Changes to Create Thrall Warlock

[Nemenia]

Warlock is an interesting, flavor and RP oriented class in 5e with a very specific niche and a single (blastlock) optimization path, but there's one thing pretty much everyone seems to agree on. Goolock Create thrall sucks. For a level 14 class power, it is phenomenally underwhelming and boring RAW. Useless in some campaigns, barely passable in others, and pretty much ignored. What would be an acceptable level of power for the ability?

Also, as a sidenote, I plan to play a Goolock soon and want to run this by my DM before we begin.

Well, let's look at other people's level 14 powers.

Bard: Bards can now cast a spell and attack as a bonus action, basically doubling their action economy in a fight.

Barbarians get their third and final totemic attunement or a free counterattack. One amazing one minor

Clerics: instantly destroy and CR 3 Undead or lower. Pretty nice

Druid: Permanent Alter Self, a second level spell, at will.

Fighters, with their weird progression system, get an ability score improvement/feat which is still a huge deal.

Monks: proficiency in all saving throws (holy *****) and ki to reroll any saving throw (double *****)

Paladin: end a spell on anyone (albeit a limited number of times, probably 5 at this point) a day

Ranger: bonus stealth forever and a new favored enemy. dayumn son.

Rogue: They get frigging Blind Sense! what is this??

Sorc: origin feature. Read: PERMANENT FLIGHT or options on wild magic

Wizard: And here is the real kicker. their last arcane tradition feature, usually a massively powerful bonus to an entire school of magic. altering memories, more die, REAL ILLUSIONS and what-have-you

All the while warlocks get a single permanent charm on an unconscious person.

So compared to these other options, I have three suggestions for Warlock, and would like to know other suggestions if you have any.

1. Change it so all other conditions remaind the same, but spell now works as Dominate Monster, complete with saving throw upon taking damage, but with disadvantage

2. Telepathic Suggestion/Dream (staying within warlock spell choices)

3. Without infringing too much on Wizard Enchantment school, perhaps a way to alter memories/perceptions? free Phantasmal force on them permanently? Similar to Aboleth powers.

Balanced? Opinions? I really want to know if people feel the same way I do about this. Thanks!

[Millstone85]

there's one thing pretty much everyone seems to agree on. Goolock Create thrall sucks.I, for one, disagree. Here is someone who won't harm you no matter how many times you harm them. That alone is a great and possibly unique ability.

[Nemenia]

I, for one, disagree. Here is someone who won't harm you no matter how many times you harm them. That alone is a great and possibly unique ability.

If you've already knocked the person unconscious, so you can do literally ANYTHING you want to them, and then charm them, how is that useful in the slightest? you can wake them up and knock them out a second time? gee, I guess if you're a sadist in an RPG game it'll be kinda fun. On a second note, being charmed doesnt prevent the target from hating you, hiring people to kill you, revealing your secrets etc. whatever else they want to do. the charmed condition does two things:

They can't hurt you directly with abilities
You have advantage on social roles. you can still fail to ask them to do anything, and they can still try and get you hurt. Please explain how this is great and unique, especially since any wizard can do the same thing with any of the mind control spells, or much better

[Kalashak]

Well for one thing, the duration of Create Thrall is potentially as long as you'd like for it to be.

[Millstone85]

If you've already knocked the person unconscious, so you can do literally ANYTHING you want to them, and then charm them, how is that useful in the slightest?They need not be unconscious, just incapacitated.
Tasha's hideous laughter, which is on the GOO expanded spell list, does that, with a saving throw on each turn or damage.
Touch them before they save and they are helpless against you for the rest of the fight and beyond.


On a second note, being charmed doesnt prevent the target from hating you, hiring people to kill you, revealing your secrets etc. whatever else they want to do.They still can't directly hurt you while you hurt them, plus you have advantage on intimidation checks. Make them know better!


I guess if you're a sadist in an RPG game it'll be kinda fun.The feature is called Create Thrall.
Even if you think the RAW doesn't live up to the name, the tone is set.

[MaxWilson]

So compared to these other options, I have three suggestions for Warlock, and would like to know other suggestions if you have any.

