Dwarves and Encumbrance - The tale of a player who REALLY likes dwarves

[HurinSmite]

Hello everyone! This question might fit the more general forum but since my question circles alot around Encumbrance and dwarves I put it in this sub forum. First some backstory - not necessary to read:

I am the GM in my campaign and one of my players play a Dwarf sorcerer 1/fighter 3 with the plans to become a dragon disciple later on. He plays him as a tank mostly (chainmail and towershield) and casts true strike to hit. This is my first campaign but we've played 14 times now so I feel I've moved past the "novice" stage. I try to bring up rule clarifications between sessions as to not bog down a session. This last session I noticed that the Player with the dwarf Sorcerer/Fighter (I'm calling him C) has carrying/pushing around a dog sled (it weighs 300 lbs) when they are adventuring in this cold environment we're currently in. Understand before this I only knew he bought a "sled" and explained he used it to carry his own equipment and at a two points use as a "three person vehicle" to escape enemies down a snowy hill. I've been used to think him as a player who knows how the rules work - a veteran compared to some of the others in the campaign.

So to sum up.
- Player called C plays a dwarf tank (sorc/fighter)
- C's character uses chainmail and towershield
- Carries/pushes a dog sled (300 lbs) along on adventures
- C's character has a STR of 18 (giving him a heavy load between 201 - 300 lbs)

HERE COMES QUESTION
Dwarves' racial trait "Slow and Steady" :Dwarves have a base speed of 20 feet, but their speed is never modified by armor or encumbrance.
only removes the encumbrance effect of speed, right? There is still Max DEX limitations, ACP and Run limitation (the table where these effects are on pg 171). I would even claim that when a dwarven character carries more than their heavy load they are as limited as anyone else aka they move 5 feet per round.

C claims that it covers all effects because he believes climbing is a sort of speed aswell.

Some of you might think this is a pretty easy question to answer. I myself assumed that my players knew they none of them had abilities to ignore ACP yet. Still he is very adamant that he is right in that dwarves are exempt from all of these effects and that I am understanding the rules so wrong that he feels his character is nerfed to the ground so he can't continue playing his character anymore.:smalleek:

First of all I want to know if I am understanding the rules wrong here. Then I can talk of my choices of dealing with the player.

PS. he went on a strange tirade where he - after reading furiously in the CRB - that ponies cant carry anyone, rangers are hopelessly bogged down and can't climb with their equipment (and a tent), no one can move. He says that my call is an amateur's call and there's no way "dwarves aren't the best at climbing and walking in mountains":smallannoyed:

[Zanos]

Rules do what they say they do. Dwarves never have their speed modified by armor weight or encumbrance. The ability does nothing else.

The maximum you can push/drag and heavy load are discrete though. You can push/drag 5x your heavy load.

[Gallowglass]

well...
first a dog sled is a vehicle. He doesn't have any dogs hooked up to it? He is pulling it (pushing it) himself, right? Where did you get 300 lbs for the dog sled for weight? I dont' see that weight in paizo.com. I actually have experience with dog sleds and they certainly don't weight 300 lbs. Maybe loaded down. But I can heft one and move it, so it must be about 100 to 150 lbs max.

But that 300lb capacity is referring to what he is carrying, not pushing.

From "encumbrance":
A character can generally push or drag along the ground as much as five times his maximum load. Favorable conditions can double these numbers, and bad circumstances can reduce them by half or more.

A dog sled on snow is certainly a favorable condition. So he can probably push a total of 3000 lbs on that sled (if he could load that much on the sled)

slow and steady refers to LAND speed. A dwarf, by default, does not have a climb speed, burrow speed or fly speed. If they pick up one of those alternate speed's some other way, that other way will tell them what their speed is. He is wrong that slow and steady gives him a 20' climb speed. It doesn't. Climbing (per the skill) and Climb speed are two different animals. Creatures with a climb speed can bypass the normal climbing skill rules because they are that good at it. Also, his encumbrance DOES affect his skill checks like climb and jump. Slow and STeady ONLY affects his base land speed, not the other things encumbrance affects.

