i play with a bunch of powergamers. we use AL rules. Show me your best

[krunchyfrogg]

I'm looking for something to blow away the rest of my party. AL rules, starting level 1. I hope to have the character online by level 5, maybe 7 the latest. the earlier the better.

give me your best.

you cant assume any specific magic items.

[busterswd]

V Human Moon Druid. Suffer through a middling level 1, grab Warcaster or Resilient (Con) as your feat.

Wildshape Brown Bear and rip everything apart from Level 2-4. Every level thereafter is you maximizing your robust spell list. Examples:

-Spam Goodberry on your remaining spell slots right before you finish a Long Rest. Free food, 10 HP of healing per cast, ability for anyone in the party to bring up downed party members (depends on DM, but generally accepted).

-Conjure Animals from Level 5-9, or basically on things that don't have mundane weapon resistance. Also useful for conjuring 8 Giant Owls for transportation.

-Use EE as your 1 supplement to take advantage of Erupting Earth (Druid Fireball).

-Take advantage of your variety of useful crowd control spells; you have some very nice low level options. Entangle, Hold Person, Polymorph, etc.

Druids have a spell for basically any situation you can think of, as well as the ability to swap spells out.




Alternately, a Bardlock (2 Warlock/X Bard). The big choice is whether to dip in Warlock right away (party needs DPS), or to wait until you hit Lore Bard 5/6 (party needs support/utility). Eldritch Blast + Agonizing is simple and effective damage, and the Bard spell list is capable of just about anything, especially with Magical Secrets. Strongly consider Counterspell as one of your secrets, as Jack of All Trades synergizies with it.

[Dalebert]

What are you looking for? Tanks? Spellcasters?

SOme good combos:

Half-orc Fighter 3 (champion) / Paladin x for lots of crits and crazy crit damage with smites for tankiness plus crazy burst damage.

Moon druid / barbarian for being crazy tough tank but not as great for dmg output (still decent).

Warlock 2 / Sorc x for being able to create a bunch of extra spell slots while everyone else is long-resting. Twin Hex and Twin some other single-target damge with draconic energy type cha bonus to damage for low-resource hard-hitting cantrip dmg.

Bladesinger 2 / Swashbuckler x for a crazy mobile rogue who hits hard and can stand his ground when needed. Take warcaster. Eventually consider Bladesinger 6 for two attacks. Use your owl familiar to get advantage on one attack every round for even easier landing of sneak attack. Use Haste to ready an attack and land another sneak attack on another character's turn.

[Foxhound438]

the simplest of the simple is either a GWM barbarian or a sharpshooter battlemaster fighter. Barb gets free advantage, while fighter gets +2 to hit static and precision attack; all of those are solid ways to counteract the -5 to hit. Later they would each take polearm master and crossbow expert, respectively.

[krunchyfrogg]

Wow, some awesome ideas here. Keep em comin.

How would you go about assignnig levels to that 1/2 orc paladin/fighter?

Pal 6 -> fighter 3 -> pal X?

[Belac93]

Start as fighter 2, then then draconic sorcerer 3, paladin 2, and then the rest of your levels in draconic sorcerer. Be a variant human with either warcaster, tough, or heavy armour master.

Have ability scores 16 Charisma, 16 Strength, 14 Constitution, Wisdom 10, everything else 8.

Fighter 2 gets you action surge and Constitution save proficiency, along with the dueling fighting style. Be a sword and board warrior.

Then paladin 2 gives smite, limited healing, and the defense fighting style.

Draconic sorcerer gets you greenflame and booming blade, and really comes online at level 3, where you get twinned and quickened spells. You can then twin booming blade (and greenflame blade, depending on how they interpret the rules). You can also smite with each twin, and action surge lets you twin the spells twice. So you get to attack 4 times, each for 4d8+3 damage, and 2d8 damage if the opponent moves (using 4 1st level spell slots, and expending 2 sorcery points).

In addition, once you get to level 4 draconic sorcerer, you can spend an extra 2 sorcery points to attack one more time as a quickened spell, and if you weren't allowed to before, this can be a greenflame blade.

And then, once you get to get to level 6 draconic sorcerer, you get to add your charisma modifier to your primary and secondary damage for greenflame blade.

So, level 10 total (I know you wanted it online by level 7, which it does, I just wanted to point out the benefits of going to level 10), you get 5 attacks, and 3 can deal 6d8+7 damage, with secondary 1d8+8 damage, and the other 2 deal 5d8 instead of 6d8.

At level 11, all these are an extra d8.


Bladesinger can rocket to ridiculous AC, and even more if you can find the points to be a Monk 1.

If you are a Life Cleric 1/Druid 1, you can heal 40 hit points with each casting of goodberry (240 by level 3, if you expend all your spell slots). It takes time, of course, but it's a ton of health.

A Tome Warlock using Shillelagh and Greenflame blade is extremely SAD, with needing only a few points in dexterity and constitution (not even if you go a level of fighter, or take a feat).

Variant Human Rogue with magic initiate (druid) for Magic Stone can get by without needing Dexterity at all.

[Naanomi]

Most things that really feel icky don't come online until high level... Here are a few AL builds that ended up feeling very strong at the table at least at some point along the way:
-1/2 Orc Assassin 3/Barbarian 17
-V human Fighter 1/Swashbuckler 19 w/strength and shield mastery
-battlemaster 20 w/sharpshooter/crossbow mastery
-Necromancer 9/Warlock 11 <-- probably the most overpowered I've seen at AL by the end

[Lollerabe]

I'd say EK 7/ abju wiz 13 is super solid, go SB with duelist and grab war caster - great ac and overall crazy hard to kill while still dealing good damage. Although pre lvl 7 it's just a SB EK which is.. Kind of boring.
The fighter/pala combo really isn't all that great, a lot of overlaps in features and to much delay in features. A lvl 7 pala is way better than a fighter 2/pala 5 IMO.
For something that starts awesome and remains one of the best chars I've seen - Vhuman (polearm master) fighter 1/ fiend blade lock X. It's fun, it's crazy powerful and every single lvl offers something awesome

[Garresh]

Run whatever race you want for this.

