Lantern Dragonette - Kobold Press's 5e Tome of Beasts

[DracoKnight]

So I got the Tome of Beasts today, and the Lantern Dragonette (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B66RprYE6_HHV0JjUGxXbXVfX1E/view?usp=sharing) in particular caught my eye. I was thinking that these little guys would be devilishly fun familiars for a Warlock of Undying Light who made a Pact of the Chain. It looks to be about on par with - or maybe weaker than - the pseudodragon...what are the thoughts of the Forum??

EDIT: and how does it compare to the imp/quasit/sprite?

[Arkhios]

Pseudodragon (PD), Lantern Dragonette (LD)

PD AC: 13
LD AC: 13

PD HP: 7
LD HP: 28

PD speed: 15 ft., fly 60 ft.
LD speed: 15ft., fly 40 ft.

PD Bite: +4 to hit (4 damage)
LD Bite: +3 to hit (3 damage)

PD saves: none
LD saves: three

PD skills: 2 skills
LD skills: 5 skills

PD special (sting): 4 damage + unconscious; DC 11
LD special (spells): burning hands (7 damage), scorching ray +5 to Hit (7 damage); DC 13

PD Challenge 1/4
LD Challenge 1/2


ok... that's enough for me to say that Lantern dragonette is, in my opinion, leagues stronger than pseudodragon...

[DracoKnight]

ok... that's enough for me to say that Lantern dragonette is, in my opinion, leagues stronger than pseudodragon...

Okay, maybe, but:


AT WILL: PD special (sting): 4 damage + unconscious; DC 11
ONCE PER DAY: LD special (spells): burning hands (7 damage), scorching ray +5 to Hit (7 damage); DC 13

Does that clarification even it out?

[Arkhios]

Does that clarification even it out?

I dunno, maybe? Maybe not. I'd be personally a bit iffy about letting someone use that as a familiar. Maybe, if you encounter one such creature in the wilds and make a deal with it, but not via Find Familiar + Chain Pact.


I mean, if you compare the abilities with 3-rounds average calculation (as with calculating CR)

Sting x 3 = 12 damage. Average = 4 damage/turn.

Burning hands + scorching ray + bite = 17 damage. Average = 5,67 damage/turn.

PD < LD.

[NNescio]

I dunno, maybe? Maybe not. I'd be personally a bit iffy about letting someone use that as a familiar. Maybe, if you encounter one such creature in the wilds and make a deal with it, but not via Find Familiar + Chain Pact.


I mean, if you compare the abilities with 3-rounds average calculation (as with calculating CR)

Sting x 3 = 12 damage. Average = 4 damage/turn.

Burning hands + scorching ray + bite = 17 damage. Average = 5,67 damage/turn.

PD < LD.

Eh, it's far less useful than the Imp or Quasit, who get opposable thumbs and at-will Invisibility (Imp notably can see in Magical Darkness and has fire immunity). Even less useful than the Pseudodragon, I'd say, since the PD effectively has 18 passive perception.

I mean, sure, it's the most combat capable, but since chainlock familiars don't scale, you'll be mostly using them for utility anyway.

This is all assuming variant familiar rules aren't in effect, which blows the Lantern Dragonette completely out of the water.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I dunno, maybe? Maybe not. I'd be personally a bit iffy about letting someone use that as a familiar. Maybe, if you encounter one such creature in the wilds and make a deal with it, but not via Find Familiar + Chain Pact.


I mean, if you compare the abilities with 3-rounds average calculation (as with calculating CR)

Sting x 3 = 12 damage. Average = 4 damage/turn.

Burning hands + scorching ray + bite = 17 damage. Average = 5,67 damage/turn.

PD < LD.
So... a vanishingly small damage advantage over a single encounter in a day, which even then is mostly likely overshadowed by the pseudodragon's poison? Yeah, that's pretty meaningless. And compare it to, say, the Quasit, which can do 10 damage a turn if the target fails its save, has a crapton of resistances, and can shapechange. Or the Imp, which has an even nastier poison and invisibility. Both are CR 1. The Lantern Dragonette may have a slight advantage over the Pseudodragon in terms of skills, but that's by far the weakest of the three options. You're fine using it as a familiar.

[Shining Wrath]

The one thing that stands out is the 4x advantage in hit points. At low and mid levels that makes using your familiar to grant the rogue Sneak Attack or for things like "fly through the battle and pull the lever" a lot more feasible. In fact, at L1 the LD can tank in a pinch - that one battle your first day out where the party has two people down making stabilization rolls. Then being able to hit the enemy with Burning Hands and stand and fight an orc for two rounds while someone casts Cure Wounds on the fallen could be huge.

At higher levels, that advantage becomes much less important.

Therefore, my DM ruling would be "OK from L5 onward". YMMV.

[NNescio]

The one thing that stands out is the 4x advantage in hit points. At low and mid levels that makes using your familiar to grant the rogue Sneak Attack or for things like "fly through the battle and pull the lever" a lot more feasible. In fact, at L1 the LD can tank in a pinch - that one battle your first day out where the party has two people down making stabilization rolls. Then being able to hit the enemy with Burning Hands and stand and fight an orc for two rounds while someone casts Cure Wounds on the fallen could be huge.

At higher levels, that advantage becomes much less important.

Therefore, my DM ruling would be "OK from L5 onward". YMMV.

Well, you can only get the chainlock familiar at Lvl. 3 (or later, if you multiclass), and the Imp/Quasit/Sprite gets to use Help while being invisible (and the Imp and Quasit are somewhat tanky even with low hit points because they have resistance to non-magical physical damage), so...