1. Change it so all other conditions remaind the same, but spell now works as Dominate Monster, complete with saving throw upon taking damage, but with disadvantage

2. Telepathic Suggestion/Dream (staying within warlock spell choices)

3. Without infringing too much on Wizard Enchantment school, perhaps a way to alter memories/perceptions? free Phantasmal force on them permanently? Similar to Aboleth powers.

Balanced? Opinions? I really want to know if people feel the same way I do about this. Thanks!

I go with a stronger version of #1: "the target is charmed by you and obeys your commands." Simple, no muss no fuss, and makes the ability do what everyone (probably including the writer) thought it did the first time they read it, before they learned the technical definition of "charmed" in 5E.

[MasterMercury]

Create Thrall isn't that bad of an ability. Incapacitate a guard/orc/wizard, wake him up, and you can convince him to help you on your journey. And if the guy refuses, use your telepathy to mess with him until he does.

That being said, as a DM I wouldn't argue with it being a bit stronger. Being charmed and Obeying Commands works fairly well, but at the same time there is peril in that. What if the goolock incapacitates and charms the Big Bad, or even another party member?
In my eyes, Create Thrall has enough potential as is.

[georgie_leech]

Create Thrall isn't that bad of an ability. Incapacitate a guard/orc/wizard, wake him up, and you can convince him to help you on your journey. And if the guy refuses, use your telepathy to mess with him until he does.

That being said, as a DM I wouldn't argue with it being a bit stronger. Being charmed and Obeying Commands works fairly well, but at the same time there is peril in that. What if the goolock incapacitates and charms the Big Bad, or even another party member?
In my eyes, Create Thrall has enough potential as is.

Then they've won, and the campaign is over. How is that meaningfully different to the campaign from "Killed the BBEG?"

[Millstone85]

I don't know why I mentioned Tasha when at this point you have better incapacitating spells like hold person or hypnotic pattern. Anyway, you got the idea.

[Nemenia]

Create Thrall isn't that bad of an ability. Incapacitate a guard/orc/wizard, wake him up, and you can convince him to help you on your journey. And if the guy refuses, use your telepathy to mess with him until he does.

That being said, as a DM I wouldn't argue with it being a bit stronger. Being charmed and Obeying Commands works fairly well, but at the same time there is peril in that. What if the goolock incapacitates and charms the Big Bad, or even another party member?
In my eyes, Create Thrall has enough potential as is.

At level 14, taming a major boss seems like a perfectly reasonable accomplishment, and you still have to beat him in a fight or make him fail several saving throws first. plenty of BBEG's have ways to counter such a paltry ability.

[MaxWilson]

Then they've won, and the campaign is over. How is that meaningfully different to the campaign from "Killed the BBEG?"

How so? The Big Bad can still kill all the other PCs, can still drop Fireballs which just "happen" to include his GOOLock master in the target radius, can still Teleport to freedom and seek ways to break the charm at his leisure, etc.

ObSneakers:

Cosmo: "I cannot kill my friend."

[to his henchmen]

Cosmo: "Kill my friend."

[MasterMercury]

Then they've won, and the campaign is over. How is that meaningfully different to the campaign from "Killed the BBEG?"

The difference is, now they can use the evil lord Garganel to blast through the stronghold of evil count Alisatr, with no risk at all if one character has complete, permanent control.

[Nemenia]

How so? The Big Bad can still kill all the other PCs, can still drop Fireballs which just "happen" to include his GOOLock master in the target radius, can still Teleport to freedom and seek ways to break the charm at his leisure, etc.

ObSneakers:

Cosmo: "I cannot kill my friend."

[to his henchmen]

Cosmo: "Kill my friend."

we're discussing how it would work if we changed it to obey all commands. read before posting

[georgie_leech]

The point being, if you're in a position to use any version of Create Thrall on the BBEG, you've already essentially won, no? The BBEG has already been neutralized, so whether they're dead or a thrall seems somewhat beside the point.

[Segev]

I do think the trouble lies with how little the Charmed condition resembles what it sounds like.

[Nemenia]

I do think the trouble lies with how little the Charmed condition resembles what it sounds like.

