Undertale: Sell me on it

[quinron]

First off, I should probably say that this is going to be pretty spoilery; I'm looking for replies from people who have seen all the game has to offer.

I bought Undertale a while ago, and while I haven't finished a run yet, I got quite close; I'm just not feeling the incentive to finish, nor to play it through again. I've done a pacifictic run so far (if what I've read is right, you have to finish the game at least once before you can get a True Pacifist ending), and it's been... less than impressive to me.

I came into the game knowing the hype: that it's a game where you don't have to kill monsters. What annoys me, though, is that the option to kill monsters only seems to be there so that the developer can feel smug when the game slaps you on the wrist for it. You're introduced to combat by being taught the Mercy commands, characters constantly call you up to ask you not to kill people; I don't feel inclined to kill anyone, so I feel especially annoyed when most of the boss fights are geared around tricking me into doing so - Toriel's fight stresses "showing mercy without running away," but the only way to pass Undyne without killing her is to run away?

Basically, I've seen almost all there is to see in the game - I've not managed to get past Mettaton EX, and I just don't care to do so. I've seen people point to the characters as the game's best feature, and while they're more well-written and engaging than most video game characters, I don't find them as interesting as the characters in most middle-quality TV and movies. What I'd like to know, fans of Undertale, is what's the thing that made you love this game?

[Lethologica]

I came into the game knowing the hype
I did this too, and I had a similar loss of interest, and I think it's an understandable problem. If you run the game as a perfect pacifist from the start, it's a chore. But if you know perfect pacifism is possible, it feels like the option the game 'wants' you to take, even though the game actually tries to hide it, and even though you might think it's perfectly ethical to kill some of the monsters (they're killing you, after all). The game's probably more interesting when you're deciding between imperfect alternatives.

[Guancyto]

The game didn't really 'click' for me (it was charming, yes, but no more than that) until I went and hung out with Papyrus.

If you haven't already, go back and get the scenes with Papyrus and Undyne.

(Also, Mettaton EX's pacifist fight is one of the best, for whatever that's worth.)

[Sian]

That you need someone to give you a sale-pitch when you've gone into it knowing that it was hyped ... sounds like you already have made your decision on some level, but aren't quite willing to recognize it.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

What sold me on the game was the novelty of the narrative, and the neutral run isn't going to delve into some of the best moments. In fact, you haven't (in my opinion) gotten to the best narrative bits in the neutral run, although that might be because I'm a sucker for emotionally-laden stories.

The biggest thing I like about the game is when it uses the language of gameplay to tell the story, like the different patterns in enemy/boss fights. When that goes hand-in-hand with the dialogue of the game, that's what sells me on the atmosphere. It's the way that it characterizes everyone and brings you into the world with mechanics. My favorite example of that definitely comes in the ultimate boss fight of the neutral run, which in many ways resembles the climax of a trippy anime and has a ton of pathos (and a fantastic villain) wrapped into it.

Also, the build-up to the final fight of the Pacifist run, plus the fight itself, is wonderfully epic.

One last thing that I forgot to mention: you don't actually have to replay the entire game for a Pacifist run. If you've avoided killing anyone, and have set everything up properly (make sure you've been in touch with Undyne), you will get an opportunity to jump right to the "point of divergence", which cuts out the vast majority of the game and gets you right to the new stuff.

[Lord Raziere]

Well it seems you've already made your decision, but what the hell, I'll give it a shot.

If your looking for a game where you can flip-flop on your decisions, don't play Undertale. To get the best parts of Undertale, you need to pick one path and stick with it.

Like, if you want to know the true beauty of a pacifist run? you must never kill. Ever. Not even once. No, not even then. Every time your given the option to spare, you take it. Every time it seems hopeless and you can't take the option to spare, you must hold out hope that you WILL be given the option to spare them eventually. and you will be rewarded for that.

