Drow pursuit

[Daddison]

Playgrounders,

How aggressively would a typical drow gang chase down a PC party who has abducted one of them? This is on the surface at night. The party knocked one of the drow out, bound him, and are taking him back to the lord of a small town (appx. 50 people). This is on the edge of the mountains on one side and thick forest and a major river to the south.

The group has made it back to the keep already. Would the drow lay siege to the place?

Thoughts?

(thank you in advance)

[Boci]

For a regular drow warrior? A raid. 6-12 human deaths for the stolen drow. Max 20. For a priestess? Yeah, maybe a small siege.

[Gallowglass]

Playgrounders,

How aggressively would a typical drow gang chase down a PC party who has abducted one of them? This is on the surface at night. The party knocked one of the drow out, bound him, and are taking him back to the lord of a small town (appx. 50 people). This is on the edge of the mountains on one side and thick forest and a major river to the south.

The group has made it back to the keep already. Would the drow lay siege to the place?

Thoughts?

(thank you in advance)

well, a drow gang isn't going to lay siege to anything...

what is the motivation of the drow? Was this a generic surface raid? a training mission? How much trouble are they going to get in for returning short one drow? Does the captured drow have meaningful information that they might fear him leaking?

They aren't going to care about saving their comrade, they are going to care about covering their own asses and making sure the captured drow doesn't open his mouth about any long term plans.

So, they followed them back but couldn't ambush them before they got safe into their keep. If the captured drow has no intelligence and they won't get in trouble for being a man down when they go back to base, they cut and run. If they will get in trouble, they will probably try to kill a few humans then make up a good lie about how they lost the missing drow. If the drow has meaningful intelligence, they will stealth raid in and kill the captured drow before he can spill the beans. Easier than saving him.

[inuyasha]

What's said above is absolutely right, another thing to keep in mind is that Drow have a highly magical society. Many many Clerics and Wizards, they aren't just another NPC race, these guys are smart. They'll utilize invisibility, illusions, enchantments, teleporting magic, whatever is required to remove that captured member (using any definition of "remove" the higher-ups deem necessary)

[Daddison]

what is the motivation of the drow? Was this a generic surface raid? a training mission? How much trouble are they going to get in for returning short one drow? Does the captured drow have meaningful information that they might fear him leaking?

Apologies, I left a chunk of story out. Yes, the drow are actually contracted with a group of Illithid nobles to abduct magic users (divine/arcane) on the surface and bring them below. These drow were stumbled upon by the party as the party was investigating an old keep in the forest. This old keep is run by a necromancer who is letting the drow use it as a staging area for their surface operations in the province. The dungeons of this place are used as a holding area for the abductees until the Illithids can evaluate each prisoner to see if they are powerful enough to be taken below. Otherwise...well, they do what Illithids do....eat.

The group was just below the surface (at night) in a cave/tunnel system, investigating the keep, (with the necromancer as the target), when the drow were discovered on their way back into the underdark. A fight with this gang vs. the party took place sub-surface.

The group beat the drow back and the monk of the group subdued and bound one of them. They got out of the tunnels and began to head back to the small town (about 30 miles away) to deliver the drow to the lord of the province when they were again attacked by the drow group who had retreated underground and then tracked them on spiderback and ambushed them about 10 miles out of town. The group again managed to beat them back but took severe damage in the woods at night. They fled and made it to the keep at what would be about 3am.

They put the drow in a cell and decided to take a breather and nurse their wounds. That's where we left off and will start back up again.

Any ideas? I plan on them going back to the keep under orders of the lord (and well paid).

[Gallowglass]

Apologies, I left a chunk of story out. Yes, the drow are actually contracted with a group of Illithid nobles to abduct magic users (divine/arcane) on the surface and bring them below. These drow were stumbled upon by the party as the party was investigating an old keep in the forest. This old keep is run by a necromancer who is letting the drow use it as a staging area for their surface operations in the province. The dungeons of this place are used as a holding area for the abductees until the Illithids can evaluate each prisoner to see if they are powerful enough to be taken below. Otherwise...well, they do what Illithids do....eat.

The group was just below the surface (at night) in a cave/tunnel system, investigating the keep, (with the necromancer as the target), when the drow were discovered on their way back into the underdark. A fight with this gang vs. the party took place sub-surface.

