About Magic Initiate

[Birdwood]

Hey guys, back again with flavor questions

So, Ill be changing from 3.5 to 5e soon, and I decided I want my Fighter to be a Kord devout, so I listed Magic Initiate on his feats

My question here is: am I able to pick Divine Favor (War Domain, 1st) as his spell?
Because it is a spell in one of the allowed classes' list, and it is on the allowed spell level, but its based off a subclass

Thanks in Advance!

[Saggo]

No, because it's a spell given to the war cleric by a class feature, not a spell in the generic cleric spell list.

[Birdwood]

Yeah, thats the point

So it DOES have to be from the generic list?
Is there any official wording on this?

That spell is just too perfect fitting, I cant let it go like this :)

[8wGremlin]

Choose a class: bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, warlock, or wizard. You learn two cantrips of your choice from that class’s spell list. In addition, choose one 1st-level spell from that same list.

Unfortunately, Divine Favour is a Domain spell granted the cleric and not a generic cleric spell.
In the PHB you'll see a list of spells you can choose from.

[Gastronomie]

If I were the DM I'd bend the rules and let him take it. It's strictly inferior to Hex anyways - the only thing stopping him from taking Divine Favor is how it "isn't allowed by the rules", even though there's nothing wrong with it power-balance wise. That's really stupid.

Any reasonable DM should allow this, ignoring RAW.

[djreynolds]

You could allow him to select it as a paladin spell. I'm unsure how big of a deal it would be since they are not include in the wording of the feat.

Honestly its only good for 10 rounds (1 minute) a long rest, go ahead

[Saggo]

Yeah, thats the point

So it DOES have to be from the generic list?
Is there any official wording on this?

That spell is just too perfect fitting, I cant let it go like this :)

The point is the spell is not in the Cleric spell list at all, so it doesn't fit the criteria in the feat description.

You can look to get it houseruled, as mentioned above, it's just not how the Mage Initiate works.

[RickAllison]

The point is the spell is not in the Cleric spell list at all, so it doesn't fit the criteria in the feat description.

You can look to get it houseruled, as mentioned above, it's just not how the Mage Initiate works.

Indeed. This is a classic case where the RAW creates a rather conservative rule or one that decreases enjoyment to prevent abuse, and so a DM can choose the exceptions he does allow rather than have to ban certain combinations. Can't really think of any off the top of my head, but something like getting Command, a really good spell, with Eldritch Blast. Even that isn't really so big that I would see it as a problem, but it would be more likely to be so than Divine Favor!

[Toadkiller]

I wouldn't allow it. Cause the spell is just worse than hex and hunters mark. Henceforth in my games this spell is revised to align with them, doing radiant damage.

I'd allow the revised spell.

[Flashy]

Can't really think of any off the top of my head, but something like getting Command, a really good spell, with Eldritch Blast. Even that isn't really so big that I would see it as a problem, but it would be more likely to be so than Divine Favor!

Amusingly this specific example is already an option, since Command is a Warlock spell. You're totally right in general though.

[RickAllison]

Amusingly this specific example is already an option, since Command is a Warlock spell. You're totally right in general though.

Just rechecked it. Unless open5e.com both neglected to put Command onto their warlock spell list and put it on the patron spells of the Fiend, Command is not on the warlock spell list.

[Gastronomie]

Command is a good spell, but the especially juicy part about it is that it can be cast using level 5 slots by a Fiendlock.... bats*** insane.

[Flashy]

Just rechecked it. Unless open5e.com both neglected to put Command onto their warlock spell list and put it on the patron spells of the Fiend, Command is not on the warlock spell list.

You are quite right. Apparently I misread the database I had been using.

[Birdwood]

Well, it does make sense that its in the "domain spell list", as opposed to "class spell list"

It is quite limiting though

And Im aware that its not an optimal choice, but it would be nice for a Kord Fighter to invoke the gods blessing to beat the lights out of the enemy :p

Oh well, I think I can live choosing something else, like Command

[Grod_The_Giant]

Well, it does make sense that its in the "domain spell list", as opposed to "class spell list"

It is quite limiting though

And Im aware that its not an optimal choice, but it would be nice for a Kord Fighter to invoke the gods blessing to beat the lights out of the enemy :p

Oh well, I think I can live choosing something else, like Command
Bless is a valid choice, and perhaps even more fitting-- you're swinging harder, as opposed to charging your weapon with holy light.

