What "Defensive Styles" have you found?

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I'm trying to take the Barbarian's Reckless Attack and turn it around and make it into a Fighter feature.

What I have so far, and you may use this during any given round is...

Defensive Style: Your weapon damage rolls are minimized and you can't deal crit damage, but creatures take disadvantage on attacks against you

But I was wondering if anyone has seen any homebrew features or if they have any houserules for a Fighting Style that works around being defensive. Most of the things I've seen so far have revolved around attacking.

Thanks in advance!


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I should have mentioned that I'm looking for actual options people have seen with homebrew, not really looking to create anything with this thread. I'm mostly looking for ideas to base something off from. However this thread, and people making stuff, has given me a couple ideas so thanks :).

Also, this is for a 10 level class. It was pointed out that most games don't go over 10th level so don't even take 11th+ into consideration of balance :P

The entire Fighter redesign that I've made is in my sig.

What I have so far (and I need to update some things)... And by level 10 you get 4 of these (only one can be used per round).



Solitary Weapon Style: When you attack with a single melee weapon you gain a +2 to the damage roll.
Twin Weapon Style: When you use dual wielding you may use any weapon. Additionally you gain a +1 AC
Thrown Weapon Style: When you attempt a thrown weapon attack you gain a +1 to attack and +1 to damage.
Precision Weapon Style: When you attack with a ranged weapon you ignore half cover.
Defensive Style: Your damage rolls are minimized and you can't deal crit damage, but creatures take disadvantage on attacks against you

[Sirithhyando]

You could, maybe, let someone chose as a fighting style to be able to use the dodge action in bonus action.

As for turning around reckless attack, the exact opposite would be that you grand disadvantage to attack you, but you also gets disadvantage instead of minimizing your damage.

[R.Shackleford]

You could, maybe, let someone chose as a fighting style to be able to use the dodge action in bonus action.

As for turning around reckless attack, the exact opposite would be that you grand disadvantage to attack you, but you also gets disadvantage instead of minimizing your damage.

Defensive styles don't typically make you less likely to hit, when you do attack, but you don't always get a full swing.

So I don't think know disadvantage to attacks is the right way to go.

But I could see dodge for min damage.

[Biggstick]

Defensive styles don't typically make you less likely to hit, when you do attack, but you don't always get a full swing.

So I don't think know disadvantage to attacks is the right way to go.

But I could see dodge for min damage.

Minimum damage no doubt hurts some classes, but that kind of fighting style + GWM or Sharpshooter + maxed attack stat still equals a minimum of 16 damage (10+5+1 from die roll) per hit.

Disadvantage to attacks might not necessarily feel right to you, but it keeps the ability from being broken imo.

[clash]

How about:

Defensive style
If you use the dodge action on your turn you may make one melee attack as a bonus action.

Lets you dodge but limits you to one attack.

[JNAProductions]

How about:

Defensive style
If you use the dodge action on your turn you may make one melee attack as a bonus action.

Lets you dodge but limits you to one attack.

The issue is, that's more powerful than any other style before level 5.

[clash]

The issue is, that's more powerful than any other style before level 5.

This is entirely my mistake. For some reason I thought the dodge action let you add your proficiency to ac which would only be a +2 ac before level 5. +2 ac for a bonus action didnt seem much better than +1 ac all the time.

[gfishfunk]

How about:

Defensive style
If you use the dodge action on your turn you may make one melee attack as a bonus action.

Lets you dodge but limits you to one attack.

Make it 'If hit, make one melee attack at disadvantage that deals weapon damage without bonuses' and it would be a bit more balanced.

[R.Shackleford]

Minimum damage no doubt hurts some classes, but that kind of fighting style + GWM or Sharpshooter + maxed attack stat still equals a minimum of 16 damage (10+5+1 from die roll) per hit.

Disadvantage to attacks might not necessarily feel right to you, but it keeps the ability from being broken imo.

This sort of way of looking at GWM and Sharpshooter is wrong.

GWM and Sharpshooter is the problem. Not just with this situation but pretty much anytime there is a question about damage "sharpshooter/GWM" is part of the problem when talking about things being unbalanced.

So what's broken is two optional feats. Two that I see houserules out of the game quite a bit.

Besides, if we want to get rid of things that are broken we may want to look at action surge first. If you multiclass (another optional rule) then Action Surge gets quite broken.

[clash]

What about:

Counterattack style
When you take the dodge action, if you are hit with an attack before the start of your next turn, you make use your reaction to attack the creature that hit you.

Only gives you an attack action if you get hit.

[R.Shackleford]

What about:

Counterattack style
When you take the dodge action, if you are hit with an attack before the start of your next turn, you make use your reaction to attack the creature that hit you.