The group beat the drow back and the monk of the group subdued and bound one of them. They got out of the tunnels and began to head back to the small town (about 30 miles away) to deliver the drow to the lord of the province when they were again attacked by the drow group who had retreated underground and then tracked them on spiderback and ambushed them about 10 miles out of town. The group again managed to beat them back but took severe damage in the woods at night. They fled and made it to the keep at what would be about 3am.

They put the drow in a cell and decided to take a breather and nurse their wounds. That's where we left off and will start back up again.

Any ideas? I plan on them going back to the keep under orders of the lord (and well paid).

Well... do you, at the DM, want them to question the drow in order to give them some information? Or is the drow prisoner an annoyance you didn't account for?

If its an annoyance, I'd have the party, when they wake up and go to question the drow, find the drow dead it its locked cell. They will find a drow crossbow bolt buried in his neck or evidence of an extremely poisonous spider bite. Something to indicate that the drow snuck in, past all their guards, all their defenses and killed the prisoner to keep them from questioning him.

That should really amp up the paranoia.

Otherwise, you could start the next session with the PCS waking up from a dead sleep to alarm bells and having to rouse themselves sans spells to deal with the drow raiding party that have snuck in. After some meaningful battle content, they beat the drow off again only to find that they have either freed or killed the prisoner and they have taken two humans with them and killed a third. A cook's apprentice and the duke's daughter are taken and the duke's vizier was killed while fending off the drow. Investigation will reveal that the Duke's daughter is a bard and the cook's apprentice is a magic blooded sorcerer without class levels. This can serve as their clue as to what the drow are doing (stealing magic blooded people) as well as giving them motivation to go after them.

[Boci]

If its an annoyance, I'd have the party, when they wake up and go to question the drow, find the drow dead it its locked cell. They will find a drow crossbow bolt buried in his neck or evidence of an extremely poisonous spider bite. Something to indicate that the drow snuck in, past all their guards, all their defenses and killed the prisoner to keep them from questioning him.

That should really amp up the paranoia.

I don't think that's good DMing. Whether its an annoyance or not, the PCs legitimately captured the drow, so the DM should not ignore the rules to screw them out of a potential information source.

[Gallowglass]

I don't think that's good DMing. Whether its an annoyance or not, the PCs legitimately captured the drow, so the DM should not ignore the rules to screw them out of a potential information source.

...ignore the rules?... what are you...

I'm basing that off the idea that the drow HAS no information for the PCs to find. Hence why I said "do you have information for them to get out of the drow." Otherwise, you are going to get two hours real time of the PCs doing their best armchair torture techniques only to find out that the drow has nothing new or interesting to tell them.

I guess that's good DMing.

[Boci]

I'm basing that off the idea that the drow HAS no information for the PCs to find. Hence why I said "do you have information for them to get out of the drow." Otherwise, you are going to get two hours real time of the PCs doing their best armchair torture techniques only to find out that the drow has nothing new or interesting to tell them.

I guess that's good DMing.

I still disagree. "The captive you wanted to keep alive is dead. Rolling? No, why would I need to do that?" is going to leave a sour taste quite a few PC's mouths.

If the drow has no information, skip forward a day, then tell them that they are convinced he has no information to offer them.

[Daddison]

I don't think that's good DMing. Whether its an annoyance or not, the PCs legitimately captured the drow, so the DM should not ignore the rules to screw them out of a potential information source.

He has limited information. He isn't one of those who are privy to the 'bigger picture.' They captured him more as evidence to take to the lord and say, "hey, what the hell!? There's drow running around in the woods!" All this guy would know is that there are Illithids involved and that he and his group were paid to abduct and take prisoners to the dungeons of this keep in the forest.

[Gallowglass]

He has limited information. He isn't one of those who are privy to the 'bigger picture.' They captured him more as evidence to take to the lord and say, "hey, what the hell!? There's drow running around in the woods!" All this guy would know is that there are Illithids involved and that he and his group were paid to abduct and take prisoners to the dungeons of this keep in the forest.