If you want to know the true horror of a Killer Run? You must never spare. Ever. You kill everyone. Everyone you meet, dies, no matter the reason. You do it for the sake of them all dying, until they are all dead simply for the challenge. and you will see the consequences for doing so.

Sure you can decide to spare one monster then kill the next, but that will only ever lead to a Neutral run, and isn't the best part of Undertale. The best parts are in the extremes where you either be the best you can possibly be and make friends with everyone, or be a complete mass-murderer. your decisions are cumulative, they add up to one ending or another. Sure there is a lot of endings in between the Best and the Worst, but the Best and Worst Paths are the ones that the most meaningful, the most compelling, the ones that matter the most, and honestly are the paths that the game is most designed for.

So choose one or the other, but don't be middling. The Neutral run is really just supposed to be for a new player to get used to the game, figure things out, explore, try this and that before going one or the other fully.

[Lethologica]

Well it seems you've already made your decision, but what the hell, I'll give it a shot.

<stuff>
You...seem to be selling the OP on the hype the OP is already aware of? I guess this puts paid to my supposition that starting with the blind neutral run makes for a more rewarding overall experience, though.

[quinron]

A bit more clarification: I've done the date with Papyrus, I've gone to Undyne's house - basically, I went online to find all the requirements for a True Pacificist run and I've done them. I've killed nobody, even reloading after the first time I killed Toriel - and I have to say, when the lead-in quote for that fight was (paraphrased) "Show me that you're strong enough," it felt like a bit of a slap in the face that I ended up killing her. It was less "emotional response to the death of my surrogate mother" and more "oh crap, I didn't mean to do that... time to save scum."

My concern isn't that I was put off by the hype; I knew that I wouldn't find the game as magical as the early fans, and I adjusted my expectations accordingly. But like I said, I'm just not feeling the urge to keep going, and I'm curious as to whether that means I'm missing out on some magical element. You could say it's less that I've been spoiled by the hype and more that I'm curious as to what led to the hype in the first place.

[Lord Raziere]

You...seem to be selling the OP on the hype the OP is already aware of? I guess this puts paid to my supposition that starting with the blind neutral run makes for a more rewarding overall experience, though.

I did do a blind neutral run. I also knew the hype. I don't see the conflict between them. See, the thing that a lot of the internet doesn't get? Hype only ruins something as much as you let it, and its not entirely the outside world's fault if you don't buy in to something- you have to be willing to give something a chance because or despite its hype and keep an open mind. I didn't think I'd like Steven Universe or MLP: FiM either, just like I thought I wouldn't like a game like Undertale where I couldn't be an awesome action hero, but I gave them all a chance and look where I am now.

@ jinjitsu: well here is the thing:
the save scumming is apart of the setting. if you did play through and kill Toriel as a mistake then go back and spared her, thats an intentional learning experience of the game, with Flowey calling you out in his own despicable way that you did that. and thing is, once you gone through a thing once, the world changes with people remembering your choices in small ways that make subsequent playthroughs a little different. here the ability to Save and Reset are in-universe things whose implications are explored. the intention is that its a clever little thing where "what if a video game protagonists ability was an actual in-universe thing, and what if some people were aware of it?" and one of those implications is that just because you have that ability doesn't diminish the impact of those deaths- you still did that, the protagonist has the ability to have a perfect run where nobody dies, to make a perfect world, with unlimited retries- they have no excuse to not try again until they have done it right.

and thing is, it isn't the same every time- there are differences, and if you make certain choices, you pass certain points where there ARE consequences for your actions, even if you Reset. the game remembers. The choice of Butterscotch or Cinnamon? You can't make that again if you go back, it remembers now. A small example that means there are some things that you can't truly take back.

[Lethologica]

Heh. Well, there are ways around that. But then, that's a little more of the game's magic washing away if you let yourself do that...

[Lord Raziere]

Heh. Well, there are ways around that. But then, that's a little more of the game's magic washing away if you let yourself do that...

Which is your choice.