[Arial Black]

Hunter's Mark is another good 1st level spell that cannot legally by acquired with Magic Initiate, because it is not on any of the spell lists of the classes specified in the feat.

[Arkhios]

You could allow him to select it as a paladin spell. I'm unsure how big of a deal it would be since they are not include in the wording of the feat.

Honestly its only good for 10 rounds (1 minute) a long rest, go ahead

Strictly by RAW magic initiate couldn't give spells from paladin or ranger lists because neither of these classes have cantrips.
You can't just opt to not take a feature from a feat.

I don't quite agree with you guys saying divine favor is worse than hex/hunter's mark, because both of those only apply to one creature at a time, while divine favor applies to all of your attacks. No need to spend valuable bonus actions to swap target etc.

The only downside is vanishingly small. An average ~1 point less damage. "OMFG!"

[Gastronomie]

Strictly by RAW magic initiate couldn't give spells from paladin or ranger lists because neither of these classes have cantrips.
You can't just opt to not take a feature from a feat.

I don't quite agree with you guys saying divine favor is worse than hex/hunter's mark, because both of those only apply to one creature at a time, while divine favor applies to all of your attacks. No need to spend valuable bonus actions to swap target etc.

The only downside is vanishingly small. An average ~1 point less damage. "OMFG!"Completely forgot the "no bonus action required to change target" part. Damn, you're right.

Well, the character is a Fighter, so depending on his fighting style, he might not use his Bonus Action often. But you are right that Divine Favor could be a better choice in certain situations and certain builds.

[Birdwood]

Well, I can only see the benefit of DF on a lv 20 Fighter and his 8 attacks

It would be so beautiful...

And about homebrewing it, I agree that there wouldnt be any problem w this specific spell
But given that we have some players that are prone to abuse certain things, and that it wouldnt be fair to allow some brewing for one player and not all, as the SubDM for the table I generally avoid as much brewing as possible to avoid headaches

[Vogonjeltz]

If I were the DM I'd bend the rules and let him take it. It's strictly inferior to Hex anyways - the only thing stopping him from taking Divine Favor is how it "isn't allowed by the rules", even though there's nothing wrong with it power-balance wise. That's really stupid.

Any reasonable DM should allow this, ignoring RAW.

Conversely "Any reasonable DM" might look at the fact that the spell is unique to Paladin and recognize that there's a balance reason neither Clerics nor Druids (whose key ability score is wisdom) have baseline access to damage dice adding spells at 1st level.

I might allow it myself, but that doesn't convey to all other DMs.

If the Fighter wants that flavor of spell, Hex is available. Of course that also requires a free hand for the material component. So it's a tad more unwieldy.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Conversely "Any reasonable DM" might look at the fact that the spell is unique to Paladin and recognize that there's a balance reason neither Clerics nor Druids (whose key ability score is wisdom) have baseline access to damage dice adding spells at 1st level.
Is there, though? Is there really?

[gfishfunk]

Well, it does make sense that its in the "domain spell list", as opposed to "class spell list"

It is quite limiting though

And Im aware that its not an optimal choice, but it would be nice for a Kord Fighter to invoke the gods blessing to beat the lights out of the enemy :p

Oh well, I think I can live choosing something else, like Command

Alternatively, take the spell from Magic Initiate and pull it off the Paladin list. You will not get any cantrips that way, though. If the main idea is to get that specific spell, you can still get it.

[RickAllison]

Is there, though? Is there really?

It could also be that it doesn't make sense for Druids (radiant damage doesn't occur anywhere in nature) and that clerics are... They get almost nothing from it! It's an ability to increases in power with more attacks and they get only one. It is telling that the only clerics to get the spell are also the ones to get an ability that increases their number of attacks.

[Birdwood]

Alternatively, take the spell from Magic Initiate and pull it off the Paladin list. You will not get any cantrips that way, though. If the main idea is to get that specific spell, you can still get it.

yeah, some have pointed out that I could do that
but since I wanna avoid homebrewing because of some players in the group who lack common sense, I prefer to avoid that altogether

Ill just stick to Bless or Command; Ive got some time to decide that yet

[eastmabl]

Alternatively, take the spell from Magic Initiate and pull it off the Paladin list. You will not get any cantrips that way, though. If the main idea is to get that specific spell, you can still get it.

