close. I just refuse to seriously use aleax because it obviates the exercise and thread form forbids my cloak from easily separating when advantageous.
Question is can you tell me why that's so useful?
One Step Two
2016-08-25, 09:58 PM
Ah! The Death Giant is the answer. The Steal Soul and Guardian Souls abilities ensure anything that challenges you, and is defeated, never escapes to tell the tale!
Ah! The Death Giant is the answer. The Steal Soul and Guardian Souls abilities ensure anything that challenges you, and is defeated, never escapes to tell the tale!
Fun idea but no. Everyone who challenges me escapes. Death is cheap you see. The specifics involve permanently transforming victims into bunnies after wiping their memories, then time traveling the victim back and leaving them in a petting zoo on a private demiplane.
Craft contingent spell disallows complicated condition activaters. Have you considered using prestidigitation in combinations with craft contingent spell and minions to make more complex triggers in a language of shapes?
One Step Two
2016-08-25, 11:12 PM
Fun idea but no. Everyone who challenges me escapes. Death is cheap you see. The specifics involve permanently transforming victims into bunnies after wiping their memories, then time traveling the victim back and leaving them in a petting zoo on a private demiplane.
Craft contingent spell disallows complicated condition activaters. Have you considered using prestidigitation in combinations with craft contingent spell and minions to make more complex triggers in a language of shapes?
Oh, that much is straight forwards, with a contingency on a specific set of minions, that turns them different colours or a set into a shape of colours when targeted by a Spell of X description, along with a general contingency to Time Stop when targeted by anything external from yourself, even incedentally, to give you a better read of what's trying to affect you.
Oh, that much is straight forwards, with a contingency on a specific set of minions, that turns them different colours or a set into a shape of colours when targeted by a Spell of X description, along with a general contingency to Time Stop when targeted by anything external from yourself, even incedentally, to give you a better read of what's trying to affect you.
Yes but more specifically this means you can shape contingencies with more complex triggers by tying said triggers to patterns of shapes. Suddenly you've the power to learn things much more quickly, react with even greater precision to threats, and hide contingencies inside complex actions. The cloak can also act as a mental backup even if disjoined. After all each ice assassin is mindraped into knowing almost nothing at all, but each of the countless billions of them know a little bit each. The cloak will also never be identifiable as a magic item of any sort because it's not. It does nothing without interacting with me. By all appearances it's purely non-magic. Even if you figure out what the cloak is made of using special senses like mindsight, it can separate and escape or simply self destruct.
Pretty thorough for a backup plan/useful tool am I right?
One Step Two
2016-08-25, 11:34 PM
Yes but more specifically this means you can shape contingencies with more complex triggers by tying said triggers to patterns of shapes. Suddenly you've the power to learn things much more quickly, react with even greater precision to threats, and hide contingencies inside complex actions. The cloak can also act as a mental backup even if disjoined. After all each ice assassin is mindraped into knowing almost nothing at all, but each of the countless billions of them know a little bit each. The cloak will also never be identifiable as a magic item of any sort because it's not. It does nothing without interacting with me. By all appearances it's purely non-magic. Even if you figure out what the cloak is made of using special senses like mindsight, it can separate and escape or simply self destruct.
Pretty thorough for a backup plan/useful tool am I right?
Oh most certainly. You can even use telepathy with the cloak to form a sort of psychic gestalt of information, each "thread" containing a thought, or memory fragment that tells a story. As long as you mentally program yourself to remove curiosity and the need to casually browse the information contained within it you can maintain your state as a non-person.
Oh, did you take into account a contingency to mindrape yourself after completing a set task to forget you've ever done it, in addition to the constant reset of Vecna Blooded?
Oh most certainly. You can even use telepathy with the cloak to form a sort of psychic gestalt of information, each "thread" containing a thought, or memory fragment that tells a story. As long as you mentally program yourself to remove curiosity and the need to casually browse the information contained within it you can maintain your state as a non-person.
Oh, did you take into account a contingency to mindrape yourself after completing a set task to forget you've ever done it, in addition to the constant reset of Vecna Blooded?
Yep. I also made two backup plans for the backup plan just in case excrement really hits fan. One includes hiding singular microassassins all over the multiverse with intent to revive and reprogram should it become necessary. The other involves the real self similarly shrunken in a microcontainer full of quintessence while the body outside is also an ice assassin. Can't very well divine information on someone vecna-blooded, removed from time, who remembers nothing, hidden inside a copy of himself.
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