Open with Sorc 1/Paladin X

Take protection fighting style, and play as a completely unarmored sword and board dex paladin with 18 AC by level 2, in addition to having the Shield spell on tap. Between your AC, protection style, and the frostbolt and frostbite cantrips which lower speed by 10 and grant disadvantage to one attack, you can run around the battlefield protecting everyone despite being almost naked. Booming blade for even more lockdown, in addition to lightning lure so you can keep dragging enemies away from allies. Then you have heals and auras too. You have to have 12 con for multiclass unfortunately, but draconic resilience offsets it a bit at level 1 so you wont be too terribly squishy.

Feats are entirely up to you. Sentinel is nice, but ultimately conflicts with protection so eh. Shield Mastery is excellent, as is the Dex based parry feat(forgot the name). You're pretty MAD though so dont go too crazy.

[R.Shackleford]

AL rules?

So I can bring a Shadowrun or Exalted character? One of the last times I went to AL we played Exalted.

[PeteNutButter]

All I do is play OP AL characters. Most of the goodies are covered above. My favorite is nova builds so go paladin 2/sorc x and smite for days and quicken spells.

Remember you can freely change your character up to level 5. If it's a group of power gamers make sure you are optimized for a good character levels 1-4. Then swap to whatever you stick with to "lock in" at level 5.

[RulesJD]

Depends if you're playing Hardcover adventurers, or modules.

Modules = Nova builds are supreme due to lack of attrition gameplay, so short-rest and long-rest abilities are mostly equivalent.

Hardcover = Short-rest builds starting becoming better due to more attrition.

[Specter]

Magic Initiate can make a difference from level 1. Life Cleric with Goodberry can do great healing spamming. Rogue with Booming Blade can optimize damage. Going Rogue, after 3 Assassin levels grab two fighter levels for Fighting Style and Action Surge. Sneak + Booming + Assassinate + Dueling + Dex is a lot of damage, especially on surprise. If you miss on that surprise round, Action Surge.

What are the other members' roles?

[RulesJD]

Magic Initiate can make a difference from level 1. Life Cleric with Goodberry can do great healing spamming. Rogue with Booming Blade can optimize damage. Going Rogue, after 3 Assassin levels grab two fighter levels for Fighting Style and Action Surge. Sneak + Booming + Assassinate + Dueling + Dex is a lot of damage, especially on surprise. If you miss on that surprise round, Action Surge.

What are the other members' roles?

Absolute do not do this. AL almost never allows for players to have a surprise round. Much better off going Swashbuckler or Arcane Trickster as a Rogue.

[Oramac]

I'm looking for something to blow away the rest of my party.

A rather vague goal. Blow away how? Damage? Control? AOE? Social?

In any case, for general badassery I'd recommend the Tempest Sorcerer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?493427-Tempest-Sorcerer-Tank&p=20954743#post20954743).

[Specter]

Absolute do not do this. AL almost never allows for players to have a surprise round. Much better off going Swashbuckler or Arcane Trickster as a Rogue.

Really? Hm... then go Arcane Trickster, at least you get some good stuff like Sleep.

[Dalebert]

AL almost never allows for players to have a surprise round.

How do you figure? Getting a surprise round is mostly about whether you're willing to work for it. Go around being extra cautious. Avoid thunder spells. Scout ahead stealthy or use Pass w/o Trace.

[Biggstick]

Fighter 1 // Valor Bard 19. The build takes off once you're level 7, but is fun throughout.

For total optimization, go Human Variant with Sharpshooter. Start Fighter for the Archery fighting style and then go Valor Bard. Start with Dex 16 and Cha at either 14 or 16. You don't really need Cha for this build, as you're focusing on spells that don't require a DC (Examples include Comprehend Languages, Healing Word, Lesser and Greater Restoration, Freedom of Movement, as well as the good amount of rituals available to you). Use your level 10 Bard (Level 11 PC) stolen spells on the Ranger spell Swift Quiver and any other utility spell you like (Fly or Haste are potential options, but really anything your party needs will work great). You'll be one level behind a full spell caster, but you're a primary martial class who's utilizing Sharpshooter with a maxed out Dex and has a ton of great support capabilities.

Personally I'm going this build and started with Inspiring Leader first. The temporary hp for the party on short rest cooldown, plus Second Wind, plus Song of Rest, the occasional Healing Word, and the status maintenance you provide is usually more then enough as a support for yourself and for a party. And you're no slouch in damage with your Sharpshooter potential.

Alternatively, if you wanted to play a competent melee support, you could go Life Cleric 1 // Valor Bard 19. Utilize Str instead of Dex, and make use of the Shield Master feat and Athletics Expertise. You'll have access to Bless, full spell caster progression, two attacks a turn (at PC level 7), and some pretty awesome healing capabilities.

[RulesJD]

How do you figure? Getting a surprise round is mostly about whether you're willing to work for it. Go around being extra cautious. Avoid thunder spells. Scout ahead stealthy or use Pass w/o Trace.

Because PwT isn't Invisibility and most modules are written in a way that it's impossible to sneak up on the target, combat simply starts happening.

[Klorox]

V human fighter. Archery fighting style

Level 1: 16 DEX crossbow master feat. You get 2 attacks at range, 1d6 +3 each. +7 to hit.

Level 3: Battlemaster for more control, eldritch knight for more nifty little options.

Level 4: sharpshootrr feat. Now you do 1d6 +13 (x2). +2 to hit.

Level 5: 1d6 +13 (x3). +3 to hit.

Level 6: bump dex to 18. 1d6 +14 (x3). +4 to hit.

Level 8: bump DEX to 20. 1d6 +15 (x3). +5 to hit.

[DivisibleByZero]

I'll say the same thing I always say in this situation:

Half elf, Urban Bounty Hunter background (SCAG)
Str 13, Dex 16 (15+1), Con 14 (13+1) Int 8, Wis 9, Cha 16 (14+2)
Pally 2 / Dragon Sorc X
You can melee with respectable AC and HP (using Booming/Greenflame/Divine Smite), you can be the trapsmith, you can be the party face, you have 6 trained skills so you can fill in as a skillmonkey if you want to, you can heal, you are primarily an arcane caster (only losing 1 level worth of slots and learning spells 2 levels later), and you have metamagic.

He's the Swiss Army Build of 5e.

