Steel Predators and Rusting Grasp

[ksbsnowowl]

So I'm running Lord of the Iron Fortress, which features Steel Predators (Fiend Folio) quite a bit. Steel Predators are outsiders from the plane of Acheron. Aside from the fluff paragraph stating they 'resemble iron-muscled great cats,' nothing in its entry indicates that it is actually made of ferrous metal. Also, it is an outsider, not a construct.

Would the Rusting Grasp spell, or the attack of a Rust Monster, have any special effect on them?

I do have a Druid in the party, so the question is quite relevant.


...

Against a ferrous creature, rusting grasp instantaneously deals 3d6 points of damage +1 per caster level (maximum +15) per successful attack. The spell lasts for 1 round per level, and you can make one melee touch attack per round.

[Inevitability]

If neither LotIF nor the Fiend Folio says anything about it, ask your DM.

Note that something doesn't have to be a construct to be iron, though.

[Gallowglass]

He is the DM.

When the rules are silent or unclear, I feel that the important question for you to ask yourself is this:

If the druid tries to use rusting grasp on the monster, is it cooler if it works or cooler if it doesn't work?

Also, the picture of the thing from fiend folio sure looks like rusting grasp should work to me.

https://s13.postimg.org/qr46c1dav/steel_predator.png

Hims mommy's widdle nubbins, yes he is! YES he IS!

[trikkydik]

As a DM my highest priority is getting PC's to interact with the environment and figure out ways to beat every challenge.

If I threw out a metallic monster and a PC used rusting grasp, I would get so excited and happy, that the rusting grasp would work flawlessly or better.

That's my ultimate point here, anything that gets my PC's using the environment to their advantage is a success in my book.

I refuse to tell my players "NO" simply because the book says so.

And also, thank you for posting this, gave me some good ideas.

[ksbsnowowl]

Also, the picture of the thing from fiend folio sure looks like rusting grasp should work to me.
And see, I look at that photo and think it wouldn't work. See the fleshy webbing under the dorsal spines? It's obviously an organic creature (reinforced by it not being a construct).

If an organic creature with metallic scales/plates is subject to Rusting Grasp, why wouldn't a Steel Dragon (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040328a) be subject to rusting grasp?

There will be plenty of opportunity for Rusting Grasp to be useful in this adventure. They will face off against several Iron Golems that the Druid and his Bear will tear up with Rusting Grasp.

[LTwerewolf]

Personally I would treat it as a metal outer carapace, which the rusting grasp spell could affect to put its ac into the dumpster.

[ksbsnowowl]

Personally I would treat it as a metal outer carapace, which the rusting grasp spell could affect to put its ac into the dumpster.

There are monsters that function this way. The Blood Golem of Hextor, from the exact same book as the Steel Predator, has this special quality:


Rust Vulnerability: A blood golem’s armor is vulnerable to rust attacks, such as from a rust monster or the rusting grasp spell. If its armor is destroyed in this manner, the golem’s AC drops and it makes slam attacks instead of flail attacks. Once its armor is gone, the golem loses its blood reservoir, and it loses hit points to blood leakage at the rate of 10 hit points per day instead of 5 per day.

A monster in the same book has rules for if its armor is destroyed by rusting attacks... but the Steel Predator doesn't.

I can see that it appears there is no official answer, and it's just going to come down to DM judgement.

[Gallowglass]

And see, I look at that photo and think it wouldn't work. See the fleshy webbing under the dorsal spines? It's obviously an organic creature (reinforced by it not being a construct).

If an organic creature with metallic scales/plates is subject to Rusting Grasp, why wouldn't a Steel Dragon (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040328a) be subject to rusting grasp?

There will be plenty of opportunity for Rusting Grasp to be useful in this adventure. They will face off against several Iron Golems that the Druid and his Bear will tear up with Rusting Grasp.

Because "Steel" in Steel dragon refers to the color of steel, not that the scales are made out of steel. A bronze dragon does not have scales made out of bronze, a gold dragon does not have scales made out of gold.

Now, if in your world, you rule that a steel dragon's scales are actually steel, then rusting grasp SHOULD affect a steel dragon. A creature with steel scales/plates, is not wearing armor, that's its skin you are rusting up.

[LTwerewolf]

I can see that it appears there is no official answer, and it's just going to come down to DM judgement.

If you're looking for RAW, rusting grasp does nothing to the creature.

[ksbsnowowl]

Because "Steel" in Steel dragon refers to the color of steel, not that the scales are made out of steel.
And nothing in the Steel Predator's description leads me to believe it is anything different than the above. It has metallic-colored scales/plates.

To argue the other side as Devil's Advocate, however, from the same adventure we have Bladelings (also found in MM2), which have this special quality:

Immunities (Ex): A bladeling takes no damage from acid, and is immune to rust attacks despite its metallic hide.

Another organic outsider with a metallic hide, from the same plane (Acheron), which isn't affected by rust attacks (though it does specify it explicitly, where the Steel Predator does not).

[awa]

rusting grasp should do something because if it doesn't you are basically telling your players don't try things just walk up an hit it till whoever has the bigger numbers wins.

If you do decide that rusting grasp wont work you should decide clearly why it doesn't and make that clear to the players, if you decide it just has steel color scales they should know this as soon as they interact with it and when they do finally fight something actually made of metal that should be clear as well

edit
the blood golem lists rust vulnerability as a specific trait because it has additional effects beyond just damage and ac loss

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[trikkydik]

rusting grasp should do something because if it doesn't you are basically telling your players don't try things just walk up an hit it till whoever has the bigger numbers wins.

If you do decide that rusting grasp wont work you should decide clearly why it doesn't and make that clear to the players, if you decide it just has steel color scales they should know this as soon as they interact with it and when they do finally fight something actually made of metal that should be clear as well

100% agreed. I feel like there are 2 major types of D&D players/DM's

Those that view the books as absolute truth, regardless of how stupid a rule may be. And those that read the books as 'guidelines."

I would NEVER play in a campaign with people who view the books as absolute. It becomes an illogical, mundane, numbers game at that point.

If you're going to leave imagination out of DnD then just play video games instead.

[Zanos]

FWIW, I don't think it's game breaking to let a druid do 3d6+1 per caster level with a 4th level spell slot and a touch attack, and/or reducing the creatures armor class by 1d6.

That's pretty awful, honestly.

I would say that it works on them because it also mentions their diet consists primarily of metal, so presumably they're composed at least partial of it.