Well, if that's new information for the PCS (illithid, the drow motivation) then this would be a great opportunity to let them get that information. Heck the drow mercenary might even try to make a deal to give them the information for his freedom, after all, he is a mercenary.

To Boci's point, perhaps I'm misunderstanding. It sounded to me like the PCs handed the drow off to the duke and then wandered off to bed. If the PCs are keeping an active guard or are involved in protecting and watching the prisoner, then certainly you need to play it like an encounter and give them the opportunity to prevent the drow's execution.

If, however, it is like I took it and the PCs have divorced themselves from responsibility, then I disagree that you are somehow ignoring the rules by not... I don't know... rolling up the stats for the NPC guards and going off into a closet and running an encounter of your NPCs vs your other NPCs to see if the drow gets killed or not. But going back and rereading, you didn't really tell us what the PCs were doing, so I was assuming they weren't involved in the prisoner keeping.

[Boci]

If, however, it is like I took it and the PCs have divorced themselves from responsibility, then I disagree that you are somehow ignoring the rules by not... I don't know... rolling up the stats for the NPC guards and going off into a closet and running an encounter of your NPCs vs your other NPCs to see if the drow gets killed or not.

I'd say that is ignoring the rules. The drow still have a chance of failure don't they? And this is an achievement of the PCs capturing a drow (especially since we now know he does have limited information), even if they then handed it over. Now that said, an entire encounter is excessive, but a single roll off of drow stealth vs. guard perceptions seems fair enough. Likely the drow will have the advantage there.

[Kish]

I'd just like to say that "the drow can sneak into your keep and kill a prisoner completely undetected" is a precedent to think hard about whether you want to set. It could easily result in "and why are the PCs still alive, again?" being a credibility-straining question for most of the rest of the adventure.

[Gallowglass]

I'd just like to say that "the drow can sneak into your keep and kill a prisoner completely undetected" is a precedent to think hard about whether you want to set. It could easily result in "and why are the PCs still alive, again?" being a credibility-straining question for most of the rest of the adventure.

This is described as a "small town of 50 people" meaning the duke has, what? 3 guards? 4?

I find it credibility straining that the drow, generally portrayed as uber-powered stealth assassins that stealth assassins lay awake afraid of, would have any trouble sneaking in to assassinate a prisoner. In my opinion, the entire point would be to show how over-their-heads and out-of-their-league the duke's guards are and why they so desperately need the special PCs to step up to handle the problem.

But I'm willing to accept that your vision of this imaginary world is different than the vision I'm seeing based on the OP's posts.

I'm not willing to accept that it is "bad DMing" for the DM to decide outcomes for NPC vs NPC interactions when there is no interaction from the PCs. That's ridiculous. The OP described that the drow have been ambushing and taking prisoners magic users for several days now before the PCs got involved. Do you imagine that he rolled some kind of dice for each of those interactions because "the drow had a chance to fail"? That's ridiculous.

Besides, reducing the interaction down to a roll of the guards perception/spot (hilariously, not a class skill in most warrior classes that work as guards) to the drow's stealth (likely with invisibility) is a roll that the drow probably win even when they roll a 1 (because natural 1s don't fail on skill rolls) so its the same as a no roll.

It would probably be a better interaction though, if the guards were able to sound an alarm to give the PCs a challenge.

The more I think about it, though, the more i'm sure the PCs didn't just drop off the drow to the cell then take off. I certainly have never had a PC group do that when they cared about keeping the prisoner. It seems likely that my initial impression about that was wrong. And as long as there is SOME PC interaction here, it certainly should be handled as an encounter.

[Boci]

I'm not willing to accept that it is "bad DMing" for the DM to decide outcomes for NPC vs NPC interactions when there is no interaction from the PCs. That's ridiculous. The OP described that the drow have been ambushing and taking prisoners magic users for several days now before the PCs got involved. Do you imagine that he rolled some kind of dice for each of those interactions because "the drow had a chance to fail"? That's ridiculous.

The difference there is that those magic user kidnappings didn't involve nullifying a success/achievement of the PCs, which is a big difference.

[Daddison]

For the record -

1. Yes the PCs are still guarding (in turn, along with a couple of local rangers) this drow captive who is still unconscious.