[Klorox]

I'll say the same thing I always say in this situation:

Half elf, Urban Bounty Hunter background (SCAG)
Str 13, Dex 16 (15+1), Con 14 (13+1) Int 8, Wis 9, Cha 16 (14+2)
Pally 2 / Dragon Sorc X
You can melee with respectable AC and HP (using Booming/Greenflame/Divine Smite), you can be the trapsmith, you can be the party face, you have 6 trained skills so you can fill in as a skillmonkey if you want to, you can heal, you are primarily an arcane caster (only losing 1 level worth of slots and learning spells 2 levels later), and you have metamagic.

He's the Swiss Army Build of 5e.
I kind of like it!

What's the urban bounty hunter give you?

Would you consider 6 levels of paladin just because it's so freaking good?

[DivisibleByZero]

I kind of like it!

What's the urban bounty hunter give you?

Would you consider 6 levels of paladin just because it's so freaking good?

UBH is basically Criminal+, but you hunt the criminals.
6 pally would be fine for a home game (personally I think 2 is plenty), but for an AL game, which tends to usually not go as high, I don't think I would.
But that's just me.

[PeteNutButter]

I'll say the same thing I always say in this situation:

Half elf, Urban Bounty Hunter background (SCAG)
Str 13, Dex 16 (15+1), Con 14 (13+1) Int 8, Wis 9, Cha 16 (14+2)
Pally 2 / Dragon Sorc X
You can melee with respectable AC and HP (using Booming/Greenflame/Divine Smite), you can be the trapsmith, you can be the party face, you have 6 trained skills so you can fill in as a skillmonkey if you want to, you can heal, you are primarily an arcane caster (only losing 1 level worth of slots and learning spells 2 levels later), and you have metamagic.

He's the Swiss Army Build of 5e.

I went for str build over dex, since the less MAD allowed me to start variant human for a free feat.

[Specter]

I'll say the same thing I always say in this situation:

Half elf, Urban Bounty Hunter background (SCAG)
Str 13, Dex 16 (15+1), Con 14 (13+1) Int 8, Wis 9, Cha 16 (14+2)
Pally 2 / Dragon Sorc X
You can melee with respectable AC and HP (using Booming/Greenflame/Divine Smite), you can be the trapsmith, you can be the party face, you have 6 trained skills so you can fill in as a skillmonkey if you want to, you can heal, you are primarily an arcane caster (only losing 1 level worth of slots and learning spells 2 levels later), and you have metamagic.

He's the Swiss Army Build of 5e.

Honestly, that's not optimal, that's generic.

[DivisibleByZero]

Honestly, that's not optimal, that's generic.

....says the guy who suggested Assassin 3, and then changed it to a generic AT.

[Specter]

....says the guy who suggested Assassin 3, and then changed it to a generic AT.

Assassin with surprise, Action Surge and whatnot was optimal for single-target, first-round damage (there's a whole guide on that btw), not a mixed bag of tricks. Optimal has to be optimal for a purpose, not 'I can do a lot of stuff ok'.

[DivisibleByZero]

Assassin with surprise, Action Surge and whatnot was optimal for single-target, first-round damage (there's a whole guide on that btw), not a mixed bag of tricks. Optimal has to be optimal for a purpose, not 'I can do a lot of stuff ok'.

He never asked for optimal. He asked for our best.
The pal2/sorc is, imo, the best build available in 5e at the moment. And it's AL legal. And it doesn't require some setup which will likely not happen in an AL game to make it work.

That yours does is why it isn't optimal, and it's also why you changed it.
And 18 sorc levels is better than "OK" as a caster. He's a fantastic controller/blaster. He just happens to be pretty good at a lot of other stuff as well. And Twinned Booming Blade with a Quickened Greenflame Blade, all with potential Divine Smites, makes him better than "OK" at melee as well.
I'm just saying that your calling me out was a bit of the pot calling the kettle black.

[Specter]

He never asked for optimal. He asked for our best.
The pal2/sorc is, imo, the best build available in 5e at the moment. And it's AL legal. And it doesn't require some setup which will likely not happen in an AL game to make it work.

That yours does is why it isn't optimal, and it's also why you changed it.
And 18 sorc levels is better than "OK" as a caster. He's a fantastic controller/blaster. He just happens to be pretty good at a lot of other stuff as well. And Twinned Booming Blade with a Quickened Greenflame Blade, all with potential Divine Smites, makes him better than "OK" at melee as well.
I'm just saying that your calling me out was a bit of the pot calling the kettle black.

That is of course assuming you don't get a surprise round in AL (I don't know because I haven't played AL). In that case, we have to make up for that surprise round with Booming Blade, at least, so AT comes in. Not as good, of course, but if my first choice isn't available let's see what else is. Didn't mean to know what's the "best" route, just floating an idea.

That's not to say there aren't contradictions in your build as well. To be good at the Criminal stuff you need DEX, and with DEX you don't get a good AC (even less than Mage Armor). Unless you have a shield, but then you'd need to pick War Caster as a feat to have a smiting weapon and the shield, and your first ASI comes at level 6. And even if going DEX, you'd still need 13STR to multiclass Paladin. So the build needs STR, DEX, CON and CHA, along with a feat to happen.

[DivisibleByZero]

You don't know what he wants. Neither do I. You don't know the game he's playing in, you've stated as much. You clearly haven't read my suggestion, as none of what you just cited as issues are actually issues at all.

And your claim of gaining his first ASI at 6, when your own suggestion doesn't get one until 6 at the earliest, is once again the pot and the kettle.

OK, I'll spell this out for you.

-- Half elf (+2Cha, +1 to two abilities, 2 skills of choice)
-- Urban Bounty Hunter background (thieves' tools and one other tool/instument) a contact network, choose two of deception, insight, persuasion, stealth)
-- Str 13, Dex 16 (15+1), Con 14 (13+1), Int 8, Wis 9, Cha 16 (14+2)
-- Pally multi req covered. Dex 16 to start. Cha 16 to start. Con 14 to start, and you have d10+2(x2) and d6+3 for the rest, which is functionally equivalent to d8+con for your carreer.

-- Paladin first for heavy armor, HP, and Wis saves (to shore up that weakness a little); choose two of: athletics, insight, intimidation, medicine, persuasion, and religion (if you choose Insight or persuasion for both BG and class, you can choose any skill freely for this/these, so you can have between 2-4 freely chosen skills for this character).
After that take the 2nd pally level whenever you want to.
-- Brass/Gold/Red Draconic Sorcerer (+1 HP/lvl, +3 AC always on, at Sorc6 you get +Cha to fire spells, including GFB)
-- Quicken and Twinned for metamagic
-- Greenflame Blade, Booming Blade, one ranged attack cantrip of choice, one other cantrip of choice (I prefer Minor Image).
-- Choose control and AoE damage spells for sorc as you level, along with a utility spell here and there.
-- Prepare Bless, Cure Wounds, Divine Favor, and either Searing or Wrathful smite for your Pally spells.