Only gives you an attack action if you get hit.


The big issue with this is that if you are dodging, and not attacking, enemies are liable to leave you alone and go after others. Your friends won't like you very well for not really contributing to the fight.

It has the same problem as ready actions too, you are passively playing and not actively playing and you are relying on an outside force (DM) for your PC to do something.

[Afrodactyl]

How about;
If you take the dodge action on your turn, you may make one weapon or unarmed attack as a bonus action. This attack has no modifiers to the attack roll, nor modifiers to the damage roll.

So you get to dodge, but you straight up have to hit the AC, and you're doing subpar damage if you do actually hit.

[djreynolds]

The exact opposite of reckless attack.

You make all attacks at disadvantage, but all attacks versus you are at disadvantage.

You'd be surprised how many hits will actually land for a fighter swinging at disadvantage, more than you think with bounded accuracy, an easily obtained max attack stat at level 6 and lower AC of monsters all around.

Allowing a fighter to have normal attacks but the get the dodge action as a bonus action is too powerful as they there is no cost to it. Its why the monk has to spend a KI point for patient defense.

[Giant2005]

What about taking your offense out of the equation entirely?
By spending a bonus action, all attacks made against you are made with disadvantage, but you gain vulnerability to all slashing, piercing, and bludgeoning damage.

[Hrugner]

Maybe something like this.

Clinch: Any opponent who miss both rolls while attacking you while you are taking the dodge action ends their turn immediately and provokes an attack of opportunity from you.

[djreynolds]

Maybe something like this.

Clinch: Any opponent who miss both rolls while attacking you while you are taking the dodge action ends their turn immediately and provokes an attack of opportunity from you.

That's good, an opponent who has more than one attack or multiattack misses you, you get an AoO. Very very cool.

This is it. I like it

[Laserlight]

The exact opposite of reckless attack.

You make all attacks at disadvantage, but all attacks versus you are at disadvantage.

Either this, or use the same idea as the DMG's Defender weapon: on your first attack on each of your turns, you may reduce your attack bonus and increase your AC by the same amount. The effect lasts until the beginning of your next turn.
I'd limit the variable to your Proficiency, or just a flat +/-2

[djreynolds]

This is like too. Very twinklely.

This works as well

Also, you could allow a fighter with protection to use it one himself. Even if he is dodging as reaction.

It's why I like defensive duelist so much

[SpawnOfMorbo]

You could, maybe, let someone chose as a fighting style to be able to use the dodge action in bonus action.

As for turning around reckless attack, the exact opposite would be that you grand disadvantage to attack you, but you also gets disadvantage instead of minimizing your damage.

Dodge gives you a Advantage on Dex saving throws and attacks have disadvantage, I think that would be a bit much for a fighting style.


Defensive styles don't typically make you less likely to hit, when you do attack, but you don't always get a full swing.

So I don't think know disadvantage to attacks is the right way to go.

But I could see dodge for min damage.

Dodge for minimum damage might be a bit much.


Minimum damage no doubt hurts some classes, but that kind of fighting style + GWM or Sharpshooter + maxed attack stat still equals a minimum of 16 damage (10+5+1 from die roll) per hit.

Disadvantage to attacks might not necessarily feel right to you, but it keeps the ability from being broken imo.

Personally, if a feature doesn't "feel" right then I'm not using it.

Also, the -5/+10 features don't exist in my games anymore. And if a DM is allowing homebrew they should always check feats with the homebrew. I honestly forget about the -5/+10 features in 5e.


Make it 'If hit, make one melee attack at disadvantage that deals weapon damage without bonuses' and it would be a bit more balanced.

Do you mean if you take the dodge action? Or just in general?


What about:

Counterattack style
When you take the dodge action, if you are hit with an attack before the start of your next turn, you make use your reaction to attack the creature that hit you.

Only gives you an attack action if you get hit.

Giving up your reaction is not a thing I want to do with fighting styles. Even protection style.


How about;
If you take the dodge action on your turn, you may make one weapon or unarmed attack as a bonus action. This attack has no modifiers to the attack roll, nor modifiers to the damage roll.

So you get to dodge, but you straight up have to hit the AC, and you're doing subpar damage if you do actually hit.

Dodge is more powerful than just disadvantage on attack rolls. Might as well just keep the minimum damage and give enemies disadvantage at that point as it is more straightforward.


The exact opposite of reckless attack.

You make all attacks at disadvantage, but all attacks versus you are at disadvantage.

You'd be surprised how many hits will actually land for a fighter swinging at disadvantage, more than you think with bounded accuracy, an easily obtained max attack stat at level 6 and lower AC of monsters all around.