I don't know how he is casting his sorcerer spells in that armor with that shield, I assume he is taking the arcane spell chance failure everytime he casts?

So I would say you are right about most of this. Except he can certainly move 20' even while heavily encumbered and he can totally push that sled around.

But, that being said, I don't know why you are pushing this. The rule of cool, to me, says that a dwarf pushing around a dog sled loaded with his equipment is kind of fun. Especially, when it comes into play for narrow escapes down snowy mountains. He's having fun. The other players are having fun. Encumbrance is an annoying rule best ignored as long as its not egregious and I don't see anything about this that seems egregious.

[HurinSmite]

Hello Gallowglass and thanks for the reply! First, the dog sled is listed in Advanced player's guide. If you use the Reference website it's under gear in advanced player's guide. I've heard it from one of the other players that 300 lbs seems a bit heavy for a dog sled.

What I could've make more clear is that it started with me noticing him claiming he carried his dog sled but ended with me realising he understood encumbrance effects the wrong way.

I am willing to let him have a smaller/lighter dog sled but not the size for the whole team. But I am not going to let him avoid ACP which he apparently hasn't taken into account for the first 14 sessions.



I don't know how he is casting his sorcerer spells in that armor with that shield, I assume he is taking the arcane spell chance failure everytime he casts?
He's only a lvl 1 sorcerer so he doesn't have that many spells. If the party gets surprised during the night he can cast mage armor instead of donning an armor. True strike doesn't have somatic component so arcane spell failure doesn't matter. Another spell he enjoys is from potions Cat's grace. But with his MAX DEX limit (because of encumbrance) he shouldn't have gotten any bonus from it.


So I would say you are right about most of this. Except he can certainly move 20' even while heavily encumbered and he can totally push that sled around.
I can see the case of snowy environment makes it easier to push the dog sled around. But let me get it straight. Your understanding is that if the dwarf is carrying more than 300 lbs he still has a speed of 20 feet? In this example I am not talking about the sled.

I get what you're saying with the rule of cool but in his case it's more a case of him hoarding things for every what ifs they might come across. I supports my theory of him wanting to be good at everything and have an answer to everything.

[Elkad]

Dwarves are not "never" slowed by a load.
They move the same speed at medium or heavy load.
Beyond heavy (up to 2x max), they move 5'/rnd just like anyone else.

Note that they are NOT listed as unencumbered for dragging a heavy load, but it's a reasonable assumption to make.

[Stewzors]

I think the wording of slow & steady does make it seem that as long as they can lift it they can move at normal speed but as far as I'm concerned being a Dwarf doesn't make you stronger - it just makes you more stable and able to distribute a weighted load better. Going over the heavy load limit is considered a concentrated effort and is going to slow you down - Dwarf or not.

I'd argue that while the sled is within their heavy load push/pull/drag limits they can still move at their normal speed, but once that limit is exceeded they will suffer penalties just as any other race would.

And yes any action they take will still take the ACP etc of a heavy load, is is just the base movement reduction that is ignored - using his argument about Dwarves being the best climber, does a Dwarf in chainmail with 250lb+ of gear climb as easily as a Dwarf with nothing on but climbing gear?

[HurinTheCursed]

Like most people here, I have no problem seeing a dwarf keeping his 20' land speed while pulling a 3000lb on a dog sled on ice. Beyond heavy load, it's more than reasonnable to limit to 5' like every other race.
Penalties other than decreased speed would still apply since the dwarves have no explicit exceptions for those. They have no other speed to which it applies, but if he get a climb, swim or a fly speed why not ? It's flavourful and likely don't break the game.

I find this quite a clever way to make the max out if his dwarf ability and it's a fun idea. I suppose he can keep on walking longer than the others and thus pulls them a few hours while they rest ? It can get interesting once to climb up or to reward them with a James Bond encounter while sliding down agasint fast opponents. But I wouldn't prevent him to benefit from the sled idea as long as the ground is appropriate.

[Fitz10019]

Just make sure every third NPC asks him, "where's your dog?"

Maybe some will assume the party has eaten the dog, and hold that against them.