-- You have 16 AC naked. You can wear heavy armor if you want to, but there's no need. Wear leather and take the Defense style. Use the Draconic calc (13+dex), but you're still wearing armor, so AC becomes 17. When you want to melee, you can use a shield (for 19+ AC) and the SCAG cantrips (none of them have S or M components, the shield doesn't interfere). Your smite spells can use your shield as a focus. Your divine smites aren't a spell and therefore it doesn't matter what's in your hands.
When you want to act as a more traditional caster, you sheathe your weapon or put the shield down. No feat needed for any of this.
You can take Warcaster later if you want to for its amazing benefits, but it isn't required in any way.

So what other non-existent conflicts or issues do you see?

[Tikkun]

I happen to agree with @DivisibleByZero concerning this type of character. I am playing the same in an AL game right now with some minor changes: (1) went STR 16, DEX 10 and the rest as outlined, and (2) my metamagic choices at Sorc3 were Quickened and Subtle. Subtle is great for this build as it removes both verbal and somatic requirements for casting for 1 sorcery point.

I used an Outlander background--Wanderer feature--as Half Elfs are wanderers and not comfortable in situations were their parentage is mocked. My first ASI is in Resilient Constitution to shore up that one hole in the Paladin/Sorcerer archetype. Otherwise its good to go and as Divisible mentioned most of the AL stuff, be it a short module or a hardcover are over well before level 12.

[Specter]

So I mistook Criminal for Bounty Hunter as a background, my bad. But they're there essentially for the same skills and proficiencies, right? So the point still stands, for Stealth/Thieves' Tools to work, you'll need DEX. What did I miss at the time of posting?

No, I don't know what he wants. But I'm critiquing a specific build, not anything else. In a forum, I believe I'm entitled to that, and any answers that come for that. With that, we can do better stuff mutually. It's not empty criticism. And yes, I did read his post. He said he wants a build online at level 7 at most. So saying 18 Sorcerer is a good caster is neither here nor there.

Now, some tips about the build you posted, which should be taken in the intended spirit. I'm already assuming it's better than anything I posted:
- DEX is not 17 with Draconic Resilience, because the scales don't count as armor, thus you can't apply Defense to it.
- Sheathing a weapon to cast a sorcerer spell leaves you without possible opportunity attacks. If you're not bothered by that, good, otherwise War Caster is a necessity.
- Starting with Wisdom saves is a need with Wisdom as a dump stat, but then again so are Constitution saves for all the nasty stuff it targets and concentration. Resilient (CON) is needed (or at least War Caster, as said before).
- Assuming level 7, that's 5 sorcery points, so 2 Quickened and 1 Twinned cantrip a day. Once those are gone, melee capacity will drop tremendously, so be ready for that.

[DivisibleByZero]

So I mistook Criminal for Bounty Hunter as a background, my bad. But they're there essentially for the same skills and proficiencies, right? So the point still stands, for Stealth/Thieves' Tools to work, you'll need DEX. What did I miss at the time of posting?
You apparently missed both at the time of posting, and now with the latest post, that he has a16 starting Dex.


- DEX is not 17 with Draconic Resilience, because the scales don't count as armor, thus you can't apply Defense to it.
You can wear armor. You then choose which calculation to use. You choose Draconic. You aren't suddenly not wearing armor any longer.
But if your DM wants to make a fuss about it then your AC is still only 1pt lower.


- Sheathing a weapon to cast a sorcerer spell leaves you without possible opportunity attacks. If you're not bothered by that, good, otherwise War Caster is a necessity.
Or, you know, stow the shield since you're acting as a more traditional caster. But it's a moot point, as when acting in that capacity you shouldn't be standing in melee anyway. But if you are, you can stow the shield and you still have a 17 AC (or you can make it 22 if needed with the shield spell).


- Starting with Wisdom saves is a need with Wisdom as a dump stat, but then again so are Constitution saves for all the nasty stuff it targets and concentration. Resilient (CON) is needed (or at least War Caster, as said before).
Resilient Con is so overrated that I'm not even going to get into it. War Caster is good, but isn't required, as you seem to think.

Edit:
You hypocritically attacked me, and since then you've been nitpicking about things that have already been explained. I'm done with you.

[Biggstick]

You can wear armor. You then choose which calculation to use. You choose Draconic. You aren't suddenly not wearing armor any longer.
But if your DM wants to make a fuss about it then your AC is still only 1pt lower.

You most definitely can't choose which calculation to use. If you're wearing armor, then you can't use the Draconic Resilience armor. It says so right in the ability. However, you can spend the full minute required to Doff the light armor if you'd like to use the unarmored Draconic Resilience. And yes, the DM will most likely make a fuss about it as the OP's title states power gamers who use AL rules. If one of the player's doesn't bring it up, the DM almost definitely will call the PC on it.


Or, you know, stow the shield since you're acting as a more traditional caster. But it's a moot point, as when acting in that capacity you shouldn't be standing in melee anyway. But if you are, you can stow the shield and you still have a 17 AC (or you can make it 22 if needed with the shield spell).

Stowing the shield only costs you your action, no big deal there right? Obviously you can use the Quicken Cantrip to get a spell off with the bonus action, but you're going to be eating through those pretty quick in the early levels.

I also take issue with the idea of stowing the shield if you're acting more as a traditional caster. If you're playing this particular build (Dex focused Sorcadin), you most definitely should be using that shield with an open hand and should be playing further back. In fact I'd almost say you shouldn't ever be wielding a weapon and should stay just as far back as the back line casters and Sharpshooting martials.


Resilient Con is so overrated that I'm not even going to get into it. War Caster is good, but isn't required, as you seem to think.

Resilient Con is an amazing feat if your primary focus is being in the thick of things. War Caster provides a ton of great benefits as well as being essential to the build if you plan on SnB'ing it up, as you won't be able to cast the Shield spell with both hands full. And you're going to have both hands full when you're in melee. Having the ability to cast Booming Blade as an opportunity attack (with a smite thrown on top for good measure) is another sticking for the War Caster feat. I'd also like to bring up that neither of these might seem as appealing to a Dex based Sorcadin, as you don't plan on sitting in melee anyways.