But yeah, the Lantern Dragonette has waaaaay too many hitpoints for a tiny CR 1/2 creature. Some Large CR 1 creatures have even less hitpoints than it (Lion only has 26, for example) Seriously, 8 hit dice, what were they thinking?

[Shining Wrath]

Well, you can only get the chainlock familiar at Lvl. 3 (or later, if you multiclass), and the Imp/Quasit/Sprite gets to use Help while being invisible (and the Imp and Quasit are somewhat tanky even with low hit points because they have resistance to non-magical physical damage), so...

But yeah, the Lantern Dragonette has waaaaay too many hitpoints for a tiny CR 1/2 creature. Some Large CR 1 creatures have even less hitpoints than it (Lion only has 26, for example) Seriously, 8 hit dice, what were they thinking?

Thanks, I wasn't thinking about when Warlocks get their pact when I wrote that.

Still, a standard L3 Warlock has (8 + 2x5) + (3xConMod) HP, so probably 21 or 24; the familiar is still roughly as durable as the character.

[RickAllison]

So... a vanishingly small damage advantage over a single encounter in a day, which even then is mostly likely overshadowed by the pseudodragon's poison? Yeah, that's pretty meaningless. And compare it to, say, the Quasit, which can do 10 damage a turn if the target fails its save, has a crapton of resistances, and can shapechange. Or the Imp, which has an even nastier poison and invisibility. Both are CR 1. The Lantern Dragonette may have a slight advantage over the Pseudodragon in terms of skills, but that's by far the weakest of the three options. You're fine using it as a familiar.

This comment made me laugh a little too hard, because there are four options. You forgot sprite. Though I suppose it is telling that it is so weak an option that it doesn't even get considered :smallbiggrin:

[NNescio]

This comment made me laugh a little too hard, because there are four options. You forgot sprite. Though I suppose it is telling that it is so weak an option that it doesn't even get considered :smallbiggrin:

Well it does have invisibility and opposable thumbs, which may be your only option as a Chainlock if you don't like consorting with fiends, and Heartsight can be useful as a makeshift Evildar.

But yeah, it sucks. Even the invisibility sucks if your DM allows intelligent speaking familiars to use wands and other magic items (because it ends when the sprite casts a spell, despite the sprite not knowing how to cast any spells, unlike the Imp and Quasit).

[DracoKnight]

So the general assumption I'm getting is that it should be fine as a PotC familiar. :smallsmile:


But yeah, the Lantern Dragonette has waaaaay too many hitpoints for a tiny CR 1/2 creature. Some Large CR 1 creatures have even less hitpoints than it (Lion only has 26, for example) Seriously, 8 hit dice, what were they thinking?

I'm pretty sure that they followed the monster creation guidelines in the DMG. Actually, looking at those, they have less than monsters are expected to have at CR 1/2.

[SharkForce]

Well it does have invisibility and opposable thumbs, which may be your only option as a Chainlock if you don't like consorting with fiends, and Heartsight can be useful as a makeshift Evildar.

But yeah, it sucks. Even the invisibility sucks if your DM allows intelligent speaking familiars to use wands and other magic items (because it ends when the sprite casts a spell, despite the sprite not knowing how to cast any spells, unlike the Imp and Quasit).

wasn't there a recent clarification that using a magic item is not the same as casting a spell? :)

edit: base HP is a starting point for determining CR. not an end point. flight + ranged attacks, higher than expected AC, and abilities that generally improve survivability can increase defensive CR beyond what base HP would suggest.

[DracoKnight]

wasn't there a recent clarification that using a magic item is not the same as casting a spell? :)

edit: base HP is a starting point for determining CR. not an end point. flight + ranged attacks, higher than expected AC, and abilities that generally improve survivability can increase defensive CR beyond what base HP would suggest.

Which creature are you referring to??

[NNescio]

wasn't there a recent clarification that using a magic item is not the same as casting a spell? :)

Alright, if you cast a touch spell through your familiar instead then, because "your familiar can deliver the spell as if it had cast the spell". The same verbiage allows a spell attack (if delivered through the familiar) to be made at advantage if the target creature cannot see the familiar (despite using the familiar's master's spell attack modifier), but it also means breaking Invis for the Sprite (but not the Imp or Quasit).

This will probably come up more often.


wasn't there a recent clarification that using a magic item is not the same as casting a spell? :)

edit: base HP is a starting point for determining CR. not an end point. flight + ranged attacks, higher than expected AC, and abilities that generally improve survivability can increase defensive CR beyond what base HP would suggest.

And the Lantern Dragonette has all that on top of its ludicrous HP, especially when compared to other CR 1/2 creatures, so...?

[DracoKnight]

And the Lantern Dragonette has all that on top of its ludicrous HP, especially when compared to other CR 1/2 creatures, so...?

The Lantern Dragonette also has some pretty decent weaknesses...

[NNescio]

The Lantern Dragonette also has some pretty decent weaknesses...

Vulnerability to Magical Darkness is niche and wouldn't even be considered as part of the calculations for defensive CR.

In any case, I would like to reiterate my point that the Lantern Dragonette isn't out of the line for a Chainlock familiar (especially when compared to the Imp), but its HP is way, way out-of-the-line for a CR 1/2 tiny creature (that is, my problems isn't with houseruling it to be a Chainlock familiar as is, but that it is under-CRed), with flight, above-average ACs for its level, and some strong 1/day offensive spells. A pair of these (or even just one really, since it can open with Scorching Ray) can decimate a level 1~2 party.