2. They will interrogate I'm sure and I want them to, for the simple fact that this drow captive can produce information that they do not yet fully understand. This would involve the necromancer and his minions as well as what he may have heard from his comrades about the Illithids.

This brings me to my next question: What are the rules/rolls involved in an interrogation situation like the one that is imminent? Is it Intimidate rolls or Bluff vs. Sense Motive rolls or what? This group is one that would resort to violence, if necessary to get information. How to run that, if it happens?

[Boci]

For the record -

1. Yes the PCs are still guarding (in turn, along with a couple of local rangers) this drow captive who is still unconscious.

2. They will interrogate I'm sure and I want them to, for the simple fact that this drow captive can produce information that they do not yet fully understand. This would involve the necromancer and his minions as well as what he may have heard from his comrades about the Illithids.

This brings me to my next question: What are the rules/rolls involved in an interrogation situation like the one that is imminent? Is it Intimidate rolls or Bluff vs. Sense Motive rolls or what? This group is one that would resort to violence, if necessary to get information. How to run that, if it happens?

Book on vial darkness had information on torturing information out of captive. Its an intimidation check, so its an opposed roll off, 1d20+ PC's intimidation mod vs. 1d20 + the drows 's character level + wisdom modifier + any modifiers the target has against fear. If the PC wins, the drow divulges one piece of information. For actual torture, they can use daggers, inflicting 2d4 damage on him, but giving them a +4 bonus to the check. I would personally half this to +2, since Drow of the Underdark says at least some drow males are masochists, trained to endure physical abuse as a way to impress drow females.

If the drow wins, they may choose to remain silent, or they can try and give false information. To do this, they roll bluff vs. the interrogators sense motive, if they win, the interrogators believes the information to be truthful. To reflect torture's unreliable reputation, the interrogator takes a -3 penalty to their sense motive roll.

Anything else you need? How much HP does the drow have? Will 2d4 matter that much?

[Daddison]

Anything else you need? How much HP does the drow have? Will 2d4 matter that much?

2d4 won't hurt him too bad. He's a CR6 or so. I don't officially have him on paper yet.

[TheYell]

If I were the drow, and somebody busted into my domains, beat my ass twice, actually captured one of us, and was about to find out everything about our plans, and was holed up in " a small town (appx. 50 people)." 30 miles away...

I'd slaughter that town. Burn it to the ground and kill everything in it. :smallfurious:

Figure it takes them a day to get set, and then they swarm the walls with spiders carrying ropes and climb in after them.

Figure on them sending a stronger force than the last one you just beat.

[Kyberwulf]

First off.. Beat the drow off again? ... .Giggity!

Second. It's not ignoring the rules or bad Gming to have things happen off screen.

I think you are projecting. It might or might not leave a bad taste.. who cares. What happens off screen with the npcs is the prerogative of the dm. Rolls or no rolls is up to him.

[Boci]

2d4 won't hurt him too bad. He's a CR6 or so. I don't officially have him on paper yet.

Okay, you could even increase the damage, maybe allow them to get the full +4 bonus for using daggers if they inflict 4d4 damage per question. 4d4 should add up, especially if he occasionally resists answering. Sounds like they'd need 3 successes to get all relevant information:

Why are you here?
Who hired you?
How strong is your raiding party?

Anything else?


Second. It's not ignoring the rules or bad Gming to have things happen off screen.

Things happening off screen isn't ignoring the rules, but drow auto succeeding in killing a prisoner offscreen is generally ignoring the rules. Its bad DMing because its sends the message to your PCs that they should never trust NPCs, they cannot rely on them, that they must do everything themselves. Sometimes that may suit the feeling of the game you're going for, but generally you'll want the PCs to at least be willing to hand off prisoners to NPCs.


I think you are projecting. It might or might not leave a bad taste.. who cares.

That's bad as well. Just because you can doesn't mean you should with no regard for how your PCs will feel.

[Elder_Basilisk]

Question 1 for the drow: do they have a reason to care about the guy who got left behind.

A. If these are classic drow in the RA Salvatore mold, then they only care about the captive's fate if he impacts their progress in some way. Was he the child of an influential noble and therefore important to the house? Was he necessary for success in future missions? And if future missions fail, who is going to get blamed?