What it sounds like to me Zero is that you've had some pretty generous DM's when it comes to Draconic Resilience and combat action economy rulings. That sort of generosity isn't usually present in games that run off AL rules.

[Specter]

You apparently missed both at the time of posting, and now with the latest post, that he has a16 starting Dex.

Oh, I got that.


You can wear armor. You then choose which calculation to use. You choose Draconic. You aren't suddenly not wearing armor any longer.
But if your DM wants to make a fuss about it then your AC is still only 1pt lower.

The moment you put on any armor, the draconic AC no longer applies. It's not a matter of a DM banning it, it's a matter of legitimate RAW, and in AL that's what matters.


Or, you know, stow the shield since you're acting as a more traditional caster. But it's a moot point, as when acting in that capacity you shouldn't be standing in melee anyway. But if you are, you can stow the shield and you still have a 17 AC (or you can make it 22 if needed with the shield spell).

You mean doffing the shield, and that takes 1 action. Otherwise you can't just choose when you use it or not.


Resilient Con is so overrated that I'm not even going to get into it. War Caster is good, but isn't required, as you seem to think.

It would be overrated if you went Paladin 6, but you're not. And War Caster is not required, unless you want your weapon and shield with you at all times.


Edit:
You hypocritically attacked me, and since then you've been nitpicking about things that have already been explained. I'm done with you.

You rage, you lose.

[DivisibleByZero]

Bigstick:
Question : What happens to the scales on your body granting you the AC when you cover those scales with leather? Answer : Nothing.
The idea that your AC gets lower is asinine. Any reasonable DM, or person for that matter, would agree.
As I already said, if he wants to make a fuss about it, your AC is only 1pt lower.
As I also already said, you can drop the shield OR sheathe your weapon. Your choice. And as I also already said, it's a moot point because when acting in a standard caster's capacity, you shouldn't be standing in melee anyway.

You are also nitpicking things that have already been explained, and I'm also done with you.

Here's the bottom line:
He can act as the trapsmith. He can act as the party face. He can be the scout if you want. He can heal when needed. Having HP/AC/cantrips/smites/magical defenses, he can melee more than adequately when desired. He's an excellent blaster. He's a fantastic controller.
The OP asked for our best. This build is my vision of that, and I'm not going to argue about things that I have already explained any longer.

[SillyPopeNachos]

Abjuration Wizard, likely high elf. Immune to sleep, resists charms, makes other casters cry, arcane ward, etc. Or Moon Druid, where frontliner is a made-up role and your stats don't matter. Half-Elf Bard gets skills, spells, and combat. Variant Winged Tiefling Paladin 6 and warlock the rest (I personally like Great Old One pact of the Tome for all the rituals and the mind-slave) take devil's sight and darkness for all the cheese. Rogue assassin 17 warlock 3 makes the ultimate sneaky killer (pact of the blade = what murder weapon?) (presi cantrip = removing the evidence). Cleric 1 (life)/sorcerer (storm) 3/bard (lore) 16 is the ultimate healer. Fighter 1, Ranger 2, and Paladin 2 gets you your favorite 3 fighting styles by level 5, and going arcane trickster rogue the rest of the way means stacking 70% of the smite power of an equivalent level paladin with 90% of the sneak attack power of an equivalent level non-assassin rogue.

[Naanomi]

Winged tiefling not AL

[SillyPopeNachos]

Winged tiefling not AL
Ok, guess I never played AL rules. Seems strange, considering darkvision is such a common racial trait, and both winged boots and goggles of night grant abilities that can be obtained at level 1 from racial traits, and are the same rarity.

[Naanomi]

AL restricts flight a lot... No winged tiefling or aarakocra, no pteradon Beastmaster pet...

[Freelance GM]

I'm a huge fan of the low-level Human Fighter I/War Cleric I combo. Works best when you have three Tier 1 DM Rewards to jumpstart your character at level 2. However, since it comes online at level 2, it's magnificent for low levels.

But here's how it goes.

Step 1: Start as a variant human fighter, Defense fighting style. Either Heavy Armor Master or Shield Master as your feat, because you're going with chainmail, a shield, and a one-handed weapon of your choice that deals 1d8 damage.
STR 15 + 1, DEX 10, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 15 + 1, CHA 8.
Or, for a more well-rounded character,
STR 15 + 1, DEX 10, CON 14, WIS 13 + 1, INT 8, CHA 12.
I prefer the well-rounded build, because you won't be casting that many spells with saving throws or spell attacks anyways, and I like roleplaying characters with at least some Charisma. Ultimately, it comes down to being able to do stuff outside of combat, or one extra use of your War Priest ability in combat.

Choose whatever background you like, but make sure you're proficient with Athletics if you took Shield Master.

Step 2: Get 200 GP and 300 XP. If you're actually playing AL, this is 3 mini-adventures from an adventure like Defiance in Phlan, City of Danger, Harried in Hillsfar, Suits of the Mist, or Quest for the Broken Hoard.

Step 3: Buy Splint Mail. You will probably be able to afford this 2 to 4 mini-adventures in, otherwise, switch this one with step 4. Once you do this, your AC is 20 (17 + 1 for Defense fighting style, +2 for shield) effectively making you invulnerable to low-level monsters.

Step 4: Take your Cleric level. Since you took your Fighter level first, you have proficiency with Constitution saves. Your Domain is War, giving you access to 2-3 bonus action attacks per day, and all the buffing goodness a Cleric can provide. The first part is less important than the second. Now, when combat gets especially dangerous, you can cast Shield of Faith for an absurd AC of 23, or Divine Favor for +1d4 damage. And since you won't be using GWF with this build, 1d8 + 1d4 + 3 is a pretty nice consolation prize.



Basically untouchable. Most level-appropriate enemies have an attack bonus of +3 to +5, meaning you're pretty tough to hit with an AC of 20 or 23. Choosing Heavy Armor Master as your free feat softens the occasional hits you do actually take. Now, this advantage levels off as you get to higher levels, so pick up plate mail, magic armor, or a magic shield as soon as your DM makes one available.