Allowing a fighter to have normal attacks but the get the dodge action as a bonus action is too powerful as they there is no cost to it. Its why the monk has to spend a KI point for patient defense.

This could work.


What about taking your offense out of the equation entirely?
By spending a bonus action, all attacks made against you are made with disadvantage, but you gain vulnerability to all slashing, piercing, and bludgeoning damage.

Why would fighting defensively cause me to take more damage? The point of fighting defensively is to not get hit/not get hit as hard as when I'm not fighting defensively.


Maybe something like this.

Clinch: Any opponent who miss both rolls while attacking you while you are taking the dodge action ends their turn immediately and provokes an attack of opportunity from you.

Way too powerful.

Turn ending abilities at level 1? Yikes.


Either this, or use the same idea as the DMG's Defender weapon: on your first attack on each of your turns, you may reduce your attack bonus and increase your AC by the same amount. The effect lasts until the beginning of your next turn.
I'd limit the variable to your Proficiency, or just a flat +/-2

I like it, it reminds me of the Shocktrooper builds of 3e. However it seems a bit complex for a fighting style.



****

Perhaps...

Defensive Style: Before you make a weapon attack you assume a defensive stance. You are considered to have half cover from all enemies but enemies have had cover from you.

Protection: Choose a creature adjacent to you, that creature gains +2 AC unless that creature is using a shield then they only gain +1 AC. They gain this benefit only while they are adjacent to you.

[Hrugner]

Way too powerful.

Turn ending abilities at level 1? Yikes.


It costs the player their action to take the dodge action and the attacker has to miss as if they had advantage. Also, at level one, the attacker isn't as likely to be losing much anyway. I haven't play tested it, but I think it should be fairly balanced at mid level and forgettable at early levels.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

It costs the player their action to take the dodge action and the attacker has to miss as if they had advantage. Also, at level one, the attacker isn't as likely to be losing much anyway. I haven't play tested it, but I think it should be fairly balanced at mid level and forgettable at early levels.

Dodge is more powerful than just giving creatures disadvantage on attacks.

Besides, the Monk can use a dodge action and attack in the same round but it costs them Ki.

[Human Paragon 3]

How about this:

When you take the dodge action in combat, creatures that attack you and miss have a chance of falling prone. As a reaction, you target a creatures that misses you in combat. They make a dexterity save (DC is 8 plus your proficiency bonus plus your STR or DEX score, whichever is higher). Failure means they fall prone in their space.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

How about this:

When you take the dodge action in combat, creatures that attack you and miss have a chance of falling prone. As a reaction, you target a creatures that misses you in combat. They make a dexterity save (DC is 8 plus your proficiency bonus plus your STR or DEX score, whichever is higher). Failure means they fall prone in their space.

Giving up your action, bonus action if they are related to using your action, and then reaction for such a low chance to prone someone... Seems to be a round about way of knocking them prone. You also have to rely on another creature for all of this to work.

I could see...


But going off your idea...

Whenever you use the Dodge Action you may, as a bonus action, perform a basic combat maneuver (shove, grapple, disarm) against a target.

This actually could be the start of a drunken boxing archetype...

[Laserlight]

Re my "Defender Weapon" port:



I like it, it reminds me of the Shocktrooper builds of 3e. However it seems a bit complex for a fighting style.


It can be simple. When you make your first attack, your Hit and AC are normal...unless you put a shield marker by your figure, in which case you're -2 to Hit and +2 to AC. (I'd use a blue token, same thing I hand players for Inspiration, as the shield marker)

[djreynolds]

It has to be similar to combat expertise, increasing ac while decreasing to hit.

Disadvantage is said to average out to be -5. As a fighter I'll take -5 to my chance to hit, in order to gain +5 AC.

Defensive style, you have disadvantage on all attacks, but the enemy has disadvantage to hit you. Better than just taking the dodge action.

[R.Shackleford]

It has to be similar to combat expertise, increasing ac while decreasing to hit.

Disadvantage is said to average out to be -5. As a fighter I'll take -5 to my chance to hit, in order to gain +5 AC.

Defensive style, you have disadvantage on all attacks, but the enemy has disadvantage to hit you. Better than just taking the dodge action.

Thats what wotc says it is because, reasons? It actually, usually, comes out to 3.33... This is another one of those multiple small things that makes people think wotc didn't do much thinking when they put together the different parts of the game.

[Human Paragon 3]

Giving up your action, bonus action if they are related to using your action, and then reaction for such a low chance to prone someone... Seems to be a round about way of knocking them prone. You also have to rely on another creature for all of this to work.

I could see...


But going off your idea...

Whenever you use the Dodge Action you may, as a bonus action, perform a basic combat maneuver (shove, grapple, disarm) against a target.

This actually could be the start of a drunken boxing archetype...