The thing about Undertale? its all about how much your willing to give what its trying to say a chance. It doesn't actually force you to do anything, or railroad you into being good or evil- it criticizes you and provides logical consequences for the actions you do, but it doesn't actually prevent you from doing anything. if you want to strip away all the magic of it, you can do that by killing everyone and cheating your way out of it. if you want to give it a chance with its message, you can immerse yourself as much as you can and try to expand on the relationships and drama of the characters in your personal time.

I mean I keep hearing complaints about Undertale's way of "punishing" you for killing, but I don't see what the problem is. Your not being prevented from killing anyone else. Your not being railroaded back into being pacifist. All that is happening, is that the characters are reacting to it. Turns out, these people all have relationships with each other that means when you kill them, they react negatively to it. Like anyone would. There is no mechanical punishment, and in fact you grow stronger from killing someone that these people love and care about. So what is the complaint? that killing is being punished at all? Especially when they are games like Skyrim who punish you far harsher for killing someone in a town- with guards attacking and killing you as soon as they can.

The entire point of Undertale in fact is that your digging your own hole. All this is about your choices and where they lead you. And that while your free to make any choice you want, you don't exist in a vacuum. Those choices affect others, and thus you make your own bed from whatever choice you made, so whether or not your happy with those choices is honestly no one's fault but your own. And thing is? My brother once taught me something: happiness is a choice. You choose to be happy with what you do, you choose look at things positively or negatively. Your own choice of attitude contributes to what you feel about something and colors your perceptions.

So one can either look at the game negatively and criticize it for not being as good as some other thing, or you can look at positively what it does and the good of what choices you made, and be happy with that. Sure there is a Killer Run, but there is also a Pacifist Run and I did that run, and I'm happy with the fact that I chose Pacifist and got to see its ending, and take its message with me to try and show similar values in real life that could help others, and be happy when I can connect with someone because of that shared experience, can make a reference about it that can be understood, and learn from playing it something I would've never have otherwise.

All that darkness and murder of the Killer route? Thats a choice. You don't start out that monster you make yourself into it. Similarly, you don't start out saintly pacifist, but you can become so if you make those choices consistently. Behavior just doesn't happen. It is chosen.

[Forum Explorer]

The part that makes me love Undertale? Well I got really into it. The first time I played it, I went in mostly blind. And I didn't go full murdery, and in fact tried to spare most monsters. But at the same time, if the monster wouldn't surrender, then I'd flat out kill them. And when I got called out on my crap by Undyne, and later Sans, it was an incredible experience.

But that won't apply to you, as you've read guides. And I don't get the feeling that you chose Pacifist as much as been obligated into it by an expectation that it's the 'best' ending. Also you're comparing it to TV characters. It's like, I get the feeling you're keeping the game at a distance. And it's tricky and more artistic aspects as a video game only really come into play on a second playthrough, or if you didn't go full pacifist to start off with. Because it plays with the expectation that EXP is a good thing and so is being a higher LV.

So really, I don't know how I can help you. It's the equivalent of going into a movie that has a twist with the twist fully spoiled for you.

[Lethologica]

Raz, no one comes to this thread to be moralized at. No one in this thread was objecting to the game on those grounds. The OP is having trouble maintaining interest in the game while taking the path whose virtues you are extolling. Literally the opposite of someone who complains about being punished for killing. Frankly, they'd probably have a better experience with the game if they'd killed some dudes.

[Amaril]

See, this, I think, is the single biggest problem with Undertale. It is, in my opinion, the best video game made to date--but only if you go into it completely, totally, absolutely blind. If you know anything beforehand, even the core premise (that you don't have to kill anyone), the game's impact is totally lost.