Combat Adaptability. If you took it, Shield Master lets you push around enemies with your bonus action. (FAQ rules the shove can happen before your attack, but you're committed to attacking the enemy you shove.) Knock 'em prone with your Bonus Action, hit with advantage. Deal more damage with Divine Favor, tank with Shield of Faith, or use your spell slots and cantrips like Spare the Dying to pick up downed allies. In a pinch, you can even use Sacred Flame to hit enemies who are resistant to your melee weapons. You can play tank or support, whichever your party needs more.

Early Access. This build comes online at level 2, and from there, it's pretty open. Take more fighter levels for Action Surge, ASI's and extra attacks, or more Cleric levels for more spells. Personally, I feel like you get more out of the Fighter route. I'd pick Champion over Battlemaster, because you roll 2 to 3 more attack rolls per day than any other Champion (more likely to crit), and the extra Fighting Style at level 10 lets you pick up the Duelist style for an additional +2 damage. Every little bit helps. Plus, the Cleric level gives you toys to play with, which trumps the Champion's downside of "good, but boring."

Roleplay-able. Whether you go for the 12 Charisma or not, a soldier who found religion in the battlefield is a perfectly roleplayable character. Some people don't care, but I count plausibility and flavor as a significant pro for a power-gaming build.




Early Access This build comes online at level 2. What you do next is kind of open-ended. "Do whatever" isn't really a good advancement strategy, though, so this counts as a pro and a con.

Awesome, but Boring This character runs into the Superman/One Punch Man problem. You probably won't get hit, so there's really no reason to attack you. IMO, combat kind of loses its fun when the sense of risk and danger is gone. Which brings me to my next point:

Crafty DMs You take your Fighter level first so you can use whatever martial weapon you want with your chainmail and shield, and also for the Con saves. The trade-off for the better starting equipment is Wis saves! Since you're more or less impervious to weapon damage, any DM with half a brain is going to make you the go-to target for save or suck spells. Expect to be charmed, held, fascinated, dominated, frightened, or sent chasing after phantasmal enemies more often than anyone else in the party.



I hope you enjoy it! I'm actually using this build with one of my AL characters, and the "Awesome but Boring" con is what killed it. So, I can personally vouch for its effectiveness. Shield Master trades a bit of effectiveness for making it more fun to play.

[Klorox]

Resilient Con is so overrated that I'm not even going to get into it.

I was about to ask why you think resilient CON is so overrated.

Then I realized my AL vhuman wizard picked it at level 1. I just hit level 9 and have made 2 concentration checks his entire career. If this DM understood casters a little better, I might've been in more trouble, but I'm not sure.

[Belac93]

I was about to ask why you think resilient CON is so overrated.

Then I realized my AL vhuman wizard picked it at level 1. I just hit level 9 and have made 2 concentration checks his entire career. If this DM understood casters a little better, I might've been in more trouble, but I'm not sure.

It's only really a concerned if you are a melee spellcaster. Like a tempest cleric, or a bladelock. Everyone else can probably get by without it (although it is on my top picks for spellcaster feats).

[Klorox]

Most things that really feel icky don't come online until high level... Here are a few AL builds that ended up feeling very strong at the table at least at some point along the way:
-1/2 Orc Assassin 3/Barbarian 17
-V human Fighter 1/Swashbuckler 19 w/strength and shield mastery
-battlemaster 20 w/sharpshooter/crossbow mastery
-Necromancer 9/Warlock 11 <-- probably the most overpowered I've seen at AL by the end

A) what's "by the end" in AL?
B) why is this combo so powerful?

[DivisibleByZero]

I was about to ask why you think resilient CON is so overrated.

Then I realized my AL vhuman wizard picked it at level 1. I just hit level 9 and have made 2 concentration checks his entire career. If this DM understood casters a little better, I might've been in more trouble, but I'm not sure.

Exactly.
And then there's the fact that you have to get hit by 22+ damage in a single hit before the DC raises above 10.
In almost every single situation, war caster is the superior choice, imnsho.

[Erys]

Case by case, but I tend to gravitate towards Res: Con simply to have a better con save. Better concentration checks are a bonus.

[Tikkun]

The necro 9/warlock 11 combo gives you an army of skeletons and zombies via animate undead. Using 5th level spell slots you potentially have 5 skeletons/zombies per casting, if you can find that many humanoid bones/corpses. At level 9 the wizard will have one such slot ( at level 4 you can have 3 skels/zombs ), and the Warlock 11 3 5th level slots renewable on a short rest. Additionally, the Warlock will have a 6th level spell probably Create Undead which gives him/her control over a ghoul to add to the fray.

So you have a potential army of 15+ skeletons ( usually used as archers) and zombies (usually used as fighters ) along with a ghoul. There are a number of caveats: (1) finding humanoid bones and corpses, (2) finding someway to keep track of the damage taken and received, (3) owning lots of dice and the ability to keep rolling, (4) the rest of the party being bored silly while you take 5-10 minutes to resolve your army's turn, (5) having the gear to equip the horde--ie. bows, arrows, armour and weapons, and; (6) this will only come online at level 20.

Obviously most AL modules/campaigns will have ended long before this archetype can come online.

[DivisibleByZero]

Case by case, but I tend to gravitate towards Res: Con simply to have a better con save. Better concentration checks are a bonus.

Mathematically speaking, advantage has a much higher impact than a straight bonus within the range of average DCs. As far as I'm concerned, that, coupled with the other goodies that WC brings to the table, trumps RC giving a boost to Con saves in general.

[Belac93]

The necro 9/warlock 11 combo gives you an army of skeletons and zombies via animate undead. Using 5th level spell slots you potentially have 5 skeletons/zombies per casting, if you can find that many humanoid bones/corpses. At level 9 the wizard will have one such slot ( at level 4 you can have 3 skels/zombs ), and the Warlock 11 3 5th level slots renewable on a short rest. Additionally, the Warlock will have a 6th level spell probably Create Undead which gives him/her control over a ghoul to add to the fray.

So you have a potential army of 15+ skeletons ( usually used as archers) and zombies (usually used as fighters ) along with a ghoul. There are a number of caveats: (1) finding humanoid bones and corpses, (2) finding someway to keep track of the damage taken and received, (3) owning lots of dice and the ability to keep rolling, (4) the rest of the party being bored silly while you take 5-10 minutes to resolve your army's turn, (5) having the gear to equip the horde--ie. bows, arrows, armour and weapons, and; (6) this will only come online at level 20.

Obviously most AL modules/campaigns will have ended long before this archetype can come online.