I can see a rescue attempt if the drow gang/house is weak enough that they can't accomplish their goals without him or if he is politically influential back in the drow city. If he's the leader, on the other hand, then the guy who's going to take the blame for their failure is the one who is conveniently missing. And if he's not required for success, hire an orc or quaggoth or something and split the reward fewer ways. Lie, say he was killed, and go on with stabbing each other in the back like drow do.

B. Now, are they worried about what he might tell the PCs or other local baron? If he really doesn't know anything useful there's no reason to kill him. If he does, they should consider whether they can just move to a different cave and change the password. I presume that they're not trying to keep the surface in the dark about there being drow in the area at all. If they were, they would have to kill everyone who had seen him.

C. If they do kill him, can they also stop speak with dead. A simple poisoned crossbow bolt in the neck isn't really good enough. They should cut out his tongue or burn the body to ashes if they can manage it.

D. How hard is it really to kill him? If the PCs have dragged him to the baron of a small town of 50 people, what kind of town and world is it? Are most people low level NPC classes and the town in a relatively non-threatening part of the world? If so, evading a couple War 1 or War 2 guards and killing or rescuing the drow should be fairly easy. (And going back to A, if it's easy, the drow might choose rescue in order to gain leverage over the captured drow later). On the other hand, if the town of 50 people is a tough frontier settlement where the local baron is a 12th level cavalier and the 50 people are his party members and followers who have a couple skirmishes with raiding humanoids every month and the prisoner is held in a well thought out stone cave/dungeon, then rescuing the prisoner is hard, and killing or just abandoning him is a more likely option.


2. As to the other concerns:
A. The PCs' captured him fair and square, they should have the chance to get some info out of him.
The PCs also turned him over to the local baron fair and square too. If the local baron is Barney Fife with one deputy, an unloaded gun, and a wood-walled jail cell like in a spaghetti western, the drow can bust him out/kill him fair and square too. Lesson for the PCs: if you want to interrogate a prisoner, do it yourself and if you want to hold a prisoner, make sure the guards and prison setup are effective/competent.

B. If he shows up dead, it sets up a problem: why don't the drow just assassinate the PCs when they get troublesome? Again, it goes back to 1D above. Presumably they don't because the PCs are competent and take precautions to prevent being assassinated in their sleep while the guards on the prisoner were not competent and did not have the skills or take the precautions to prevent their prisoner from being rescued/killed on their watch. Also, nothing says the drow won't try to assassinate the PCs. Really, in most adventures they should and the prisoner being assassinated/rescued should serve as foreshadowing that lets them know to be prepared for such things.

C. It's bad DMing for it to happen automatically off-screen. Only if it's out of the drow's capabilities. In general, I think DMs should make most things that happen off-screen automatic. In my Red Hand of Doom game, there was a battle between the baron of Drellin's Ferry and his militia vs the remnants of the Black Knife goblin tribe who had been driven from their lands by the Red Hand. I thought about where and why and how it would happen based on their abilities, but I didn't roll it out and there was certainly no call for me to have it happen on-screen with the players running various NPCs and militia units. If the PCs are not in the area when it happens, it should happen off-screen. That's not bad DMing. Now, on the other hand, if the PCs take precautions to watch the prisoner themselves or provide for his defense then that should definitely be taken into account. If the PCs are there, roll it out. If the PCs are not there, give their precautions the appropriate chance of success.

3. Torture the prisoner? Well a lot of players, myself among them, would find amateur Jack Bauer/Reservoir Dogs theatre of the mind unpleasant, and something that does not belong in a fun activity. If you fall into that category, then say so. Roll an intimidate check and say, "OK he talks" or "he dies before you can get anything useful out of him." On the other hand, he is a drow. It's not like he's going to have lots of loyalty to his companions or his employers. So, it probably shouldn't take torture to make him talk. Have him say, "what do you have to offer me?" and have him work out a plan that ensures the PCs hold up their end of the bargain. He wants to escape with his life--and ideally with his equipment but that's probably not in the cards, maybe he can get a dagger out of the PCs--and if that means selling out his companions, hey, he's Chaotic Evil. No problem there. If anything, he'll want to make it seem like he knows more than he does so that he can cut a better deal. He might even make things up.