So would reworking the charmed condition be more appropriate, then? Especially since so many monsters give the "charmed" condition, but also get total control

[Segev]

So would reworking the charmed condition be more appropriate, then? Especially since so many monsters give the "charmed" condition, but also get total control

Personally, I would have the Charmed condition inflict its normal effects plus the "always interprets everything you say or do in the best possible light" clause from charm person.

But honestly, the problem is a little too deeply wound into the game. I am not sure that's an appropriate effect for, say, geas, which uses the Charmed condition (for some reason) and then doesn't technically do anything unless the victim directly works against the order you've given him. Merely failing to bother doesn't do anything, because that's not directly working against it. And neither the Charmed condition in the RAW nor making it charm person would help with that.

I think the most straight-forward solution to your specific problem, though, would be to treat the warlock ability like either charm monster or dominate monster. If not both. It's "Create Thrall," for crying out loud, not "make somebody unwilling to attack you, but otherwise free to dislike you and refuse to help you in any way and even undermine you in non-attack ways."

[CursedRhubarb]

It's a utility ability and the usefulness of it is only bound by your imagination. In combat, any humanoid your party gets with a hold person or similar spell becomes an ally with just a touch. Grab a caster for some real fun and if they survive the fight you now have a lackey to do your bidding. A caster for increased spells or a martial for a personal bodyguard.
Out of combat it makes an excellent way to get a spy into an area, find a guy in the organisation you need info on and either get him while sleeping or jump him in an alley. Then have him go about normal, never telling anyone about you and reporting regularly.
Other less noble uses, thrall the inkeep or a storekeep and get a new income source and free stuff!
Since it's a touch ability, if you DM allows, it might be able be done via a familiar. If so, thrall the king or the princess and have a kingdom to yourself.

[Segev]

It's a utility ability and the usefulness of it is only bound by your imagination. In combat, any humanoid your party gets with a hold person or similar spell becomes an ally with just a touch. Grab a caster for some real fun and if they survive the fight you now have a lackey to do your bidding. A caster for increased spells or a martial for a personal bodyguard.
Out of combat it makes an excellent way to get a spy into an area, find a guy in the organisation you need info on and either get him while sleeping or jump him in an alley. Then have him go about normal, never telling anyone about you and reporting regularly.
Other less noble uses, thrall the inkeep or a storekeep and get a new income source and free stuff!
Since it's a touch ability, if you DM allows, it might be able be done via a familiar. If so, thrall the king or the princess and have a kingdom to yourself.

If it works like that, then yes, it's great. That's not necessarily how the RAW say it works, though, since ALL the RAW say is that it inflicts the Charmed condition.

The Charmed condition does not actually make them obey you, or even feel kindly disposed towards you. It just makes them unable to attack you nor target you with harmful effects. It doesn't make them unable to hate you, to give orders to others to harm you, to sabotage your efforts, or even include you in AOEs of harmful effects targeted on space you just happen to be occupying.

That's as written.

If you want to house rule it to make them actually like you and/or trust you and/or want to please you, more power to you! It's really dumb as written.


Edit: Ah, I forgot the second clause. It DOES give you Advantage on social rolls against the creature you've Charmed. So if Advantage is enough to get it to do things you want it to, there's whatever control your DM decides social rolls can give you.

Still not very good.

[Millstone85]

or even include you in AOEs of harmful effects targeted on space you just happen to be occupying.Is that really considered a workaround for the "can't attack or target with harmful abilities" clause? What about the spell fireball referring to each creature caught in the explosion as a "target"?

[MaxWilson]

If it works like that, then yes, it's great. That's not necessarily how the RAW say it works, though, since ALL the RAW say is that it inflicts the Charmed condition.

The Charmed condition does not actually make them obey you, or even feel kindly disposed towards you. It just makes them unable to attack you nor target you with harmful effects. It doesn't make them unable to hate you, to give orders to others to harm you, to sabotage your efforts, or even include you in AOEs of harmful effects targeted on space you just happen to be occupying.

That's as written.

I think the root of the problem with charm in 5E is the fact that the Charmed condition is written in gamist terms instead of roleplaying terms. It says that you get advantage on social skill checks, but doesn't say why, so we can't deduce what effect that ought to have on a creature's behavior or what ought to happen in a situation where no checks are being made. Many DMs will default to "no effect."