You can use the rules for mob attacks from the DMG. Pretty much tells you that, if X roll is needed to hit an opponent, then X creatures are needed for 1 hit.

[Erys]

Mathematically speaking, advantage has a much higher impact than a straight bonus within the range of average DCs. As far as I'm concerned, that, coupled with the other goodies that WC brings to the table, trumps RC giving a boost to Con saves in general.

Not arguing that it doesn't.

Just saying I prefer a better Con save via Res: Con, and that the bonus to my concentration checks is an additional bonus to having the feat. Spells and effects that target Con tend to be rather bunk, and also tend to have the most permanent consequences when you fail them.

[Biggstick]

Mathematically speaking, advantage has a much higher impact than a straight bonus within the range of average DCs. As far as I'm concerned, that, coupled with the other goodies that WC brings to the table, trumps RC giving a boost to Con saves in general.

Concentration Save DC 10
Level 4, 13 Con with Warcaster: 79.75% chance to make the save
Level 4, 14 Con with Res: Con: 70% chance to make the save

Concentration Save DC 10
Level 5, 13 Con with Warcaster: 79.75% chance to make the save
Level 5, 14 Con with Res: Con: 75% chance to make the save

Concentration Save DC 10
Level 9, 13 Con with Warcaster: 79.75% chance to make the save
Level 9, 14 Con with Res: Con: 80% chance to make the save

Concentration Save DC 10
Level 13, 13 Con with Warcaster: 79.75% chance to make the save
Level 13, 14 Con with Res: Con: 85% chance to make the save


We can even go as far as to give the PC with Warcaster 14 Con and the chance to make the save is still 84 percent.


So with this information, we can come to the conclusion that +6 is the point at which the raw numbers overtake the extra die from Warcaster. Resilient: Con does a great job of boosting this number, especially once one is PC level 9+. With Resilient: Con, you can even get to a point where you're guaranteed to make your Con save (at +9 to Con saves) which Warcaster can't do.

What Warcaster does do though, is allow one to wade into melee without having to discard or sheathe weapon or shield and still allowing spells like Shield to be cast. It opens up your PC's value on reaction attacks with BB, GFB, and tons of other spell choices. These are fantastic things to have on a PC that plans on being in the thick of things and casting spells. If one never plans on casting spells in melee though, then it becomes less valuable.

[Naanomi]

A) what's "by the end" in AL?
B) why is this combo so powerful?
A) levels 11+ but especially 17+
B) when other people take long rests, you take 8 short rests to use warlock slots to cast animate dead to build and maintain an unreasonably big army

[DivisibleByZero]

Biggstick, your numbers assume the caster with WC has a13 Con, but there's no reason to make it 13 of we aren't planning on taking R:C.
A 14 Con for WC makes more sense. I realize you addressed this (almost as an afterthought), but it warranted mentioning.
At that point it becomes advantage WC almost your entire career (it already was, now even more so), and WC's other goodies are just icing on the cake.
So like I said, I prefer WC to R:C in almost every situation.

[Cybren]

Biggstick, your numbers assume the caster with WC has a13 Con, but there's no reason to make it 13 of we aren't planning on taking R:C.
A 14 Con for WC makes more sense. I realize you addressed this (almost as an afterthought), but it warranted mentioning.
At that point it becomes advantage WC almost your entire career (it already was, now even more so), and WC's other goodies are just icing on the cake.
So like I said, I prefer WC to R:C in almost every situation.

Except resilient con gives you proficiency on _all_ con saves and +.5HP per level... They're not directly analogous

[XmonkTad]

Off topic: I'm really interested in this Warcaster vs. Resilient(con) from a mathematical standpoint. I'll have to crunch numbers, but what happens if you add in Lucky to the mix?

On topic: Sorclock would be my pick for best char with the spell sniper feat and distant spell. Buy a cheap horse/pony and kite. If you go tome, grab phantom steed. And if you're in a dungeon, repelling blast and a wall spell can help keep things away from you. Comes online by level 4ish.

[Klorox]

Off topic: I'm really interested in this Warcaster vs. Resilient(con) from a mathematical standpoint. I'll have to crunch numbers, but what happens if you add in Lucky to the mix?

On topic: Sorclock would be my pick for best char with the spell sniper feat and distant spell. Buy a cheap horse/pony and kite. If you go tome, grab phantom steed. And if you're in a dungeon, repelling blast and a wall spell can help keep things away from you. Comes online by level 4ish.

Lock 2/sorc X?

I'm interested in the math as well.

[PeteNutButter]

I've seen breakdowns of WC vs resilient con, although I can't remember where or would link.

But if I remember the takeaway was that WC is generally better for most play. Since you only need 10 for most rolls, it just mitigates the bad rolls. Picture the average character is going to have ~+2 con, and +2-3 proficiency for most games played.

At 3 proficiency you fail that DC 10 on a roll of 1-7 (35%) without resilient or 1-4 (20%) with, or with WC (like 12.3%?). EDIT: Even with the bump to con brings you to 16 that to (15%) which is closer meaning you could value the HP per level more than the WC benefits.

So unless you specifically build for the feat (which is worse) via the odd con, WC is just better and massively so if you want to melee due to the other benefits.

[Corran]

Except resilient con gives you proficiency on _all_ con saves and +.5HP per level... They're not directly analogous
This.
It is easier, and much more practical, to compare these feats on a case by case basis. Meaning that it is much better to know the character build before deducing which of these feats is a better fit for it. Theoritical comparison between them two can be done, though I doubt it will lead to a definite answer, the best you can get out of it is a broad idea of under which conditions each of these feats is generally prefered, but as I said, it is infinitely more practical and more logical to just know the build so that you can make the ''right'' choice.

[XmonkTad]

Lock 2/sorc X?

I'm interested in the math as well.

Lock 3 is my go-to breakpoint. Pact of the tome is amazing, even if it can only do cantrips and level 1 & 2 spells. Having all 3 EB enhancing invocations is amazing if you're going to use it as your main source of damage.

[Klorox]

Lock 3 is my go-to breakpoint. Pact of the tome is amazing, even if it can only do cantrips and level 1 & 2 spells. Having all 3 EB enhancing invocations is amazing if you're going to use it as your main source of damage.

I played a character like this once. I did do a ton of damage with hex and multiple eldritch blasts.