When I first picked up the game, I knew basically nothing about it; a friend recommended it to me without really explaining it at all, I went and downloaded it and jumped right in. I started going through the Ruins, was introduced to the whole mercy mechanic, and thought "okay, this is clearly setting itself up as a happy, cutesy game about making friends and being nice". Which, of course, made me absolutely certain that there was some dark twist coming where all those expectations would be turned on their heads, because that's the kind of thing popular games do (the meeting with Flowey also hinted pretty clearly that there was more to it). Then I got to the fight with Toriel, and immediately thought "there it is". At that moment, I felt like I saw what the game was doing: it was a story about the loss of innocence. You start off in an artificially constructed safe playground, being taught that if you're just nice to everybody and follow the rules, everything will be okay. Then Toriel, the surrogate parent who's been teaching and protecting you, reveals herself to not have your best interests at heart at all, the illusion is broken, and you're thrown abruptly into the real world and forced to learn the harsh truth, that sometimes hurting others is the only way to survive.

So, of course, I killed Toriel, because that was clearly what the game required, and what my character would have done. And I felt like crap. But I was sure in my decision. I'd done what I had to do. Yeah, it hurt, but that was clearly the point. Just because it hurts to do it doesn't necessarily mean there was a better way. Still, it was uncontestedly the most emotion a game had ever made me feel.

So I was ready for a game all about making those kinds of hard choices, about balancing the need to preserve your innocence and goodness with the need to survive at any cost. At that moment, though, I decided to take a break to calm down a bit, and went to report to my friend on my progress and how much I was loving the game so far.

And then my friend told me "no, you weren't supposed to kill Toriel", and explained that, no, you really don't have to kill anyone, ever, in order to finish the game.

From then on, the whole thing was irreparably cheapened for me. I never killed anyone else, not because I thought it was really the right way to play, but because now that I knew, it felt like what the game expected. Looking back, I know that if I'd gone through the whole rest of the game in ignorance, I would almost certainly have killed several other characters, and it would have made the game feel much more meaningful. I've tried starting up the game again with the intent of killing all the characters I would have killed the first time if I hadn't known, but I've never managed to get through the whole game again. The magic is gone.
So, yeah, if this is how you feel about the game after going into it with advance knowledge, I don't think there's much anyone can do to change your mind. Sorry :smallfrown:

[Spore]

What I'd like to know, fans of Undertale, is what's the thing that made you love this game?

1) The music. I like retro music. I love variations of the same leitmotifs. A game could be utter crap and I'd still play it for the epic music. That's why I bought Crypt of the Necrodancer, too. The gameplay is certainly not mine but I obsess over the soundtrack.

2) The humor. The characters are loveable, sure. But I tend to not attach myself to characters composed of 1 and 0s. The Tu-TORIEL was annoying, the Toriel fight was cringeworthy

And only really there for the genocide option anyhow. Where you backstab YOUR goat mom in cold blood.

but after sans' first appearance, the whoopie cushion and his brother Papyrus the game had me. Along with adorable dogs, weird dogs, annoying dogs and Temmie.

3) The drama.

A lonely skeleton desperating seeking attention, a time lord skeleton, a fish with burning passion, a scientist who shoehorns the situation to look like the savior of the underground and a king who is forced to kill for freedom

each boss fight had its own dilemma. The boss fights had reason. So while Metal Gear Revengeance (which I consider the pure opposite, shallow story and boss design, but epic scenery) introduced bosses just to kill them, Undertale introduced characters to serve as bosses later. (I know, Sundowner appears once in the intro mission as well as Sam but they are not fleshed out very good).

Plus, I love fairy tales.

4) The graphics. I grew up in the SNES era and while I never had the pleasure to play Mother or Earthbound I love stylized 2D sprites. Realistic (3D) graphics age so terribly. Anything imbued with the Zeitgeist of the current era ages terribly.

[Eldan]

Strange, that sounds like a list of reasons that immediately turned me off the game. Well, not the humour and the drama, but I never got far enough for that. I thought the graphics, the music and the gameplay were all horrible, though. I mean, I didn't like beepy music in the eighties and I don't like it now.