I'm fairly sure that you can't do this via RAW. I hesitate only because I'm AFB.

[Rysto]

I'm fairly sure that you can't do this via RAW. I hesitate only because I'm AFB.

You're correct. RAW you have to pick from a full caster. I suspect that's mostly because only the full casters have cantrips on their spell list rather than it being an attempt at balance.

[Ruslan]

Hey guys, back again with flavor questions

So, Ill be changing from 3.5 to 5e soon, and I decided I want my Fighter to be a Kord devout
Play a Cleric with the War domain. Ability scores: Str -> Con -> Wis. Use your spell slots mostly on in-combat spells. Introduce yourself as "a Fighter, Kord Devout".

[Specter]

Just to remind guys out there, Divine Favor does less damage thanHex but is much better against many enemies, since you don't need to waste bonus actions to trade between targets.

I'd also recommend Bless, because it fits a fighting blessing and is good forever. For cantrips, Sacred Flame and Guidance (Kord be with you).

[Vogonjeltz]

Is there, though? Is there really?

Yes, per the DMG page 283:

"If a spell is so good that a caster would want to use it all the time, it might be too powerful for its level."
"Make sure the spell fits with the identity of the class. Wizards and sorcerers don't typically have access to healing spells, for example, and adding a healing spell to the wizard class list would step on the cleric's turf."

A) The spell is good enough that the character would surely use it all the time.
B) It is not natively on the Cleric spell list precisely because it does something unusual for the Cleric, additional damage on attacks.

This is the definition of imbalancing.

If the character wants to get Paladin spells, let them take Paladin levels or become a War Domain Cleric.

My primary point to Gastronomie was that reasonable people can have viewpoints that are at odds with each other. His statement made it seem that anyone who held the opposing viewpoint was unreasonable.

[Rysto]

A) The spell is good enough that the character would surely use it all the time.

It's really not, due to the concentration requirement. +2.5 damage to your one attack per round isn't really all that interesting to a Cleric, compared to Bless or Spirit Guardians.

[RickAllison]

It's really not, due to the concentration requirement. +2.5 damage to your one attack per round isn't really all that interesting to a Cleric, compared to Bless or Spirit Guardians.

Especially when Bless applies to people who can use it even better!

[Pex]

As it happens I am playing a Paladin and never cast Divine Favor. If I'm going to use a spell slot for damage I'd rather save it for a Smite where it would count. Using great weapon style I'm already doing decent enough damage I don't need the extra d4. The 1st level spells I do cast somewhat regularly when not smiting is Bless with or without the cleric also casting it or Shield Of Faith when I know I'm going to be target.

[RickAllison]

As it happens I am playing a Paladin and never cast Divine Favor. If I'm going to use a spell slot for damage I'd rather save it for a Smite where it would count. Using great weapon style I'm already doing decent enough damage I don't need the extra d4. The 1st level spells I do cast somewhat regularly when not smiting is Bless with or without the cleric also casting it or Shield Of Faith when I know I'm going to be target.

True, I feel that it is best used when the Paladin needs sustained DPR (which is an oddity for the nova-prone paladin...).

[Gastronomie]

My primary point to Gastronomie was that reasonable people can have viewpoints that are at odds with each other. His statement made it seem that anyone who held the opposing viewpoint was unreasonable.Sorry about that, when I wrote that I had completely forgotten how Divine Favor isn't strictly inferior to Hex.

But while I no longer think "...Any reasonable DM", my opinion has not changed that there's not a single problem in permitting it.

[Vogonjeltz]

It's really not, due to the concentration requirement. +2.5 damage to your one attack per round isn't really all that interesting to a Cleric, compared to Bless or Spirit Guardians.

No but a Cleric isn't going to take Magic initiate for that, the Fighter who gets 4 attacks and has proficiency in constitution saving throws (i.e. Concentration) most certainly will.

[Gastronomie]

No but a Cleric isn't going to take Magic initiate for that, the Fighter who gets 4 attacks and has proficiency in constitution saving throws (i.e. Concentration) most certainly will.Eh, I'd still take Hex over it in most situations.

