Exhaustion Tweak

[ZenBear]

I wonder, if you changed the rules of Exhaustion to be able to reduce the level by 1 with a short rest and reset it to 0 with a long rest, how would that affect gameplay in general, and specifically for Berserker Barbarians?

Subquestion: What if you also changed Intimidating Presence to key off of Strength or Constitution instead of Charisma? Would these two changes together make Berserker more powerful than Totem? Too powerful?

[R.Shackleford]

First, you can already use another ability score with Intimidate. That's in the PHB.

But I really don't think exhaustion would come up all that often even if you changed it. Might see more frenzy barbarians at play tho.

[Zman]

Generally speaking it'd be ok as Exhaustion isn't a terribly common effect, but it would kind of break the Frenzy Barbarian. You'd be looking at almost every rage use being a Frenzy and when coupled with GWM you have a lvl3 Berserker spending three encounters per day with DPR ~35, and a lvl5 Berserker at ~52, spiking significantly higher against lower AC enemies. Sure, DPR isn't everything, but the levels you'd be seeing regularly from a Frenzy Barbarian combined with GWM will make most low to mid level combats difficult to balance. Now, this is less a problem with Frenzy or tweaking exhaustion, but a problem of multiple attacks, reckless, and GWM's power attack. Letting Berserkers Frenzy isn't too problematic in and of itself with one Frenzy per short rest, but be careful of what it enables when combines with GWM.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Generally speaking it'd be ok as Exhaustion isn't a terribly common effect, but it would kind of break the Frenzy Barbarian. You'd be looking at almost every rage use being a Frenzy and when coupled with GWM you have a lvl3 Berserker spending three encounters per day with DPR ~35, and a lvl5 Berserker at ~52, spiking significantly higher against lower AC enemies. Sure, DPR isn't everything, but the levels you'd be seeing regularly from a Frenzy Barbarian combined with GWM will make most low to mid level combats difficult to balance. Now, this is less a problem with Frenzy or tweaking exhaustion, but a problem of multiple attacks, reckless, and GWM's power attack. Letting Berserkers Frenzy isn't too problematic in and of itself with one Frenzy per short rest, but be careful of what it enables when combines with GWM.

You can remove the frenzy from the barbarian and it would be balanced.

Many people have done so and it doesn't really change anything.

[Zman]

You can remove the frenzy from the barbarian and it would be balanced.

Many people have done so and it doesn't really change anything.

I am fairly certain that what you intended to say was not what you actually said.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I am fairly certain that what you intended to say was not what you actually said.

*frenzy's downside

[NNescio]

Generally speaking it'd be ok as Exhaustion isn't a terribly common effect, but it would kind of break the Frenzy Barbarian. You'd be looking at almost every rage use being a Frenzy and when coupled with GWM you have a lvl3 Berserker spending three encounters per day with DPR ~35, and a lvl5 Berserker at ~52, spiking significantly higher against lower AC enemies. Sure, DPR isn't everything, but the levels you'd be seeing regularly from a Frenzy Barbarian combined with GWM will make most low to mid level combats difficult to balance. Now, this is less a problem with Frenzy or tweaking exhaustion, but a problem of multiple attacks, reckless, and GWM's power attack. Letting Berserkers Frenzy isn't too problematic in and of itself with one Frenzy per short rest, but be careful of what it enables when combines with GWM.

Isn't it just marginally higher than a GWM TotemBarb with PAM, who gets to do his trick all day? Plus other martials and sort of do the same by shoving the enemy prone first (or tripping with Battlemaster),
and Blessed Sharpshooters (Archery fighting style + Bless almost counters the -5 penalty) can just shoot from relative safety at range.

[jas61292]

Isn't it just marginally higher than a GWM TotemBarb with PAM, who gets to do his trick all day?

True. Though that is arguably absurdly unbalanced as is. And even if you don't think so, this is basically giving a class a power greater than the most powerful combat feat in the game, without needing to spend anything. When other guys are picking up PAM just to get the extra attack, you are grabbing GWM, and just blowing them away in damage. Even when they get both, you have a higher damage die (especially on your bonus action attack), more versatility (since you don't need to attack with your action to get the bonus action attack), and an extra feat or ASI.

And if you play without those feats (or without feats in general, as is default) this just becomes so overwhelmingly powerful compared to every other martial option, its not even funny.

[Zman]

*frenzy's downside

Some people do simply remove that downside, but it is not balanced. Feel free to check out the spreadsheet in my signature to see some of the comparisons. If they weren't using GWM Frenzy is indeed far less problematic with it removed, with GWM in play it is extremely strong.


Isn't it just marginally higher than a GWM TotemBarb with PAM, who gets to do his trick all day? Plus other martials and sort of do the same by shoving the enemy prone first (or tripping with Battlemaster),
and Blessed Sharpshooters (Archery fighting style + Bless almost counters the -5 penalty) can just shoot from relative safety at range.

Sure, but now you are talking about necessitating two feats instead of must one. PAM is also extremely good and it along effectively negates Berserker in the stock rules until level 14. You can see the comparision in the spreadsheet in my sig. Haven't finished the PAM+GWM block yet, but you can see GWM vs PAM vs stock Greataxe.

Yes, Fighter can definitely run into the problems with GWM, and it is a factor of GWM being a bad feat. Drop it to only one Power Attack per turn really fixes the problem. You can see the math on that in the right colum of the spreadsheet as well.


True. Though that is arguably absurdly unbalanced as is. And even if you don't think so, this is basically giving a class a power greater than the most powerful combat feat in the game, without needing to spend anything. When other guys are picking up PAM just to get the extra attack, you are grabbing GWM, and just blowing them away in damage. Even when they get both, you have a higher damage die (especially on your bonus action attack), more versatility (since you don't need to attack with your action to get the bonus action attack), and an extra feat or ASI.

And if you play without those feats (or without feats in general, as is default) this just becomes so overwhelmingly powerful compared to every other martial option, its not even funny.


Yeah, PAM and GWM are just too good feats and both need tweaks in the downward direction. I suggest limiting power attack to only one attack per turn and for Pam making it a d6 bonus action attack instead of d4+Str and making the bonus action attack not Heavy.