Warlock (vigilante) optimization

[Shadowscale]

I was just curious what the build path would like like for a single classed warlock in pathfinder? Any feats or build advice at all to make it as optimal as it can be?

[Drifter S.]

Well that all depends on what you want the class to do, and what your GM will allow you to use. If you're in a paizo-content only group and taking Warlock because you saw Mystic Bolts and wanted to build around them? You're going to find that not even always doing touch attacks at 5th level can save you from the complete lack of proper damage scaling (no stat to damage, no deadly aim, no enhancement bonuses from items), or the inability to deal with multiple energy resistances. It's basically a souped-up cantrip you can full attack with. That said, what I've toyed with most (and what most people seem to theorycraft around) is going full throwing weapons to belt out as many bolts as possible, since even eating all the penalties you're hitting touch AC and will probably hit most of them. Human for Point Blank+Precise Shot at 1st level, Followed by Rapid Shot and TWF. It's unfortunate stuff like Deadly Aim and Clustered Shots won't actually do anything with Mystic Bolts as-written, and even choosing not to make touch attacks is dubious with the former at best, since the text specifically calls out Power Attack as not working.

If your group is open to 3pp content, then you might have to wait for Legendary Games to publish their vigilante book(s), or find a copy of the playtest that was floating around. There was a bunch of stuff in it that was intended to work with Mystic Bolts.

[TheIronGolem]

If your group is open to 3pp content, then you might have to wait for Legendary Games to publish their vigilante book(s), or find a copy of the playtest that was floating around. There was a bunch of stuff in it that was intended to work with Mystic Bolts.

Well, if his group is open to 3PP and you're correct in your assumption that the OP is looking to build a character around "magic blasts" as a character ability, then they've got options they can use right now. There's the Soulbolt from Ultimate Psionics, or you could use Spheres of Power and make a Destruction caster (I've been wanting to try the Blaster Armorist, personally). Both of those paths provide for scaling damage and/or extra utility.

[Kurald Galain]

I was just curious what the build path would like like for a single classed warlock in pathfinder? Any feats or build advice at all to make it as optimal as it can be?

Frankly, I would go Sorcerer with the Draconic bloodline, then throw around Snowballs or Scorching Rays. While you can't technically do it all day, in practice it doesn't take a lot of levels before you can do it during every single combat round.

[5ColouredWalker]

Multi/two-weapon fighting and pirahna strike. At higher levels, unlimited channeling shurikens. I think there's also some abilities from the class that add to damage in a way that quickly gets ridiculous.

Outside of those off the top of my head I'd have to look in detail since it's been awhile.

[Extra Anchovies]

If I recall the original playtest doc properly (Paizo only lets me download the round 2 doc), Mystic Bolt was 1d6+level damage and could not be TWFed with itself. Personally I think that's more interesting - you could TWF with bolts and a weapon of choice (getting the Channeling quality ASAP), or dip a level of Magus for spell combat.


Frankly, I would go Sorcerer with the Draconic bloodline, then throw around Snowballs or Scorching Rays. While you can't technically do it all day, in practice it doesn't take a lot of levels before you can do it during every single combat round.

The Warlock OP has in mind is this one (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/vigilante/archetypes/vigilante-archetypes---paizo-inc/warlock).

[Kurald Galain]

The Warlock OP has in mind is this one (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/vigilante/archetypes/vigilante-archetypes---paizo-inc/warlock).

Yes, so if (as shadow scale suggests) he's looking for a character that can shoot mystic bolts, then I recommend a sorcerer.

[Florian]

I was just curious what the build path would like like for a single classed warlock in pathfinder? Any feats or build advice at all to make it as optimal as it can be?

Warlocks are actually very good switch-hitters and follow the same build principles the namesake Ranger builds do.

You should not rely too much on mystic bolts. 2H weapon damage simply scales better and should be your go-to choice.

[avr]

You could sacrifice the rest of your vigilante talents with the psychometrist archetype, get a disposable goon with a necromantic implement/focus power, then use your sorc/wiz spells to buff it and become a more general necromancer. Mystic bolts obviously aren't going to be important to such a character.

[5ColouredWalker]

Warlock:
Pirhana Strike
Blade Tutor's Spirit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/blade-tutor-s-spirit) [Pirhana strike now reduces your attack bonus by 0.]
Lethal Grace Vigilante Talent.
Arcane Strike from Arcane Strike Talent

Main hand TWF Bolts (In melee) now do 1d6+(1/4 Levels)+(2/5 BAB)+(1/2 Levels)+(1/5 Levels)+Str (Technically a weapon), with off hand ones doing only marginally less, since most of the damage bonus is from levels. This only costs 1 feat in addition to the TWF chain, and that's Pirhana strike since Lethal Grace grants Weapon Finesse.