If we follow your suggestion and say, "A creature which is charmed by you interprets everything you say and do in the most favorable possible light; this gives advantage on social skill checks," then the Charmed condition becomes more unambiguously useful for some besides preventing attacks.

[georgie_leech]

I think the root of the problem with charm in 5E is the fact that the Charmed condition is written in gamist terms instead of roleplaying terms. It says that you get advantage on social skill checks, but doesn't say why, so we can't deduce what effect that ought to have on a creature's behavior or what ought to happen in a situation where no checks are being made. Many DMs will default to "no effect."

If we follow your suggestion and say, "A creature which is charmed by you interprets everything you say and do in the most favorable possible light; this gives advantage on social skill checks," then the Charmed condition becomes more unambiguously useful for some besides preventing attacks.

I think part of the idea is to leave it up to individual effects what the charmed condition means. Like, Crown of Madness really doesn't seem like the kind of spell to make the target view the caster favorably. More like the slight control the caster can exert is enough to keep the target from attacking the caster. So I can see some benefit to leaving the condition itself vague, and letting the individual effects that give the condition specify how it's doing so.

Shame none of the writers remembered to do that. :smallamused:

[Xetheral]

It's a utility ability and the usefulness of it is only bound by your imagination. In combat, any humanoid your party gets with a hold person or similar spell becomes an ally with just a touch. Grab a caster for some real fun and if they survive the fight you now have a lackey to do your bidding. A caster for increased spells or a martial for a personal bodyguard.
Out of combat it makes an excellent way to get a spy into an area, find a guy in the organisation you need info on and either get him while sleeping or jump him in an alley. Then have him go about normal, never telling anyone about you and reporting regularly.
Other less noble uses, thrall the inkeep or a storekeep and get a new income source and free stuff!
Since it's a touch ability, if you DM allows, it might be able be done via a familiar. If so, thrall the king or the princess and have a kingdom to yourself.

Create Thrall doesn't give you any new form of control over the creature whatsoever. If, at your table, you were already able to do the things you describe with a social skill check, then Create Thrall makes it easier, because you're more likely to succeed in the roll.

Using one of your examples, if, at your table, it would be possible to convince a storekeeper to keep you free stuff (and his store's income!) with a successful persuasion check, then Create Thrall merely makes it easier to succeed on that check. Of course, the check would be no easier than if an ally was assisting you.

The bottom line is that, as written, Create Thrall gives you no more control over the subject than you'd get by teaming up with an ally to try to persuade, deceive, or intimidate them.

[Nemenia]

It's a utility ability and the usefulness of it is only bound by your imagination. In combat, any humanoid your party gets with a hold person or similar spell becomes an ally with just a touch. Grab a caster for some real fun and if they survive the fight you now have a lackey to do your bidding. A caster for increased spells or a martial for a personal bodyguard.
Out of combat it makes an excellent way to get a spy into an area, find a guy in the organisation you need info on and either get him while sleeping or jump him in an alley. Then have him go about normal, never telling anyone about you and reporting regularly.
Other less noble uses, thrall the inkeep or a storekeep and get a new income source and free stuff!
Since it's a touch ability, if you DM allows, it might be able be done via a familiar. If so, thrall the king or the princess and have a kingdom to yourself.

If it worked like that, it would be great! Unfortunately it does not, in any way, work like that. It sounds like you have not even read the ability or charmed condition. Which is exactly why I made this thread! Go have a look and come back and see what you think then.

[Nemenia]

Create Thrall doesn't give you any new form of control over the creature whatsoever. If, at your table, you were already able to do the things you describe with a social skill check, then Create Thrall makes it easier, because you're more likely to succeed in the roll.

Using one of your examples, if, at your table, it would be possible to convince a storekeeper to keep you free stuff (and his store's income!) with a successful persuasion check, then Create Thrall merely makes it easier to succeed on that check. Of course, the check would be no easier than if an ally was assisting you.

The bottom line is that, as written, Create Thrall gives you no more control over the subject than you'd get by teaming up with an ally to try to persuade, deceive, or intimidate them.

which is embarrassing for a level 14 ability.

[Vorpalchicken]

Has anyone brought up the point that the warlock may harm the thrall without breaking the spell (unlike charm person), while the thrall is powerless to harm the warlock?
That would give the warlock incredible leverage to enforce his will on the thrall.