[quinron]

Amaril, I think you've probably given me the biggest insight into this - I came into the game knowing I didn't have to kill anyone, so I felt a little twinge at realizing I'd killed Toriel and I reloaded. From then on, I didn't approach things on my own terms; I approached them on the True Pacifist ending's terms.

Sporeeg, I think you've nicely compartmentalized the game's major draws. I think part of my trouble has been with the tone - to me, the drama all feels a bit maudlin, but I love the humor; however, the game swings wildly back and forth between them, especially when you leave things like Papyrus and Undyne until later in the game. The music I can generally take or leave, except for Undyne's theme, which is simultaneously hilarious and epic. And the graphics I don't really have an opinion on - I think they're good for what they are and that's about it - but I can see the appeal.

As a concession to the hype: I found the Papyrus date uncomfortable rather than endearing or funny - it just made me cringe to see someone try so hard to make me like them, which is kind of how I've come to feel about the whole game. However, outside that, I find Papyrus quite entertaining, and the cooking lesson with Undyne was the highlight of the game for me. That, and Temmie - I spent about an hour endlessly farming dog carapaces so I could buy the Temmie shopkeeper's wares, and I grew to love all those adorable little weirdos.

[Amaril]

See, what's frustrating about Undertale is that it relies so heavily on spoilers that ruin its appeal to market itself, when it really doesn't need to. I said earlier that you need to go into it completely and totally blind, but thinking about it, there's actually a lot to say that doesn't ruin it.

If I were to recommend the game to someone who'd never once heard of it before, I'd do it something like this: Undertale is a retro RPG about innocence, justice, violence, and growing up. It takes a lot of inspiration from Earthbound; it uses pixel art graphics, and has amazing music and a battle system that combines turn-based RPG combat with mechanics from bullet hell shooters. The characters and story are incredible, with tons of choices that really change the experience, but don't look up anything about it until you've finished it at least once, because you really don't want to spoil it for yourself.

There, see? I think that's a good description of what the game is like, without ruining it. It's just a shame everyone jumps straight to the spoilers while completely ignoring everything else the game has going for it :smallannoyed:

[Afgncaap5]

For me, knowing that there was a Pacifist ending definitely had an impact, but it didn't cheapen it. I think the secret ingredient that made it different for me was not really comprehending how the game warded itself from restarting and attempts to forget the consequences of the past plays.

So, I wasn't really shackled by the presence of a True Pacifist ending so much as I was ennobled by it. I kept thinking "Well, killing's always an option, but maybe I can go a liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiittle bit further without resorting to it." And, honestly, while I got True Pacifist, it also wasn't a perfect ending; I occasionally had to abandon fights rather than finding a way to win them peacefully. Tsundereplane, for instance: I had no idea how to get a mercy option from her. I know now, of course, and the idea of going through again and trying for a "perfect" ending is, at times, tantalizing...

So... I think the difference between the game being cheap and the game being awe-inspiring is whether or not you treat True Pacifist as an achievement you can work toward or whether you treat it as an ending you can discover. If you want to go through the game again... and it's weird to say this... but maybe True Pacifist isn't for you? Maybe you should just go for the story, and figure out what story you want to tell? Figure out what sort of person your character is at any given point in the game's progression, and be THAT person instead of the person who'll get a certain ending. I mean, if you're given a lump of clay and you're not already really good at one kind of sculpting, you're bound to be frustrated if you think you're not allowed to sculpt in a style that you're more comfortable with; building to your ending in Undertale is sort of the same thing.

Having said all that, something pretty spoilery...

The best moment for me wasn't even the True Pacifist ending. It was just the neutral-pacifism ending. It was a sort of... I don't know how to explain it. I said above that I wanted to go "just a little more", and, well... after fighting that boss, I felt like it was done. But the actual finale came after that, when it's just you and Flowey.

