Spell Selection - Tempest Sorcerer

[Oramac]

I just hit 8th level on my Tempest Sorcerer in Adventure League (Tempest 2 / Storm 6). So I get to learn one more spell, and I'm torn on which spell to learn.

Mostly I'm a blaster, but I do use control/buffing/healing spells relatively often.

Current spells:

Cantrips: Ray of Frost; Thunderclap (Sword Burst b/c of stupid AL rules); Light; Shocking Grasp; Control Flames; Mending; Guidance; Spare the Dying

1st: Fog Cloud; Thunderwave; Bless; Healing Word; Create/Destroy Water; Guiding Bolt; Chromatic Orb; Shield

2nd: Shatter

3rd: Lightning Bolt; Counterspell; Hypnotic Pattern

I'm currently looking at choosing one of three spells: Haste, Banishment, or Greater Invisibility. Just looking for thoughts/pros/cons from the community here.

Haste: good for Twinning on melee, but the extra action can't be used to cast spells.

Banishment: good save or suck, should be Twinnable, but is it the best option?

G-Invis: twinnable for advantage on all attacks. But how many things have blindsight/truesight/tremorsense/etc at higher levels?

[Degwerks]

Well it looks like you're a 2nd level tempest cleric and 6th level storm sorcerer, total of 8 levels right? So going by what you've posted you can't learn a 4th level spell, but you have 4th lvl slots to fuel lower spells. So bearing that in mind, it kinda narrows down your choices a bit.

[NecroDancer]

I'd suggest fly because of its versitity (and I think it can be twinned)

[Oramac]

Well it looks like you're a 2nd level tempest cleric and 6th level storm sorcerer, total of 8 levels right? So going by what you've posted you can't learn a 4th level spell, but you have 4th lvl slots to fuel lower spells. So bearing that in mind, it kinda narrows down your choices a bit.

I had this discussion last night with the DM and other players. Sorcerers can "learn spells for which you have spell slots". Class level is irrelevant.

You are correct that I can't use the Cleric spell list, however. The spell must be on the Sorcerer spell list.

[Rysto]

I had this discussion last night with the DM and other players. Sorcerers can "learn spells for which you have spell slots". Class level is irrelevant.

That is incorrect. The rules for multiclassing trump the wording of the spells known rules in the Sorcerer section. Note that the Cleric and Wizard have identical wording regarding only being able to prepare/learn spells for which you have spell slots.

[Saggo]

I had this discussion last night with the DM and other players. Sorcerers can "learn spells for which you have spell slots". Class level is irrelevant.

You are correct that I can't use the Cleric spell list, however. The spell must be on the Sorcerer spell list.

Pg 164: "You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class."

You will only know spells that level 2 Cleric and separately a level 6 Sorcerer would know.

[Oramac]

Pg 164: "You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class."


The Spells Known column of the Sorcerer table shows when you learn more sorcerer spells of your choice. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots.

I have 4th level slots. Ergo, I can know 4th level spells.

But really, whether I can know them or not is irrelevant. The DM has already said I can.

I'm just here to discuss the pros/cons of the 3 spells mentioned in the OP.

[Rysto]

I have 4th level slots. Ergo, I can know 4th level spells.

Literally every spellcasting class other than the Warlock uses an identical wording. You and the DM have misread the rules in a way that badly breaks the balance of the game.

[Oramac]

Literally every spellcasting class other than the Warlock uses an identical wording. You and the DM have misread the rules in a way that badly breaks the balance of the game.


I'm just here to discuss the pros/cons of the 3 spells mentioned in the OP.

[Saggo]

I have 4th level slots. Ergo, I can know 4th level spells.

But really, whether I can know them or not is irrelevant. The DM has already said I can.

You have 4th level slots when multiclassed only. Per the multiclass rules I just cited, quite clearly, your single-classed level 6 sorcerer only has 3rd level slots and so you could only learn up to level 3 spells. Class levels are definitively relevant, you have bad information.

As far as I understand it, that's not something you should be able to do in AL.


I'm just here to discuss the pros/cons of the 3 spells mentioned in the OP.

Haste and Greater Invisibility are pretty comparable.

Low AC (relative to your level) 3 attacks will have better DPR than 2 attacks with advantage. At relatively high ACs, 2 attacks with advantage is higher. The end result is that you won't likely see a difference in DPR for either.

Defensively, Greater Invisibility is better. You can use both the advantage of unseen attacker and the disadvantage of unseen target (equivalent to 4-5 AC) simultaneously, and a lot of spells simply don't function if they can't see you (like Magic Missle). Haste is 2 AC and gives a free Disengage or Hide as needed but at the cost of additional DPR.

Greater Invisibility has better utility, but it's hard to quantify. Being invisible trivializes a lot of scenarios.

Haste, on the other hand, has more combat round scenarios that you will benefit from. The only time it's not actively applying a buff is if you don't make an attack, don't dash, aren't being hit with an attack roll at all, and you're being observed so you can't hide. Unlike Greater Invisibility, which only provides a buff if you're trying to hide, making an attack role, or are being attacked.