[Segev]

Charmed is honestly overused, too, in spells where something by its name make no sense, and where the second clause (about advantage on persuasions) makes even less sense. Crown of madness is an excellent example; what in it justifies you having a bonus to persuade them, when the spells fluff and other mechanics center around making the victim attack people compulsively?

And it's sloppy as heck to use it in geas; I can only assume it's meant to make sure that the victim can't turn on you for giving him this quest. Pity the spell does nothing to make him do anything proactive towards said quest.

In all, it's one of the worst-written and worst-used parts of 5e, and it's pervasive.

[CursedRhubarb]

You just have to be creative with your commands and suggestions. Telling them "you should work for me now" can get you your lackey. If you want cash or items from stores just convince them that "partnering with me will be great for you". Convince them to stay away from things that could end the control by telling them such things are actually "methods to make you susceptible to being possessed".
You just have to be creative. Almost everything the Great Old One offers is best for things other than offense. Of the three patrons it's the weakest for combat but has the best utility and out of combat uses.

[Millstone85]

Is that really considered a workaround for the "can't attack or target with harmful abilities" clause? What about the spell fireball referring to each creature caught in the explosion as a "target"?Nevermind, I see the loophole now. A spell like fireball might indeed "target" creatures in the AOE, but other spells create lasting hazards that damage creatures when they start their turn there or whatever.


Has anyone brought up the point that the warlock may harm the thrall without breaking the spell (unlike charm person), while the thrall is powerless to harm the warlock?Yes, I brought that up in the thread's first reply. But it seems spellcasters may not be so powerless after all.

[Giant2005]

Create Thrall is better than most of the abilities you listed. The only ones that beat it are the Druids (which is useless for the Warlock that gets the same ability at level 15), some of the Wizard abilities, the Rogue, the Sorc, and of course the Monk, who's level 14 ability is probably the best ability in the game.
Also, it is never a good idea to compare abilities of a single level when balancing. That isn't how balancing works. A level 14 Warlock should be comparable to the level 14 versions of other classes (and I don't think there are many that would consider the Warlock underpowered). Even if the ability was a useless ribbon like "You can ignore any nasty smell that isn't overpowering enough to impose penalties", it would be okay as long as you had previously received something great enough to warrant something worthless.
You would be better able to make a case for empowering Create Thrall by comparing it to the level 14 abilities of the other Warlock subclasses, except for the fact that Create Thrall is arguably the best of them.

[Delusion]

Charmed is honestly overused, too, in spells where something by its name make no sense, and where the second clause (about advantage on persuasions) makes even less sense. Crown of madness is an excellent example; what in it justifies you having a bonus to persuade them, when the spells fluff and other mechanics center around making the victim attack people compulsively?

And it's sloppy as heck to use it in geas; I can only assume it's meant to make sure that the victim can't turn on you for giving him this quest. Pity the spell does nothing to make him do anything proactive towards said quest.

In all, it's one of the worst-written and worst-used parts of 5e, and it's pervasive.

I think the reason those things cause charmed condition is so that things that make you immune to being charmed work against them.

[MaxWilson]

Has anyone brought up the point that the warlock may harm the thrall without breaking the spell (unlike charm person), while the thrall is powerless to harm the warlock?
That would give the warlock incredible leverage to enforce his will on the thrall.

See response in post #12. "Kill my friend."

=========================


Charmed is honestly overused, too, in spells where something by its name make no sense, and where the second clause (about advantage on persuasions) makes even less sense. Crown of madness is an excellent example; what in it justifies you having a bonus to persuade them, when the spells fluff and other mechanics center around making the victim attack people compulsively?

And it's sloppy as heck to use it in geas; I can only assume it's meant to make sure that the victim can't turn on you for giving him this quest. Pity the spell does nothing to make him do anything proactive towards said quest.

In all, it's one of the worst-written and worst-used parts of 5e, and it's pervasive.