At the cost of loosing touch attacks, one can get a bunch of Chakrams and either a Blinkback Belt or the Returning Weapon talent to add Chakram damage to his melee and ranged attacks if he buys a bunch of +1 channeling chakrams, however this get's expensive quickly even if it opens Deadly Aim up to him... That said, while one looses the benefit of Lethal Grace at range, they can stack Pirhana Strike and Deadly Aim, while Blade Tutor's Spirit makes it only as costly as having one of the options active, if not less.

If you can open yourself up for Multiattack somehow, than I think you end up overtaking Power Attack builds through sheer mass of numbers, particularly since most races that can multiattack have at least 4 arms... That said, you need to play a monster for that.

[Drifter S.]

Warlock:
Pirhana Strike
Blade Tutor's Spirit [Pirhana strike now reduces your attack bonus by 0.]
Lethal Grace Vigilante Talent.
Arcane Strike from Arcane Strike Talent

Main hand TWF Bolts (In melee) now do 1d6+(1/4 Levels)+(2/5 BAB)+(1/2 Levels)+(1/5 Levels)+Str (Technically a weapon), with off hand ones doing only marginally less, since most of the damage bonus is from levels. This only costs 1 feat in addition to the TWF chain, and that's Pirhana strike since Lethal Grace grants Weapon Finesse.

(snip)

Alright hold up, Piranha Strike is Power Attack's little brother, and the text for Mystic Bolts specifically calls out Power Attack. See: "feats and abilities that apply to weapon attacks (unless they're excluded from that feat, such as with Power Attack)". At best, you're assuming that you're not actually going to not make the Mystic Bolts be a touch attack and that it qualifies, which the wording is a little sketchy on.

Lethal Grace, however, does not work with Mystic Bolts for sure. See the following text: "When using Weapon Finesse to make a melee attack using his Dexterity bonus on attack rolls and his Strength bonus on damage rolls, he also adds half his vigilante level on damage rolls." The key word there is "Strength bonus on damage rolls", which you're not going to get with Mystic Bolts.

Channeling I'm going to assume is from 3.5, so I'll let that one lie. If the OP is stuck with 1pp content then the best they can get is Conductive, which will only work once per turn no matter how many weapons they have with that ability.

[Florian]

Yes, the core problem with Bolts is the lack of any attribute-derived bonus to damage and the slow scaling of the bolt damage itself (max 1d6+5). The follow-up problem to this are critters with multiple energy resistances beyond the 10 value mark, that´re pretty much untouchable to bolts.
I see few ways to upgrade that beyond Arcane Striker, Point-Blank Shot, Hammer the Gap and Clustered Shots.

[Drifter S.]

Yes, the core problem with Bolts is the lack of any attribute-derived bonus to damage and the slow scaling of the bolt damage itself (max 1d6+5). The follow-up problem to this are critters with multiple energy resistances beyond the 10 value mark, that´re pretty much untouchable to bolts.
I see few ways to upgrade that beyond Arcane Striker, Point-Blank Shot, Hammer the Gap and Clustered Shots.

Hammer the gap should work but it's kind of a pain, and relies on never missing to get any value. Clustered Shots is specifically for Damage Reduction. If I were to rule it, I'd say it would work on energy resistances, but by the RAW it doesn't. It's really unfortunate that there's seemingly no ways to make them competitive after the first few levels, because it's an exceptionally cool ability that I hope gets expanded upon somehow.

I'd parrot off what I said in my first post about 3pp, but TheIronGolem is right. If any 3pp content is allowed, there are ways to do the energy blaster concept right now that are much easier, even if something is in the pipe specifically for the Vigilante Warlock.

[Shadowscale]

I appreciate all the replies.
From what I've been able to preen the vigilante as a warlock isn't that affective especially through the levels.
Without focusing exclusively on the blast can someone tell me how I should be optimizing the pathfinder vigilante warlock if one just wants to play one in general at all and any levels?

It just seems fun to me the whole secret caster dark magic deal.

[Drifter S.]

Personally, "secret dark magic" seems more like the Cabalist's thing, what with the witch spell list and all the... Uh, blood. Maybe that's just me though.

You're not a TERRIBLE class as the Warlock since you still have 6th level prepared casting off a versatile spell list. But you just don't have any other features to really make you stand out as a combatant, and just come across as a silly wannabe wizard with a better acid splash/ray of frost cantrip. If you wanted to, you could potentially get away with just grabbing a longbow as a human and going along the normal ranged feat path, taking the Familiar and Tattoo Chamber for versatility, and be perfectly serviceable. You would likely be more combat-effective by just playing an Eldritch Archer/Hexcrafter Magus with that route, but there's still plenty of cool things the Vigilante has to make it worthwhile if you wanted to take it anyway.