You also have more spell slots to use with Haste. Greater Invisibility may have better quality defense and utility, but it's being used half as often. The net benefit to the entire adventuring day depends on your campaign. And Haste is legal.

[Oramac]

You have 4th level slots when multiclassed only. Per the multiclass rules I just cited, quite clearly, your single-classed level 6 sorcerer only has 3rd level slots and so you could only learn up to level 3 spells. Class levels are definitively relevant, you have bad information.

Saggo: Thank you. That is a concise, easy to understand explanation.

Everyone else: See, this is how you explain something. Not just saying "you're wrong" and leaving. Before now, not one person brought up the fact that a 6th level sorcerer doesn't have 4th level slots, which I had missed.


Haste and Greater Invisibility are pretty comparable.

snip

Haste it is. My main concern with Haste, however, is that the spell text specifies that the extra action can be used for (one weapon attack only). I take this to mean that I can't use it to cast a second spell, which greatly diminishes its benefit to me (though it's obviously still useful on a melee character).

[Corran]

It would be very helpful if you could tell us what your metamagic options (I see twinned spell is taken, but what is your other metamagic?) and your group composition is.

Gr invisibility and haste, both work great with twinned, but the value of each buff is greatly determined by how your allies would be able to profit from these spells. For example, haste would be perfect for, say, a GWM barbarian, who has a very strong attack and has already a way of getting to attack with advantage (reckless attack), while greater invisibility is AEWSOME on a melee rogue, who will be able to attack with advantage and use his bonus action to hide afterwards (cunning action). So what is your group composition? You should also consider the possibility of not being a target of those spells, if you have allies that could profit more from them.

As far as banishment (and similar save spells that target more creatures if upcast), I am of the opinion that generally it is better to upcast them rather than twinning them, to involve more targets. And with your set up (cleric2/sorcererX from what I understand), you will always have spell slots for which you dont have known spells (yeah, I agree with everyone else on this), so for multiclass full caster buils, such spells (like banishment) tend to work great as they are the best options for upcasting. Extra points for banishment if you have heightened spell. And a definite pick, but maybe you should delay it if gr invisibility or haste would work well on your allies. So what is your group comp?:smalltongue:

ps: Mentioned it above as well, the way you are playing this (spells known) goes against RAW (or at least against my reading of RAW). But since this is somewhat besieds the point I wont duel on it.

[Saggo]

Thank you.
You're welcome.


Haste it is. My main concern with Haste, however, is that the spell text specifies that the extra action can be used for (one weapon attack only). I take this to mean that I can't use it to cast a second spell, which greatly diminishes its benefit to me (though it's obviously still useful on a melee character).

You're right, Haste won't let you cast another spell. Self-buffing is double-edged, especially since both spells require your full action. From the looks of it, you're going for big thunder/lightning spells that use saves. Neither spell will buff what I assume your primary tactic will be. Both will help you defensively, but Greater Invisibility will only help if you're being actively targeted by attack rolls or spells. Haste will let you Disengage or Dash if that's the case, and it will let you pull out a Light Crossbow or Sling for a bit of extra DPR or Hide immediately after casting.

The real money, though, is putting Haste or Greater Invisibility on 2 martials. Start with Haste, by the time you're Sorcerer 8 you can have all 3 spells, including Banishment for critical crowd control. 2nd Level Invisibility can help you with out of combat utility in the mean time.

[Oramac]

It would be very helpful if you could tell us what your metamagic options (I see twinned spell is taken, but what is your other metamagic?) and your group composition is.

snip

Excellent point. The group is somewhat fluid depending on who show up, but there's usually a Shadows Monk, Devotion Paladin, another Sorcerer (draconic), and a Hunter Ranger.

Casting it on the Monk would probably be best, I think. Possibly with Twin on the Paladin.

And yes, I've realized I was wrong.

[KorvinStarmast]

If I could sum up a few of the points above ....
Spell Slots Available
1st...2d......3d......4th
4.......3.......3.........2
Spells Known and Prepared.
Quotes are from the book.

You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-*‐‑classed member of that class

The Spells Known column of the Sorcerer table shows when you learn more sorcerer spells of your choice. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots.At that level, the highest slot is 3, per the table for Sorcerer
Cleric(2)

You prepare the list of cleric spells that are available for you to cast, choosing from the cleric spell list. When you do so, choose a number of cleric spells equal to your Wisdom modifier + your cleric level (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots. (At 2 the highest is 1st, per the table for cleric)

The nice thing about MC is that you can cast some of the spells you know, be they cleric or sorcerer, using 4th level slots for the 1st, 2d, or 3d level spell. Example: your Thunderwave can be cast using a 4th level slot to get a bit more damage for that casting. Or, a first level healing spell can be cast using a 4th level slot. You could just enjoy that boon, or choose to apply your sorcery points to create another eth level slot. Since you'll have 6 points at 6th level, you could make one more 4th level slot for a max of 3 4th level slots on a given day.

Best wishes. Sounds like you are having fun.