Note how Hex also helps you grapple.

(This is sorta getting off-topic and I know, but my point is that Divine Favor honestly isn't that much of a problem. Also, most characters don't make it to level 11 or higher, from where Divine Favor/Hex/Hunter's Mark/whatever gets really juicy for Fighters, in the first place.)

[RickAllison]

No but a Cleric isn't going to take Magic initiate for that, the Fighter who gets 4 attacks and has proficiency in constitution saving throws (i.e. Concentration) most certainly will.

Still, we can look at it from a DPR standpoint and it is inferior barring situations with low AC. Bless gives .125*(sum DPR of user and two other PCs who rely on attack rolls), which is awesome. If the fighter doesn't have any outside considerations (things like GWM), he will generally need to be hitting on a 10 to be making up for the increased expected value from Bless's boost without adding in the benefit to others.

[R.Shackleford]

Still, we can look at it from a DPR standpoint and it is inferior barring situations with low AC. Bless gives .125*(sum DPR of user and two other PCs who rely on attack rolls), which is awesome. If the fighter doesn't have any outside considerations (things like GWM), he will generally need to be hitting on a 10 to be making up for the increased expected value from Bless's boost without adding in the benefit to others.

In all honesty, if I'm picking up Magic Initiate on a Fighter, I'm not going to worry about DPR.

My class has that covered, I don't need to deal with that. Nah, I'm looking at some sort of debuff/buff/utility that helps me do something I couldn't already do.

Healing Word comes to mind if I'm going cleric (which really isn't something I would do with MI).

The druid has much better cantrips and 1st Level spells for the fighter (or anyone Wis based) to take.

Boosting DPR is a waste of a feat, especially when you can do it 1/LR.

[RickAllison]

In all honesty, if I'm picking up Magic Initiate on a Fighter, I'm not going to worry about DPR.

My class has that covered, I don't need to deal with that. Nah, I'm looking at some sort of debuff/buff/utility that helps me do something I couldn't already do.

Healing Word comes to mind if I'm going cleric (which really isn't something I would do with MI).

The druid has much better cantrips and 1st Level spells for the fighter (or anyone Wis based) to take.

Boosting DPR is a waste of a feat, especially when you can do it 1/LR.

Yeah, but that comment was in a response to taking that with Divine Favor, so DPR was all I could talk about it with.

[Arkhios]

As I'm playing the S&B dual wielding Paladin, I cast Divine Favor occasionally to spread more damage evenly.

It's almost as if I had Two-Weapon Fighting Style :) (2d4 = ~5 ~ ability score 20)

[RSP]

Hex still beats Divine Favor the majority of the time if you're looking for more damage. The 1 hour duration and the fact that you're usually focus-firing on one creature anyway kind of makes Hex the winner over the 1 min of less damage to any creature DF. Really DF only beats Hex if damage type matters.

It matters less for a fighter selecting it with Magic Initiate, but Hex also works on any attack, including spell attacks; DF and Hunter's Mark only work on weapon attacks.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Yes, per the DMG page 283:

"If a spell is so good that a caster would want to use it all the time, it might be too powerful for its level."
"Make sure the spell fits with the identity of the class. Wizards and sorcerers don't typically have access to healing spells, for example, and adding a healing spell to the wizard class list would step on the cleric's turf."

A) The spell is good enough that the character would surely use it all the time.
B) It is not natively on the Cleric spell list precisely because it does something unusual for the Cleric, additional damage on attacks.

This is the definition of imbalancing.

If the character wants to get Paladin spells, let them take Paladin levels or become a War Domain Cleric.

My primary point to Gastronomie was that reasonable people can have viewpoints that are at odds with each other. His statement made it seem that anyone who held the opposing viewpoint was unreasonable.
Well, let's see

It's a fine effect, but not terribly strong, and it competes for your concentration with things like Bless and Banishment. It's also about on par, or even inferior to, things like Hex
About half of all clerics get to add radiant damage to their weapon attacks as a class feature, and almost all of their offensive spells are about radiant damage, so I can't say "deal radiant damage with weapon attacks" is out of character.

So... yeah, I can't say as it fits either description.