When you keep sparing him, he starts off by taunting you, because you're an idiot. Then he starts threatening. But then (and this is where the game's magic caught me off guard) he became afraid.

Seconds ago it was a fight for my life against something Lovecraft might've written about, and then this horrible thing feared me. This creature that wasn't even a Monster (by the game's definition) looked at me, and began shouting that it couldn't understand what was happening, or what I was doing, or why. Then Flowey ran.

The game had just pulled a Reverse Lovecraft. I'd stared into the abyss, and it had recoiled. I'm trying not to make it seem like a bigger moment for me than it was, because it was really over in moments, but it stuck with me. I can't say that anyone out there'll have the same reaction to that moment, and honestly I feel like I've cheapened it by pointing it out in these terms, but the fact that the game was willing to make me work so hard for a "your power of love has changed things" moment, something that'd seem so stupid anywhere else, was pretty special.

Anyway... the game's not really about getting endings, I think. I think it's about being someone or standing for something, and how the person we are affects others. If you need persuaded to play the game, well, honestly it might not be for you, and that's honestly cool. I'm still happy I got to see it, though. :smallsmile:

[Avian Overlord]

If you can compartmentalize your brain enough to do a neutral run, and to let the chips fall as they may without reloading, that works too. I decided I was going to play as a failable human at the outset, and I had a much better time than I would have had committing to a challenge run (which pacifist is, doing the whole game on 10 HP is rough).

Actually, most of the powerful moments I remember from my first playthrough only could have happened on a neutral run. A reenactment of the scene where Frodo spares Gollum (but with a talking dog). A full-on battle to the death ending with the hilarious anticlimax of "Whoops, thought you were someone else!" A gut twisting moment with an old friend in a cafe. A big climatic battle with Undyine, after running away for an entire area. Enemies that actually surrender once you're clearly winning! (This I do want in every other RPG). Accidentally creating a semi-dystopia centered around celebrity worship.

It's kind of a pity the way Undertale pushes you to play it in a way that avoids all these sorts of moments. Although given the number of endings for the neutral run, and the dirty tricks the game plays to get your hands dusty, I suspect Toby Fox did intend it to be played first.

[NeoVid]

The reason I'll give you for finishing the game is that it'll only take you about an hour to get each of the two endings you're working toward, and since you can see the conclusion with less effort than you've put in so far, why miss out?

I personally have always believed that a story-based game can't be judged until you've completed it, because that means you haven't seen what the entire story was building up to.


Amaril, I think you've probably given me the biggest insight into this - I came into the game knowing I didn't have to kill anyone, so I felt a little twinge at realizing I'd killed Toriel and I reloaded. From then on, I didn't approach things on my own terms; I approached them on the True Pacifist ending's terms.


Huh. I really thought that Flowey's reaction to a player retrying the Toriel fight was one of the best moments in the game, since I'd never seen a video game deal with that sort of thing in-character.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

The reason I'll give you for finishing the game is that it'll only take you about an hour to get each of the two endings you're working toward, and since you can see the conclusion with less effort than you've put in so far, why miss out?
I would definitely agree with this. There's very little left in the game, if you want to finish it proper (and the True Pacifist ending feels very much like a conclusive ending), and both endings are considerably better than what passes for an ending in typical video games.

[Cybershark]

It's Spec Ops: The Line: The RPG.

[NeoVid]

It does a much better job at that kind of story than Spec Ops, since Undertale actually gives you the option to not commit atrocities. Every possible death in Undertale is due to your actions as a player, which is why the game's worst path gets so damn horrific.

[Raimun]

I don't undestand this game. I think I never will. It's... kind of poking fun at the NES-era. Which was its own kind of horrible. Seriously, NES wasn't that awesome. Games' quality actually got way better at SNES-level. That is where sweet spot of nostalgia was*.

I think my half (quarterly? eight?) read article from Penny Arcade summed up the experience for me.

*Objective statement. It's not possible to refute this.