That's pretty neat. The reason I put the action cost so high is that I was comparing it to the other styles which do simple things like give +1 AC. But your interpretation is pretty good and seems fairly balanced.

Of course after level 5 the opportunity cost of dodging at all skyrockets.

A scaling version of the style might be:

If you take the attack action in combat and use it only to shove, grapple, or disarm in any combination, you may dodge as a bonus action.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

That's pretty neat. The reason I put the action cost so high is that I was comparing it to the other styles which do simple things like give +1 AC. But your interpretation is pretty good and seems fairly balanced.

Of course after level 5 the opportunity cost of dodging at all skyrockets.

A scaling version of the style might be:

If you take the attack action in combat and use it only to shove, grapple, or disarm in any combination, you may dodge as a bonus action.

My main issue was that you have to rely on an outside force for your knockdown to occur. If a creature sees you dodging, they may not even attempt to attack you. Why attack the high AC dodging character? I really like it when a player is in control of their features.

I like your suggestion. It fits in nicely and does allow room for growth. I think I'll go with that.

It puts the player in control, gives a bit of growth, and still works around the dodge action while still being a defensive style. You may not be dealing damage but it gives you incentive to be a controller.

[MaxWilson]

But I was wondering if anyone has seen any homebrew features or if they have any houserules for a Fighting Style that works around being defensive. Most of the things I've seen so far have revolved around attacking.

Do feats count? Obviously feats are features, but PHB feats aren't homebrew features so don't technically meet your criteria. Nevertheless, you should be aware that Mobile is a first-rate defensive feat, and Polearm Master/Shield Master are both usable in the exact same way defensively because they give an extra attack (so you can push the enemy prone or away, attack him a couple of times, and withdraw in relative or complete safety depending on whether you pushed him prone or away).

[djreynolds]

Thats what wotc says it is because, reasons? It actually, usually, comes out to 3.33... This is another one of those multiple small things that makes people think wotc didn't do much thinking when they put together the different parts of the game.

What about 3 for 3? +3AC but -3 to hit.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Do feats count? Obviously feats are features, but PHB feats aren't homebrew features so don't technically meet your criteria. Nevertheless, you should be aware that Mobile is a first-rate defensive feat, and Polearm Master/Shield Master are both usable in the exact same way defensively because they give an extra attack (so you can push the enemy prone or away, attack him a couple of times, and withdraw in relative or complete safety depending on whether you pushed him prone or away).

Nah, I thought of that too but then went with feats and feat improvements becoming the Martial Archetypes for my fighter.

Champion (Blue Collar)

Charger
At 3rd level you gain the Charger Feat as a bonus feat.

Improved Charger
Starting at 6th level, you do not provoke OA whenever you use the Dash Action.

Greater Charge
Starting at 9th level, whenever you use the Bonus Action Attack granted by the Charger feat you may use the Attack Action.

Battle Master (Tactical)

Sentinel
At 3rd level you gain the Sentinel Feat as a bonus feat.

Improved Sentinel
Starting at 6th level, all attacks granted by the Sentinel feat are considered Opportunity Attacks. Additionally, you may use Sentinel even if the target of an attack other than you has the Sentinel feat.

Greater Sentinel
Starting at 9th level, creatures provoke opportunity attacks for moving around you. If a creature stays within your reach but moves 5' without taking the disengage action, you may make an Opportunity Attack against them.


Eldritch Knight (Arcane Magic)

Magic Initiate
At 3rd level you gain the Magic Initiate Feat and Ritual Caster as a bonus feat. However you may cast your Magic Initiate 1st level spell once per short rest.

Special: You must select Wizard with these feats. Intelligence is your spellcasting ability score.

Improved Magic Initiate
Starting at 6th level, whenever you cast an Eldritch Knight cantrip or spell you may teleport up to 30' as a bonus action.

Additionally, you may forget your Magic Initiate spell and choose any 1st or 2nd level spell from the Wizard list. Your Magic Initiate spell counts as 2nd level.

Greater Magic Initiate
Starting at 9th level, whenever you cast an Eldritch Knight cantrip or spell you may make a weapon attack as a bonus action.

Additionally, you may forget your Magic Initiate spell and choose any 1st, 2nd, or 3rd level spell from the Wizard list. Your Magic Initiate spell counts as 3rd level.


Most of the feats will become archetypes, observant and/or alert will combo to make a blind fighter eventually.

I really miss the Fighter Bonus Feat as the 5e Fighter actually does not gain bonus feats (only bonus ASI) and I miss the 4e Fighter too. The 5e fighter is way too Essentials for me (and my groups).


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My redesign is only 10 levels, there is no Extra Attack 2 or features beyond 10.