It does incidentally lead to one of the best abuses of Geas. Instead of wasting time renewing Create Undead (9th level spell slot buys you three wights for 24 hours), high-level Necromancers can simply Geas the Wights (9th level spell slot buys you one wight, forever) and Mass Suggestion them (9th level spell slot buys you twelve wights for a year and a day) to act as minions. Technically I suppose Mass Suggestion ("serve me well and I will feed you souls when I conquer the world!") but the redundancy of Geas keeps you safer by not letting them attack you even if there's a loophole you missed.

Note: elementals aren't immune to charm either.

[Xetheral]

You just have to be creative with your commands and suggestions. Telling them "you should work for me now" can get you your lackey. If you want cash or items from stores just convince them that "partnering with me will be great for you". Convince them to stay away from things that could end the control by telling them such things are actually "methods to make you susceptible to being possessed".
You just have to be creative. Almost everything the Great Old One offers is best for things other than offense. Of the three patrons it's the weakest for combat but has the best utility and out of combat uses.

Do you rule at your table that a successful persuasion check to convince someone that "you should work for me now" gives you a lackey? I'm skeptical that any table is that free with persuasion checks, but if you do, you do.

[Sigreid]

I think people underestimate how powerful it is. Combine the charm condition with the warlock's high charisma and the loyalty rules and in short order you will have a free thinking, fanatically devoted follower that you can communicate with at any time from any distance. And all you have to do is catch them asleep, knock them out, or buy them enough drinks that they pass out.

[Nemenia]

You just have to be creative with your commands and suggestions. Telling them "you should work for me now" can get you your lackey. If you want cash or items from stores just convince them that "partnering with me will be great for you". Convince them to stay away from things that could end the control by telling them such things are actually "methods to make you susceptible to being possessed".
You just have to be creative. Almost everything the Great Old One offers is best for things other than offense. Of the three patrons it's the weakest for combat but has the best utility and out of combat uses.

They're charmed and you have advantage on persuasion. That doesn't stop them from hating you. Commands do nothing, unless you're talking about geas, in which that isn't the point of this thread. and why would someone partner with you and just give you items and money? thats not persuasion, thats mind control. Create Thrall does not do that.

[Nemenia]

I think people underestimate how powerful it is. Combine the charm condition with the warlock's high charisma and the loyalty rules and in short order you will have a free thinking, fanatically devoted follower that you can communicate with at any time from any distance. And all you have to do is catch them asleep, knock them out, or buy them enough drinks that they pass out.

The loyalty rules are optional and meant for followers that already like you. Secondly, it gives you advantage on social checks. In no way does this make them "fanatically devoted" to you anymore than being decently good friends with someone. and they STILL don't even have to like you. This is a level 14 ability we're talking about. Not a second level spell or or feature.

[Nemenia]

Create Thrall is better than most of the abilities you listed. The only ones that beat it are the Druids (which is useless for the Warlock that gets the same ability at level 15), some of the Wizard abilities, the Rogue, the Sorc, and of course the Monk, who's level 14 ability is probably the best ability in the game.
Also, it is never a good idea to compare abilities of a single level when balancing. That isn't how balancing works. A level 14 Warlock should be comparable to the level 14 versions of other classes (and I don't think there are many that would consider the Warlock underpowered). Even if the ability was a useless ribbon like "You can ignore any nasty smell that isn't overpowering enough to impose penalties", it would be okay as long as you had previously received something great enough to warrant something worthless.
You would be better able to make a case for empowering Create Thrall by comparing it to the level 14 abilities of the other Warlock subclasses, except for the fact that Create Thrall is arguably the best of them.

I most certainly can compare them, and giving the "Charmed" condition permanently to one humanoid is most certainly NOT better than virtually any of them.

However, most importantly, I can compare them. 5e works within bounded accuracy and all classes recieve their ribbon powers and mechanical powers at the exact same rate, at the exact same time (except for fighters, who get alot of ASCI's). All of these are meant to be the same value and reached at the same time, and you can compare the other ones across the board with similar results. As for it being the best warlock subclass power, we have

Archfey: Once per short rest, charm or frighten a creature for 1 minute, and prevent it from seeing anything but itself, you, and a misty realm. This completely removes anything that fails the save out of the fight for 10 turns at the cost of your concentration. No, a charmed humanoid is not better.

Fiend: Per long rest. Remove a creature from the battle for one round and deal a whopping 10d10 psychic damage to it, a rarely resisted damage type. Combat oriented, yes, worse than a charmed humanoid, no.