That being said, if you're patient, it's even better with two levels of fighter. The armor, CON save, and especially action surge for when you need to control the battlefield with repelling blast.

[Tauguy628]

You could also always go with the Arua of Vitality + extend spell + life cleric 1 cheese. All the healing. ☺

[furby076]

All I do is play OP AL characters. Most of the goodies are covered above. My favorite is nova builds so go paladin 2/sorc x and smite for days and quicken spells.

Remember you can freely change your character up to level 5. If it's a group of power gamers make sure you are optimized for a good character levels 1-4. Then swap to whatever you stick with to "lock in" at level 5.

What is "AL"

And how can one swap character stuff until 5?

[Klorox]

What is "AL"

And how can one swap character stuff until 5?

AL is Adventurer's League. You build a character with only official D&D classes and races, 27 point buy.

AL rules allow you to change your character until you hit level 5. This is so you don't "lose credit" for trying out a class if you find out you're not really into it. Since AL can get competitive, and you're required to start at level 1, this is important.

[Klorox]

I'm starting to like the idea of a DEX based battlemaster 3 (or 5)/ swashbuckler X. Possibly draconic sorcerer 1 (you'll have the CHA, and the constant mage armor is sweet). If that new ranger ever becomes AL legal, throw a level of that in there too!

The idea is to maximize your sneak attack damage.

Swashbuckler basically allows you to get sneak attack damage every turn. The battlemaster gives you riposte, which allows attacks as a reaction, when you're attacked. These reaction attacks will have sneak attack damage too.

At level 6, in studded leather, you'll have a 20 (or 21 if you take defense fighting style), and with a 16 DEX, you'll be doing 1d8+2d6+3 (+5 if you took the dueling fighting style) damage on your attack, and the same if someone attacks you and misses.

If you plan on adding that level of draconic sorcerer, don't take defensive style!

Also, the defensive duelist feat is a good one for this character. But unless you're a variant human (which is *always* a good choice), you won't get an ASI for a long time.

[Klorox]

I'll say the same thing I always say in this situation:

Half elf, Urban Bounty Hunter background (SCAG)
Str 13, Dex 16 (15+1), Con 14 (13+1) Int 8, Wis 9, Cha 16 (14+2)
Pally 2 / Dragon Sorc X
You can melee with respectable AC and HP (using Booming/Greenflame/Divine Smite), you can be the trapsmith, you can be the party face, you have 6 trained skills so you can fill in as a skillmonkey if you want to, you can heal, you are primarily an arcane caster (only losing 1 level worth of slots and learning spells 2 levels later), and you have metamagic.

He's the Swiss Army Build of 5e.

Why DEX and not STR based?

Doesn't using a rapier/shield combo pretty much lock you into the warcaster feat?

I was thinking of STR based with a greatsword or a maul. Possibly a different background, since DEX will not have a positive modifier.

[Specter]

Why DEX and not STR based?

Doesn't using a rapier/shield combo pretty much lock you into the warcaster feat?

I was thinking of STR based with a greatsword or a maul.

Just to say he's able to use Thieves' Tools, apparently. But anyhoo.

Your swash/BM idea is on point. I've played an NPC that consisted of Swash 7/BM 5. The Barb tank went head on to take him out (as expected) and was surprised with the shower of dice. Hadn't it been for a Hold Person, he'd probably be buried now (note to self and others: add Resilient (WIS) to this build).

[Klorox]

Just to say he's able to use Thieves' Tools, apparently. But anyhoo.

Your swash/BM idea is on point. I've played an NPC that consisted of Swash 7/BM 5. The Barb tank went head on to take him out (as expected) and was surprised with the shower of dice. Hadn't it been for a Hold Person, he'd probably be buried now (note to self and others: add Resilient (WIS) to this build).

Cool, thanks!

Perhaps I'll go with that one.

New game starts Thursday and I always like to have a few characters ready so I can play something that creates a more balanced party. I know the common theme is "play what you like," but I like a lot of things.

In a theoretical level 20 split, a BM 5/Swash 15 is probably best, right? Or 6/14 for the extra ASI?

[Specter]

Cool, thanks!

Perhaps I'll go with that one.

New game starts Thursday and I always like to have a few characters ready so I can play something that creates a more balanced party. I know the common theme is "play what you like," but I like a lot of things.

In a theoretical level 20 split, a BM 5/Swash 15 is probably best, right? Or 6/14 for the extra ASI?

6/14, because then you can take Resilient (WIS) whenever you please. Slippery Mind only gives the save proficiency, not +1WIS, so you can plan an odd score.

[DivisibleByZero]

Why DEX and not STR based?

Doesn't using a rapier/shield combo pretty much lock you into the warcaster feat?

Thieves' tools, initiative, Dex saves, AC, acrobatics, stealth, etc etc etc.

A Str build brings a tiny bit more damage via larger weapons.
A Dex build brings a ton more to the table, at the cost of a tiny (almost insignificant) amount of damage.

War Caster is certainly fantastic here, but it isn't required.

[PeteNutButter]

I'm starting to like the idea of a DEX based battlemaster 3 (or 5)/ swashbuckler X. Possibly draconic sorcerer 1 (you'll have the CHA, and the constant mage armor is sweet)....

If you are considering sorcerer, it can replace BM fighter altogether. Quicken BB/GFB then ready another GFB/BB to get an attack on a separate turn. Works out to more damage via the cantrips. Sorc 7/Rogue 13 could do 2 GFBs for (4d8+10+7d6)x2 avg 105. Potentially another 8d8+10 if an enemy is adjacent, 151 DPR isn't bad. Throw on haste to potentially save you the sorcery points of quicken.

It comes at the cost of your reaction (essentially turning your action into your reaction) and costs 2 sorcery points to quicken. I'd go AK to make sure you have the spells to burn to keep sorcery points up. If you don't fancy the level 13 AK feature or greater invisibility spell, you could even drop a level on each sorcerer and rogue for 2 paladin to pick up duelist style and SMITE.

[Klorox]

Thieves' tools, initiative, Dex saves, AC, acrobatics, stealth, etc etc etc.

A Str build brings a tiny bit more damage via larger weapons.
A Dex build brings a ton more to the table, at the cost of a tiny (almost insignificant) amount of damage.

War Caster is certainly fantastic here, but it isn't required.

The reason I mentioned it as required was so you could use the shield spell.

Using GFB or BB as a reaction is sweet too.