Not to sound like a broken record, but it really would help to know what resources you have available to pull from. (IE: Paizo-only, "anything on the pfsrd", "only these publishers", "case-by-case GM approved".)

[Shadowscale]

Personally, "secret dark magic" seems more like the Cabalist's thing, what with the witch spell list and all the... Uh, blood. Maybe that's just me though.

You're not a TERRIBLE class as the Warlock since you still have 6th level prepared casting off a versatile spell list. But you just don't have any other features to really make you stand out as a combatant, and just come across as a silly wannabe wizard with a better acid splash/ray of frost cantrip. If you wanted to, you could potentially get away with just grabbing a longbow as a human and going along the normal ranged feat path, taking the Familiar and Tattoo Chamber for versatility, and be perfectly serviceable. You would likely be more combat-effective by just playing an Eldritch Archer/Hexcrafter Magus with that route, but there's still plenty of cool things the Vigilante has to make it worthwhile if you wanted to take it anyway.

Not to sound like a broken record, but it really would help to know what resources you have available to pull from. (IE: Paizo-only, "anything on the pfsrd", "only these publishers", "case-by-case GM approved".)

anything on the psrd, I'm just trying to build this for fun as I love what a warlock is. They're one of my favorite 3.5 classes and I'd love to run something similar in pathfinder for society.

[Drifter S.]

If by "for society" you mean for Pathfinder Society organized play, then you're probably out of luck and probably better off with something else. You might still do alright though, because I hear PFS has a VERY low bar. The Vigilante Warlock also doesn't look like it plays anything like the 3.5e Warlock, either. I think the kineticist was supposed to be the pathfinder equivalent, but telling you to play that would basically be like telling you to put a gun to your head if you're going to play in PFS. That class is well-loved by a select few, but that's more because there's lots of 3pp dedicated to making it capable of not killing itself just to do basic things.

If you're just in a home/online group? You might be better off finding something else that can do something similar to what you want and run with that, since the fluff is (or should be) flexible. If you still want to run with Warlock? Well, whenever Legendary Games gets around to releasing their Vigilante book AND it and it gets put up on the pfsrd, you'll you have PLENTY of options (Int-to-damage, compatibility with Power Attack/Piranha Strike/Deadly aim while making touch attacks, Clustered Shots working against resistances, magic bracers to give an enhancement bonus, talents to alleviate the feat tax, trading a feat for a single extra talent, etc) to get Mystic Bolts to function.

[Shadowscale]

If by "for society" you mean for Pathfinder Society organized play, then you're probably out of luck and probably better off with something else. You might still do alright though, because I hear PFS has a VERY low bar. The Vigilante Warlock also doesn't look like it plays anything like the 3.5e Warlock, either. I think the kineticist was supposed to be the pathfinder equivalent, but telling you to play that would basically be like telling you to put a gun to your head if you're going to play in PFS. That class is well-loved by a select few, but that's more because there's lots of 3pp dedicated to making it capable of not killing itself just to do basic things.

If you're just in a home/online group? You might be better off finding something else that can do something similar to what you want and run with that, since the fluff is (or should be) flexible. If you still want to run with Warlock? Well, whenever Legendary Games gets around to releasing their Vigilante book AND it and it gets put up on the pfsrd, you'll you have PLENTY of options (Int-to-damage, compatibility with Power Attack/Piranha Strike/Deadly aim while making touch attacks, Clustered Shots working against resistances, magic bracers to give an enhancement bonus, talents to alleviate the feat tax, trading a feat for a single extra talent, etc) to get Mystic Bolts to function.

I had seriously debated the kineticist as well, but you seem to be suggesting both classes are sub par and not suited for pathfinder society play. Or any optimization really.

[Florian]

I had seriously debated the kineticist as well, but you seem to be suggesting both classes are sub par and not suited for pathfinder society play. Or any optimization really.

By design, every class that is centered around "at will" abilities is weaker than classes that use up resources.

PFS modules are pretty short (4 hours max) and don´t have overly complicated set-piece battles (it´s kid friendly), so you won´t be able to bring the one strength of an at-will class to bear, the combat endurance.

[N. Jolly]

I believe Drifter was talking about THIS (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Hrk1hl8uXVHazaiPOCvWsFUHX3PB6fQVd13tzguJTgE/edit?usp=sharing) playtest.