[Giant2005]

all classes recieve their ribbon powers and mechanical powers at the exact same rate, at the exact same time

That is clearly untrue - all you have to do is take a cursory glance at the book to know that.

[MaxWilson]

I think people underestimate how powerful it is. Combine the charm condition with the warlock's high charisma and the loyalty rules and in short order you will have a free thinking, fanatically devoted follower that you can communicate with at any time from any distance. And all you have to do is catch them asleep, knock them out, or buy them enough drinks that they pass out.

Minion-collecting certainly is fun in 5E due to bounded accuracy, but everything the 14th level warlock is doing via Create Thrall to one creature which he caught asleep once, the 3rd level Bard has been doing all along via Enhance Ability to unlimited numbers of creatures. Plus, the Bard has the option to go for Persuasion and Deception Expertise.

Either Create Thrall is weak, or Bards are mega-strong. Choose your poison.


They're charmed and you have advantage on persuasion. That doesn't stop them from hating you. Commands do nothing, unless you're talking about geas, in which that isn't the point of this thread. and why would someone partner with you and just give you items and money? thats not persuasion, thats mind control. Create Thrall does not do that.

It doesn't, but it should. I think we agree on that.

[Nemenia]

That is clearly untrue - all you have to do is take a cursory glance at the book to know that.

Oh really? Well then let's do that shall we?

Level 6 subclass abilities, picked at random.

GooLock: Entropic Ward. You use a reaction to impose disadvantage and get advantage if it works. This: debuffs an enemy hitting you, and then buffs you.

Paladin Ancient: Aura of Protection (paladin ability). you and anyone near you gets buffs to saving throws. This: buffs you and nearby allies. seems comparable.

EK: Shocker. its an ASCI. If you want to look at the level 7 one, you can cantrip and then attack, which is a buff, but to be fair, i did say same levels, so disregarded.

DracSorc: You can add your charisma to a spell dealing damage based on your DA, and you can spend a SS to gain resistance. This is a double buff to you. also comparable.

Tempest Cleric: Cleric ability, another Channel Div, and you can now push things you do lightning damage too. an increase to a class ability and a buff.

So out of four randomly chosen classes, three are immediately similar. they all do two things, and are comparably strong, and combat related. I rest my case.

[georgie_leech]

Oh really? Well then let's do that shall we?

Level 6 subclass abilities, picked at random.

GooLock: Entropic Ward. You use a reaction to impose disadvantage and get advantage if it works. This: debuffs an enemy hitting you, and then buffs you.

Paladin Ancient: Aura of Protection (paladin ability). you and anyone near you gets buffs to saving throws. This: buffs you and nearby allies. seems comparable.

EK: Shocker. its an ASCI. If you want to look at the level 7 one, you can cantrip and then attack, which is a buff, but to be fair, i did say same levels, so disregarded.

DracSorc: You can add your charisma to a spell dealing damage based on your DA, and you can spend a SS to gain resistance. This is a double buff to you. also comparable.

Tempest Cleric: Cleric ability, another Channel Div, and you can now push things you do lightning damage too. an increase to a class ability and a buff.

So out of four randomly chosen classes, three are immediately similar. they all do two things, and are comparably strong, and combat related. I rest my case.

At 9th level, Casters get the ability to cast level 5 spells, Monks get to run up walls, Barbarians get... an extra weapon die on 5% of their attacks. Mastermind Rogues get the ability to tell if someone is smarter than they are. Yeah, there seems to be real attention paid to make sure everyone gets ribbons and not-ribbons at the same levels.

[Millstone85]

Well, it looks like this thread may have changed my mind.

Outside of the very specific scenario of the warlock being alone against a single humanoid opponent, durably charming an enemy is not going to have much of an effect on the fight. That enemy will attack the warlock's allies while other enemies attack the warlock. And that's before the AOE business.

On the social scene, having advantage on checks with a single humanoid will not accomplish any miracle, especially when the incapacitation requirement means they most likely start out hostile to you.

So the last potential neat thing about the feature is that, if the warlock already has an ally who trust them, this ally might be convinced to take a nap or let themselves be hypnotised so a permanent telepathic link can be established. At least it is flavorful.