[Kish]

It does a much better job at that kind of story than Spec Ops, since Undertale actually gives you the option to not commit atrocities. Every possible death in Undertale is due to your actions as a player, which is why the game's worst path gets so damn horrific.
Yeah, other games have done the "you've killed thousands! Feel horribly guilty!" thing, and in every other case I can think of it falls dead flat because you didn't actually have a choice.

[Lethologica]

I don't undestand this game. I think I never will. It's... kind of poking fun at the NES-era. Which was its own kind of horrible. Seriously, NES wasn't that awesome. Games' quality actually got way better at SNES-level. That is where sweet spot of nostalgia was*.

I think my half (quarterly? eight?) read article from Penny Arcade summed up the experience for me.

*Objective statement. It's not possible to refute this.

That is so, so far from the point of Undertale.

[Forum Explorer]

I don't undestand this game. I think I never will. It's... kind of poking fun at the NES-era. Which was its own kind of horrible. Seriously, NES wasn't that awesome. Games' quality actually got way better at SNES-level. That is where sweet spot of nostalgia was*.

I think my half (quarterly? eight?) read article from Penny Arcade summed up the experience for me.

*Objective statement. It's not possible to refute this.

Oookay? :smallconfused: I don't think it was really banking on nostalgia. Maybe for Earthbound (which was SNES right?), barely. But regardless the game stood on it's own merits for it's jokes, story, and really interesting gameplay that you pretty much never see replicated elsewhere.

Though I would like to read that article if you can find a link to it.

[Amaril]

Yeah, other games have done the "you've killed thousands! Feel horribly guilty!" thing, and in every other case I can think of it falls dead flat because you didn't actually have a choice.

Yeah, but I don't think that's what's interesting about Undertale. As I've explained, I think the game has the most impact when you don't know that you have a choice. The thing that makes Undertale stand out is that rather than painting the violence as "you've killed all these people, you're bad, and you should feel bad," it seems, at least at first, to instead be saying "you've killed all these people, and it sucks, and you probably feel bad, but that doesn't mean you were wrong". Which is a much more nuanced and mature view of violence than the other games you're referring to ever seem to take. Of course, that changes when you realize you actually do have the choice to not kill anyone, and the game's message changes a lot once you pass that point, to something I personally don't find nearly as compelling (though I get why some people do).

[Forum Explorer]

Yeah, but I don't think that's what's interesting about Undertale. As I've explained, I think the game has the most impact when you don't know that you have a choice. The thing that makes Undertale stand out is that rather than painting the violence as "you've killed all these people, you're bad, and you should feel bad," it seems, at least at first, to instead be saying "you've killed all these people, and it sucks, and you probably feel bad, but that doesn't mean you were wrong". Which is a much more nuanced and mature view of violence than the other games you're referring to ever seem to take. Of course, that changes when you realize you actually do have the choice to not kill anyone, and the game's message changes a lot once you pass that point, to something I personally don't find nearly as compelling (though I get why some people do).

I don't know. I played with the attitude that I could save everyone, but I wanted to beat them into submission rather then talk them down. That ended up killing Toriel. And I reloaded, and to my friend's hilarity and surprise I used it to kill her properly that time (IE, she wasn't sparing me from having low HP) because I killed her and dammit there are consequences to that sort of thing! But he pretty much told me as a result that it was possible to spare her. And no one was harder (or trickier) to spare then her.

It wasn't until Undyne called me out and later refused to have anything to do with me that I really regretted my actions. Sans telling me about Toriel was the second gut punch, and hit me so hard I completely missed the part where he threatens you. (A good thing, cause that would've provoked me into doing a genocide run, guaranteed).

[NeoVid]

I don't undestand this game. I think I never will. It's... kind of poking fun at the NES-era.

Huh. I assumed all games built with GameMaker were 8-bit until I looked it up just now.

[Arbane]

I've never seen any other game with a fighting system like Undertale's, and it does some very creative things with it.