Illusions and Light

[Zsaber0]

Is it possible for figment spells like silent image to create working lens that distorts light. Then have that lens affect other spells that rely on light to work? If not, would it work if it was a Illusion shadow spell?

[Flickerdart]

Is it possible for figment spells like silent image to create working lens that distorts light. Then have that lens affect other spells that rely on light to work? If not, would it work if it was a Illusion shadow spell?
Yes, you could create the illusion of a lens.

No, it would not affect light spells, since real lenses would not either.

Even shadow spells will not help you.

[Duke of Urrel]

Yes, you could create the illusion of a lens.

No, it would not affect light spells, since real lenses would not either.

Even shadow spells will not help you.

I believe a real lens can affect the light produced by a Light spell. This is real light, after all, and a real lens should affect real light produced by an Evocation spell just as it affects real light from any mundane source.

Consequently, I believe a lens produced by an Illusion spell of the Shadow subschool has at least some chance of working like a real lens.

Suppose you duplicate the Major Creation spell with the Greater Shadow Conjuration spell. (You can't duplicate the 5th-level Major Creation spell with the 4th-level Shadow Conjuration spell, and you can't create a lens with the Minor Creation spell.) I believe this has at least some chance of producing a real lens that works like a real lens.

Indeed, if you apply the rule that you can willingly forego a saving throw against a spell of the Illusion school, it becomes possible to choose not to disbelieve a lens produced by the Major Creation spell as duplicated by the Greater Shadow Conjuration spell. This should make the lens 100% likely to work like a normal lens.

But even if you don't apply this rule, I think the lens that you create in this manner is 60% likely to work – or 80% likely to work if you use the Shades spell. The lens should last one hour per caster level, following the description of the Major Creation spell.

[Gallowglass]

Is it possible for figment spells like silent image to create working lens that distorts light. Then have that lens affect other spells that rely on light to work? If not, would it work if it was a Illusion shadow spell?

What's an example of a spell that "relies on light to work"? I imagine you are thinking of ray spells where you shoot a beam of energy(light) at a foe and want to try and reflect or distort the path? but there is no Rules mechanic that says such spells are subject to the physics you are trying to utilize. They are magic. So you are dependent on a lenient DM to let you impose real work physics on the game system.

If i -was- that lenient DM, I wouldn't allow an illusion to do that because that beam of light ignores your illusion as non-existant in its reality. Maybe a shadow illusion... but I'd have to be REALLY lenient.

But if you are thinking of a different scenario, then let me know. I can't think of any spell other than, say, light or daylight that relies on light to work and a lens wouldn't have an appreciable effect on an emanation like that.

[Flickerdart]

Well sure, it will bend the light those spells produce. But that won't have an effect - you can't focus a searing light spell into a deadly laser beam to increase its DC against a vampire, for example.

[Duke of Urrel]

Well sure, it will bend the light those spells produce. But that won't have an effect - you can't focus a searing light spell into a deadly laser beam to increase its DC against a vampire, for example.

I agree. It's debatable whether most spells with the Light descriptor produce any heat at all. Surely the Continual Flame spell does not. And if a spell produces zero heat to begin with, a magnifying glass shouldn't work as a multiplier, except as a multiplier of zero.

I think most dungeon masters will agree with Flickerdart's idea of how the Searing Light spell works. Even if you assume that this spell actually produces some kind of laser, I don't think you make a laser stronger by focusing it; you merely concentrate its limited energy upon a smaller area.

[nyjastul69]

What's an example of a spell that "relies on light to work"? I imagine you are thinking of ray spells where you shoot a beam of energy(light)at a foe and want to try and reflect or distort the path? but there is no Rules mechanic that says such spells are subject to the physics you are trying to utilize. They are magic. So you are dependent on a lenient DM to let you impose real work physics on the game system.

If i -was- that lenient DM, I wouldn't allow an illusion to do that because that beam of light ignores your illusion as non-existant in its reality. Maybe a shadow illusion... but I'd have to be REALLY lenient.

But if you are thinking of a different scenario, then let me know. I can't think of any spell other than, say, light or daylight that relies on light to work and a lens wouldn't have an appreciable effect on an emanation like that.

I mostly agree. However, rays, and specifically light, are not energy effects. There are exactly 5 energy effects in 3.5, fire, cold, electricity, acid and sonic.

[trikkydik]

This is where physics meets magic.
It depends on what you think supersedes the other one.
Is logic the focus of your campaign?
Or is it strict adherence to the rules?

If you choose logic, like I do, the light is radiation. Lenses DO distort light, by amplifying it or blurring it. (Just like a magnifying glass.)
Since I believe shadows to at least have some mass, my imagination is compatible with an illusion lense having an effect on light.