[Nemenia]

At 9th level, Casters get the ability to cast level 5 spells, Monks get to run up walls, Barbarians get... an extra weapon die on 5% of their attacks. Mastermind Rogues get the ability to tell if someone is smarter than they are. Yeah, there seems to be real attention paid to make sure everyone gets ribbons and not-ribbons at the same levels.

I'm glad you felt the need to take those out of context to make them seem much worse than they are. Let's try that again.

Barbarians get an extra die on a critical AND increased rage damage on every hit, increasing their DPR by quite alot.
Monks get to move over ANY terrain, as long as they dont run out of movement before they finish. which by level 9 is about 45, assuming they havent used any spells and are one of the majority races that have 30 movement.

Each 9th level caster gets a 5th level spell and something else. Warlocks get another invocation, sorcs and wizards get another 4th level. etc

Mastermind can pick to learn about a person's wisdom, charisma, intelligence score, OR class levels, by simply talking to someone and their sneak attack damage goes up.

All seems reasonably even to me. Good job finding some more examples though.

[Sigreid]

The loyalty rules are optional and meant for followers that already like you. Secondly, it gives you advantage on social checks. In no way does this make them "fanatically devoted" to you anymore than being decently good friends with someone. and they STILL don't even have to like you. This is a level 14 ability we're talking about. Not a second level spell or or feature.

Sorry, I had assumed that people would be clever enough to use everything they say and do being interpreted in as favorable light as possible to work that loyalty rating up to 20.

Your point on the loyalty rules being optional is taken. It does depend on your DM allowing it to be as useful as I think it should.

[MrStabby]

Oh really? Well then let's do that shall we?

Level 6 subclass abilities, picked at random.

GooLock: Entropic Ward. You use a reaction to impose disadvantage and get advantage if it works. This: debuffs an enemy hitting you, and then buffs you.

Paladin Ancient: Aura of Protection (paladin ability). you and anyone near you gets buffs to saving throws. This: buffs you and nearby allies. seems comparable.

EK: Shocker. its an ASCI. If you want to look at the level 7 one, you can cantrip and then attack, which is a buff, but to be fair, i did say same levels, so disregarded.

DracSorc: You can add your charisma to a spell dealing damage based on your DA, and you can spend a SS to gain resistance. This is a double buff to you. also comparable.

Tempest Cleric: Cleric ability, another Channel Div, and you can now push things you do lightning damage too. an increase to a class ability and a buff.

So out of four randomly chosen classes, three are immediately similar. they all do two things, and are comparably strong, and combat related. I rest my case.

Are you really, honestly trying to say entropic ward is even close to being as good as aura of protection? Cha bonus to saves for potentially an entire party vs a limited use protection for one character?

Also I find it quite telling the classes you missed out. How about Valor bard? An extra attack is about the most powerful feature a class can get if it wants to fight. How does that compare with the hunter ranger ability? Or the frenzy barbarian? If you do chose to "rest your case" there it is not really a credible case. Even by cherry picking only 4 classes and one level you still end up with a bunch of abilities with a big disparity between them in terms of power.

[Nemenia]

Are you really, honestly trying to say entropic ward is even close to being as good as aura of protection? Cha bonus to saves for potentially an entire party vs a limited use protection for one character?

Also I find it quite telling the classes you missed out. How about Valor bard? An extra attack is about the most powerful feature a class can get if it wants to fight. How does that compare with the hunter ranger ability? Or the frenzy barbarian? If you do chose to "rest your case" there it is not really a credible case. Even by cherry picking only 4 classes and one level you still end up with a bunch of abilities with a big disparity between them in terms of power.

Maybe you should look at my other post in reply to his. and all of them provide a meaningful effect. Aura of Protection only works if everyone is within 10 feet of the Paladin. the ranged classes, rogue, and casters most likely WILL not be that close to the paladin when an affect goes off in combat, it will likely just be the other fighters and the paladin, so yes, circumstantially, it is similar, we aren't looking at the "perfect" example. Nor did I say all of them, I said the majority.

Also I would like to remind everyone this post isn't about the balance between classes, it's about the warlock's Create Thrall ability, try and focus on that.